fix/nerf Healing Springs stacking from same caster
Mystrius_Archaion
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I recently found out this skill, unlike any other ground place AoE, stacks with itself from the same caster.
That makes it too powerful and forces content to be designed around it so that enemies need to hit harder and brings us more effects that ignore resistances and shields and more one-shots, which encourages instant cast large emergency shields. It's more powerful than Refreshing Path by over 50% strength and can be stacked with itself while Refreshing Path cannot and just replaces the original cast. Grand Healing could be stacked to over 5000 healing per second easily, stronger than the templar healing ultimate Rite of Passage that roots them and stronger than the psijic skill Meditate that also roots and both preventing any other action and preventing block while Healing Springs is instant so doesn't stop block.
This needs to be fixed to behave like all other ground placed AoEs and not stack from one player so that we can have content rebalanced to be more forgiving to random groups of different composition and knowledge of the game.
We don't want to have "cheesing" groups being the only ones completing content regularly/at all because they know how to use a specific skill, contrary to similar abilities and logical behavior, to overpower the content and require the content to be balanced around an overpowered group.
FYI, this thread is based on insistence by @Lightspeedflashb14_ESO that Healing Springs/ Grand Healing can stack with itself from the same caster, because I have not tried to self-stack Healing Springs to know this and he said so. Blame him if I'm completely off on how it works if it truly doesn't stack with itself from the same caster.
Edited by Mystrius_Archaion on October 7, 2018 7:13AM That makes it too powerful and forces content to be designed around it so that enemies need to hit harder and brings us more effects that ignore resistances and shields and more one-shots, which encourages instant cast large emergency shields. It's more powerful than Refreshing Path by over 50% strength and can be stacked with itself while Refreshing Path cannot and just replaces the original cast. Grand Healing could be stacked to over 5000 healing per second easily, stronger than the templar healing ultimate Rite of Passage that roots them and stronger than the psijic skill Meditate that also roots and both preventing any other action and preventing block while Healing Springs is instant so doesn't stop block.
This needs to be fixed to behave like all other ground placed AoEs and not stack from one player so that we can have content rebalanced to be more forgiving to random groups of different composition and knowledge of the game.
We don't want to have "cheesing" groups being the only ones completing content regularly/at all because they know how to use a specific skill, contrary to similar abilities and logical behavior, to overpower the content and require the content to be balanced around an overpowered group.
FYI, this thread is based on insistence by @Lightspeedflashb14_ESO that Healing Springs/ Grand Healing can stack with itself from the same caster, because I have not tried to self-stack Healing Springs to know this and he said so. Blame him if I'm completely off on how it works if it truly doesn't stack with itself from the same caster.
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Kurat✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭This is the main heal for healers. It supposed to be strong. What else they are supposed to use, BoL? Wtf dude. There's nothing wrong with it. This forum is full of nerf demands. Enough already.35 -
Mystrius_Archaion✭✭✭✭✭
✭This is the main heal for healers. It supposed to be strong. What else they are supposed to use, BoL? Wtf dude. There's nothing wrong with it. This forum is full of nerf demands. Enough already.
Maybe they could rebalance so that other heals are useful, like the reason they nerfed Refreshing Path to have no damage.
I made this thread for 2 reasons:
1) Healing Springs doesn't behave like any other similar skill. It is a HoT spammable, essentially, which is not supposed to work that way.
2) I'm tired of being forced into "meta builds" to do content. I want more options.
We don't need content to be balanced around "you must spam Healing Springs or you don't get a group spot". That's just boring and not fun.2 -
Tonturri✭✭✭✭✭This is the main heal for healers. It supposed to be strong. What else they are supposed to use, BoL? Wtf dude. There's nothing wrong with it. This forum is full of nerf demands. Enough already.
There's this thing out there called Blessing of Restoration, actually. Pretty sad it never sees any use. Now, it IS the main heal for healers, but don't say it like it's some sort of...hard, unchangeable truth that shall never be touched out of respect.
C'mon now, let's be realistic. It's the main heal because it's currently the most efficient option. It's the main heal because it's strong, not the other way around.2 -
Nightingale707✭✭✭Well... In experienced group with experienced players it is actually not the main heal. The best heal in the game at the moment is energy orbs, they float through the group for 10 secounds and in a lot of fights that is all you need.
Healing springs is great for certain situations, where group get constant high damage over a long period of time and can stack up.
Healing springs spam will never help you against a one-shot.
Mostly if you see a healer spamming a lot of springs either the healer or the group is inexperienced with the content. Or the situation requires it. But the more you heal the more you will learn mechanics and to anticipate incoming damage and act accordingly.
So no, springs don´t need a nerf. It would just lock more mediocre groups out of doing harder content.10 -
Kurat✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭This is the main heal for healers. It supposed to be strong. What else they are supposed to use, BoL? Wtf dude. There's nothing wrong with it. This forum is full of nerf demands. Enough already.
There's this thing out there called Blessing of Restoration, actually. Pretty sad it never sees any use.
Every healer I know uses its morph combat prayer and tries to keep it up at all time.
Also to OP. You are not forced to use it. Warden has skill called budding deeds. It's even stronger aoe heal and cheaper too. You can use that instead of springs.
Or you can use whatever you like. As long as you buff your group and keep them alive who cares. If you don't like something that doesn't mean it should get nerfed. You think it's too strong, go heal pug trial or pug vet dungeon. If you got good experienced group then other than trials you don't even need a healer.3 -
Maryal✭✭✭✭✭
✭No more nerfs. I am not a healer but there are times I stack vigor and refreshing path and pop a health regen pot !!! I say let the heals stack ... and ... let them eat cake!1 -
Mystrius_Archaion✭✭✭✭✭
✭Nightingale707 wrote: »Well... In experienced group with experienced players it is actually not the main heal. The best heal in the game at the moment is energy orbs, they float through the group for 10 secounds and in a lot of fights that is all you need.
Healing springs is great for certain situations, where group get constant high damage over a long period of time and can stack up.
Healing springs spam will never help you against a one-shot.
Mostly if you see a healer spamming a lot of springs either the healer or the group is inexperienced with the content. Or the situation requires it. But the more you heal the more you will learn mechanics and to anticipate incoming damage and act accordingly.
So no, springs don´t need a nerf. It would just lock more mediocre groups out of doing harder content.
"Mediocre groups" don't even know you can stack it with itself likely. I am not a "mediocre player" and research skills thoroughly to find the easiest way for me to complete content, but the tooltip on Healing Springs doesn't say it can stack. I didn't even know it could until very recently.
One-shots were implemented because of strong healing. Sustained damage can never exceed healing or content would be impossible. That healing from skills like Healing Springs spam is so strong that it required something to encourage other strategies and gearing, like resistance and shields and block, so we got one-shots. It doesn't stop them because it is the reason they exist.
It just needs to work intuitively like everything else and then content needs to be adjusted if this really was balanced around.
After all, if "mediocre groups need Healing Springs to complete content" then it needs to be rebalanced to not be required.Edited by Mystrius_Archaion on October 7, 2018 8:03AM0 -
Mystrius_Archaion✭✭✭✭✭
✭This is the main heal for healers. It supposed to be strong. What else they are supposed to use, BoL? Wtf dude. There's nothing wrong with it. This forum is full of nerf demands. Enough already.
There's this thing out there called Blessing of Restoration, actually. Pretty sad it never sees any use.
Every healer I know uses its morph combat prayer and tries to keep it up at all time.
Also to OP. You are not forced to use it. Warden has skill called budding deeds. It's even stronger aoe heal and cheaper too. You can use that instead of springs.
Or you can use whatever you like. As long as you buff your group and keep them alive who cares. If you don't like something that doesn't mean it should get nerfed. You think it's too strong, go heal pug trial or pug vet dungeon. If you got good experienced group then other than trials you don't even need a healer.
Refreshing Path is worse. That was the skill that really brought this about.
I like my nightblade the most of my characters right now. I also think all classes need equivalent options for every role.
It doesn't help me that wardens have that skill or that Healing Springs is "the only alternative". That's the very problem I posted this about. We're all pushed into "the meta build" and have few/no choices anymore.0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭This is the main heal for healers. It supposed to be strong. What else they are supposed to use, BoL? Wtf dude. There's nothing wrong with it. This forum is full of nerf demands. Enough already.
Exactly this as it would most certainly leave templars as the only practical healer.
OP has not provided any valid reasoning for their opinion on this matter outside that it makes it more challenging for them to kill others.
That is the point of heals. A well organized group that runs well together should be a challenge to kill.
Oh, FYI, target the healer, focus them down and it ends the healing springs.Nightingale707 wrote: »Well... In experienced group with experienced players it is actually not the main heal. The best heal in the game at the moment is energy orbs, they float through the group for 10 secounds and in a lot of fights that is all you need.
Orb heals stack as well. Just FYI.
The behavior or ground based DoTs and that of heals should follow the same exact rules. These heals are designed to stack and working as intended.Edited by idk on October 7, 2018 8:18AM1 -
Sinolai✭✭✭✭✭Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »We don't want to have "cheesing" groups being the only ones completing content regularly/at all because they know how to use a specific skill, contrary to similar abilities and logical behavior, to overpower the content and require the content to be balanced around an overpowered group.
Nerf the springs and PUGs have no hopes of completing content regularly
I have indeed seen some healers that cast only 1 spring at time and I have always told them to stack it. Instead of making it useless how about teaching people to play?
ps. Healing Springs is the favoured morph and "main heal" of healers due to it refunding its cost as long as it heals 4 targets (your dungeon group) making it a free spammable heal.Edited by Sinolai on October 7, 2018 9:10AM1 -
Lieblingsjunge✭✭✭✭✭
✭If healing springs get changed - I demand a change to the Master Staff's too. That extra stamina for blocking or dodge-rolling is proven to be quite useful, both in PvE and PvP. Changing healing springs, would render this staff completely, utterly useless.
Also. Healing springs are the main heal for PUG-groups and the likes. Personally, I prefer to heal with combat prayer / energy orbs. Because they offer something more than just heal.(Which is what a healer is supposed to do these days, lul).
But for energy orbs, you need Rank 9 undaunted. But how do you get Rank 9 undaunted if you can't complete the content, because your most efficient noob-friendly large aoe-stackable heal is rip?
There's already no consistency in the game regarding skills. Skills - even that work the same, scale with different CP. Some skills work with MaA, some skills work with Thaumaturge, but not MaA.
There already is 0 consistency in this game. Starting now - with something that's noob-friendly.. Isn't good imo.Ignorance is the greatest weapon of tyranny.
PC - EU.
Lieblingsjunge(AD) - Racechanged Argonian :< | AR 50 - No double AP or Bleakers involved |
Sits-On-Cacti(DC) - Problem?
Fail-With-Tail(AD) - Healing Springs-spammer :<
Tiny Liebs(EP) - Very Tiny. Also heals.
Lieblingsmädchen(DC) - Magplar is love.
The Dominàtrix(AD) - Chains, whip, whip, whip.
Fluffy Furball Kitten(DC) - Kittycat, meow.
Your Face(EP) - People make bad jokes about my name =(
Liebs-With-Trees(AD) - Male argo with a big tail :>
Officer/Sandwitch of Zerg Squad
My title: The Maneater, Destroyer of Maneuvers, Bane of Potatoes, she who devours them, The Black Hole, the humorless, first of her name.2 -
Lightspeedflashb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Op can only use one bar. That is what started this. He fails to mention this most of the time. This colors his opinions. Not that I blame him. This is a quote from him, explaining this..I can't properly use 2 bars because of bugs locking out skills and my own carpal-tunnel/arthritis damaged hands. I can't animation cancel properly either. I rely on one bar having things I can activate easily.
Another quote from that thread-.
I didn't know Healing Springs/Grand Healing did self-stack because no other ground AoE does and I use other weapons and skills mostly since I tend to solo hybrid or tank.
Lastly-No wonder group content goes from "easy" normal to "WTF, have to cheat to complete" veteran seemingly.Edited by Lightspeedflashb14_ESO on October 7, 2018 10:09AM4 -
LadyNalcarya✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭How are you supposed to survive things like Z'Maja's execute phase or poison phase of Serpent, then?
Just stop with these nerf calls, seriously.Dro-m'Athra Destroyer | Divayth Fyr's Coadjutor | Voice of Reason
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FakeFox✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Stacking Healing Springs is a essential mechanic in healing hard content. Nerfing it would not help anyone. In order to have more diversity other healing skills would need to be buffed/changed, to function on the same level. This means a reliable, placeable, strong AOE heal that ticks at least once every second. Currently we have not a single other skill in the game that does that and that is were the actual problem lies.EU/PC (GER) - Healermain since 2014 - 50305 Achievement Points - Youtube (PvE Healing Guides, Builds & Gameplay)3 -
Lightspeedflashb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Stacking Healing Springs is a essential mechanic in healing hard content. Nerfing it would not help anyone. In order to have more diversity other healing skills would need to be buffed/changed, to function on the same level. This means a reliable, placeable, strong AOE heal that ticks at least once every second. Currently we have not a single other skill in the game that does that and that is were the actual problem lies.
Energy Orbs ticks every half second, so it can almost out the same amount of healing. The problem with that skill though is it is ~25% more expensive. Leading to sustain problems. I don't believe that grand healing is a problem and think it is just fine though.1 -
Mystrius_Archaion✭✭✭✭✭
✭Stacking Healing Springs is a essential mechanic in healing hard content. Nerfing it would not help anyone.
"Healing Springs stacking is required"
That's a problem. That means it is overpowered compared to everything else. It either needs a nerf or everything else needs to be buffed and probably also content also nerfed to be doable without it.
You just reinforced my point.Edited by Mystrius_Archaion on October 7, 2018 11:57AM0 -
Lieblingsjunge✭✭✭✭✭
✭Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »Stacking Healing Springs is a essential mechanic in healing hard content. Nerfing it would not help anyone.
"Healing Springs stacking is required"
That's a problem. That means it is overpowered compared to everything else. It either needs a nerf or everything else needs to be buffed and probably also content to nerfed to be doable without it.
You just reinforced my point.
It doesn't need a nerf. The other skills need to be changed or buffed to actually provide the same easy-to-use-easy-to-get aoe heals. Don't forget that healing springs is the first resto skill you unlock, whereas e.g. undaunted orbs are Rank 9(?) and Combat Prayer is the 3rd skill you unlock. + it requires your DDs to not stand on each side of the boss. And it requires aiming. Not very newbie-friendly there.
There really isn't any option, except healing springs, to complete the dungeons as a healer that's just starting out.
Edit: Healing Springs is also the skill that enables all classes to have a shot at being a healer. A Dragonknight doesn't reallyhave a lot of in-class healing abilities compared to magden/templar... But they're still good healers.
Nightblade as well - best passives for healing - but no real in-house class-healing skills. They'd rely on resto staff/springs.Edited by Lieblingsjunge on October 7, 2018 11:58AMIgnorance is the greatest weapon of tyranny.
PC - EU.
Lieblingsjunge(AD) - Racechanged Argonian :< | AR 50 - No double AP or Bleakers involved |
Sits-On-Cacti(DC) - Problem?
Fail-With-Tail(AD) - Healing Springs-spammer :<
Tiny Liebs(EP) - Very Tiny. Also heals.
Lieblingsmädchen(DC) - Magplar is love.
The Dominàtrix(AD) - Chains, whip, whip, whip.
Fluffy Furball Kitten(DC) - Kittycat, meow.
Your Face(EP) - People make bad jokes about my name =(
Liebs-With-Trees(AD) - Male argo with a big tail :>
Officer/Sandwitch of Zerg Squad
My title: The Maneater, Destroyer of Maneuvers, Bane of Potatoes, she who devours them, The Black Hole, the humorless, first of her name.3 -
FakeFox✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »Stacking Healing Springs is a essential mechanic in healing hard content. Nerfing it would not help anyone.
"Healing Springs stacking is required"
That's a problem. That means it is overpowered compared to everything else. It either needs a nerf or everything else needs to be buffed and probably also content also nerfed to be doable without it.
You just reinforced my point.
Not really. I agree on the lack of diversity, however disagree on your solutions. Healing Springs are not necessarily overpowered in terms of healing capacity, nor is it too much incoming damage. It comes more down to how many mechanics work and what kind of positioning and movement they require.EU/PC (GER) - Healermain since 2014 - 50305 Achievement Points - Youtube (PvE Healing Guides, Builds & Gameplay)1 -
FakeFox✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »Stacking Healing Springs is a essential mechanic in healing hard content. Nerfing it would not help anyone. In order to have more diversity other healing skills would need to be buffed/changed, to function on the same level. This means a reliable, placeable, strong AOE heal that ticks at least once every second. Currently we have not a single other skill in the game that does that and that is were the actual problem lies.
Energy Orbs ticks every half second, so it can almost out the same amount of healing. The problem with that skill though is it is ~25% more expensive. Leading to sustain problems. I don't believe that grand healing is a problem and think it is just fine though.
Orbs are great for generally keeping up healing, however they are rather unreliable.EU/PC (GER) - Healermain since 2014 - 50305 Achievement Points - Youtube (PvE Healing Guides, Builds & Gameplay)1 -
Mystrius_Archaion✭✭✭✭✭
✭VIGOR stack too. Should it be nerfed too?
From the same caster? No?
No other heal-over-time can be stacked from the same caster on the same spot so that it multiplies the healing, other than Healing Springs.
Healing Springs is at least 50% stronger than Refreshing Path and a larger area with better placement control and also can stack.
Either Refreshing Path is stupidly underpowered(hell yes) or Healing Springs is overpowered(probably also).
They just need to design and balance consistently so that everything is a worthwhile choice we can use, but these developers haven't done so yet so I made this thread to point it out.0 -
Mystrius_Archaion✭✭✭✭✭
✭Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »Stacking Healing Springs is a essential mechanic in healing hard content. Nerfing it would not help anyone.
"Healing Springs stacking is required"
That's a problem. That means it is overpowered compared to everything else. It either needs a nerf or everything else needs to be buffed and probably also content also nerfed to be doable without it.
You just reinforced my point.
Not really. I agree on the lack of diversity, however disagree on your solutions. Healing Springs are not necessarily overpowered in terms of healing capacity, nor is it too much incoming damage. It comes more down to how many mechanics work and what kind of positioning and movement they require.
The point is other heals don't work the same and are weaker even if they did.
Refreshing Path is 1000 heal per second on my hyrbid/dps nightblade while the same character sees Healing Springs at 1500 heal per second. That's not fair especially when it's easier to place Healing Springs with its larger area and different placement mechanic.0 -
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