Support refuses to investigate or remove sexual harasser from guild on grounds that it's "voluntary"

Vez · October 2018

Glurin wrote: »

Vez wrote: »

Mr_Walker wrote: »

Op seems to be asking people agree with him/her whilst providing literally zero details other than "someone said something that hurt my feelings", which is amazingly subjective.

OP is asking to be able to manage the ranks of his guild like any guild leader on their own terms. That's something anyone would agree to. That is until murmurs of sexual harassment cause a bunch of reflexive chauvanists to pop out of the woodwork and scream "Totalitarian!", "Get a thicker skin!" and there's even a "you deserve more harassment for alleging harassment" up there. Hopefully, most of us see who the real triggered babies who have trouble managing their emotional outbursts are.

Well can you really blame people for wanting you to grow a thicker skin?

Yes. "Grow a thicker skin" is classic victim blaming. It's also entirely beside the point.

Glurin wrote: »

Look at how far people are taking this over nothing more than a dirty word or phrase on a guild member note. We don't even know the content of the note.

It's a bit rich to not know the content of the note in the same breath you're telling someone they're too sensitive to the content. It's also entirely beside the point.

They get to decide what offends them. They get to decide who is in their guild. That's not taking things "far". That's what everybody gets to do. You don't have to have someone in your guild that offends you. You don't have to have someone in your guild that makes puns that make you groan. You don't have to have someone in your guild that you don't want. Whether you're offended or not. Whether you just think they did something inappropriate. Or for no reason. Or any reason. You don't have to have someone in your guild. That's not far. FFS.

Glurin wrote: »

The guild leaders removed the note and changed available permissions to prevent it from happening in the future, but could not find out who did it. So they went to support and asked for the name or for support to remove that person from the guild themselves. Support, in response, said they can't help because it's outside their jurisdiction, essentially. Everything up until this point, as stated, is perfectly reasonable. Beyond that is where things get heated with people screaming sexual harassment and sexism and chauvinism and "ZoS doesn't care". All the way up to people claiming they're going to send the ACLU after them.

I didn't thoroughly read every single post in the thread - I skimmed some - but I didn't see anyone say the were going to send the ACLU after them? After whom? That's nonsensical. What would they even do? And to whom? What authority would the ACLU have? If this claim was made, it was obviously facetious. On it's face. Nobody made this claim. Not seriously at least. How could you even say this?

This is totally within the "jurisdiction" of support, or at least ZOS. The only question is whether ZOS can even determine who changed the note. No one is asking them to determine whether the offending note change is offensive. No one is asking anyone to adjudicate anything probative.

Glurin wrote: »

This thread could have been a humble request for some new or better tools for guild masters to better manage guild notes and discourage this kind of vandalism. I think you can at least agree that it ended up going in a very different direction.

This thread is a humble request for better tools. It predictably went in the direction it went because some awful people reflexively defend sexual harassment. That's on them.

Aesthier · October 2018

Vez wrote: »

This thread is a humble request for better tools. It predictably went in the direction it went because some awful people reflexively defend sexual harassment. That's on them.

No that is on the OP.

He did not make the request for such a tool in his post.

His initial post was nothing but a flame on ZoS for not fulfilling his initial request for special treatment beyond that which is provided to any other Guild Leader on the grounds that a member misused a tool, the OP provided access to, in order to commit sexual harassment.

Just because most of us would like such tools does not change the intent of the opening statement the OP made. If the OP had simply made a request "Guild Leaders need a Guild Tool that tracks member note changes" then perhaps this would be different however because the OP opened with the idea of sexual harassment and his opinion that support failed to do anything that is what most people responded to.

Maryal · October 2018

Aesthier wrote: »

Vez wrote: »

This thread is a humble request for better tools. It predictably went in the direction it went because some awful people reflexively defend sexual harassment. That's on them.

No that is on the OP.

He did not make the request for such a tool in his post.

His initial post was nothing but a flame on ZoS for not fulfilling his initial request for special treatment beyond that which is provided to any other Guild Leader on the grounds that a member misused a tool, the OP provided access to, in order to commit sexual harassment.

Just because most of us would like such tools does not change the intent of the opening statement the OP made.

agreed.

Vez · October 2018

Runs wrote: »

Vez wrote: »

Aesthier wrote: »

Vez wrote: »

Imperial_Voice wrote: »

Its a bit sad how many of you are asking ZoS to turn into the thought police and you know absolutely 0 details about what was even said. Youre just screaming for a ban based on the word of OP alone in a matter that should be policed within guilds.

This isn't anyone asking ZOS to be thought police. This has nothing to do with bans. You don't have any right to be in any particular guild. Guilds invite and accept you and police your participation on their own terms. That's definitional. Also, you don't get banned from the game when a guild removes you from their ranks. Obviously.

And it's worth noting here that this isn't merely the word of the OP as far as support is concerned. There is a textual record that support has access to. All the guild leader is asking is for support to tell them who used their guild tool to message the entire guild. That's something a guild leader should have access to on their own but they apparently don't. It's reasonable to ask support to fill that request and it's reasonable for support to do so.

It's also worth noting here that this isn't about the adjudication of an act of alleged sexual harassment and the OP isn't asking ZOS to step in and adjudicate that. This is about a guild choosing who its members are. No one is setting out to prove whether someone did something or whether that something amounts to a crime. The guild leader just wants to be able to tell who used a guild tool to do something that the guild has every right to decide is inappropriate for them.

^ All of that is entirely under the purview of the Guild Leader and NOT ZoS.

As such it is the Guild Leader's Responsibility as unfortunate as that may be to investigate and ensure they maintain the quality of player they seek.

Again Not ZoS's Responsibility.

If a Guild Leader cannot ensure the quality of its members then they should not allow those members access to tools that they might abuse and should limit the access of those tools to a lower population such as Officers by which the leader can limit such offenses. If a Guild Leader has not built the amount of relative trust associated with becoming an Officer with a player then that player simply shouldn't be allowed the position of Officer.

Again ^ Guild Leaders responsibility.

The guild leader doesn't have the tools to monitor comment changelogs. No one is asking ZOS to do anything but give them that tool.

OP is asking for ZOS to name the individual. Even by simply removing the player from the guild will expose who it was.

We're also assuming that harassment actually happened. Yes, I believe whatever was on the note was there. But it's just as possible the person edited their own note, no? Some people like guild drama, and will do anything to start it. Others like to play a victim even when they haven't been victimized. It's even within the scope of reason that someone could have done this to themselves to bring light the need for some badly needed guild improvements.

OP is asking ZOS to tell the guild leader who used a guild tool. This is not unreasonable. Guild leaders should get to know who is doing what with guild tools. This is something the guild leader has for very similar tools, like MOTD. If ZOS turned on tracking note change tomorrow, how would that be any different than them "naming the individual" who changed the MOTD?

I'm not assuming that sexual harassment happened, though I have no reason to doubt it. I'm assuming the guild leader wants to remove someone from their guild because they used a guild tool to do something the guild leader doesn't want people using that guild tool to do and the guild leader found it inappropriate - because the guild leader has said so!

Without having any knowledge of the content, the circumstances, or the people, it's a huge speculative leap to pre-suppose all the ways an alleged sexual harasser could be exculpated. Not even sure why you'd bother when sexual harassment is ENTIRELY BESIDE THE POINT. But "the victim was the real harasser all along!" is pretty gross speculation to bring up as your first and only hypothetical. And even if someone did change their own note for drama or whatever reason, that's nearly as good a reason as *** sexual harassment for the guild leader to know who did it - not that they need any reason at all. So that they could remove them from the guild. Or not! It's up to them! It's their *** decision.

Vez · October 2018

Aesthier wrote: »

Vez wrote: »

This thread is a humble request for better tools. It predictably went in the direction it went because some awful people reflexively defend sexual harassment. That's on them.

No that is on the OP.

He did not make the request for such a tool in his post.

His initial post was nothing but a flame on ZoS for not fulfilling his initial request for special treatment beyond that which is provided to any other Guild Leader on the grounds that a member misused a tool, the OP provided access to, in order to commit sexual harassment.

Just because most of us would like such tools does not change the intent of the opening statement the OP made. If the OP had simply made a request "Guild Leaders need a Guild Tool that tracks member note changes" then perhaps this would be different however because the OP opened with the idea of sexual harassment and his opinion that support failed to do anything that is what most people responded to.

His initial request was reasonable. ZOS wouldn't fill it. What else could he do?

People reflexively responded to the sexual harassment claim in awful ways because they're awful people. That is 100% on them and not on the OP.

Aesthier · October 2018

Since so many are requesting for a new tool to be created but those requests are buried under the premise of a bad thread I have created the request in a new thread separated from the OP's subject of contention and ensuing debate about sexual harassment as the request for a new tool should have originally been created.

It can be found here:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/439588/new-guild-tool-required-for-tracking-changes-to-member-notes/p1?new=1

Juhasow · October 2018

There should be separate premissions for members to edit just their own notes or the notes of other ppl. Problem solved.

Pops_ND_Irish · October 2018

I would have to agree with ZoS. If its a guild issue then let the guild handle it.
Some people are always going to be "tools". They will never change.
They use a great game like this to show how ignorant they are by hiding behind a game to harass good people.

dengodadegen · October 2018

So...A guy said " suck my argonian" and i tought it was childish and dismissed it, another dude in my guild edited as it said that ive done enough skooma to endanger the whole khajit population and it was great constructive critic i liked. Now another guy called me a fanny bandit and thats where i got really mad and dueled him to lay it off, i lost and i became a fanny bandit with pride.

To be clear, is anythinng of this close to your problem?
If it's private stuff that was posted instead to just be made for harassment sake, just sniff the punk out and let zos handle it. If not private and nothing to go by like "he knows this member is girl or male" etc i would just drop it. No guild fails harder than when it gets dramatic *** like this and i can be honest, if this stuff poped up and i was in it i would run right out.

In the long run, i valued and value the leaders who look out for the guildies first and the bigger picture who is that we all enjoy to play together and as long as we do we play. It's like a family you choose and like to progress and do stuff with.. I hope you can solve this internally soon.

All the best

ZOS_JesC · October 2018

Greetings, we've decided to close this thread because the multiple discussions took place, were in violation of our forum rules. While we do not discuss disciplinary actions either here on the forums or in game, this matter was handled by our support team and the proper actions were taken. Reports of harassment in game and on the forums are taken very seriously, and we ask that you utilize the report systems provided so the right teams are able to investigate.