Root causation of nerfing??

SHADOW2KK · October 2018

Root cause of nerfing? hmmmm well....

Casuals who play the game for 5 mins and then think their opinion matters, they whine about it everywhere, ZoS as per usual panders to said casuals, game suffers as a result.

Or my personal favourite, ZoS for no apparent reason does what it wants anyways and to oblivion with anyone who remotely knows the game at theorycrafting levels, lies every so often about them playing their own game, when clearly they do not, as they would see the same crap as anyone else.

*drops mic

Grilled_Shroom · October 2018

The main reason for nerfs are people who are too lazy to learn to play the game as it is, stop crying about how hard things are and learn to get past it. I hate to think how these people get through a day in real life ! Spend a bit of time learning your class and others to counter them or mechanics if it's pve ( just threw up in my mouth). The player base is screwing itself crying for nerfs all the time.

Ri_Khan · October 2018

It's simple, ZOS gets feedback that somethings wrong so they look at the numbers. They see that everyone and their mom is running the same ez-mode build. They nerf it.

SirAndy · October 2018

boombazookajd wrote: »

It's impossible to blame one single thing

I blame ZOS, which according to US law is a person, which qualifies as "one single thing". So yes, i can ...

Aurielle · October 2018

I would argue that fragile egos are the primary cause of nerfs, TBH...

Freddycruz89 · October 2018

Just keep handing them your hard earned, real life money and be quiet. It's all about the money. Always has been and always has been.

Jaraal · October 2018

boombazookajd wrote: »

vMA was created with 300 Cps in mind, we are now what two and a half times more powerful than that now?

This is based on the false assumption of linear progress through the CP trees, when it is actually front loaded towards the lower end of the spectrum and provides diminishing returns with more points invested per passive.

zaria · October 2018

boombazookajd wrote: »

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

It's folly to equate causation with correlation.

More famously is the line "correlation does not imply causation", but it goes both ways.

I have no doubt that ZOS makes changes for the right reasons. It's just sometimes they either aren't entirely sure of the reason but need to make a change or they make a change because there is a problem, regardless of the reasons.

A causes B (direct causation);
B causes A (reverse causation);
A and B are consequences of a common cause, but do not cause each other;
A and B both cause C, which is (explicitly or implicitly) conditioned on;
A causes B and B causes A (bidirectional or cyclic causation);
A causes C which causes B (indirect causation);
There is no connection between A and B; the correlation is a coincidence.

That's the trap that ZOS finds themselves in. I blame the complexity of the system, but a non complex system isn't viable. The answer is always more testing, but that in itself isn't always prudent or possible.

What this guy(gal) said. It's impossible to blame one single thing. CP's have a lot to do with it, but so does the fact that none of the opponents we face in PvE have grown in difficulty.

vMA was created with 300 Cps in mind, we are now what two and a half times more powerful than that now? I breath on overland content and it dies.

PvP wise, two competent players can bash on one another for 10 minutes and end in a stalemate in CP campaigns.

ZoS has come to rely on one shots too frequently (the real source of healers being useless and the player base favoring extremely high dps groups).

vMA is still hard, just an faction of players has managed it.
ESO is very player skill based, far more than an game like WOW who is more gear based.
WOW gear level is a lot like ESO CP except that its from gear you farm from harder and harder content, still the gap from mediocre players to top is way less in WOW than in ESO.

Overland is trivial because of one tamriel, you have to make it so easy all can do it even the light attack brigade.

One shots is not new, it has been in the game from start but yes its getting more common. Again lazy mechanics.

Banana · October 2018

The good players are to good.

Geru77 · October 2018

Don't kid yourself, the majority of nerfs are because of degenerate pvp strategies. The few that arent are Devs wanting build diversity.

rfennell_ESO · October 2018

SirAndy wrote: »

boombazookajd wrote: »

It's impossible to blame one single thing

I blame ZOS, which according to US law is a person, which qualifies as "one single thing". So yes, i can ...

Technically we could blame Moonves (from CBS), he sits on the Zenimax board.

That would be an easy one!

Tyreal1974 · October 2018

The nerf's happen because ZOS seems to have difficulties with balancing new items with earlier content. If new items cannot be adjusted/fixed ZOS feels the need to change everything else to make the new thing still viable... or call it a feature (looking at you animation canceling) and force feed it to everyone. While there will always be the need to revisit balancing skills/sets as new content arrives it would be nice if the dev's would take a more subtle approach when making changes versus making radical adjustments which has happened several times since I have been playing.

Ashilda_Dragonheart · October 2018

SHADOW2KK wrote: »

Root cause of nerfing? hmmmm well....

Casuals who play the game for 5 mins and then think their opinion matters, they whine about it everywhere, ZoS as per usual panders to said casuals, game suffers as a result.

Or my personal favourite, ZoS for no apparent reason does what it wants anyways and to oblivion with anyone who remotely knows the game at theorycrafting levels, lies every so often about them playing their own game, when clearly they do not, as they would see the same crap as anyone else.

*drops mic

I'm a casual and I don't like the nerfs at all. I'm afraid they will make things harder for me. My main character is a sorc and just about level 50 with around 100 cp. I'm afraid the nerfs will effect my ability to complete more difficult content if I ever get that far.

DMuehlhausen · October 2018

MooseKnuckles88 wrote: »

So many people want to nerf skills, weapons, armor, and passives when champion points buff all of that yet ZoS keeps feeding the community another 30 cp every patch. How is the power creep not at least partially responsible for this?

Another thing is so much of the diverse skills, armor, weapons, and passives that we once had have already been shot down with the nerf gun causing the community to use more of the same skills, weapons, and armor that it's no wonder more and more people are dying from certain skills, because that's all that's left to be viable to use because everything else has been nerfed to oblivion. Yet we want more nerfs causing less diversity in the game? No wonder ZoS is ok with nerfing skills, that way they'll manipulate the community into depending on proc sets...

The Root? Is people want PvE and PvP t be balanced and it's impossible to do. It mathematically can't be done. PvE skills and items, which you use in PvP, are all based around killing mobs with millions of HP. PvP using the same items and skills is against people with 30k hp, or whatever. It doesn't add up and never will.

Ashilda_Dragonheart · October 2018

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

MooseKnuckles88 wrote: »

So many people want to nerf skills, weapons, armor, and passives when champion points buff all of that yet ZoS keeps feeding the community another 30 cp every patch. How is the power creep not at least partially responsible for this?

Another thing is so much of the diverse skills, armor, weapons, and passives that we once had have already been shot down with the nerf gun causing the community to use more of the same skills, weapons, and armor that it's no wonder more and more people are dying from certain skills, because that's all that's left to be viable to use because everything else has been nerfed to oblivion. Yet we want more nerfs causing less diversity in the game? No wonder ZoS is ok with nerfing skills, that way they'll manipulate the community into depending on proc sets...

The Root? Is people want PvE and PvP t be balanced and it's impossible to do. It mathematically can't be done. PvE skills and items, which you use in PvP, are all based around killing mobs with millions of HP. PvP using the same items and skills is against people with 30k hp, or whatever. It doesn't add up and never will.

I'm wondering why they didn't just add a completely different level up system for people playing PvP. For example, when you start PvP with a character you've leveled in PvE mode, you have to level your character again in PvP mode. This might be an awful idea, but I'm just throwing it out there for curiosity's sake.

DanteYoda · October 2018

PvP and Dummyhumpers.. pretty much.

Banana · October 2018

Yellow PVPers

SHADOW2KK · October 2018

DanteYoda wrote: »

PvP and Dummyhumpers.. pretty much.

Maybe you do not remember some PvE whiners who got Molag Bal and Doshia nerfed to the stage that a half dead aemoeba could kill them, there are whiners in both camps, who ruin the game for others.

I do not know nor care about your problem with PvP, but this is not the first time tonight I have seen your posts regarding PvP, do not like it, do not play PvP, but some of us do both, hell some of us do not whine about stuff and actually adapt.

Emmagoldman · October 2018

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

The root cause of nerfing is a person making a sub-optimal choice and that person wanting to punish people who made optimal choices rather than correct their own mistake so that they can preform better without making the effort to change their poor choice.

They are literally the socialists of MMO, crying from each according to their "play as you want" choices to each according to their "speed run" entitlements.

what? Socialism is the collectivization of labor and doesnt relate at all.

Its just a natural parr of game design.
A development team is small and limited in what they can test. The pts cycle is short and set to a release date, not to a "fully tested" date. This is before 10k plus people try out sets and real metas develop.

sometimes they negate any challenge or counterplay. The game should make you work, think and have challenge. Unless someone is a snowflake and doesnt want a challenge, then obertuned sets or skills arent an issue. Crutching on broken sets or skills reminds me of someone wanting free handouts or being fed with a silver spoon instead of working

Kiralyn2000 · October 2018

SHADOW2KK wrote: »

Root cause of nerfing? hmmmm well....

Casuals who play the game for 5 mins and then think their opinion matters, they whine about it everywhere, ZoS as per usual panders to said casuals, game suffers as a result.

Hardcores who think they're the center of the universe & that 'casuals' are the cause of everything bad.

(hint: most "casuals" don't even visit the forums; and they also aren't going to notice the nerfs because they don't play at a level where it has any effect.)

--

I've lived through rounds of "nerfs" in MMO after MMO, over more than a decade. I'm really amazed at how people are melting down on the ESO forums over something that's been a regular part of MMO gaming since forever.

SHADOW2KK · October 2018

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

SHADOW2KK wrote: »

Root cause of nerfing? hmmmm well....

Casuals who play the game for 5 mins and then think their opinion matters, they whine about it everywhere, ZoS as per usual panders to said casuals, game suffers as a result.

Hardcores who think they're the center of the universe & that 'casuals' are the cause of everything bad.

(hint: most "casuals" don't even visit the forums; and they also aren't going to notice the nerfs because they don't play at a level where it has any effect.)

--

I've lived through rounds of "nerfs" in MMO after MMO, over more than a decade. I'm really amazed at how people are melting down on the ESO forums over something that's been a regular part of MMO gaming since forever.

So many assumptions here about me.

1}, I am not a hardcore player, I play other games and ESO and have played ESO since beta, but I always adapt to the changes, some I like, some I do not, but been here since the beginning and will be here till the servers die, but having said that, ZoS does indeed listen to the casual element or players who have barely played the game at all and then panders to them, that is fact,

Most people never come here to the forums, yes, have said that many times in the pointless poll threads that pop up regularly.

And if you think I am melting down over the latest changes, then you are sadly mistaken, I am one of the rare breed in ESO who actually adapts the changes and still conquers as much as possible, without whining about it, definition of hardcore, no.

Nice try at patronising

Aesthier · October 2018

Do you want to know the root cause?

It is because unlike other games ESO does not add on a continual gear climb.

That means instead of progressing further and further up they have to find another way to introduce the carrot and stick method.

This method takes the form of introducing "new gear" which means old gear or skills that performed the best has to be tweaked so that the new gear can perform "better".

You may not see this because they may nerf skills months ahead of time or even a DLC ahead of time in preparation for the new gear to arrive at a later date.

Now add to that the idea that ZoS sometimes makes mistakes and has to retweak "nerf" certain abilities due to unforeseen synergistic effects one or two abilities provide setting users of those skills in conjunction with the new sets far ahead of any others.

^ And that is where Nerfs are born Timmy.

Anyone who thinks ZoS actually nerfs stuff that they had not already planned on tweaking, just because some PvP or PvE player is complaining is fooling themselves.

FR0STDEE · October 2018

See what you've done Zos. Causing all these arguments. Hope you happy now.

Lylith · October 2018

because they can.

icebladess · October 2018

vMA is still hard, just an faction of players has managed it.
ESO is very player skill based, far more than an game like WOW who is more gear based.
WOW gear level is a lot like ESO CP except that its from gear you farm from harder and harder content, still the gap from mediocre players to top is way less in WOW than in ESO.

Overland is trivial because of one tamriel, you have to make it so easy all can do it even the light attack brigade.

One shots is not new, it has been in the game from start but yes its getting more common. Again lazy mechanics.

At least it's not wow with the bfa issues

hakan · October 2018

you guys make too many assumptions and most of your reasons are very different than each other.

class reps go there with their collected info from various players but zos ends up doing completely different most of the time.

so blaming other "whiners" doesnt really makes sense. there were some exceptions of course.

munster1404 · October 2018

I blame good players

Ermiq · October 2018

Am I the only one who think the cause of all nerfs/buffs/balancing is the fact that this game is a MMORPG?
Every, I mean literally every MMORPG I've played, has exactly the same threads. All MMOs are about constantly nurfing/balancing things.
And every game forum has the rumors about the xxx game being a lot better and having no problems balance-wise.
This is really fun to read this thread.

PS: I also lmao reading all these different opinions. "Crying casuals are the cause!", "No, It's crying top-dps groups saying the game is too easy", "Meta-build PVPers are the cause!", "Casuals made wrong (not meta) build and they cry about that!".
Gosh... You're all are awesome, guys.

PPS: @Kiralyn2000 oh, looks like I'm not alone here.

JumpmanLane · October 2018

ak_pvp wrote: »

People say bad players cry that everything is OP. It's not, every game has them and the good devs generally ignore them and fix what is actually OP, as with everything there are clear overperforming things in ESO.

However, It's the fact Zos can't balance for ***. They create something stupid with no/too much counters, and then fix it by making it super strong/weak after. They only consider one side of the scale and make blanket messy nerfs/buffs based on the masses. They are not good devs, they do not consider good info from bad info. They do not rebalance things.

It’s because ZOS devs don’t play the game and if they do they don’t play it well.