Root causation of nerfing??

MooseKnuckles88

So many people want to nerf skills, weapons, armor, and passives when champion points buff all of that yet ZoS keeps feeding the community another 30 cp every patch. How is the power creep not at least partially responsible for this?

Another thing is so much of the diverse skills, armor, weapons, and passives that we once had have already been shot down with the nerf gun causing the community to use more of the same skills, weapons, and armor that it's no wonder more and more people are dying from certain skills, because that's all that's left to be viable to use because everything else has been nerfed to oblivion. Yet we want more nerfs causing less diversity in the game? No wonder ZoS is ok with nerfing skills, that way they'll manipulate the community into depending on proc sets...

VaranisArano

Of course! That way ZOS can release new powerful sets with each update so people will buy new content in order to be powerful again...

Wait, they've already been doing that since Horns of the Reach...

We're screwed, arent we?

zaria

MooseKnuckles88 wrote: »

So many people want to nerf skills, weapons, armor, and passives when champion points buff all of that yet ZoS keeps feeding the community another 30 cp every patch. How is the power creep not at least partially responsible for this?

Another thing is so much of the diverse skills, armor, weapons, and passives that we once had have already been shot down with the nerf gun causing the community to use more of the same skills, weapons, and armor that it's no wonder more and more people are dying from certain skills, because that's all that's left to be viable to use because everything else has been nerfed to oblivion. Yet we want more nerfs causing less diversity in the game? No wonder ZoS is ok with nerfing skills, that way they'll manipulate the community into depending on proc sets...

CP has strong diminishing returns. You don't get more attribute points past cp300. the various trees are also very front loaded so you spend the last 25 points getting 1% improvement on most.

Now in PvP CP is pretty strong as resistance is as important as offence and CP increases both and you get more out of your CP is spread out.

Wifeaggro13

MooseKnuckles88 wrote: »

So many people want to nerf skills, weapons, armor, and passives when champion points buff all of that yet ZoS keeps feeding the community another 30 cp every patch. How is the power creep not at least partially responsible for this?

Another thing is so much of the diverse skills, armor, weapons, and passives that we once had have already been shot down with the nerf gun causing the community to use more of the same skills, weapons, and armor that it's no wonder more and more people are dying from certain skills, because that's all that's left to be viable to use because everything else has been nerfed to oblivion. Yet we want more nerfs causing less diversity in the game? No wonder ZoS is ok with nerfing skills, that way they'll manipulate the community into depending on proc sets...

everyone thought it was wonderful when ZOS decieded it would follow a linear progression ruote. now its a boring homoginized system of no character advancment but completely gear dependent. hid behind the flavor of the patch set with a horrible RNG trait system . the CP system has not been touched since it was introduced, most MMO's post 4 years have several layers and some real definition to the Alternate advancement by this point. it wont make you superman in all areas but defines your character. this system just creates problems in PVP and PVE resulting in all the nerfs , and a rotating DPS meta. MMO 's inherently have this problem but not to this degree its extreme with ESO. as with all things they will take a bug and call it a feature and nerf the symptom instead of fixing the problem

AhPook_Is_Here

The root cause of nerfing is a person making a sub-optimal choice and that person wanting to punish people who made optimal choices rather than correct their own mistake so that they can preform better without making the effort to change their poor choice.

They are literally the socialists of MMO, crying from each according to their "play as you want" choices to each according to their "speed run" entitlements.

mikemacon

The root cause is hatred of sorcs.

True story.

profundidob16_ESO

the root cause is supple root !

http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Supple_Root

Reistr_the_Unbroken

I’d say can we separate PvP and PvE skills so nobody has to suffer due to the other’s nerf but that will never happen

ak_pvp

People say bad players cry that everything is OP. It's not, every game has them and the good devs generally ignore them and fix what is actually OP, as with everything there are clear overperforming things in ESO.

However, It's the fact Zos can't balance for ***. They create something stupid with no/too much counters, and then fix it by making it super strong/weak after. They only consider one side of the scale and make blanket messy nerfs/buffs based on the masses. They are not good devs, they do not consider good info from bad info. They do not rebalance things.

Cronopoly

It's clearly the SAWTOOTH effect of ZOS needing some improvement range to sell the always incoming next DLC.
Once they allow skills & stats to get out of control by their design mind you, they have to reel it back in for the Next DLC and the next. SAWTOOTH...

If the crown store was enough that would be one thing but it's not. Crown Store merch sales, DLC's and Subs. It's their 3 pronged revenue stream to pay the bills and have some good profit.

It's really not that complicated and has nothing to do with your class imo. It's Money.

FlyingSwan

It's caused by the fact that the developers are a bunch of cretins who could not manage a trip to the cornershop, let alone a manage a large game like ESO.

The entire progression system is a leaky bucket which ZOS shore up with the horrid and tacky proc sets, then when unskilled players moan about those (rather than think about counters), ZOS pander to the whine of the moment, rather than developing any vision for where they may take the game long-term. It really is embarrassing to see a grand intellectual property like The Elder Scrolls be owned and managed by a bunch of simpering halfwits who clearly got second rate degrees at bottom rung universities, and who would undoubtedly be fired within minutes if they took a job at a proper game developer.

I left the game for 18 months due to the colossal blunder that was the Morrowind nerfs, and it's STILL in the same torpid state. It's amazing really, 18 months of development and these imbeciles have managed to make the game go backwards. I'm going to wait on the consensus for Murkmire then may go back to FF XIV, which is a fine example of how to do these things properly.

OtarTheMad

I wouldn't be surprised if ZOS comes out with a different system completely and trashes the CP system before we even hit 3600 (or whatever the max is)

rfennell_ESO

It's folly to equate causation with correlation.

More famously is the line "correlation does not imply causation", but it goes both ways.

I have no doubt that ZOS makes changes for the right reasons. It's just sometimes they either aren't entirely sure of the reason but need to make a change or they make a change because there is a problem, regardless of the reasons.

A causes B (direct causation);
B causes A (reverse causation);
A and B are consequences of a common cause, but do not cause each other;
A and B both cause C, which is (explicitly or implicitly) conditioned on;
A causes B and B causes A (bidirectional or cyclic causation);
A causes C which causes B (indirect causation);
There is no connection between A and B; the correlation is a coincidence.

That's the trap that ZOS finds themselves in. I blame the complexity of the system, but a non complex system isn't viable. The answer is always more testing, but that in itself isn't always prudent or possible.

boombazookajd

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

It's folly to equate causation with correlation.

More famously is the line "correlation does not imply causation", but it goes both ways.

I have no doubt that ZOS makes changes for the right reasons. It's just sometimes they either aren't entirely sure of the reason but need to make a change or they make a change because there is a problem, regardless of the reasons.

A causes B (direct causation);
B causes A (reverse causation);
A and B are consequences of a common cause, but do not cause each other;
A and B both cause C, which is (explicitly or implicitly) conditioned on;
A causes B and B causes A (bidirectional or cyclic causation);
A causes C which causes B (indirect causation);
There is no connection between A and B; the correlation is a coincidence.

That's the trap that ZOS finds themselves in. I blame the complexity of the system, but a non complex system isn't viable. The answer is always more testing, but that in itself isn't always prudent or possible.

What this guy(gal) said. It's impossible to blame one single thing. CP's have a lot to do with it, but so does the fact that none of the opponents we face in PvE have grown in difficulty.

vMA was created with 300 Cps in mind, we are now what two and a half times more powerful than that now? I breath on overland content and it dies.

PvP wise, two competent players can bash on one another for 10 minutes and end in a stalemate in CP campaigns.

ZoS has come to rely on one shots too frequently (the real source of healers being useless and the player base favoring extremely high dps groups).

f047ys3v3n

2 root causes of nerfs.

1) Cheat engine
Zos continues to ignore that a huge number of their player base is running 3rd party cheat software allowing them to more or less max out all player statistics simultaneously. This makes them as tanky as a tank while hitting harder than any dps can legitimately hit all while sustaining with no difficulty. Ironically, most nerfs miss these cheat running players entirely as the nefs tend to impose trade offs rather than strictly limiting any one attribute and it is precisely trade offs the cheat engine eliminates. They cut resources by more than 30% last year as well as significantly decreased CP contribution to dps and players running cheats actually gained dps due to some other, comparatively fairly minor changes to light attacks. CE users are now about doubble the dps of non CE users of similar skill compared to only about 30% higher two years ago. The reason is basically nerfs that hit only non CE users. I'll tell you I am not hitting my pre-Morrowind numbers, even after going to a much higher DPS build and, due to the 2pc nature of staves, better gear. Why would I? I get significantly less dps increase from CP and have about 30% less resources.

2) The Wobbler
The Wobbler is really, really bad at his job. He insists on balancing PVP and PVE simultaneously instead of having abilities scale significantly differently in each despite the entirely different nature of combat in each. He thinks a 40% change in an ability's cost or effect is even remotely reasonable in an MMO. He seems to lack even the most basic understanding of how changes to one ability will effect particular common builds and interact with other simultaneous changes. He seems unwilling or unable to understand that lots of folks are cheating and this is having an effect on game balance. He seems to want every combination of class and resource to have equal ability at tanking, healing, DPS, and versatility.

Carl_Bar

f047ys3v3n wrote: »

2 root causes of nerfs.

1) Cheat engine
Zos continues to ignore that a huge number of their player base is running 3rd party cheat software allowing them to more or less max out all player statistics simultaneously. This makes them as tanky as a tank while hitting harder than any dps can legitimately hit all while sustaining with no difficulty. Ironically, most nerfs miss these cheat running players entirely as the nefs tend to impose trade offs rather than strictly limiting any one attribute and it is precisely trade offs the cheat engine eliminates. They cut resources by more than 30% last year as well as significantly decreased CP contribution to dps and players running cheats actually gained dps due to some other, comparatively fairly minor changes to light attacks. CE users are now about doubble the dps of non CE users of similar skill compared to only about 30% higher two years ago. The reason is basically nerfs that hit only non CE users. I'll tell you I am not hitting my pre-Morrowind numbers, even after going to a much higher DPS build and, due to the 2pc nature of staves, better gear. Why would I? I get significantly less dps increase from CP and have about 30% less resources.

2) The Wobbler
The Wobbler is really, really bad at his job. He insists on balancing PVP and PVE simultaneously instead of having abilities scale significantly differently in each despite the entirely different nature of combat in each. He thinks a 40% change in an ability's cost or effect is even remotely reasonable in an MMO. He seems to lack even the most basic understanding of how changes to one ability will effect particular common builds and interact with other simultaneous changes. He seems unwilling or unable to understand that lots of folks are cheating and this is having an effect on game balance. He seems to want every combination of class and resource to have equal ability at tanking, healing, DPS, and versatility.

Oh look, another person who thinks cheat engines can affect server side data.

Hint.. They can't.

rfennell_ESO

f047ys3v3n wrote: »

2 root causes of nerfs.

1) Cheat engine
Zos continues to ignore that a huge number of their player base is running 3rd party cheat software allowing them to more or less max out all player statistics simultaneously. This makes them as tanky as a tank while hitting harder than any dps can legitimately hit all while sustaining with no difficulty. Ironically, most nerfs miss these cheat running players entirely as the nefs tend to impose trade offs rather than strictly limiting any one attribute and it is precisely trade offs the cheat engine eliminates. They cut resources by more than 30% last year as well as significantly decreased CP contribution to dps and players running cheats actually gained dps due to some other, comparatively fairly minor changes to light attacks. CE users are now about doubble the dps of non CE users of similar skill compared to only about 30% higher two years ago. The reason is basically nerfs that hit only non CE users. I'll tell you I am not hitting my pre-Morrowind numbers, even after going to a much higher DPS build and, due to the 2pc nature of staves, better gear. Why would I? I get significantly less dps increase from CP and have about 30% less resources.

2) The Wobbler
The Wobbler is really, really bad at his job. He insists on balancing PVP and PVE simultaneously instead of having abilities scale significantly differently in each despite the entirely different nature of combat in each. He thinks a 40% change in an ability's cost or effect is even remotely reasonable in an MMO. He seems to lack even the most basic understanding of how changes to one ability will effect particular common builds and interact with other simultaneous changes. He seems unwilling or unable to understand that lots of folks are cheating and this is having an effect on game balance. He seems to want every combination of class and resource to have equal ability at tanking, healing, DPS, and versatility.

You can't make changes based on anomalies.

It can be argued that's what's occured.

I don't blame Wrobel, it's not fair to blame him. Firor should have been more hands on regarding these things and directing them. Wrobel does what he's told to do, he's not the vision of the game.

Jameliel

Untalented and lazy developers. Look at the "mechanics". Colored circles and messages on screen...woohoo...genius. Anyone who has played MMOs for more than a few years can see ESO development is garbage. Plain and simple. Make any excuses you want, but it's still true.

eso_nya

"endgame" pve has only two mechanics: oneshots and dps checks.
for the really good grps, who can pass the dps checks, the game will always be to easy (main difference between bossfight and dummy parsing is the background). for the suboptimal grps, who fail dps checks and thus have to bother with "mechanics" the game will always be insanely difficult.
this causes regular nerfs to sustain, survival and dps to keep it "intresting".

another cause for pve nerfs might be jerks who do grp content solo and than brag about how easy the game is xD

pvp nerfs r caused by "overperforming" things and the follow up videos showcasting them. "1vX" being one of the main reasons. its bad reputation to have vids floating around that basically say "look at this unbalanced game, u can easily fight and kill 10 other ppl w/o taking any dmg". those nerfs mostly target overperforming classes/skills.

the other reason for pvp nerfs is terribads cryharding about getting killed or being unable to kill in their "awesome" rp-builds. those nerfs mostly target gearsets or skills that r avaible to anyone.

"balance" otoh, is a very funny concept. afaik, most ppl consider the game perfectly balanced, when their chosen playstyle is overperforming and will refuse to accept that it is the class thats overperforming, and not them being a better player than anyone else.

[Deleted User]

Hello everyone,

Recently we've had to remove a few posts for some unneeded baiting, flaming and bashing, all being against the Forum Rules. For further posts let's try to keep this from becoming a argument between the PvE community and the PvP community.

Thank you for understanding.

spartaxoxo

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

The root cause of nerfing is a person making a sub-optimal choice and that person wanting to punish people who made optimal choices rather than correct their own mistake so that they can preform better without making the effort to change their poor choice.

They are literally the socialists of MMO, crying from each according to their "play as you want" choices to each according to their "speed run" entitlements.

An mmo video game is supposed to have more than optimal choice out of hundreds. It is the point and appeal to having so many different armor sets.

Ohtimbar

I think are two basic causes. 1) Unified PVE/PVP balance, which is an objectively terrible idea and 2) Keeping the hamster wheel spinning. The meta-chasing busywork fills a lot of hours very cheaply.

Nebthet78

MooseKnuckles88 wrote: »

So many people want to nerf skills, weapons, armor, and passives when champion points buff all of that yet ZoS keeps feeding the community another 30 cp every patch. How is the power creep not at least partially responsible for this?

Another thing is so much of the diverse skills, armor, weapons, and passives that we once had have already been shot down with the nerf gun causing the community to use more of the same skills, weapons, and armor that it's no wonder more and more people are dying from certain skills, because that's all that's left to be viable to use because everything else has been nerfed to oblivion. Yet we want more nerfs causing less diversity in the game? No wonder ZoS is ok with nerfing skills, that way they'll manipulate the community into depending on proc sets...

The direction this game is going with nerf after nerf and less and less diversity is the reason why I pretty much quit the game.
I only log in for the daily reward now, if there is something interesting enough and maybe to do something in my house, but other than that, I'm outright BORED!!!

starkerealm

zaria wrote: »

MooseKnuckles88 wrote: »

So many people want to nerf skills, weapons, armor, and passives when champion points buff all of that yet ZoS keeps feeding the community another 30 cp every patch. How is the power creep not at least partially responsible for this?

Another thing is so much of the diverse skills, armor, weapons, and passives that we once had have already been shot down with the nerf gun causing the community to use more of the same skills, weapons, and armor that it's no wonder more and more people are dying from certain skills, because that's all that's left to be viable to use because everything else has been nerfed to oblivion. Yet we want more nerfs causing less diversity in the game? No wonder ZoS is ok with nerfing skills, that way they'll manipulate the community into depending on proc sets...

CP has strong diminishing returns. You don't get more attribute points past cp300. the various trees are also very front loaded so you spend the last 25 points getting 1% improvement on most.

Now in PvP CP is pretty strong as resistance is as important as offence and CP increases both and you get more out of your CP is spread out.

19 points on the 25% stars. You're talking about the +15% stars, which are technically more numerous, but most people think of stuff like Master-At-Arms or Thaumaturge.

Even with those, you get +20% at 54 points, then need to spend the remaining 46 points to reach 25%. That's just not worth it.

Morgul667

Cp and gears are available to all classes

Im fine with older content being easier, i believe it is the way it should be

What zos should buff is the class that are behind in terms of dps / heal and if it beconss too hard to keep pve and pvp balanced , the. change some skills in pvp with battle spirit

Wifeaggro13

boombazookajd wrote: »

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

It's folly to equate causation with correlation.

More famously is the line "correlation does not imply causation", but it goes both ways.

I have no doubt that ZOS makes changes for the right reasons. It's just sometimes they either aren't entirely sure of the reason but need to make a change or they make a change because there is a problem, regardless of the reasons.

A causes B (direct causation);
B causes A (reverse causation);
A and B are consequences of a common cause, but do not cause each other;
A and B both cause C, which is (explicitly or implicitly) conditioned on;
A causes B and B causes A (bidirectional or cyclic causation);
A causes C which causes B (indirect causation);
There is no connection between A and B; the correlation is a coincidence.

That's the trap that ZOS finds themselves in. I blame the complexity of the system, but a non complex system isn't viable. The answer is always more testing, but that in itself isn't always prudent or possible.

What this guy(gal) said. It's impossible to blame one single thing. CP's have a lot to do with it, but so does the fact that none of the opponents we face in PvE have grown in difficulty.

vMA was created with 300 Cps in mind, we are now what two and a half times more powerful than that now? I breath on overland content and it dies.

PvP wise, two competent players can bash on one another for 10 minutes and end in a stalemate in CP campaigns.

ZoS has come to rely on one shots too frequently (the real source of healers being useless and the player base favoring extremely high dps groups).

i agree i too believe its just a cheap way to hide a vertical progression system. and charge permium prices for chapters and dlc's when there is no real meat to them or development other then creating leveling content with no levels. , honestly soft caps were a better solution then this half-finished system of passive increases. i think its evident that around 300 cp is where the ceiling is for mobs ability to damage you and your ability to produce it. even at diminishing returns an extra 3 % across the board on everything can make a huge impact in both PvE and PVP if you put them in the right places past that 300. at the end of the day i think ZOS is treating a symptom not the problem.

starkerealm

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

i agree i too believe its just a cheap way to hide a vertical progression system. and charge permium prices for chapters and dlc's when there is no real meat to them or development other then creating leveling content with no levels. , honestly soft caps were a better solution then this half-finished system of passive increases. i think its evident that around 300 cp is where the ceiling is for mobs ability to damage you and your ability to produce it. even at diminishing returns an extra 3 % across the board on everything can make a huge impact in both PvE and PVP if you put them in the right places past that 300. at the end of the day i think ZOS is treating a symptom not the problem.

I think it's a better solution than most of the alternatives. It is a vertical progression system.

It could be better, but having it account wide does wonders for opening the game up to alts, in a way a lot of MMO don't permit.

I agree, it could be a far more interesting system, and the spending cap is a, "kludgy" solution to deal with players who grind excessively. So, maybe there's an element of "the devil you know," here, but I do like the system more than I dislike it.

ihazzit

There is no correct answer, although it might have something to do with cake.

ccfeeling

They keep to nerf something they created rofl .

DanteYoda

CP should have stopped at 160.. And all content should have been balanced around that level..

madarame_77

DanteYoda wrote: »

CP should have stopped at 160.. And all content should have been balanced around that level..

And what would be the point of continuing playing? We need to have some sense of progression. Otherwise capped players will just stop playing after several months.