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Razor Shot should be bleed damage, not poison
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Minno✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Ok, I'm gonna explain it again, so some of the guys who are afraid of another OP bleed can understand (it's a bow for Talos' sake, no twin blade and blunt here):
1- Scatter Tooltip at 10K dmg is halved by BS (so now it hits for 5k)
2- Then the mitigation reduces that dmg again around a 30% (so now it hits for 3.5K)
3- The sets does 40% of the dmg done in 3 ticks of 4 seconds, for 1.4k each. The duration is increased by distance
4- Now, with the poison dmg change, each tick will be again halved by BS and then by mitigation so 1.4k becomes 700 and then 490.
Even with a 20k tooltip in scatter (highly improbable, on a bow it will never go over 15K) each tick won't be as powerful as another DoT ticks (such as SA ticks).
The easiest solution was to keep the bleed, but reducing the dmg from 40% to 30%. The change has reduced to less than a 5% of the tooltip if we consider BS and mitigation.
And ZoS wants us to buy that.
Battlespirit is calculated like a normal percentage based mitigation.
Why would mitigation reduce the tooltip total of dots? Shouldn't it only reduce what is actually hitting you, in this case each tick of the dot not the total tooltip value of that dot.
Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
- Guild-lead for MV
- Filthy Casual0 -
Xvorg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Ok, I'm gonna explain it again, so some of the guys who are afraid of another OP bleed can understand (it's a bow for Talos' sake, no twin blade and blunt here):
1- Scatter Tooltip at 10K dmg is halved by BS (so now it hits for 5k)
2- Then the mitigation reduces that dmg again around a 30% (so now it hits for 3.5K)
3- The sets does 40% of the dmg done in 3 ticks of 4 seconds, for 1.4k each. The duration is increased by distance
4- Now, with the poison dmg change, each tick will be again halved by BS and then by mitigation so 1.4k becomes 700 and then 490.
Even with a 20k tooltip in scatter (highly improbable, on a bow it will never go over 15K) each tick won't be as powerful as another DoT ticks (such as SA ticks).
The easiest solution was to keep the bleed, but reducing the dmg from 40% to 30%. The change has reduced to less than a 5% of the tooltip if we consider BS and mitigation.
And ZoS wants us to buy that.
Battlespirit is calculated like a normal percentage based mitigation.
Why would mitigation reduce the tooltip total of dots? Shouldn't it only reduce what is actually hitting you, in this case each tick of the dot not the total tooltip value of that dot.
I don't know.
But in fact, DoT's should be explained better. One of the things I've seen is that single target DoTs (like searing strike, sun fire, or cripple) are expressed in that format (the total dmg done), while AoE DoTs (like jabs, rapids or blockade) are expressed in the dmg done per tick.
I tend to think this one, as being a single target, follows the single target format.
If there's any difference between them, regarding the dmg and what the tooltop says is beyond me.Edited by Xvorg on October 3, 2018 7:15PMSarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly
I was born with the wrong sign
In the wrong house
With the wrong ascendancy
I took the wrong road
That led to the wrong tendencies
I was in the wrong place at the wrong time
For the wrong reason and the wrong rhyme
On the wrong day of the wrong week
Used the wrong method with the wrong technique1 -
Toc de Malsvi✭✭✭✭✭
✭If they want to leave it as poison then just go ahead and bump it up to 100% of damage done as a Dot. It will still scale very poorly against any defenses, but it will at least perhaps be worth taking.Legendary Archer of ValenwoodBosmer Dragon Knight Archer. XBox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Nightblade Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Sorcerer Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Warden Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Templar's are evil..1 -
Xvorg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Toc de Malsvi wrote: »If they want to leave it as poison then just go ahead and bump it up to 100% of damage done as a Dot. It will still scale very poorly against any defenses, but it will at least perhaps be worth taking.
The bleed was OK IMHO.
Anyway, I don't understand ZoS fixation with poison dmg having alchemic poisons for over 2 years. It should have long gone.Sarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly
I was born with the wrong sign
In the wrong house
With the wrong ascendancy
I took the wrong road
That led to the wrong tendencies
I was in the wrong place at the wrong time
For the wrong reason and the wrong rhyme
On the wrong day of the wrong week
Used the wrong method with the wrong technique0 -
The_Last_Titan✭✭✭Razor shot probably doesn't crit cause then the crit would be double dipping, with a crit from the scattershot being already applied to the razor shot, but if it is being affected twice by resistance that would be kinda inconsistent.0 -
Strider__Roshin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭The_Last_Titan wrote: »Razor shot probably doesn't crit cause then the crit would be double dipping, with a crit from the scattershot being already applied to the razor shot, but if it is being affected twice by resistance that would be kinda inconsistent.
No it doesn't crit. I've also tested this.2 -
Minno✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Ok, I'm gonna explain it again, so some of the guys who are afraid of another OP bleed can understand (it's a bow for Talos' sake, no twin blade and blunt here):
1- Scatter Tooltip at 10K dmg is halved by BS (so now it hits for 5k)
2- Then the mitigation reduces that dmg again around a 30% (so now it hits for 3.5K)
3- The sets does 40% of the dmg done in 3 ticks of 4 seconds, for 1.4k each. The duration is increased by distance
4- Now, with the poison dmg change, each tick will be again halved by BS and then by mitigation so 1.4k becomes 700 and then 490.
Even with a 20k tooltip in scatter (highly improbable, on a bow it will never go over 15K) each tick won't be as powerful as another DoT ticks (such as SA ticks).
The easiest solution was to keep the bleed, but reducing the dmg from 40% to 30%. The change has reduced to less than a 5% of the tooltip if we consider BS and mitigation.
And ZoS wants us to buy that.
Battlespirit is calculated like a normal percentage based mitigation.
Why would mitigation reduce the tooltip total of dots? Shouldn't it only reduce what is actually hitting you, in this case each tick of the dot not the total tooltip value of that dot.
I don't know.
But in fact, DoT's should be explained better. One of the things I've seen is that single target DoTs (like searing strike, sun fire, or cripple) are expressed in that format (the total dmg done), while AoE DoTs (like jabs, rapids or blockade) are expressed in the dmg done per tick.
I tend to think this one, as being a single target, follows the single target format.
If there's any difference between them, regarding the dmg and what the tooltop says is beyond me.
Here's what I found so far:
- certain dots are dynamic and others static. Cast on one bar, swap to another will cause different damages while some require snapshots of your stats.
- each tick can crit. dynamic stat
- dmg done buffs are also dynamic
Based on that, some dots snapshot your stats at time of cast. So then it looks at your total tooltip, mitigation is calculated, then the game calculates the dmg over time as instructed by the tooltip.
Dots with a "per second" tooltip I believe calculate the mitigation based on that number. So for bleeds, if it says "2k every 2 seconds for 8 seconds", your mitigation is calculated against the 2k.Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
- Guild-lead for MV
- Filthy Casual0 -
Feanor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Damage should be low - Wrobel wants CC abilities to deal low damage, and this one is from range too.Main characters: Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 50 - Flawless Conqueror (PC EU)Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)Other characters:Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial NecromancerFearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDKValirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBladeTuruna - AD Altmer magBladeKheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDKKibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - StormproofYavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWardenAzog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWardenVidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDKMarquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - StormproofRawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWardenTu'waccah - AD Redguard StamplarAll chars 50 @ CP 1900+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on PC EU.0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Damage should be low - Wrobel wants CC abilities to deal low damage, and this one is from range too.
This is about the item set, not about the skill itself (which is about the same damage as Reach already).
Imagine you had a Master's Staff, but instead of adding 2000 damage to Reach tooltip it only added 1000 in PvP, and then got reduced by Battle Spirit again. Would you still slot it? That's pretty much what we're dealing with here.2 -
Feanor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Damage should be low - Wrobel wants CC abilities to deal low damage, and this one is from range too.
This is about the item set, not about the skill itself (which is about the same damage as Reach already).
Imagine you had a Master's Staff, but instead of adding 2000 damage to Reach tooltip it only added 1000 in PvP, and then got reduced by Battle Spirit again. Would you still slot it? That's pretty much what we're dealing with here.
I agree the weapon might not be very good. Amping up the damage isn’t what ZOS wants for a CC skill though. Either you remove the CC (though a ranged bleed is still problematic in my opinion) or you redesign the weapon.Main characters: Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 50 - Flawless Conqueror (PC EU)Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)Other characters:Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial NecromancerFearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDKValirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBladeTuruna - AD Altmer magBladeKheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDKKibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - StormproofYavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWardenAzog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWardenVidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDKMarquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - StormproofRawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWardenTu'waccah - AD Redguard StamplarAll chars 50 @ CP 1900+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on PC EU.0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Damage should be low - Wrobel wants CC abilities to deal low damage, and this one is from range too.
This is about the item set, not about the skill itself (which is about the same damage as Reach already).
Imagine you had a Master's Staff, but instead of adding 2000 damage to Reach tooltip it only added 1000 in PvP, and then got reduced by Battle Spirit again. Would you still slot it? That's pretty much what we're dealing with here.
I agree the weapon might not be very good. Amping up the damage isn’t what ZOS wants for a CC skill though. Either you remove the CC (though a ranged bleed is still problematic in my opinion) or you redesign the weapon.
Then why does Master Staff increase the damage of a CC skill (Reach/Clench)? Would you also like to see Master Staff redesigned, even when it lets you use a typically CC skill only in a different manner (thus increasing build diversity)?2 -
Feanor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Damage should be low - Wrobel wants CC abilities to deal low damage, and this one is from range too.
This is about the item set, not about the skill itself (which is about the same damage as Reach already).
Imagine you had a Master's Staff, but instead of adding 2000 damage to Reach tooltip it only added 1000 in PvP, and then got reduced by Battle Spirit again. Would you still slot it? That's pretty much what we're dealing with here.
I agree the weapon might not be very good. Amping up the damage isn’t what ZOS wants for a CC skill though. Either you remove the CC (though a ranged bleed is still problematic in my opinion) or you redesign the weapon.
Then why does Master Staff increase the damage of a CC skill (Reach/Clench)? Would you also like to see Master Staff redesigned, even when it lets you use a typically CC skill only in a different manner (thus increasing build diversity)?
Master Staff doesn’t apply a bleed. Frankly, I’d like most of the master weapons redesigned. A lot of them are either very niche or overall not very good.
Main characters: Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 50 - Flawless Conqueror (PC EU)Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)Other characters:Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial NecromancerFearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDKValirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBladeTuruna - AD Altmer magBladeKheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDKKibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - StormproofYavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWardenAzog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWardenVidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDKMarquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - StormproofRawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWardenTu'waccah - AD Redguard StamplarAll chars 50 @ CP 1900+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on PC EU.0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Damage should be low - Wrobel wants CC abilities to deal low damage, and this one is from range too.
This is about the item set, not about the skill itself (which is about the same damage as Reach already).
Imagine you had a Master's Staff, but instead of adding 2000 damage to Reach tooltip it only added 1000 in PvP, and then got reduced by Battle Spirit again. Would you still slot it? That's pretty much what we're dealing with here.
I agree the weapon might not be very good. Amping up the damage isn’t what ZOS wants for a CC skill though. Either you remove the CC (though a ranged bleed is still problematic in my opinion) or you redesign the weapon.
Then why does Master Staff increase the damage of a CC skill (Reach/Clench)? Would you also like to see Master Staff redesigned, even when it lets you use a typically CC skill only in a different manner (thus increasing build diversity)?
Master Staff doesn’t apply a bleed. Frankly, I’d like most of the master weapons redesigned. A lot of them are either very niche or overall not very good.
No, it doesn't (though Flame Clench does have a fire dmg DoT). But it does add damage and you wrote the following:Amping up the damage isn’t what ZOS wants for a CC skill though.
I think in an ideal world every set would be "niche", there's nothing wrong with that per se. That'd implicate a wide variety of build diversity with people building around various different playstyles.
At the moment Razor Shot isn't niche, it's just bad.Edited by DDuke on October 4, 2018 12:04PM3 -
Feanor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@DDuke
People aren’t running Master Staves because these are outstanding either, but because they want a ranged CC that can be spammed also.Main characters: Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 50 - Flawless Conqueror (PC EU)Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)Other characters:Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial NecromancerFearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDKValirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBladeTuruna - AD Altmer magBladeKheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDKKibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - StormproofYavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWardenAzog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWardenVidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDKMarquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - StormproofRawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWardenTu'waccah - AD Redguard StamplarAll chars 50 @ CP 1900+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on PC EU.0 -
kitty79✭✭✭✭(sorry google translation ^_^)
concerning damage over time,
physical damage = bleeding
poison damage = poson dot
at no time will we imagine bleeding on poison damage so how do we get to: physical damage = poisonous?
where do we put that? between the flat earth and the loch ness monster?
I do not think the wizards will contradict me the time to cast a shield (yes that has changed in the meantime I know) but the people who made the patch murkmire they play teso? they have already played or?
I do not even know whether to ask for explanations or take the blue pill directly .....Edited by kitty79 on October 4, 2018 3:01PMsnipe forever ^_^
-maîtresse de pêche
-héroïne de Tamriel
-sauveuse de Nirn
-grande maîtresse artisane1 -
Zelos✭✭✭✭✭Bleeds have a counterplay in pvp, as they dont go through critical resistance. You can reduce bleed damage through critical resistance.Aeonhack - AD Stamina Nightblade - 5 Star General
CP1200
Creator and user of "Questionable" addons and game mechanics.0 -
kitty79✭✭✭✭i sell blunt razor, guarantee safe, it does not cut, ideal for childrensnipe forever ^_^
-maîtresse de pêche
-héroïne de Tamriel
-sauveuse de Nirn
-grande maîtresse artisane2