Is dark magic evil?

SolidusPrime · October 2018

If I rip a creature from it's home plane and force it to fight my enemies to the death...isn't that just a little bit evil, no matter what the creature is?

Bruccius · October 2018

SolidusPrime wrote: »

If I rip a creature from it's home plane and force it to fight my enemies to the death...isn't that just a little bit evil, no matter what the creature is?

Considering these creatures honor power, and often end up back-stabbing their summoners, I would argue, no.

Rain_Greyraven · October 2018

Athannos wrote: »

Can any magic even be "evil", if you use it to accomplish good deeds?

Billy: Look Dad! I brought Mom back!!

Dad: What the actual hell?!

Mom: Braaaaaains

Dad What did you do Billy?!

Billy: Well I found this..

Dad: Never mind run!!!!!!

Mom: BRaaaaaaains!!!

All magic has a price.

AcadianPaladin · October 2018

SSlarg wrote: »

Magic is a tool and therefore cannot be good or evil.

The use of magic, it is the user that has intent therefore the user is evil or good.

Is a hammer used in a murder evil?
No the user is evil, not the tool.

^ This. So dark magic is not evil. Depends on the mage using the tool and to what purpose they use it.

SaxonCrusader · October 2018

Well the clue is in the title. Darkness, although not always the case, is usually associated with evil. What defines evil doesn't have to be the tool that's used but the person using the tool. A shield is meant to defend folks and hence, in theory, is meant for good, but what's stopping me from bashing someone's head in with one? It depends on the individual. Magic is simply another tool, how it's used depends on whether the person is good or evil.

As a side note, I prefer to send folks bursting into flames rather than spend my life healing the sick, so I guess I'd fall under the "dark magic" tag.

NyassaV · October 2018

Do you do evil things with it?

Same issue I have with super anti-gun people. (not saying I like the gun nuts either). A gun is a tool you use. You can use it to do good or bad.

As with dark magic using it will likely cause someone pain and suffering and possible death but then again I can do that by hitting someone really hard with a book.

It's purely about how it is used

JinMori · October 2018

stewhead2ub17_ESO wrote: »

Shraar wrote: »

TheShadowScout wrote: »

the fact remains that "evil" often depends entirely on your point of view...

Oh that is just pure nonsense!

Some things are good and some things are bad! Simple! Read the 9 Commands of the Eight Divines if you still don't get it!

I feel like a lot of people are swept away by 50 Shades of Grey and think they're more mature because they're impartial, that nothing is true. They can stuff it. Deep down they know what's what. The road to Oblivion is paved with good intentions, sure, but sincerity and intention cannot define the reality the Aedra have made for us!

What is good:
1. Be kind and generous.
2. Honor the earth, its creatures, and respect the living and dead.
3. Live soberly and peacefully.
4. Work hard.
5. Respect nature.
6. It's such a wonderful thing to love.
7. Don't tell lies that you know to be lies.
8. Work together.
9. Be good to one another.

You are going on the premise that everyone subscribes to the Eight Divines point of view. The simple fact, as others have previously stated here, is that concepts of "good" and "evil" are in the eye of the beholder.

If someone believes that murdering an innocent person is good, then that person is immoral, end of story.

Morality is not subjective if you look at it as a "contract" between people, which is, in it;s most basic form, let's do what is best for society, and, what is best for ourselves, which many times coincides with what is best for society. Killing each other is not moral, because it's not good for the advancement of society, stealing, exact same thing, if stealing was considered moral, you might make a buck or two for yourself, at the expense of another, but at the same time you could also lose those bucks, because someone else steals them from you, see how it works?

In the long run it will be bad for everyone, even if in the short term you might gain some money, and by stealing, you are not creating any value, you are only appropriating what is not yours, therefore, a society with no morals, is a dead society with no advancement.

I don;t know everything about morality, but i know one thing, morality is mostly, if not only objective, there is no, subjective morality, like there is no subjective truth, it's either true or it isn't.

stewhead2ub17_ESO · October 2018

JinMori wrote: »

stewhead2ub17_ESO wrote: »

Shraar wrote: »

TheShadowScout wrote: »

the fact remains that "evil" often depends entirely on your point of view...

Oh that is just pure nonsense!

Some things are good and some things are bad! Simple! Read the 9 Commands of the Eight Divines if you still don't get it!

I feel like a lot of people are swept away by 50 Shades of Grey and think they're more mature because they're impartial, that nothing is true. They can stuff it. Deep down they know what's what. The road to Oblivion is paved with good intentions, sure, but sincerity and intention cannot define the reality the Aedra have made for us!

What is good:
1. Be kind and generous.
2. Honor the earth, its creatures, and respect the living and dead.
3. Live soberly and peacefully.
4. Work hard.
5. Respect nature.
6. It's such a wonderful thing to love.
7. Don't tell lies that you know to be lies.
8. Work together.
9. Be good to one another.

You are going on the premise that everyone subscribes to the Eight Divines point of view. The simple fact, as others have previously stated here, is that concepts of "good" and "evil" are in the eye of the beholder.

If someone believes that murdering an innocent person is good, then that person is immoral, end of story.

Morality is not subjective if you look at it as a "contract" between people, which is, in it;s most basic form, let's do what is best for society, and, what is best for ourselves, which many times coincides with what is best for society. Killing each other is not moral, because it's not good for the advancement of society, stealing, exact same thing, if stealing was considered moral, you might make a buck or two for yourself, at the expense of another, but at the same time you could also lose those bucks, because someone else steals them from you, see how it works?

In the long run it will be bad for everyone, even if in the short term you might gain some money, and by stealing, you are not creating any value, you are only appropriating what is not yours, therefore, a society with no morals, is a dead society with no advancement.

I don;t know everything about morality, but i know one thing, morality is mostly, if not only objective, there is no, subjective morality, like there is no subjective truth, it's either true or it isn't.

You are mistaken and limiting the scope of your view. From YOUR point of view these things are "immoral". Even the concept of "innocence" can be subjective. My segment of society may not necessarily share your views. You can argue that goblin children are "innocent" as they have done nothing wrong to my community personally. However, the killing of goblin children can be seen as acceptable by my society as it culls the herd so to speak and my society views goblins as "evil" or detrimental to my well being. Same with your analogy on stealing. If I steal from an enemy of my clan and weaken their economy, that can certainly be seen as "moral" in the eyes of my peers.

Davor · October 2018

Definition of evil. noun
noun: evil
1.
profound immorality, wickedness, and depravity, especially when regarded as a supernatural force.

So now we have to say what is immoral, wicked. All this is in a point of view.

Is killing evil? Animals kill. Are they evil? Humans kill. Are we evil.

Also this was said many times not from me but others but never addressed. Are knives evil? Are guns evil? Hammers? Pieces of wood? Do they kill? No they don't because they don't move and can't think. They are just tools for someone to use to kill.

So why is magic evil? Does it kill? No it's just there. Only when someone uses it like a tool it can kill.

If we eat animals are we evil? If we eat plants are we evil? We are evil if we eat plants. Ask the Bosmer. So it all comes down to a point of view.

Now maybe the question is not "is it evil" but if it's right or wrong.

JinMori · October 2018

stewhead2ub17_ESO wrote: »

JinMori wrote: »

stewhead2ub17_ESO wrote: »

Shraar wrote: »

TheShadowScout wrote: »

the fact remains that "evil" often depends entirely on your point of view...

Oh that is just pure nonsense!

Some things are good and some things are bad! Simple! Read the 9 Commands of the Eight Divines if you still don't get it!

I feel like a lot of people are swept away by 50 Shades of Grey and think they're more mature because they're impartial, that nothing is true. They can stuff it. Deep down they know what's what. The road to Oblivion is paved with good intentions, sure, but sincerity and intention cannot define the reality the Aedra have made for us!

What is good:
1. Be kind and generous.
2. Honor the earth, its creatures, and respect the living and dead.
3. Live soberly and peacefully.
4. Work hard.
5. Respect nature.
6. It's such a wonderful thing to love.
7. Don't tell lies that you know to be lies.
8. Work together.
9. Be good to one another.

You are going on the premise that everyone subscribes to the Eight Divines point of view. The simple fact, as others have previously stated here, is that concepts of "good" and "evil" are in the eye of the beholder.

If someone believes that murdering an innocent person is good, then that person is immoral, end of story.

Morality is not subjective if you look at it as a "contract" between people, which is, in it;s most basic form, let's do what is best for society, and, what is best for ourselves, which many times coincides with what is best for society. Killing each other is not moral, because it's not good for the advancement of society, stealing, exact same thing, if stealing was considered moral, you might make a buck or two for yourself, at the expense of another, but at the same time you could also lose those bucks, because someone else steals them from you, see how it works?

In the long run it will be bad for everyone, even if in the short term you might gain some money, and by stealing, you are not creating any value, you are only appropriating what is not yours, therefore, a society with no morals, is a dead society with no advancement.

I don;t know everything about morality, but i know one thing, morality is mostly, if not only objective, there is no, subjective morality, like there is no subjective truth, it's either true or it isn't.

You are mistaken and limiting the scope of your view. From YOUR point of view these things are "immoral". Even the concept of "innocence" can be subjective. My segment of society may not necessarily share your views. You can argue that goblin children are "innocent" as they have done nothing wrong to my community personally. However, the killing of goblin children can be seen as acceptable by my society as it culls the herd so to speak and my society views goblins as "evil" or detrimental to my well being. Same with your analogy on stealing. If I steal from an enemy of my clan and weaken their economy, that can certainly be seen as "moral" in the eyes of my peers.

You are mistaken, usually means, i don't agree with you, so let's just go with that.

You could be mistaken too, don't you think? Aren't you limiting your point of view?

There are many things that are immoral, and have been done for "the greater good" that's what i can say about your argument, it doesn't matter, if your peer think what you have done is moral, that kind of thinking is called tribalism, and it's one of the major causes of misinformation, erroneous judging etc....

Would stealing from your enemies be immoral? Well, yes.

See, the difference is that i wouldn't cover up my immoralities by saying, well morality is subjective, that is just a way to avoid feeling guilty, let's say that there is a war, one of the rules of war, is, drain the enemy resources as much as you can, and avoid spending, that also means stealing their food, is it immoral? Yes, does it make the war much easier against them, obviously yes, i don't beat around the bush, if it's immoral it's immoral, even if necessary.

Do you realize how many times people justified their own believes as moral, because they didn't wanna feel guilty? Way too many times, i urge you to consider this.

This morality is subjective thing, is just a way to think that you are correct everytime you do something immoral, because it's all subjective, so everything could be moral, no.

AhPook_Is_Here · October 2018

Cognitive dissonance makes anything possible.

DanteYoda · October 2018

Bruccius wrote: »

SolidusPrime wrote: »

If I rip a creature from it's home plane and force it to fight my enemies to the death...isn't that just a little bit evil, no matter what the creature is?

Considering these creatures honor power, and often end up back-stabbing their summoners, I would argue, no.

That just makes you both evil..

Thevampirenight · October 2018

Well elder scrolls, has always been about personal choices, flexibility, the ability to be both hero or villain or both. Some things like main questlines and dlcs in the other games are considered cannon and the outcome of those happening can't exactly be avoided since they are counted lorewise to have been done. Oblivion, is a good example it has five main guilds you can join, Arena, Dark Brotherhood, Fighters Guild, Mages Guild, Thieves Guild, Knights of the Nine. I'm sure most everyone here knows what the happened to the Champion of Cyrodill at the end of the Shivering Isles questline.

He/She ends up mantling just enough to beat Jyggalag not only stopping him from taking over the isles before he fully reconquers it but because of what you did managed to break the curse for good when no other mantler has been able to do so through other methods Sheogorath used to try and break it.

However this has a cost to your character maybe being forced to be a daedric prince for the rest of time because Jyggalag and Sheogorath are separate beings no longer connected meaning your character is stuck merged to be Sheogorath and they won't become a Vestige like Haskill. Where all the others might have for a time been able to mantle Sheogorath but they always got beaten by Jyggalag. Maybe Jyggalag even used different methods other then conquest to try and end his curse on his own but always failed and always reconquered either by words, duels or by his knights and followers and himself retaking the throne.

No matter what the Mantlers ending up doing to try and beat Jyggalag they were always defeated/driven out killed, in the process being turned into a vestige/dremora like Haskill. Maybe with the exception of Arden Sul maybe he achieved chim to allow him to remain himself and thus becoming the third face of maddness but maybe because of the other two forces within his mind he ended up offing himself or being offed and jyggalag/sheogorath returned back to the original cycle however Arden Sul become tied to the land and its people like Talos on Nirn and still exists as part of the Sheogorath Oversoul once the champion took the place of falling into the Sithis Shaped Whole Willingly Jyggalag was cut off for good and finally free. Thus Arden Sul and the Champion are the reasons why Sheogorath can finally be free of Jyggalag and Jyggalag being free of Sheogorath. Because he ended up becoming his own god in the process of everything hes done the final and most important piece being the Champion of Cyrodill. Just like the Soul of the Underking was needed to complete the Talos God. Maybe the Champion was needed so Sheogorath can become an actual god/Daedric Prince and be free of his other personality.

Your heros ultimate ending is becoming a God of Maddess but because they did not acheive chim they are a shared being/personality Two people becoming one being . But what your character did or did not do is up to you. Sheogoraths mention of a severed head, In that Skyrim quest. Could be the Champion of Cyrodill found the head of the one lady in the darkbrotherhood or it could be a severed head found in Kvatch. He might know about the Gray Fox because of all the mentions and wanted posters and maybe didn't even do theives guild. IF you chose not to do so. They leave things vague enough so what happened to your character and what they did is up to you.

Because of the Dragonbreak, there is many vestiges some heroes, some villains, some in between, between all alignments and backgrounds. Not every Vestige was a dark brotherhood assassin or a Thieves guild Thief not every vestige was a vampire or werewolf. Heck not every vestige was an adventurer and maybe just a normal day citizen before all the events of eso happened maybe some are avatars of Lorkhan if thats how you want to play it or think of it. That choice is up to you what you do ingame is your canon maybe your just a simple house owner and crafter or an adventurer or a paladin knight beating back evil where you find it. Now I wish they had allowed us to join the counter factions Order of the Hour and the Iron Wheel and maybe having mirroring questlines. For the Dark Brotherhood and Thieves Guild Dlcs. But they didn't. Ever Since Daggerfall Bethesda has avoided multiple endings, maybe allowing multiple outcomes for some quests and questlines but leaving all those vague. Like some of the choices in Eso. Given this is a dragonbreak I think they can be more flexible and allow different endings to dlcs of the players choosing.

As for the sorcerer skillines, The Dark Magic one could be based on magic from Azura based on crystals in Azuras star. Or maybe its connected to the lost Daedric realm of Mytheria and tied to Jyggalag, Somehow if that how you want to explain it or Merinda. Think of the Sorcerer as a Conjurer, unlike in the real world where magic might be evil and corruptible tied to demons of different religions or not tied to demons at all or fairies or whatever in the worlds many religions which I will not talk about it as we can not and just going by that example. Fantasy magic in settings like this isn't like that. It can be used for both good or for evil. Most Magic Abilities does not come from gods exactly in the elderscrolls maybe some of them do but most of them no. Most of all of it all comes from Aetherius and mortals/daedra have shaped it into many different themes for their use. Like the Templar Spear abilties, Sunlight abilities and healing abilties. The sorcerers, Crystal/Rune Summoning/ Daedric Conjouring and Lightening abilties. The Nightblades dark abilties, are assassins/theives/Rogue themed and maybe the abilties could be connected to daedric princes and sithis or created by followers of Nocturnal, Mephala, Sithis. Those abilties are more evil themed then the sorcerers abilities but all these class abilties are based on schools of magic and can be used for good just as much as they could be used for evil. Dragonknight well is themed around dragons, they are trained to call upon magic that might be related to dragons but still comes from Aetherius.

TheShadowScout · October 2018

Reistr_the_Unbroken wrote: »

So how exactly did irl stuff get here in a post about dark magic?

Because the discussion was also about "evil"... and the question if it is an absolute concept that is the same for everyone, everywhere... or if it is relative to someones point of view.

Davor wrote: »

Definition of evil. noun
noun: evil
1.
profound immorality, wickedness, and depravity, especially when regarded as a supernatural force.

So even the definitions agree that its a matter of -morals-!

But its even funnier if you follow the descriptions:

Evil, in a general sense, is the opposite or absence of good. It can be an extremely broad concept, though in everyday usage is often used more narrowly to denote profound wickedness.

So, "Evil is wickedness" and then we go on to:

Wickedness is generally considered a synonym for evil or sinfulness. Among theologians and philosophers, it has the more specific meaning of evil committed consciously and of free will.

So, wickedness is willfully comitting a sin, and we more to:

In a religious context, sin is the act of transgression against divine law. Sin can also be viewed as any thought or action that endangers the ideal relationship between an individual and God; or as any diversion from the perceived ideal order for human living.

And finally find out what "sin" is. And more importently, who decides what it is - deviation from some -percieved ideal-; from which follows that different credos might have different ideals.

So following that line of definitions, "evil" is -knowingly- comitting a "sin". It follows that if something is not seen as "sin" in your credo, doing it is not evil, right?

Aaaaand we are back to "Evil depends on your point of view!"

Neoealth · October 2018

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

SSlarg wrote: »

Magic is a tool and therefore cannot be good or evil.

The use of magic, it is the user that has intent therefore the user is evil or good.

Is a hammer used in a murder evil?
No the user is evil, not the tool.

^ This. So dark magic is not evil. Depends on the mage using the tool and to what purpose they use it.

I've already debunked that sorry. To sum it up, if the method of creating the hammer is evil in itself, then the hammer is evil and using the hammer is an evil act. Admittedly the tool argument is a sound one normally, but given this fantasy setting and in terms of necromancy and the use of black soul gems, it is not valid.

Glurin · October 2018

Neoealth wrote: »

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

SSlarg wrote: »

Magic is a tool and therefore cannot be good or evil.

The use of magic, it is the user that has intent therefore the user is evil or good.

Is a hammer used in a murder evil?
No the user is evil, not the tool.

^ This. So dark magic is not evil. Depends on the mage using the tool and to what purpose they use it.

I've already debunked that sorry. To sum it up, if the method of creating the hammer is evil in itself, then the hammer is evil and using the hammer is an evil act. Admittedly the tool argument is a sound one normally, but given this fantasy setting and in terms of necromancy and the use of black soul gems, it is not valid.

Do you realize how much knowledge we use in the medical field alone that was acquired though some very evil acts committed by some very evil men?

ZOS_JesC · October 2018

Greetings, we've removed several comments that were related to real world politics. Since the thread has derailed, we've decided to close it. Thank you for your understanding.