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Fake role ***....and an idea on how to deal with it
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FlyingSwan✭✭✭✭✭I hate fake roles but I'd hate this even more. Sorry.
Ok, and what do you hate about it? the fact that it would make fake roles suffer horribly while not really effecting those that are doing the role proper? or the fact that it won't let you dart off in a dungeon? I mean I did state quite clearly that said effects would only be applied to you WHILE YOU ARE IN THE DUNGEON
The fact that I can't queue with friends with 3 or 4 DPS maybe?
@Tasear
The OP’s idea is simple, elegant, and targets the issue with surgical precision while leaving ZERO balance impacts as a side effect across the rest of the game. It doesn’t impact pvp at all. It doesn’t impact overland play at all. Pre-made groups would be unchanged.
It targets the wrong people because the penalty actually affects the people in the team who are doing their own jobs and who do care. Most people who queue as fakes have not the slightest clue they are in fact fake or bad at the game. It's rare that DPS chars flailing about in heavy armour with a two-handed weapon and doing only 10k DPS actually realise this is bad performance, I mean, 10,000 sounds like a big number right? If you politely point out that's the sort of DPS a level 5 char can do they are genuinely surprised, therefore they will be blissfully unaware that their poor play has just landed a load of penalities on the group if the OP's suggestion went live (which it won't, as it's awful).
Having a poor or fake player in the team is a penalty already, we don't want a further load of extra group-wide debuffs harming the people who are playing well.
The answer is the same as it's always been: educate, vote kick, carry, leave. In that order.
Edited by FlyingSwan on October 3, 2018 1:39PM0 -
witchdoctor✭✭✭✭✭
✭I would love to see these players solo a Veteran March of Sacrifices. Until I see a video of them actually doing it - I call b.s.
Not to mention it would take way too long even if they could manage it (which again: I seriously doubt). So I would not listen to these posters suggesting that everyone just needs to learn to solo dungeons. It's ridiculous and absurd advice.
The base line dungeons are fairly easy for high level characters. But that is older content. The DLC dungeons still provide plenty of challenge for even veteran players.
@Jeremy
Couldn't find one for the present round of DLC dungeons, but here are some links for vet Fang Lair and vet SCP being done solo. Won't be long before vMoS and vMKH are being done solo as well.
https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/98e6xz/veteran_scalecaller_peak_solo_all_bosses_magicka/
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/301792941?t=
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SolidusPrime✭✭✭✭I have found that most PUGS are OK with simply kicking fake-role'ers. If they are not I just drop. Just make sure you explain what the kick vote is for.
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SakuraRush✭✭✭Regarding the just solo it comments that show up, I have characters that can solo virtually all content that can be solo'd. That doesn't mean I can queue them as tank. Because they aren't tanks. They have no taunts and no way to control a fight involving other party members.
They can DPS and they can heal, but not tank. And even at that they don't heal groups well enough to take that spot from a proper healer. As such they only queue for damage.
When they end up in a group with a fake tank it actually makes it worse than if I was solo. Because now you have party members fleeing about and making the battlefield more chaotic than it should be.
I don't feel that Trinity need be enforced across the board. However allow players to choose the types of groups they want to be placed in.
Yes it would increase wait times but it would allow players to better control the groups they end up on.
And to be clear on things fake tanks are bad.
Fake healers are bad.
PvP specced dps in dungeons are bad.
Not wanting to learn the mechanics of mechanical dungeons is bad.
Players have numerous ways they can be bad. The problem isn't so much the game, it's the players. Which is much harder to fix.2 -
SakuraRush✭✭✭SolidusPrime wrote: »I have found that most PUGS are OK with simply kicking fake-role'ers. If they are not I just drop. Just make sure you explain what the kick vote is for.
I've flat out asked to be kicked if I get placed into a dungeon I'm not sure that I can handle on the character I was using. (Example: Tanking vet Bloodroot on an experimental tank build)
And found that groups were reluctant to kick me. I wasn't a fake role, just not capable of handling the task at the time. I've even offered to swap to a character that can handle it and been meet with resistance to kick me.
It's tough to know what any given group is comfortable with when it comes to kicking a player.0 -
SolidusPrime✭✭✭✭SakuraRush wrote: »SolidusPrime wrote: »I have found that most PUGS are OK with simply kicking fake-role'ers. If they are not I just drop. Just make sure you explain what the kick vote is for.
I've flat out asked to be kicked if I get placed into a dungeon I'm not sure that I can handle on the character I was using. (Example: Tanking vet Bloodroot on an experimental tank build)
And found that groups were reluctant to kick me. I wasn't a fake role, just not capable of handling the task at the time. I've even offered to swap to a character that can handle it and been meet with resistance to kick me.
It's tough to know what any given group is comfortable with when it comes to kicking a player.
Not in my experience. People seem to have no issues kicking fake-queue's as long as you tell them what it's for.
If someone immediately popped in and started begging to be kicked I prob wouldn't kick them either. Leave the group and take the insignificant cool down. If you can't handle certain content don't queue up for it.2 -
josiahva✭✭✭✭✭
✭whine whine whine. The only way to deal with is to become better to compensate, and when actually needed, kick the faker...I have no problem finishing any pugged dungeons this way(including vet DLC dungeons)0 -
SakuraRush✭✭✭SolidusPrime wrote: »SakuraRush wrote: »SolidusPrime wrote: »I have found that most PUGS are OK with simply kicking fake-role'ers. If they are not I just drop. Just make sure you explain what the kick vote is for.
I've flat out asked to be kicked if I get placed into a dungeon I'm not sure that I can handle on the character I was using. (Example: Tanking vet Bloodroot on an experimental tank build)
And found that groups were reluctant to kick me. I wasn't a fake role, just not capable of handling the task at the time. I've even offered to swap to a character that can handle it and been meet with resistance to kick me.
It's tough to know what any given group is comfortable with when it comes to kicking a player.
Not in my experience. People seem to have no issues kicking fake-queue's as long as you tell them what it's for.
If someone immediately popped in and started begging to be kicked I prob wouldn't kick them either. Leave the group and take the insignificant cool down. If you can't handle certain content don't queue up for it.
I don't purposely queue for things a character can't handle. Sometimes random throws you into it though.
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profundidob16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭Today I have tried to get my random daily dungeon done...17 times...and yet every single time it has been rendered not possible due to one [or more] pricks showing up in as fake role [on vet mind you..like..wtf] as you can picture it is frustrating to no end...but..all is not lost, I have an idea on how to fix it...introducing
ROLE EFFECTS: when you are in a dungeon under a certain role you are given certain buffs [and debuffs] to make you suitable for your *** job
Healer: -80% damage done, +30% major/minor buff duration on self and targets +15% healing done
Tank: -50% damage done, +10% less damage taken, +taunt on all heavy attacks, +60% more resources gained on heavy attack
DPS: +5% damage done, +tether [basically a synergy that can be used to drag them back to the rest of the group in the event t hey run off past all the mobs...like an ***]
result: Unless you are suited for the role you queue as, you're just going to get slapped with debuffs and have a bad time [to the point where you might as well not bother]
if you guys can think of a method that's a little less heavy handed while also being this effective at keeping the fakes way, then lets hear it.
hmm modification relative to their chosen build ? no. Buuuuuuuutt caps should work fine:
Healer role: all dps output capped to 5K max + max resistances capped to 20k + max health capped to 25k
Tank role: all dps and healing output capped to 5K max
DPS role: all healing output capped to 5K + max resistances capped to 15k + max health capped to 25k
@ZOS_RobGarrett0 -
FlyingSwan✭✭✭✭✭SakuraRush wrote: »
I don't purposely queue for things a character can't handle. Sometimes random throws you into it though.
Don't queue for vet random then. I have a char I am testing various tank builds on and I know it would struggle/fail in the new vet DLC, so I only queue him normal random. I still get the same XP bonus but I don't inconvenience other players or end up having a penalty for leaving.
Edited by FlyingSwan on October 3, 2018 4:05PM0 -
Stebarnz✭✭✭✭✭
✭hmm modification relative to their chosen build ? no. Buuuuuuuutt caps should work fine:
Healer role: all dps output capped to 5K max + max resistances capped to 20k + max health capped to 25k
Tank role: all dps and healing output capped to 5K max
DPS role: all healing output capped to 5K + max resistances capped to 15k + max health capped to 25k
I like to run random normal on some chars, this would be horribly restrictive and prevent carrying, normally casual players pull terrible dps and need help dungeons would take too long.
Sometimes I queue for vet pledges and I have to help some casual players with the dungeon as they are not good at a role, implementation of any kind of role punishment would make me fill my group and never ever carry any pugs so new players would never be able to complete dungeons.
If I queue with my friends we are good enough to run 4 dps and burn the dungeon quick, why would you stop us playing how we want to?
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Bucky Balls✭✭✭✭This is a terrible idea that would be an imposition of unnecesary restriction and control for a problem that does not exist or, arguably where it does, mechanisms already exist to deal perfectly well with (namely vote-kick or leave).
Imposing this would destroy any chance of group flexibility or dynamic changes in all dungeon runs.
Even if you don't belong to the 'gitgud/l2p' camp - and I don't - then look on it as a challenge, time-permitting (I do). I tank or heal a LOT of pugs and something like this would kill off any desire whatsoever for me to even think about queueing for groups with group finder. In one misguided, misthought and, I have to say, completely absurd idea, you would effectively eliminate two of the most needed roles provided by this player and, I imagine, a lot of other tanks/healers, too.
Please stop with these silly ideas so that zos can focus on fixing parts of the game that are, in fact, actually broken.
tldr: It ain't broke, so don't fix it (our perfectly fine current options include: vote-kick, leave, be less demanding in expectation, get better....
@ZOS_RobGarrett4 -
DaveMoeDee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I hate the idea. What is the point of being a tank and already having low DPS and now you are going to further lower my DPS? This idea is horrible because it is going to make it unreasonable to have an actual tank build since a non-tank build becomes a tank.
On a side not, the irony of fake tanks and healers is that getting rid of them would make queue times even worse for DPS.4 -
Sange13✭✭✭Terrible idea, through and through. If these forums had some form of Dislike button, you'd be flooded with them.IGN: Sange-132 -
Chrlynsch✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Caius
Pack Leader of Scourge Alliance- First Fang of Hircine, The Beast of Bruma
PC NA0 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »So, if the DPS suck, then this just punishes the Tank. Yeah, I'd take less damage, except it would be way less than 10%, because of how mitigation stacking. So I'd still be looking at picking up the rest of the party after their dead.
On the other side you would basically be immortal and wouldn't need any shard ever with +60% more resources. Stack that with Fang Lair +30% - Thats basically 90% more per Heavy attack.
It would kinda break tanking in 4 man teams.
Ulfnor's Favor? Why would I ever run that? I've got way more efficient means to get resources back if I need them.0 -
Jayman1000✭✭✭✭✭
✭Some time ago I suggested a solution based on punishment, but, honestly, I love the proposed idea even more!
What @notyuu proposed is
1. very easy to code/implement! Just add it to the buff/debuff list that you get when you queue with group finder (currently only spell/weapon damage).
2. perfect! It enforces correct roles without punishing anyone EXCEPT the people actually looking to cheat group finder queue AND it rewards you for the correct role.
3. Significantly improves PUG experience (additional buffs). Make it only work when queued with group finder. If you make a custom group and port into dungeon/trial manually, the role buffs/debuffs shouldn't apply.
I can't state how perfect this solution is!
@ZOS_GinaBruno please implement it NOW and give that man a medal and a lifetime subscription!
Though, I would simplify it a lot:
Healer: -80% damage done, +10% healing done
Tank: -80% damage done, +10% physical and spell resistances
DD: +10% damage done
This is an absolutely terrible idea. It would completely destroy any flexibility for group members and it wouldn't fix the problem. Why would this stop fake tanks from queuing as tanks expecting the others in the group to get it all done? The only thing this will accomplish is making those fake tanks even less effective because now they can't even do damage, but they wont stop doing it that's for sure.
Your suggestion is as appropriate a means to fixing fake tanks as cutting the nose of is for curing a cold.1 -
CryonizeSoul ShrivenI do fake heals but never on vet. Just normal, and I'd need to have at least 1 person that I know from a guild or from real life to even attempt doing fake heals.Valeris Stormguard StamDK - NA0 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Jayman1000 wrote: »Some time ago I suggested a solution based on punishment, but, honestly, I love the proposed idea even more!
What @notyuu proposed is
1. very easy to code/implement! Just add it to the buff/debuff list that you get when you queue with group finder (currently only spell/weapon damage).
2. perfect! It enforces correct roles without punishing anyone EXCEPT the people actually looking to cheat group finder queue AND it rewards you for the correct role.
3. Significantly improves PUG experience (additional buffs). Make it only work when queued with group finder. If you make a custom group and port into dungeon/trial manually, the role buffs/debuffs shouldn't apply.
I can't state how perfect this solution is!
@ZOS_GinaBruno please implement it NOW and give that man a medal and a lifetime subscription!
Though, I would simplify it a lot:
Healer: -80% damage done, +10% healing done
Tank: -80% damage done, +10% physical and spell resistances
DD: +10% damage done
This is an absolutely terrible idea. It would completely destroy any flexibility for group members and it wouldn't fix the problem. Why would this stop fake tanks from queuing as tanks expecting the others in the group to get it all done? The only thing this will accomplish is making those fake tanks even less effective because now they can't even do damage, but they wont stop doing it that's for sure.
Your suggestion is as appropriate a means to fixing fake tanks as cutting the nose of is for curing a cold.
On tanks, in particular, that taunt on heavy attack... which seems to have been edited out, was just horrifying. Put that on any ranged DPS queuing as a fake tank and that would be a complete **** show.
Even then, +10% mitigation is not enough to take someone from garbage DPS to tanky. You'd need more like +40% mitigation, and that would be hilariously broken on real tanks, to the point that you couldn't calibrate 1 shots for both in and out of the group finder.0 -
xshatox✭✭✭✭I actually like it, i see it as challenge. That's why i use pug for most undaunted pledge. its fun being chased around by end bosses because tank didn't taunt or got wipe several time because healer bussy dps-ing. Sometime i see funny chat in dungeon group.
Except for trial mostly i use pug for group, not yet ready pug-ing trial.1 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I actually like it, i see it as challenge. That's why i use pug for most undaunted pledge. its fun being chased around by end bosses because tank didn't taunt or got wipe several time because healer bussy dps-ing. Sometime i see funny chat in dungeon group.
Except for trial mostly i use pug for group, not yet ready pug-ing trial.
I think my patience for PUGs wore thin the moment I had someone in chat arguing with me that champion points only applied in dungeons and trials, and didn't function for overland content. I don't even want to know where they got that idea from.0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I hate fake roles but I'd hate this even more. Sorry.
Ok, and what do you hate about it? the fact that it would make fake roles suffer horribly while not really effecting those that are doing the role proper? or the fact that it won't let you dart off in a dungeon? I mean I did state quite clearly that said effects would only be applied to you WHILE YOU ARE IN THE DUNGEON
The fact that I can't queue with friends with 3 or 4 DPS maybe?
If you and your group of dps are such bad arses that the ground trembles at your passing, then walk your butt to the dungeon. Or use a wayshrine to travel into it. Or teleport there through the map.
I think the idea has merit, and should be examined and considered.
Think of it this way - the wrobler came up with the shield cast time nerf as a thing to support the need for healers in a group. I don’t think that is going to have much of an impact because of how many one-shot mechanics there are, and the side effects may be substantial. So how many more of these wrobler ideas do you want to be implemented?
@Tasear
The OP’s idea is simple, elegant, and targets the issue with surgical precision while leaving ZERO balance impacts as a side effect across the rest of the game. It doesn’t impact pvp at all. It doesn’t impact overland play at all. Pre-made groups would be unchanged.
Actually, I do see a side effect. The people that chase harder difficulties could cross-role as a way to make the content more challenging than mere vet hard mode on the fly, without the gold cost of removing champ points or dealing with junk gear. If a group of friends has mastered a dungeon, then if everyone chooses a bad role for the character then suddenly the dungeon becomes a struggle again.
To be fair this is not so elegant or targeting with surgical precision and to a degree goes against the bluring the lines of the Trinity the devs have specifically stated was part of the design of this game.
It will push out very competent players who are skilled enough to carry a less experienced group through a dungeon and this happens often. Granted, I do not need to queue for a random group since I have guilds to go to. However, I often do queue for a random as a healer since I can put out good dps and still heal a group. Often it really makes a difference as my dps is over half the groups dps.
In other words, OPs idea wants to nerf my ability to do that and essentially push me out of queueing like that and helping others. Many of those got their first vet clear of whatever dungeon I joined them in and often they were already in progress meaning the original healer quit the group.
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xshatox✭✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »I actually like it, i see it as challenge. That's why i use pug for most undaunted pledge. its fun being chased around by end bosses because tank didn't taunt or got wipe several time because healer bussy dps-ing. Sometime i see funny chat in dungeon group.
Except for trial mostly i use pug for group, not yet ready pug-ing trial.
I think my patience for PUGs wore thin the moment I had someone in chat arguing with me that champion points only applied in dungeons and trials, and didn't function for overland content. I don't even want to know where they got that idea from.
That is one of chat that I categorized as funny.0 -
profundidob16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »I actually like it, i see it as challenge. That's why i use pug for most undaunted pledge. its fun being chased around by end bosses because tank didn't taunt or got wipe several time because healer bussy dps-ing. Sometime i see funny chat in dungeon group.
Except for trial mostly i use pug for group, not yet ready pug-ing trial.
I think my patience for PUGs wore thin the moment I had someone in chat arguing with me that champion points only applied in dungeons and trials, and didn't function for overland content. I don't even want to know where they got that idea from.
but....it's true...doesn't it work just like the foodbuff which only applies to you if you're wearing a red dress and golden earrings ?
=P0 -
Meld777✭✭✭✭✭I can't believe some people actually complain that they need DPS as a Healer or Tank to "carry the group".
If you're a healer who wants to solo the content, guess what? Queue as a damn DD, like every other DD, and solo it, instead of cheating the queue! Same goes for tanks. Heck, you'd even have a real healer and tank in the group, making the run go smooth. Just because you can solo it doesn't mean you're entitled to a faster queue, ruining the experience for three other players who didn't sign up for it.
And the changes proposed would have literally no effect on premade groups, except you'd have to port in instead of using group finder. I'll gladly pay 146 gold for that.
And the biggest joke of an argument: "Well, then have fun with even longer queue times!" Seriously? Please get out of the damn group finder! I'm not waiting for 1h in queue for some piece of shkit to pop up as a fake tank and waste the 1h I waited. I'll gladly wait for 1h 5min to make sure it's an actual tank I get! The whole point of this discussion is to make sure YOU don't queue up anymore and ruin other people's fun.Edited by Meld777 on October 5, 2018 12:58AMMaelstrom Arena Champion | Undaunted | Fighters Guild Victor
Level 50 Magicka NB | CP160+
nAA | vCoH1 HM | nSO | nCoA2 | nDSA | nMA | vVoM
PC EU2 -
LiberatorSam✭✭✭SolidusPrime wrote: »SakuraRush wrote: »SolidusPrime wrote: »I have found that most PUGS are OK with simply kicking fake-role'ers. If they are not I just drop. Just make sure you explain what the kick vote is for.
I've flat out asked to be kicked if I get placed into a dungeon I'm not sure that I can handle on the character I was using. (Example: Tanking vet Bloodroot on an experimental tank build)
And found that groups were reluctant to kick me. I wasn't a fake role, just not capable of handling the task at the time. I've even offered to swap to a character that can handle it and been meet with resistance to kick me.
It's tough to know what any given group is comfortable with when it comes to kicking a player.
Not in my experience. People seem to have no issues kicking fake-queue's as long as you tell them what it's for.
If someone immediately popped in and started begging to be kicked I prob wouldn't kick them either. Leave the group and take the insignificant cool down. If you can't handle certain content don't queue up for it.
If a person asked to be kicked, you are just punishing everyone by refusing to kick. The one asking for a kick do not gain any benefits so he/she will remain in the group till the 15 minuets mark, where it’s beneficial for him/her to leave the group cuz he can queue again. However you are wasting the remaining 2 people’s time by not kicking, which makes you as bad as the guy asking for the kick. Instead of going for mutual destruction, people should go with the win-win solution.1 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I can't believe some people actually complain that they need DPS as a Healer or Tank to "carry the group".
If you are speaking to me I do not need to group with random players. I have a couple good guilds to run with.
Again, if you are talking to me you clearly misunderstood what I stated as I clearly stated I often carry the DPS of the group while still healing them. I often in groups that had failed so much the healer dropped and I filled their spot. I queue to help, and it does. LOL, and it is not cheating the queue because I am healing.
So again, if you were replying to the comment I made then I suggest read again. And no worries. If something as absurd as this idea is implemented I certainly will avoid the headache it will most certainly bring.Edited by idk on October 5, 2018 2:49AM0 -
newtinmpls✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭If my group is fully healed and got there buffs then what do you suggest I do? Keep throwing out unnecessary heals?
If you are properly kitted out with Spell Power Cure they aren't unnecessary.Tenesi Faryon of Telvanni - Dunmer Sorceress who deliberately sought sacrifice into Cold Harbor to rescue her beloved.
Hisa Ni Caemaire - Altmer Sorceress, member of the Order Draconis and Adept of the House of Dibella.
Broken Branch Toothmaul - goblin (for my goblin characters, I use either orsimer or bosmer templates) Templar, member of the Order Draconis and persistently unskilled pickpocket
Mol gro Durga - Orsimer Socerer/Battlemage who died the first time when the Nibenay Valley chapterhouse of the Order Draconis was destroyed, then went back to Cold Harbor to rescue his second/partner who was still captive. He overestimated his resistance to the hopelessness of Oblivion, about to give up, and looked up to see the golden glow of atherius surrounding a beautiful young woman who extended her hand to him and said "I can help you". He carried Fianna Kingsley out of Cold Harbor on his shoulder. He carried Alvard Stower under one arm. He also irritated the Prophet who had intended the portal for only Mol and Lyris.***Order Draconis - well c'mon there has to be some explanation for all those dragon tattoos.
House of Dibella - If you have ever seen or read "Memoirs of a Geisha" that's just the beginning...
Nibenay Valley Chapterhouse - Where now stands only desolate ground and a dolmen there once was a thriving community supporting one of the major chapterhouses of the Order Draconis1 -
robpr✭✭✭✭✭
✭Make tanking and healing more interesting or increase difficulty of old content so they are required. Fixed.1
https://youtu.be/E679XJellLs