Assassin's Will And Power Lash

NyassaV · October 2018

HEBREWHAMMERRR wrote: »

Apparently assassins will wasn’t already predictable enough with requiring 5 LAs, playing arguably the loudest activation sound in the game, and a crazy slow projectile, they now needed to add a melee range projectile time, hindering the entire point of closing the gap and timing this already telegraphed burst even more difficult. Why is this a change? Makes absolutely no sense, they keep watering down this game to cater to casuals every update. The entire point of this ability is to build up burst, get in melee, time your cc with your bow, why are you adding a buffered projectile that close to cater to people who can’t counter react? Sigh..

THAT MEAN NIGHTBALDE ONE SHOTTED ME NERF HIM REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

NyassaV · October 2018

Daus wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Frags can be casted at least twice as often as the Spectral Bow, and it doesn't require landing any light or heavy attacks to achieve. It wouldn't be balanced for them to do comparable damage.

@Daus here is something we disagree again

In a pve rotation having frags only procc from one bar and with a proccchance of 35% you´ll have very similar number of hits when looking at both abilities.

Yes you can procc frags back to back - but you can also go on a 10s streak of no fragprocc at all.

Just look at at a couple of pve parses and you´ll find my statement to be true.
Compared fear turbo dps parse on 6 mill dummy:
will 15 hits
frags 17 hits
Compared alcast pve build dps parse 3 mill dummy sorc 6mill dummy nb:
will 18 hits (halve this)
frags 9 hits

In pvp this effect gets amplified by not having a staple rotation and frags usually not being on the defensive bar.

Furthermore getting a will procc does not cost you resources. If you missed you will you can just lightattack spam your next procc. Getting a frag procc ALWAYS requires to invest resources because you need to cast skills.

Ah you see other than "tanking" dungeons for undaunted I don't PvE on my magsorc. I mainly just do BGs, and duel

Knowing that you just duel really hinders a lot of arguments. For instance Magblade does extraordinarily well in dueling but suffers in open world engagements. Keep this in mind going forward ect ect

thankyourat · October 2018

Frags hits super hard though I was fighting a sorc the other day who was hitting me constantly with 10k frags. It's actually the third hardest hitting ability in the game. Frags is fine the problem is sorcs aren't building any damage into their builds, and I understand why. To keep your damage shield up you have to invest so much into sustain open world that it's hard to fit damage into your build.

It's pretty much the same thing on magblade my dueling magblade has almost a 30k assassin's will tool tip while my open world magblade assassin's will tool tip is just at 20k. My open world mag sorc has a crystal frag tooltip of almost 18k and I'm sure if I created a dueling build I could probably get it close to 24k so the damage on the ability is there it's just most sorcs are wearing all utility sets. Crystal frag is also easier to land than assassin's will because will travels so slow and has a really loud audio que.

Strider__Roshin · October 2018

NyassaV wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Frags can be casted at least twice as often as the Spectral Bow, and it doesn't require landing any light or heavy attacks to achieve. It wouldn't be balanced for them to do comparable damage.

@Daus here is something we disagree again

In a pve rotation having frags only procc from one bar and with a proccchance of 35% you´ll have very similar number of hits when looking at both abilities.

Yes you can procc frags back to back - but you can also go on a 10s streak of no fragprocc at all.

Just look at at a couple of pve parses and you´ll find my statement to be true.
Compared fear turbo dps parse on 6 mill dummy:
will 15 hits
frags 17 hits
Compared alcast pve build dps parse 3 mill dummy sorc 6mill dummy nb:
will 18 hits (halve this)
frags 9 hits

In pvp this effect gets amplified by not having a staple rotation and frags usually not being on the defensive bar.

Furthermore getting a will procc does not cost you resources. If you missed you will you can just lightattack spam your next procc. Getting a frag procc ALWAYS requires to invest resources because you need to cast skills.

Ah you see other than "tanking" dungeons for undaunted I don't PvE on my magsorc. I mainly just do BGs, and duel

Knowing that you just duel really hinders a lot of arguments. For instance Magblade does extraordinarily well in dueling but suffers in open world engagements. Keep this in mind going forward ect ect

One of the main people I play with mains a Magblade and does very well in open world with no Cloak, and only Healing Ward. Which really goes to show that those complaining about the shield changes really suffer from L2P issues. Some people need the crutch; others do not.

Tonturri · October 2018

Daus wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Frags can be casted at least twice as often as the Spectral Bow, and it doesn't require landing any light or heavy attacks to achieve. It wouldn't be balanced for them to do comparable damage.

@Daus here is something we disagree again

In a pve rotation having frags only procc from one bar and with a proccchance of 35% you´ll have very similar number of hits when looking at both abilities.

Yes you can procc frags back to back - but you can also go on a 10s streak of no fragprocc at all.

Just look at at a couple of pve parses and you´ll find my statement to be true.
Compared fear turbo dps parse on 6 mill dummy:
will 15 hits
frags 17 hits
Compared alcast pve build dps parse 3 mill dummy sorc 6mill dummy nb:
will 18 hits (halve this)
frags 9 hits

In pvp this effect gets amplified by not having a staple rotation and frags usually not being on the defensive bar.

Furthermore getting a will procc does not cost you resources. If you missed you will you can just lightattack spam your next procc. Getting a frag procc ALWAYS requires to invest resources because you need to cast skills.

Ah you see other than "tanking" dungeons for undaunted I don't PvE on my magsorc. I mainly just do BGs, and duel

Knowing that you just duel really hinders a lot of arguments. For instance Magblade does extraordinarily well in dueling but suffers in open world engagements. Keep this in mind going forward ect ect

One of the main people I play with mains a Magblade and does very well in open world with no Cloak, and only Healing Ward. Which really goes to show that those complaining about the shield changes really suffer from L2P issues. Some people need the crutch; others do not.

That's quite a massive leap in reasoning you've got there.

Strider__Roshin · October 2018

Tonturri wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Frags can be casted at least twice as often as the Spectral Bow, and it doesn't require landing any light or heavy attacks to achieve. It wouldn't be balanced for them to do comparable damage.

@Daus here is something we disagree again

In a pve rotation having frags only procc from one bar and with a proccchance of 35% you´ll have very similar number of hits when looking at both abilities.

Yes you can procc frags back to back - but you can also go on a 10s streak of no fragprocc at all.

Just look at at a couple of pve parses and you´ll find my statement to be true.
Compared fear turbo dps parse on 6 mill dummy:
will 15 hits
frags 17 hits
Compared alcast pve build dps parse 3 mill dummy sorc 6mill dummy nb:
will 18 hits (halve this)
frags 9 hits

In pvp this effect gets amplified by not having a staple rotation and frags usually not being on the defensive bar.

Furthermore getting a will procc does not cost you resources. If you missed you will you can just lightattack spam your next procc. Getting a frag procc ALWAYS requires to invest resources because you need to cast skills.

Ah you see other than "tanking" dungeons for undaunted I don't PvE on my magsorc. I mainly just do BGs, and duel

Knowing that you just duel really hinders a lot of arguments. For instance Magblade does extraordinarily well in dueling but suffers in open world engagements. Keep this in mind going forward ect ect

One of the main people I play with mains a Magblade and does very well in open world with no Cloak, and only Healing Ward. Which really goes to show that those complaining about the shield changes really suffer from L2P issues. Some people need the crutch; others do not.

That's quite a massive leap in reasoning you've got there.

Well I play magsorc, and magDK quite frequently. And there's a very noticeable difference in survivability between playing magicka and stamina. This damage shield nerf was long overdue.

thankyourat · October 2018

Daus wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Frags can be casted at least twice as often as the Spectral Bow, and it doesn't require landing any light or heavy attacks to achieve. It wouldn't be balanced for them to do comparable damage.

@Daus here is something we disagree again

In a pve rotation having frags only procc from one bar and with a proccchance of 35% you´ll have very similar number of hits when looking at both abilities.

Yes you can procc frags back to back - but you can also go on a 10s streak of no fragprocc at all.

Just look at at a couple of pve parses and you´ll find my statement to be true.
Compared fear turbo dps parse on 6 mill dummy:
will 15 hits
frags 17 hits
Compared alcast pve build dps parse 3 mill dummy sorc 6mill dummy nb:
will 18 hits (halve this)
frags 9 hits

In pvp this effect gets amplified by not having a staple rotation and frags usually not being on the defensive bar.

Furthermore getting a will procc does not cost you resources. If you missed you will you can just lightattack spam your next procc. Getting a frag procc ALWAYS requires to invest resources because you need to cast skills.

Ah you see other than "tanking" dungeons for undaunted I don't PvE on my magsorc. I mainly just do BGs, and duel

Knowing that you just duel really hinders a lot of arguments. For instance Magblade does extraordinarily well in dueling but suffers in open world engagements. Keep this in mind going forward ect ect

One of the main people I play with mains a Magblade and does very well in open world with no Cloak, and only Healing Ward. Which really goes to show that those complaining about the shield changes really suffer from L2P issues. Some people need the crutch; others do not.

I play no cloak no shield magblade in open world as well but I'm in heavy armor with a defensive set. I also stack healing you aren't going to play a shieldless light armor magblade open world unless you plan on getting one shotted frequently. The shield changes are horrible no other way around it

usmcjdking · October 2018

I'd much prefer the duration of the skill be lowered to 12-15 seconds than any other change tbh.

bagon · October 2018

Daus wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Frags can be casted at least twice as often as the Spectral Bow, and it doesn't require landing any light or heavy attacks to achieve. It wouldn't be balanced for them to do comparable damage.

Frags also don't grant minor berserk and minor endurance or a snare. So?

True, but buffing the burst damage of the class that already has the most burst doesn't seem rational. That's like saying Nightblades need better sustain.

Sorc has the most burst? Lul

Strider__Roshin · October 2018

thankyourat wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Frags can be casted at least twice as often as the Spectral Bow, and it doesn't require landing any light or heavy attacks to achieve. It wouldn't be balanced for them to do comparable damage.

@Daus here is something we disagree again

In a pve rotation having frags only procc from one bar and with a proccchance of 35% you´ll have very similar number of hits when looking at both abilities.

Yes you can procc frags back to back - but you can also go on a 10s streak of no fragprocc at all.

Just look at at a couple of pve parses and you´ll find my statement to be true.
Compared fear turbo dps parse on 6 mill dummy:
will 15 hits
frags 17 hits
Compared alcast pve build dps parse 3 mill dummy sorc 6mill dummy nb:
will 18 hits (halve this)
frags 9 hits

In pvp this effect gets amplified by not having a staple rotation and frags usually not being on the defensive bar.

Furthermore getting a will procc does not cost you resources. If you missed you will you can just lightattack spam your next procc. Getting a frag procc ALWAYS requires to invest resources because you need to cast skills.

Ah you see other than "tanking" dungeons for undaunted I don't PvE on my magsorc. I mainly just do BGs, and duel

Knowing that you just duel really hinders a lot of arguments. For instance Magblade does extraordinarily well in dueling but suffers in open world engagements. Keep this in mind going forward ect ect

One of the main people I play with mains a Magblade and does very well in open world with no Cloak, and only Healing Ward. Which really goes to show that those complaining about the shield changes really suffer from L2P issues. Some people need the crutch; others do not.

I play no cloak no shield magblade in open world as well but I'm in heavy armor with a defensive set. I also stack healing you aren't going to play a shieldless light armor magblade open world unless you plan on getting one shotted frequently. The shield changes are horrible no other way around it

He plays in light and survives just fine.

Solariken · October 2018

No, free cost on skills is bad design. They are giving the 10% bonus damage back though, which is nice.

Nicko_Lps · October 2018

bagon wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Frags can be casted at least twice as often as the Spectral Bow, and it doesn't require landing any light or heavy attacks to achieve. It wouldn't be balanced for them to do comparable damage.

Frags also don't grant minor berserk and minor endurance or a snare. So?

True, but buffing the burst damage of the class that already has the most burst doesn't seem rational. That's like saying Nightblades need better sustain.

Sorc has the most burst? Lul

MagSorc burst is struggling to compete with all other classes burst while they use full impen traits on their armor and while a sorc mostly uses 4x well fitted + 3x ifused. With the new "balance" changes sorcs have to use probably 1 piece chudan 1 piece pirate skepeton+ full impen traits that means: 40% increased roll cost, -3000magica pre bonuses -1000stamina pre bonuses.

Now the full potato burst of sorc will keep these forum whiners happy and they burst down magsorc 1 shield with 1 key and without sorc having a heal.

kaithuzar · October 2018

Just wanted to say that on live my assassins will aka bow proc misses like dodge rolling a meteor in 1.6

2ndly I’ve never seen a skill more reliablely kill me than IMPLOSION

Nicko_Lps · October 2018

kaithuzar wrote: »

Just wanted to say that on live my assassins will aka bow proc misses like dodge rolling a meteor in 1.6

2ndly I’ve never seen a skill more reliablely kill me than IMPLOSION

Implosion for magsorcs is almost useless and nerfed to ground.

While bow proc is the hardest hitting ability ingame atm.

Sure

IZZEFlameLash · October 2018

I really don't see the reason behind recent Will change. Frag damage boost is welcome in a way but the same change to Will on giving 'time to react'. Power Lash needs to be undodgeable or do more damage if they want to make it cost. But they won't probably do it. So Power Lash needs to be free as the whole normal setup costs 6~8k or so magicka in general. The changes really boggles my mind.

NyassaV · October 2018

I'm mostly upset because when I go into melee range on magblade I am typically putting myself at risk. Now the skill is already loud and slow so getting into melee is a way to get it to land easier. But hey screw that lets add a minimum travel time. You play a melee magblade? I thought we killed off those guys a few patches ago.

Minalan · October 2018

Daus wrote: »

Frags can be casted at least twice as often as the Spectral Bow, and it doesn't require landing any light or heavy attacks to achieve. It wouldn't be balanced for them to do comparable damage.

FFS I'd love to reliably proc frags after a couple of heavy attacks.

The RNG nature means that yes, a few back to back procs are statistically possible - but then so is a proc desert where you don't see anything even after 20 casts.

Will is predictable and reliable at least.

usmcjdking · October 2018

Frags cannot even be compared to Grim Focus. Frags does absolutely nothing meaningful if it's not procced, has consistency issues and Magsorc doesn't have a guaranteed way of delivering Frags like Magblade does with Fear.

They would have to make Grim Focus like the new Birds of Prey. It just passively stays on your bar and can only build on said bar.

NyassaV · October 2018

usmcjdking wrote: »

Frags cannot even be compared to Grim Focus. Frags does absolutely nothing meaningful if it's not procced, has consistency issues and Magsorc doesn't have a guaranteed way of delivering Frags like Magblade does with Fear.

They would have to make Grim Focus like the new Birds of Prey. It just passively stays on your bar and can only build on said bar.

Fear is seldom useful for landing it. Flame Clench is far better because it's a knock back.

Minalan · October 2018

usmcjdking wrote: »

Frags cannot even be compared to Grim Focus. Frags does absolutely nothing meaningful if it's not procced, has consistency issues and Magsorc doesn't have a guaranteed way of delivering Frags like Magblade does with Fear.

They would have to make Grim Focus like the new Birds of Prey. It just passively stays on your bar and can only build on said bar.

It's one of those 'perspective' things. A nightblade is only going to remember all of those time he was dunked on by a rare double or triple frag proc.

A sorc is only going to remember 20+ strings of spell casts that didn't proc anything.

In reality we know it should go off every third skill or so, but it doesn't do that and we all know it

Xvorg · October 2018

As I mentioned in another thread, this is a bad decision, not only because each skill cannot be compared to the others in terms of how they proc, but also because they belong to different classes and each class has different needs and tools.

Imho the proc is secondary to the effect. For example, lash procs on off balance enemies, which requires you to set the enemy off balance first. The "easiest" way to do that is to use immovilization or stuns, which imply spending resources, then a regular whip, and then (when the enemy is off balance) the power lash proc. It is a very expensive move on a class that is not characterized for its capacity to recover resources.
Frag proc is somewhat easier, but depending on randomness. In live it is OK, because it procs on any use of a magicka skill, the problem is that it's utility will be enormously decreased making it proc only on combat.

Those 2 skills shouldn't need a cost if they go live with those conditions. Frags is reflectable and dodgeable and the extra dmg increase do not compensates that. It's a magicka leak. Whip, which is often paired with immobility, and since immo is broken through dodge roll, then the skill will become another magicka leak

On the other hand, will is a skill that per se grants one of the best buffs in the game, which not also increeases the dmg of your skills, but also your proc. The fact that it needs 5 light attacks to work on a class that recovers resources using light attacks (proven it has siph strikes active) makes it the cheapest one. Plus, the resource recovery of NBs is naturally way better than the one of the other 2 classes, not to mention that if you kill with will, you get a big chunk of magicka. In theory it should be the only skill with a cost associated but not so much (1/2 of the cost is more than ok).

In turn, we have ZoS trying to sell a "fair" adjustment, which from any point of view is not fair. Just like a 6th grade kid reasoning: childishly straightforward.

thankyourat · October 2018

NyassaV wrote: »

I'm mostly upset because when I go into melee range on magblade I am typically putting myself at risk. Now the skill is already loud and slow so getting into melee is a way to get it to land easier. But hey screw that lets add a minimum travel time. You play a melee magblade? I thought we killed off those guys a few patches ago.

If I want to play light armor most of the time I will play melee magblade. I actually think it's better than light armor destro/resto speaking solely from a solo PvP perspective because I actually have mobility. Yes it's weak but I actually don't think light armor destro magblade is any good for solo PvP at all. You just can't move that's why I generally play heavy armor destro at least then you can heal and take some hits

lassitershawn · October 2018

Daus wrote: »

Frags can be casted at least twice as often as the Spectral Bow, and it doesn't require landing any light or heavy attacks to achieve. It wouldn't be balanced for them to do comparable damage.

Daus wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Frags can be casted at least twice as often as the Spectral Bow, and it doesn't require landing any light or heavy attacks to achieve. It wouldn't be balanced for them to do comparable damage.

Frags also don't grant minor berserk and minor endurance or a snare. So?

True, but buffing the burst damage of the class that already has the most burst doesn't seem rational. That's like saying Nightblades need better sustain.

This really isn't true. On average I get the same about the same amount of bow procs and cfrag procs on a 6m parse. Maybe a couple more frags on average but the sorc parses are both longer and sometimes necessitate casting cfrag in execute due to godawful sorc sustain. In PvP you spend even less time casting skills on front bar to proc frags because you have to spend so much time on defense (back) bar. In the case of both skills in PvP, they are often saved to use in a burst rather than immediately used (especially so with RNG frags, you won't be guaranteed another one for your burst) meaning that even if you could get more cfrags you wouldn't really end up using more. Finally, frags are not attached to a powerful self-buff that shares the same skillslot. You are also usually hitting a tankier opponent with frags due to how much easier it is to access pen debuffs on NB than on sorc. So in my opinion yes, they need comparable damage or frags needs some kind of debuff (which sorc currently has none of).

In addition, sorc burst is quite simply not the highest (and is also delayed and telegraphed with multiple components being counterable and by extension the entire burst). I'm far less worried about the burst a sorc can do to me than most stam specs and some magblade specs (with the exception of overload sorc which isn't really a serious build and is being killed anyways).