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Can you please NOT go nuclear on movement speed nerfs
NobleX35
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The main culprits to the movement speed issues realized on the live server were Swift and Forward Momentum because these two things synergized extremely well together. No one ever complained about speed issues before Swift was introduced, so instead of nerfing all sources of Major Expedition can you take smaller steps and just make the changes to Swift and Forward Momentum? While I would have preferred to see shuffle (and other sources of snare removal/immunity) buffed instead of Forward Momentum being nerfed, could you not just implement these two changes and see how they effect gameplay before changing everything else? The skill nerfs, armor nerfs, and upcoming speed pot nerfs are completely unnecessary and will have a much more negative impact on the game than would simply nerfing Swift and Forward Momentum.
"Only the dead have seen the end of war."
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GreenHere✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I tend to agree that Major Expedition uptime didn't need a nerf. I never saw any particular problem with speed builds back in the day. It's that they can now get up to 170%+ movement speed without sprinting while in combat that's the issue. You're basically untargetable when you're going that fast.
Soft capping move speed when not running seems like the better way to go. Then you don't need to hammer Swift at all; just don't let it stack so high with other speed buffs.8 -
Nox_Noir✭✭✭✭It was not swift, it was the combination of it with major expedition and other speed sources. 100% uptime major expedition from potions had much less trade-off than running 3x swift had, where you had to sacrifice 3 jewelry traits, that's like 2500-3000 max resource sacrificed for speed. Don't think that will be worth it anymore for a mere 6% at all. Another entry for the dead-trait collection
Furthermore, the already short major expedition buffs from skills where really rarely used for just the speed because they were already so short, while the buff was much more readily available from potions. The upcoming speed potion nerf next week would have been enough to cause some sort of balance here and make the speed skill buffs a little more attractive maybe, but the way it is in the patch notes, this classical ZOS round-house-nerf just kills it off completely.Edited by Nox_Noir on October 1, 2018 7:37PMSorc Tank build "Conduit" - https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/427944/conduit-sorc-tank-non-pet-build7 -
GreenHere✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭It was not swift, it was the combination of it with major expedition and other speed sources. 100% uptime major expedition from potions had much less trade-off than running 3x swift had, where you had to sacrifice 3 jewelry traits, that's like 2500-3000 max resource sacrificed for speed. Don't think that will be worth it anymore for a mere 6% at all. Another entry for the dead-trait collection
Yep, they basically ruined something that made the game a little more interesting in the choices-with-tradeoffs department. Again. Sigh...7 -
NobleX35✭✭✭✭Soft capping move speed when not running seems like the better way to go. Then you don't need to hammer Swift at all; just don't let it stack so high with other speed buffs.
I would definitely agree with this, they could have (and should have) implemented a base movement speed cap that was different than the sprint movement speed cap. This way they could have left swift otherwise alone, which would have probably made everyone much happier. Magicka characters could have gained their desired extra mobility, while stamina characters would not have been able to reach unreasonable levels of speed."Only the dead have seen the end of war."1 -
NobleX35✭✭✭✭It was not swift, it was the combination of it with major expedition and other speed sources. 100% uptime major expedition from potions had much less trade-off than running 3x swift had, where you had to sacrifice 3 jewelry traits, that's like 2500-3000 max resource sacrificed for speed. Don't think that will be worth it anymore for a mere 6% at all. Another entry for the dead-trait collection
Furthermore, the already short major expedition buffs from skills where really rarely used for just the speed because they were already so short, while the buff was much more readily available from potions. The upcoming speed potion nerf next week would have been enough to cause some sort of balance here and make the speed skill buffs a little more attractive maybe, but the way it is in the patch notes, this classical ZOS round-house-nerf just kills it off completely.
Swift was the issue...no one complained about speed problems before it was introduced. Players are able to stack base movement speed to unreasonable levels which is the problem."Only the dead have seen the end of war."6 -
GreenHere✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Soft capping move speed when not running seems like the better way to go. Then you don't need to hammer Swift at all; just don't let it stack so high with other speed buffs.
I would definitely agree with this, they could have (and should have) implemented a base movement speed cap that was different than the sprint movement speed cap. This way they could have left swift otherwise alone, which would have probably made everyone much happier. Magicka characters could have gained their desired extra mobility, while stamina characters would not have been able to reach unreasonable levels of speed.
If you really feel that way, perhaps you'd be willing to chime in on my thread about it! ;P
Maybe if it gets enough traction, someone who can consider it just might do that. (I can dream, can't I?)0 -
usmcjdking✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭It was not swift, it was the combination of it with major expedition and other speed sources. 100% uptime major expedition from potions had much less trade-off than running 3x swift had, where you had to sacrifice 3 jewelry traits, that's like 2500-3000 max resource sacrificed for speed. Don't think that will be worth it anymore for a mere 6% at all. Another entry for the dead-trait collection
Yep, they basically ruined something that made the game a little more interesting in the choices-with-tradeoffs department. Again. Sigh...
There was nothing interesting about the combination of swift w/ major exp on stamina.0331
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GreenHere✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭usmcjdking wrote: »It was not swift, it was the combination of it with major expedition and other speed sources. 100% uptime major expedition from potions had much less trade-off than running 3x swift had, where you had to sacrifice 3 jewelry traits, that's like 2500-3000 max resource sacrificed for speed. Don't think that will be worth it anymore for a mere 6% at all. Another entry for the dead-trait collection
Yep, they basically ruined something that made the game a little more interesting in the choices-with-tradeoffs department. Again. Sigh...
There was nothing interesting about the combination of swift w/ major exp on stamina.
I agree that the combination of 30% movement speed from Swift along with 30% from Major Expedition was too much. I just think that nerfing Swift directly is the wrong approach. It could be done better. It should be done better.1 -
Nox_Noir✭✭✭✭It was not swift, it was the combination of it with major expedition and other speed sources. 100% uptime major expedition from potions had much less trade-off than running 3x swift had, where you had to sacrifice 3 jewelry traits, that's like 2500-3000 max resource sacrificed for speed. Don't think that will be worth it anymore for a mere 6% at all. Another entry for the dead-trait collection
Furthermore, the already short major expedition buffs from skills where really rarely used for just the speed because they were already so short, while the buff was much more readily available from potions. The upcoming speed potion nerf next week would have been enough to cause some sort of balance here and make the speed skill buffs a little more attractive maybe, but the way it is in the patch notes, this classical ZOS round-house-nerf just kills it off completely.
Swift was the issue...no one complained about speed problems before it was introduced. Players are able to stack base movement speed to unreasonable levels which is the problem.
I understand your line of thought, but look at it this way - imagine If swift had been there since launch, and major expedition got introduced in Summerset, would you accuse expedition of causing the issue? What has been there first doesn't matter, what matters is the interaction between the different sources, and the trade-offs each require you to get access to them. Which as I said, swift had the much higher trade-offs to begin with (sacrifice 3k resources for up to 30% speed, whereas 30% speed from major expedition was almost freely available from stam pots)
Maybe a better solution would have also been not nerfing one or the other but, introducing a diminishing return for stacking them.Edited by Nox_Noir on October 1, 2018 7:47PMSorc Tank build "Conduit" - https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/427944/conduit-sorc-tank-non-pet-build0 -
NobleX35✭✭✭✭It was not swift, it was the combination of it with major expedition and other speed sources. 100% uptime major expedition from potions had much less trade-off than running 3x swift had, where you had to sacrifice 3 jewelry traits, that's like 2500-3000 max resource sacrificed for speed. Don't think that will be worth it anymore for a mere 6% at all. Another entry for the dead-trait collection
Furthermore, the already short major expedition buffs from skills where really rarely used for just the speed because they were already so short, while the buff was much more readily available from potions. The upcoming speed potion nerf next week would have been enough to cause some sort of balance here and make the speed skill buffs a little more attractive maybe, but the way it is in the patch notes, this classical ZOS round-house-nerf just kills it off completely.
Swift was the issue...no one complained about speed problems before it was introduced. Players are able to stack base movement speed to unreasonable levels which is the problem.
I understand your line of thought, but look at it this way - imagine If swift had been there since launch, and major expedition got introduced in Summerset, would you accuse expedition of causing the issue? What has been there first doesn't matter, what matters is the interaction between the different sources, and the trade-offs each require you to get access to them. Which as I said, swift had the much higher trade-offs to begin with (sacrifice 3k resources for up to 30% speed, whereas 30% speed from major expedition was almost freely available from stam pots)
Maybe a better solution would have also been not nerfing one or the other but, introducing a diminishing return for stacking them.
Fair enough, but they should have nerfed the system in a different way instead of making everything useless."Only the dead have seen the end of war."6 -
Nox_Noir✭✭✭✭Yes definetly.Sorc Tank build "Conduit" - https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/427944/conduit-sorc-tank-non-pet-build0
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pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭It was not swift, it was the combination of it with major expedition and other speed sources. 100% uptime major expedition from potions had much less trade-off than running 3x swift had, where you had to sacrifice 3 jewelry traits, that's like 2500-3000 max resource sacrificed for speed. Don't think that will be worth it anymore for a mere 6% at all. Another entry for the dead-trait collection
Furthermore, the already short major expedition buffs from skills where really rarely used for just the speed because they were already so short, while the buff was much more readily available from potions. The upcoming speed potion nerf next week would have been enough to cause some sort of balance here and make the speed skill buffs a little more attractive maybe, but the way it is in the patch notes, this classical ZOS round-house-nerf just kills it off completely.
Swift was the issue...no one complained about speed problems before it was introduced. Players are able to stack base movement speed to unreasonable levels which is the problem.
Yeah you keep repeating this over and over again. That wont make it true. Heavy armor builds running around with permanent expedition isnt something new to the game. Its literally one of the main reasons why people picked and still pick heavy over medium. With swift at least you do sacrifice something. What exactly do you lose by running speed pots? They come along with the strongest effects you can possibly get.0 -
NobleX35✭✭✭✭It was not swift, it was the combination of it with major expedition and other speed sources. 100% uptime major expedition from potions had much less trade-off than running 3x swift had, where you had to sacrifice 3 jewelry traits, that's like 2500-3000 max resource sacrificed for speed. Don't think that will be worth it anymore for a mere 6% at all. Another entry for the dead-trait collection
Furthermore, the already short major expedition buffs from skills where really rarely used for just the speed because they were already so short, while the buff was much more readily available from potions. The upcoming speed potion nerf next week would have been enough to cause some sort of balance here and make the speed skill buffs a little more attractive maybe, but the way it is in the patch notes, this classical ZOS round-house-nerf just kills it off completely.
Swift was the issue...no one complained about speed problems before it was introduced. Players are able to stack base movement speed to unreasonable levels which is the problem.
Yeah you keep repeating this over and over again. That wont make it true. Heavy armor builds running around with permanent expedition isnt something new to the game. Its literally one of the main reasons why people picked and still pick heavy over medium. With swift at least you do sacrifice something. What exactly do you lose by running speed pots? They come along with the strongest effects you can possibly get.
Health pots, crit pots, vitality pots...the list goes on..."Only the dead have seen the end of war."3 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭It was not swift, it was the combination of it with major expedition and other speed sources. 100% uptime major expedition from potions had much less trade-off than running 3x swift had, where you had to sacrifice 3 jewelry traits, that's like 2500-3000 max resource sacrificed for speed. Don't think that will be worth it anymore for a mere 6% at all. Another entry for the dead-trait collection
Furthermore, the already short major expedition buffs from skills where really rarely used for just the speed because they were already so short, while the buff was much more readily available from potions. The upcoming speed potion nerf next week would have been enough to cause some sort of balance here and make the speed skill buffs a little more attractive maybe, but the way it is in the patch notes, this classical ZOS round-house-nerf just kills it off completely.
Swift was the issue...no one complained about speed problems before it was introduced. Players are able to stack base movement speed to unreasonable levels which is the problem.
Yeah you keep repeating this over and over again. That wont make it true. Heavy armor builds running around with permanent expedition isnt something new to the game. Its literally one of the main reasons why people picked and still pick heavy over medium. With swift at least you do sacrifice something. What exactly do you lose by running speed pots? They come along with the strongest effects you can possibly get.
Health pots, crit pots, vitality pots...the list goes on...
Yeah, if only you could get other good effects with speed pots. Oh wait....
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NobleX35✭✭✭✭It was not swift, it was the combination of it with major expedition and other speed sources. 100% uptime major expedition from potions had much less trade-off than running 3x swift had, where you had to sacrifice 3 jewelry traits, that's like 2500-3000 max resource sacrificed for speed. Don't think that will be worth it anymore for a mere 6% at all. Another entry for the dead-trait collection
Furthermore, the already short major expedition buffs from skills where really rarely used for just the speed because they were already so short, while the buff was much more readily available from potions. The upcoming speed potion nerf next week would have been enough to cause some sort of balance here and make the speed skill buffs a little more attractive maybe, but the way it is in the patch notes, this classical ZOS round-house-nerf just kills it off completely.
Swift was the issue...no one complained about speed problems before it was introduced. Players are able to stack base movement speed to unreasonable levels which is the problem.
Yeah you keep repeating this over and over again. That wont make it true. Heavy armor builds running around with permanent expedition isnt something new to the game. Its literally one of the main reasons why people picked and still pick heavy over medium. With swift at least you do sacrifice something. What exactly do you lose by running speed pots? They come along with the strongest effects you can possibly get.
Health pots, crit pots, vitality pots...the list goes on...
Yeah, if only you could get other good effects with speed pots. Oh wait....
Lets also not pretend that these changes won't affect medium armor players more than heavy armor players. Medium armor depends on mobility more than heavy armor does, and these changes are only going to push more people towards heavy armor. In an era where people want the devs to stop pushing people towards heavy armor...this is the wrong way to go about it."Only the dead have seen the end of war."2 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭This is probably the most inciteful post made on the subject.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5502902/#Comment_5502902
Merely complaining about the change does nothing. To OP's points, this is not about snares at all, read the notes from the Class rep meeting held last week and you will see their thoughts.0 -
GreenHere✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭It was not swift, it was the combination of it with major expedition and other speed sources. 100% uptime major expedition from potions had much less trade-off than running 3x swift had, where you had to sacrifice 3 jewelry traits, that's like 2500-3000 max resource sacrificed for speed. Don't think that will be worth it anymore for a mere 6% at all. Another entry for the dead-trait collection
Furthermore, the already short major expedition buffs from skills where really rarely used for just the speed because they were already so short, while the buff was much more readily available from potions. The upcoming speed potion nerf next week would have been enough to cause some sort of balance here and make the speed skill buffs a little more attractive maybe, but the way it is in the patch notes, this classical ZOS round-house-nerf just kills it off completely.
Swift was the issue...no one complained about speed problems before it was introduced. Players are able to stack base movement speed to unreasonable levels which is the problem.
Yeah you keep repeating this over and over again. That wont make it true. Heavy armor builds running around with permanent expedition isnt something new to the game. Its literally one of the main reasons why people picked and still pick heavy over medium. With swift at least you do sacrifice something. What exactly do you lose by running speed pots? They come along with the strongest effects you can possibly get.
Health pots, crit pots, vitality pots...the list goes on...
Yeah, if only you could get other good effects with speed pots. Oh wait....
Lets also not pretend that these changes won't affect medium armor players more than heavy armor players. Medium armor depends on mobility more than heavy armor does, and these changes are only going to push more people towards heavy armor. In an era where people want the devs to stop pushing people towards heavy armor...this is the wrong way to go about it.
Hard to argue with that... If I can't be fast enough to avoid the damage, I need to be tough enough to bear it and keep fighting. Not like I can do that with, say, shields anymore. Heavy armor gets more appealing every time I go into any PvP activity and get nuked by people in full Heavy armor.0 -
Dashmatt✭✭✭✭The changes were surprisingly close to what I expected, but I didn’t think every single source of Major Expedition would get reduced. Can only imagine how hard speed potions are about to be nerfed, if they deemed it necessary to change Quick Cloak from 5 to 4 seconds...0
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Mintaka5✭✭✭✭✭Um yeah I wouldn't about your precious movement speed, you still got those amazing long range melee weapons, and you could always ambush or crit charge everywhere you need to be.0
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GreenHere✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The changes were surprisingly close to what I expected, but I didn’t think every single source of Major Expedition would get reduced. Can only imagine how hard speed potions are about to be nerfed, if they deemed it necessary to change Quick Cloak from 5 to 4 seconds...
"Reduced the Major Expedition time Essence of Speed grants to 4.7 seconds, from 47.5 seconds at rank 3 of Medicinal Use"
Spoiler: Developer Comments
[lol, get ZOS'd, suckas!]Edited by GreenHere on October 1, 2018 8:36PM2 -
Rikumaru✭✭✭✭✭
✭Imo revert every nerf to the major expedition skills, buff shuffle to 8s and give passive move speed buff on medium armor. Still with dodge roll nerfs I don't see people switching from heavy even if this happened.Overload rework. Power Overload now does physical damage and grants you the power of a tornado: You throw a brick at the target with a light attack, and you hammer your head into that brick with every heavy attack. We have decreased its Ultimate cost, but increased the chance that you get stuck in the animation.1 -
Gnozo✭✭✭✭✭
✭No one wanted speed pots nerfed. The problem was swift + major expedition + forward momentum. Nerf swift so it wont be this strong anymore. Leave speed pots alone. Like already mentioned movement speed was never a complain point before swift times.
Why not making smal changes and see how they work on live servers? Why you guys always need to go balls deep in nerfing everything to the ground like movement speed and shields with this patch.
You literally take everything away that helps smaller groups to survive in cyro. Keep buffing nightblades and no brain zergs. Thanks for nothing, zos.6 -
kojou✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I have mixed feelings about this nerf as well... It seems like they want to standardize on 4 seconds. I wish they would have standardized on 8, but they didn't nerf rapid maneuvers or speed potions yet so at least there is that...
Playing since beta...0 -
GreenHere✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I have mixed feelings about this nerf as well... It seems like they want to standardize on 4 seconds. I wish they would have standardized on 8, but they didn't nerf rapid maneuvers or speed potions yet so at least there is that...
I'm guessing sometime in 2019 or 2020, they'll "buff" expedition uptimes back up to 8-10 seconds. It will literally take them that long somehow, to realize what most of the community can see within the first 40 seconds of thinking about it. And then they'll still botch it.0 -
katorga✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I could have sworn in the 9.25 meeting notes they said major expedition was not a problem, and here they go nerfing major expedition across the board.
The specifically called out potions are on the chopping block too.Edited by katorga on October 1, 2018 9:45PM0 -
katorga✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭It will be really funny if they nerf movement speed down to the bare minimum, and the targeting problems remain!0 -
John_Falstaff✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I still don't get what sort of offender Vicious Ophidian set is. I can't imagine it being abused in PvP. It's not pushing balance around. It already has a trade-off built in: it's not a damage set, it's a sustain and utility set, using it means sacrificing damage. Why?..3
