The impact of the crit change on sorcs

Biro123 · October 2018

I wrote this (or near enough) in another thread - which has been removed for some reason - not sure why.. I'm a bit narked about it to be fair, since it took a while to write it up..

But here's one example to illustrate the impact the changes have on sorcs. This is mostly aimed at those who don't play sorc in PVP - and so don't get the impact.

I'm not even going into the 40% cap except to say that it is an additional limit on top of this which will need to be catered for when tweaking a build.

So, Crits and Resists. Lets take a typical PVP sorc setup and look at the impact of these changes on that build. That build being Shackle/Lich, 1xDomi, 1xIG, 4x well-fitted, all spell-dmg jewels.

Firstly remember that a sorc NEEDS to be able to survive for at least 3 seconds under pressure without casting any defensive abilities in that time to be able to land his timed burst - so this is to try and make sorc shields, point-for-point almost as strong as before.

So firstly to handle the extra crit damage, lets switch a set for all-impen, fortified brass. Since its easier to compare, lets drop Shackle. To start with, SUSTAIN is hit - which is a must-have. We lose 1 stam and 1 mag recov bonus - so lets cater for that by simply swapping out 2x damage jewellery bits for 1 stam and 1 mag recov.
Secondly, Our off-stat is hit (stam) by 2k which is again a must-have for those all-important dodges/break-free's - so lets switch IG for a max-stam monster piece instead.

So far the build has lost:
3x damage bonuses
3x mag bonuses
1x stam bonus
4x well-fitted

If we're still not happy with the well-fitted hit, maybe switch out another jewel spell-damage bonus for stam - so..

4x damage bonuses
3x magica bonuses
1x stamina bonus
4x well-fitted (mitigated a bit)

Maybe doesn't sound *too* bad - but what's left? What we have here is a setup with comparable sustain as before, probably comparable shield-strength, less ability to dodge, but able to take more unshielded hits. I think that's all fairly close defensively - perhaps *slightly* better - hard to say until tested and until the 40% cap is accounted for.

But what is it left with for damage?
A build that started with just over 42k mag, now loses around 4k(taking race/CP bonuses into account) - so lets say it now has 38k max mag. but it also has zero spell-damage bonuses in the whole build. Let me say that again - ZERO spell-damage bonuses.
That's around 1.5-1.6k spell-damage (with major sorc, without berserker enchant), and 38k max mag.

Now you tell me, what capable stamina build runs 1600 weapon-damage and 38k stam?

I'd like to say that its balanced by having access to more buffs/debuffs than other classes - but we all know how that goes!

Yeah, I know its just a quick example, not thought about, tweaked, optimised etc. - there will be better builds - but they probably won't be much better given the constraints on sustain and setting up timed burst.
Note the key here is 'timed'. As soon as you interrupt your offensive burst setup to do something defensive, you have to start it again - so your build NEEDS to be able to take that 3-seconds of pressure without flinching. It's not like sorc has tons of dots and strong anytimes that it can just slap on when it gets a small offensive opening, and have them all add up. It NEEDS that set-up time.

I just hope this illustrates the impact of the crit/resists change alone. (I also think its a step in the right direction - but sorc needs strong buffs in other areas to compensate for it).

Feanor · October 2018

@Biro123

Or, in a much shorter version - if I want to play a PvP tank, I can do that much better on any other class.

Biro123 · October 2018

Feanor wrote: »

@Biro123

Or, in a much shorter version - if I want to play a PvP tank, I can do that much better on any other class.

Haha - yeah.. it's pretty much what magsorc is forced into now. With so little damage left, may as well go the whole hog and full-on tank!

Lord-Otto · October 2018

Yup, AP piñatas soon...

CasNation · October 2018

Thanks for writing this out. I feel like a lot of people dont really understand how a sorc is built in PvP, or how they operate.

I have seen the argument recently that sorc just needs to "swap out one of their 2 damage sets for Impreg"...not sure what damage sets they are talking about since sorc doesn't run any pure damage sets....

I think a lot of the problems peolple have with sorcs (both those who play sorcs and those who don't) are centered around their very powerful (but highly telgraphed and interruptable) burst combo. Literally every damage-oriented sorc runs it. If you take all of the burst, you die, pretty much no matter what. But, you remove one piece and the whole thing falls apart because the sorc has no sustained pressure.

It's unfortunate, but it feels like the sorc's whole kit needs a rework at this point.

Waffennacht · October 2018

Biro123 wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

@Biro123

Or, in a much shorter version - if I want to play a PvP tank, I can do that much better on any other class.

Haha - yeah.. it's pretty much what magsorc is forced into now. With so little damage left, may as well go the whole hog and full-on tank!

Even then...

Sorc doesn't get passive mitigation (such as dmg reduction passives, HoTs, vitality or mending, Trellis, DK's HoTs, Templar purge/hot, cloaks mitigation or spot heal)

You mentioned fortified brass, well unfortunately for Sorcs that whole set is countered by major fracture.

As you already mentioned spell damage takes a huge dive - in No CP spell damage has more modifiers, therefore spell damage is the more efficient choice (and sorc can't get it)

Sorc has half a tree soley scaling to Max mag - unviable in PvP

Even as a full blown tank, every class does That better too.

(I have created or attempted to, create full blown sorc tanks - why bother when healthden blows it away?)

Oh and crit resistance (or any resistance) costs the same spots as max mag

On every other mag class you can run below 30k max mag and still be viable; not true with sorc

Oh and cast times, not even Templars have as many cast time abilities now

usmguy1234 · October 2018

CasNation wrote: »

Thanks for writing this out. I feel like a lot of people dont really understand how a sorc is built in PvP, or how they operate.

I have seen the argument recently that sorc just needs to "swap out one of their 2 damage sets for Impreg"...not sure what damage sets they are talking about since sorc doesn't run any pure damage sets....

I think a lot of the problems peolple have with sorcs (both those who play sorcs and those who don't) are centered around their very powerful (but highly telgraphed and interruptable) burst combo. Literally every damage-oriented sorc runs it. If you take all of the burst, you die, pretty much no matter what. But, you remove one piece and the whole thing falls apart because the sorc has no sustained pressure.

It's unfortunate, but it feels like the sorc's whole kit needs a rework at this point.

Problem is most sorcs are running 2 sustain sets or sets that stack max magicka to have better defenses. We can nuke most medium and light armor opponents but your average fotm heavy wearer has to make many mistakes to get in to execution range vs a sorc.

grannas211 · October 2018

Fortified Brass is such a bad set. Im shivering at the thought,

Hixtory · October 2018

Even that Im against the nerf why were you able to wear 4 well fitted. If that forces you to have to wear impen like the rest of the world, then this change is fine.

And every stam builds, run around with 28k/32k stamina, even redguards can most have 35/36k, so I dont get why are you complaining about the 38k magicka

Even with this, I do hope they increase the shield cap to 60% health.

IAVITNI · October 2018

ZoS gives nerfs, and ZoS taketh away viability

The logic behind removing viability and not compensating at all on a class that was not over-performing is actually pretty impressive.

At the very least they could provide QoL changes on our mobility and defensive skills. If they removed delays from Streak and the cost increase, the hit to shields would probably be manageable without requiring sorcs to run a dedicated defensive set.

The nerf to Dark Deal should have been accompanied by a reduction in the cast time back to 1 second.

And ffs, can the Daedric Summoning passives be useful to more than just pet sorcs, a subset that is the vast minority of the actual class, at least in high-end play.

Lastly, I think the journey of Rune Cage perfectly illustrates ZoS' competency levels.

Sygil05 · October 2018

Hixtory wrote: »

Even that Im against the nerf why were you able to wear 4 well fitted. If that forces you to have to wear impen like the rest of the world, then this change is fine.

And every stam builds, run around with 28k/32k stamina, even redguards can most have 35/36k, so I dont get why are you complaining about the 38k magicka

Even with this, I do hope they increase the shield cap to 60% health.

What kind of weapon damage and stamina recovery do those stam builds you're referring to run? I bet both are a lot higher than the typical light armor magicka build.

Biro123 · October 2018

Sygil05 wrote: »

Hixtory wrote: »

Even that Im against the nerf why were you able to wear 4 well fitted. If that forces you to have to wear impen like the rest of the world, then this change is fine.

And every stam builds, run around with 28k/32k stamina, even redguards can most have 35/36k, so I dont get why are you complaining about the 38k magicka

Even with this, I do hope they increase the shield cap to 60% health.

What kind of weapon damage and stamina recovery do those stam builds you're referring to run? I bet both are a lot higher than the typical light armor magicka build.

My stamblade has around 4k weapon-damage, just over 30k stam - and sustains and survives better than my magsorc does on live.
Also worth mentioning that 38k max mag left on that sorc setup, may also need to be dropped further in favour of health if its over the 40% shield mark.. I don't know if it is or not - so didn't really go into it.

Bergzorn · October 2018

I don't see the problem, just use siege if you want to DD.

Urgh.

Feanor · October 2018

Bergzorn wrote: »

I don't see the problem, just use siege if you want to DD.
Urgh.

Or bring 30 friends and spam Fury. Exciting.

mojomood · October 2018

usmguy1234 wrote: »

CasNation wrote: »

Thanks for writing this out. I feel like a lot of people dont really understand how a sorc is built in PvP, or how they operate.

I have seen the argument recently that sorc just needs to "swap out one of their 2 damage sets for Impreg"...not sure what damage sets they are talking about since sorc doesn't run any pure damage sets....

I think a lot of the problems peolple have with sorcs (both those who play sorcs and those who don't) are centered around their very powerful (but highly telgraphed and interruptable) burst combo. Literally every damage-oriented sorc runs it. If you take all of the burst, you die, pretty much no matter what. But, you remove one piece and the whole thing falls apart because the sorc has no sustained pressure.

It's unfortunate, but it feels like the sorc's whole kit needs a rework at this point.

Problem is most sorcs are running 2 sustain sets or sets that stack max magicka to have better defenses. We can nuke most medium and light armor opponents but your average fotm heavy wearer has to make many mistakes to get in to execution range vs a sorc.

This is really the issue. The Heavy Armor stam meta with 2 proc damage sets, permanent Major Expedition (+ a swift or minor) + permanent snare immunity is too strong. Someone in heavy armor should not be able to be nuked, but they should also not have that much mobility and damage.

I know sorcs don't like to hear it, but shielding was too strong in PvE and PvP. A sorc should be able to nuke light and medium armor targets from range but should have significant issues if being attacked. I've seen sorcs face tank multiple players wailing on them because of shields. I would rather see the cost increase on streak reduced than uber shields again. I want light armor to be the high mobility based on using skills, medium to be high mobility based on armor passives, and heavy to not be very mobile. The problem is that Heavy Armor stam is just too good.

usmguy1234 · October 2018

mojomood wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

CasNation wrote: »

Thanks for writing this out. I feel like a lot of people dont really understand how a sorc is built in PvP, or how they operate.

I have seen the argument recently that sorc just needs to "swap out one of their 2 damage sets for Impreg"...not sure what damage sets they are talking about since sorc doesn't run any pure damage sets....

I think a lot of the problems peolple have with sorcs (both those who play sorcs and those who don't) are centered around their very powerful (but highly telgraphed and interruptable) burst combo. Literally every damage-oriented sorc runs it. If you take all of the burst, you die, pretty much no matter what. But, you remove one piece and the whole thing falls apart because the sorc has no sustained pressure.

It's unfortunate, but it feels like the sorc's whole kit needs a rework at this point.

Problem is most sorcs are running 2 sustain sets or sets that stack max magicka to have better defenses. We can nuke most medium and light armor opponents but your average fotm heavy wearer has to make many mistakes to get in to execution range vs a sorc.

This is really the issue. The Heavy Armor stam meta with 2 proc damage sets, permanent Major Expedition (+ a swift or minor) + permanent snare immunity is too strong. Someone in heavy armor should not be able to be nuked, but they should also not have that much mobility and damage.

I know sorcs don't like to hear it, but shielding was too strong in PvE and PvP. A sorc should be able to nuke light and medium armor targets from range but should have significant issues if being attacked. I've seen sorcs face tank multiple players wailing on them because of shields. I would rather see the cost increase on streak reduced than uber shields again. I want light armor to be the high mobility based on using skills, medium to be high mobility based on armor passives, and heavy to not be very mobile. The problem is that Heavy Armor stam is just too good.

I've seen it too but there is usually a common theme... those people are usually low cp spamming light attacks and no roots, stuns or cc's against really good maxed cp sorc with golded out gear. It's nothing that any other class couldn't do as well if not better given the same circumstances.

FlamingBeard · October 2018

Magicka Sorcerers up to this point have been able to stack Max Magicka (even with Swift jewelry, you can stack Magicka like pancakes on a Sorcerer) and be effectively as tanky as most heavy armor users (if the Sorcerer in question is a good player) while still finding enough room for sustain mechanisms and plenty of burst damage, due to the high Max Magicka. And on top of all this, Sorcerer is the most mobile Magicka spec in the game.

Now, the direction ZOS is headed, they want everyone to be forced to sacrifice tankiness for damage, or damage for sustain, etc.

Sorcerers on Live are pretty strong compared even to other magicka specs in terms of learning curve, viability in most PvP situations, and the return on investment you receive for becoming good at the class.

In comparison, magTemplars or MagDKs have been a lot harder to manage in PvP than Sorcerer because these other two classes lack any self-mobility functions whatsoever and they've gradually lost passives and had skills nerfed which made it so that neither of these two snail-speed classes can be very strong AND tanky AND sustain their resources at the same time.

Magplars and magDKs (who both rely on DoTs and wearing an enemy down at melee range) have had to deal with the Forward Momentum/Swift meta rendering Templar's snares and DK's immobilizations unviable or outright useless in many situations in PvP.

Compare this to Sorcerer, with Ball of Lightning which absorbs projectiles and beams and teleports the user + can stun enemies, Boundless Storm the defense buff which also gives Major Expedition, as well as a long-range unblockable stun and the largest damage shield in the game and some of the best long-range damage in all of PvP... no good Sorcerer has had any excuse for the past couple updates to complain at all.

Sure they're still sorting out the issues of rebalancing, but something needed to be done about damage shields and their over-tuned effectiveness.

Beardimus · October 2018

Waffennacht wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

@Biro123

Or, in a much shorter version - if I want to play a PvP tank, I can do that much better on any other class.

Haha - yeah.. it's pretty much what magsorc is forced into now. With so little damage left, may as well go the whole hog and full-on tank!

Even then...

Sorc doesn't get passive mitigation (such as dmg reduction passives, HoTs, vitality or mending, Trellis, DK's HoTs, Templar purge/hot, cloaks mitigation or spot heal)

You mentioned fortified brass, well unfortunately for Sorcs that whole set is countered by major fracture.

As you already mentioned spell damage takes a huge dive - in No CP spell damage has more modifiers, therefore spell damage is the more efficient choice (and sorc can't get it)

Sorc has half a tree soley scaling to Max mag - unviable in PvP

Even as a full blown tank, every class does That better too.

(I have created or attempted to, create full blown sorc tanks - why bother when healthden blows it away?)

Oh and crit resistance (or any resistance) costs the same spots as max mag

On every other mag class you can run below 30k max mag and still be viable; not true with sorc

Oh and cast times, not even Templars have as many cast time abilities now

Spot on @Biro123 & @Waffennacht

It's frustrating we have to point this all out even.

And the nerf sorc blade brigdade aren't even finished yet, calls for Impreg nerfs etc its never ending direct & indirect.

Waffennacht · October 2018

FlamingBeard wrote: »

Magicka Sorcerers up to this point have been able to stack Max Magicka (even with Swift jewelry, you can stack Magicka like pancakes on a Sorcerer) and be effectively as tanky as most heavy armor users (if the Sorcerer in question is a good player) while still finding enough room for sustain mechanisms and plenty of burst damage, due to the high Max Magicka. And on top of all this, Sorcerer is the most mobile Magicka spec in the game.

Now, the direction ZOS is headed, they want everyone to be forced to sacrifice tankiness for damage, or damage for sustain, etc.

Sorcerers on Live are pretty strong compared even to other magicka specs in terms of learning curve, viability in most PvP situations, and the return on investment you receive for becoming good at the class.

In comparison, magTemplars or MagDKs have been a lot harder to manage in PvP than Sorcerer because these other two classes lack any self-mobility functions whatsoever and they've gradually lost passives and had skills nerfed which made it so that neither of these two snail-speed classes can be very strong AND tanky AND sustain their resources at the same time.

Magplars and magDKs (who both rely on DoTs and wearing an enemy down at melee range) have had to deal with the Forward Momentum/Swift meta rendering Templar's snares and DK's immobilizations unviable or outright useless in many situations in PvP.

Compare this to Sorcerer, with Ball of Lightning which absorbs projectiles and beams and teleports the user + can stun enemies, Boundless Storm the defense buff which also gives Major Expedition, as well as a long-range unblockable stun and the largest damage shield in the game and some of the best long-range damage in all of PvP... no good Sorcerer has had any excuse for the past couple updates to complain at all.

Sure they're still sorting out the issues of rebalancing, but something needed to be done about damage shields and their over-tuned effectiveness.

I would say NB's shade + cloak etc (that doesn't have an increase in cost per use) makes mNB more mobile than Sorc

Every mag build can stack max mag - but more importantly doesn't have to because scaling to spell damage as well as Mac mag is a benefit and not a hindrance. Sorc has no defensive measures aside from shield (NB, warden, Templars and DKs can all stack Hots and burst heals) and do not rely on shields as much

Shields are strong in PvE ATM. A typical shield in PvP BG will have a smaller tooltip than almost any Stam based attack (after BS) if a shield lasts longer than 1/2 attacks - it's the opposing build's weak damage that's at fault

Ball of lightning is pretty meh in a Stam based meta, streak is my go to. Streak really can't have the increase cost dropped, it'll be way too good imo.

Some general thoughts I had when reading your response