This is going to upset the forums but Shieldless Sorc test

RebornV3x · September 2018

not to knock you build in particular but these builds people are coming up with to adapt to the shield change are garbage I would never think to run half of these sets on live good try but after 4 years or so I might have to shelf my sorc I'm not liking at all what im seeing in these builds maybe this build and others like it are the next meta who knows but I want no part of it

IZZEFlameLash · September 2018

1st round is so easy that I can complete it with tank/healer setup. No DPS build required. The fact that you have to run sets like Fortified Brass just to survive is really bad for build diversity.

X3ina · September 2018

Its not hard to complete vMA without a shield on a sorc, and you don't have to use a healing pet aswell. All you need is more than average knowledge about arena, power surge and both of your aoe dots. As long as you keep killing stuff fast it will work

Vahrokh · September 2018

codestripper wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

And if it's not aimed at PvP sorcs it's aimed at PvE sorcs. A pure DPS class that now is going to fail at DPS. So useful!

I think you misunderstand, I'm not trying to defend the shield nerf at all, my playstyle for over 3 years has been based around shields. I was just saying that this post was not aimed at PvP'ers, and that you can by all means still do solo content with the new sorc.

By all means, there's some guys who, like me, are dumb enough to run trials. We just got smashed and we aren't even allowed to take pets in trials, much less a clannfear.

Toc de Malsvi · September 2018

I appreciate your attempts to test it yourself and see what you can do.

Brass Fortress is overkill though on resistances. It might be more useful in later rounds, but you aren't getting much value out of your Power Surge cause your health is staying near max.

Toc de Malsvi · September 2018

With shields though and you can be extremely tanky without having to run a defensive set. Just need to treat the shields as a buff instead of a heal.

Toc de Malsvi · September 2018

For solo PVE the new shields allow you to be much stronger than before with less investment.

For group PVE the style of play where you wait till the last second and cast a shield, to survive boss mechanics, is being done away with. This is going to make many end game PVE mechanics significantly more difficult.

Some things are even more powerful because of this, Major resistance buffs for example. This is a notible buff for Wardens value to a group as well as to the Barrier ultimate.

DocFrost72 · September 2018

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

For solo PVE the new shields allow you to be much stronger than before with less investment.

For group PVE the style of play where you wait till the last second and cast a shield, to survive boss mechanics, is being done away with. This is going to make many end game PVE mechanics significantly more difficult.

Some things are even more powerful because of this, Major resistance buffs for example. This is a notible buff for Wardens value to a group as well as to the Barrier ultimate.

Bingo ^

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

1st round is so easy that I can complete it with tank/healer setup. No DPS build required. The fact that you have to run sets like Fortified Brass just to survive is really bad for build diversity.

1st round is the only difficult dps test in the entire arena. 5 is a dps test, but not till the boss is in execute. This round proves it has the damage for maelstrom.

I don't need fort has to survive, I enjoy using it in there though. On my stamplar, for example, it is only a 10% dps loss over hunding's (27 to 30).

DocFrost72 · September 2018

Vahrokh wrote: »

codestripper wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

What does this prove? You put on a tanky set that gives you absolutely horrendous stats and say defense is fine? Kill a dummy with that regen and max magic and call me in the morning.

Glass cannon sorcs on live dont even need a shield for VMA. The problem is not with scripted content that most people know like the back of their hand. The problem is with reactive and dynamic combat like you find in PVP. A sorc is the only class that will have to wait to react in order to use their main defense. That is the problem.

DocFrost72 wrote: »

You may bring up the state of pvp sorcs, but I will largely not respond to them as there are countless threads on that already. This was a response to the concerns of sorcs being entirely dead for SOLO pve, which I count as a little absurd. At least in the realm of soloing and maelstrom, they are very much still capable of tankiness, sustain, and survivability. Come next patch, will be swapping out meteor for Overload for sustain and damage buff.

To be fair I also don't think that build could parse a dummy very high, but he already addressed that this thread is not aimed toward PvP sorcs.

And if it's not aimed at PvP sorcs it's aimed at PvE sorcs. A pure DPS class that now is going to fail at DPS. So useful!

I was unaware soloing required you to spec as pure dps. Before the shield change sorcs were king (mag AND stam) of solo. Post update, they still are.

I can't parse on a sorc to save my life. Irrelevant here though since this entire thread was predicated on solo gameplay.

Karm1cOne · September 2018

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

codestripper wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

What does this prove? You put on a tanky set that gives you absolutely horrendous stats and say defense is fine? Kill a dummy with that regen and max magic and call me in the morning.

Glass cannon sorcs on live dont even need a shield for VMA. The problem is not with scripted content that most people know like the back of their hand. The problem is with reactive and dynamic combat like you find in PVP. A sorc is the only class that will have to wait to react in order to use their main defense. That is the problem.

DocFrost72 wrote: »

You may bring up the state of pvp sorcs, but I will largely not respond to them as there are countless threads on that already. This was a response to the concerns of sorcs being entirely dead for SOLO pve, which I count as a little absurd. At least in the realm of soloing and maelstrom, they are very much still capable of tankiness, sustain, and survivability. Come next patch, will be swapping out meteor for Overload for sustain and damage buff.

To be fair I also don't think that build could parse a dummy very high, but he already addressed that this thread is not aimed toward PvP sorcs.

And if it's not aimed at PvP sorcs it's aimed at PvE sorcs. A pure DPS class that now is going to fail at DPS. So useful!

I was unaware soloing required you to spec as pure dps. Before the shield change sorcs were king (mag AND stam) of solo. Post update, they still are.

I can't parse on a sorc to save my life. Irrelevant here though since this entire thread was predicated on solo gameplay.

Sorcs are kings of solo due to pets, not shields. They allow certain mechanics requiring two people to be passed, such as the 1st boss WGT, where a person is sent to the cages. Any other class soloing, the boss resets.

Zoal_AUG · September 2018

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

What does this prove? You put on a tanky set that gives you absolutely horrendous stats and say defense is fine? Kill a dummy with that regen and max magic and call me in the morning.

Glass cannon sorcs on live dont even need a shield for VMA. The problem is not with scripted content that most people know like the back of their hand. The problem is with reactive and dynamic combat like you find in PVP. A sorc is the only class that will have to wait to react in order to use their main defense. That is the problem.

The problem is that ur ez defense is a problem to pvp. It is to easy it doesent require anything just click. why light armor then dont buffs healing for classes that dont have reliable shields? play mag dk and hf using dgb to heal in light armor.

Juhasow · September 2018

Dont be silly. Even now on live magsorc especially with pets barely needs to use shields in vMA without even wearing any tanky sets. Sorry to tell You that but You literally proved nothing with this vids @DocFrost72 .

Also actually when it comes to vMA having 14 seconds shield is kinda a buff sinnce You can prebuff Yourself in well known enviroment and now that 14 seconds Empowered Ward with resistances will have similar strenght to live server Hardened Ward. If You want to test shields change dont choose the content where it have little impact. What is actually upsetting is that people can take things completly out of context and provide as prove for some theory due to the ignorane or lack of understanding to the subject.

PS. Fact that shieldless sorc or shields can be still occasionally usefull doesnt mean playstyle will be still fun and enjoyable to play which is also one of the bigger concerns when it comes to cast time change..

DeadlyRecluse · September 2018

Round 1 is insanely easy though--heck, vMA isn't really a "test" for shieldless PvE. Lots of specs do vMA shieldless...

The area where instashields were critical (perhaps too critical, but w/e) was trials with large, unavoidable damage mechanics. vMA doesn't really have that.

Sparr0w · September 2018

X3ina wrote: »

Its not hard to complete vMA without a shield on a sorc, and you don't have to use a healing pet aswell. All you need is more than average knowledge about arena, power surge and both of your aoe dots. As long as you keep killing stuff fast it will work

Agreed, I've run vMA without shields on magsorc & magblade.

Sorc: Run Surge, Storm & Conversion
Blade: Run Funnel, Refreshing & Mirage

Tho I still stick to 1s cast time will make shields useless and mag builds a lot more squishy. Since heals are sub par on mag and they can't avoid damage like stam can.

DocFrost72 · September 2018

I don't know how many times I can say "sorcs will not be dead for solo play because of the shield change" only to have my statement strawmanned to death.

Trials, PvP, PvE dps parses are all entirely irrelevant to this post, this build, and this test.

From the unedited original post, in case some need to read it again:

"This was a response to the concerns of sorcs being entirely dead for SOLO pve, which I count as a little absurd. At least in the realm of soloing and maelstrom, they are very much still capable of tankiness, sustain, and survivability."

Juhasow wrote: »

Dont be silly. Even now on live magsorc especially with pets barely needs to use shields in vMA without even wearing any tanky sets. Sorry to tell You that but You literally proved nothing with this vids @DocFrost72 .

You legit proved my point here.

What is actually upsetting is that people can take things completly out of context and provide as prove for some theory due to the ignorane or lack of understanding to the subject.

You're telling me.

Joy_Division · September 2018

Yeah, Round One of VMA thoroughly trounced by a "shieldless" sorcerer!

I do find it odd that you are using the only magicka-based shield ZOS did not put a cast time on for survival. Instead of using the old instant-cast Hardened Ward, you use only instant--cast shield left. Not a very convincing "shieldless" test.

Avnr · September 2018

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDv_0BKu9kg

VMA Naked sorc

Merlin13KAGL · September 2018

Trying to understand the purpose behind this, considering how much of a change you presumably had to do to your build.

Tri-Stat food? 19k Health, Fortified Brass?

AuraNebula · September 2018

codestripper wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

5 fortified brass,
2 skoria,
5 mother's sorrow,
6 light 1 heavy, all divines (I have infused chest and pants but will be swapping them).

Also, this makes me sad.

Seriously to survive op had to use a tanking set. Makes me cringe.

DocFrost72 · September 2018

I don't know how many times I can say "sorcs will not be dead for solo play because of the shield change" only to have my statement strawmanned to death.

Trials, PvP, PvE dp parse are all entirely irrelevant to this post, this build, and this test.

Joy_Division wrote: »

Yeah, Round One of VMA thoroughly trounced by a "shieldless" sorcerer!

I do find it odd that you are using the only magicka-based shield ZOS did not put a cast time on for survival. Instead of using the old instant-cast Hardened Ward, you use only instant--cast shield left. Not a very convincing "shieldless" test.

Now this is criticism the build deserves. I will take healing ward off and redo it without, even if I could make a (weak) argument that current hardened versus backbar resto ward aren't really alike.

DocFrost72 · September 2018

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Trying to understand the purpose behind this, considering how much of a change you presumably had to do to your build.

Tri-Stat food? 19k Health, Fortified Brass?

That you can solo things without ward, let alone with a changed cast time ward.

raj72616a · September 2018

if a class has to resort to Fortified Brass to survive solo pve, that class is dead to me.

daemonor · September 2018

Like the cp cap is 780 alreayd and people are still debating about vma and trying to reinvent the wheel...like for gods sake you have to try hard NOT to beat it with 3 dps sets on any class in an hour more or less. What shields or defensive sets could u possibly need? Just slot a resto staff if you're so EXCUSE ME bad, and healing ward when in doubt. End of story.

Juhasow · September 2018

DocFrost72 wrote: »

I don't know how many times I can say "sorcs will not be dead for solo play because of the shield change" only to have my statement strawmanned to death.

Trials, PvP, PvE dps parses are all entirely irrelevant to this post, this build, and this test.

From the unedited original post, in case some need to read it again:

"This was a response to the concerns of sorcs being entirely dead for SOLO pve, which I count as a little absurd. At least in the realm of soloing and maelstrom, they are very much still capable of tankiness, sustain, and survivability."

Juhasow wrote: »

Dont be silly. Even now on live magsorc especially with pets barely needs to use shields in vMA without even wearing any tanky sets. Sorry to tell You that but You literally proved nothing with this vids @DocFrost72 .

You legit proved my point here.

What is actually upsetting is that people can take things completly out of context and provide as prove for some theory due to the ignorane or lack of understanding to the subject.

You're telling me.

Seriously out of all the people concerned about shield nerfs how many is concerned about solo PvE ? 5% , less ?

As to proving Your point I can go further and say that most of magicka characters on live server barely needs to use shields in vMA sorc is not eny exception here so what actually You proved with Your tests ? Even with cast time on shields vMA is so repeatable and predictable content that You can easily prepare Yourself for incoming dmg since You know when it'll come.

Barely anyone who knows how to do vMA is concerned about magsorc in solo PvE after Murkmire so why do You think this "new information" You provided is going to upset anyone ?

DeadlyRecluse · September 2018

Yeah, solo PvE literally isn't where any of the concern is coming from.

I can make a video showing that crafting, questing, 4man vet dungeons, vMA, gathering resources, and dolmen farming is largely unaffected by shield change, too.

That doesn't really address the actual pain points of the change--trials (for ALL mag classes, not just sorcs) and PvP (primarily for mag sorcs, but some other specs as well).

Vahrokh · September 2018

DocFrost72 wrote: »

I don't know how many times I can say "sorcs will not be dead for solo play because of the shield change" only to have my statement strawmanned to death.

Trials, PvP, PvE dps parses are all entirely irrelevant to this post, this build, and this test.

It's because you have created a giant strawman. By using a tank set on a pure DPS class and by using an instance that does not require a shield you infer that this is still Ok and viable and - by indirect deduction - that we'll be fine.

No, everyone else, who are "strawmanning you", are loudly responding to your "demonstration" how you are just trying to derail the true focus point, which is hm 4 men, vet trials, PvP.

Go, go and show how useful you are with your dwarf DPS in vMOL, or how useful you are doing portals in vCR or how good you do at vHOF 2nd boss upper floor.

Even skipping this, I've seen people doing 25% more damage than you being refused into vet trials. Because NO-BO-DY, even average guilds - have an use for a DPS class that cannot DPS.

Not only that. If I got you in my 4 men groups I'd vote kick, because on my Combat Metrics I'd see me doing 70% of the group DPS and I don't like freeriders.

IZZEFlameLash · September 2018

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

For solo PVE the new shields allow you to be much stronger than before with less investment.

For group PVE the style of play where you wait till the last second and cast a shield, to survive boss mechanics, is being done away with. This is going to make many end game PVE mechanics significantly more difficult.

Some things are even more powerful because of this, Major resistance buffs for example. This is a notible buff for Wardens value to a group as well as to the Barrier ultimate.

Bingo ^

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

1st round is so easy that I can complete it with tank/healer setup. No DPS build required. The fact that you have to run sets like Fortified Brass just to survive is really bad for build diversity.

1st round is the only difficult dps test in the entire arena. 5 is a dps test, but not till the boss is in execute. This round proves it has the damage for maelstrom.

I don't need fort has to survive, I enjoy using it in there though. On my stamplar, for example, it is only a 10% dps loss over hunding's (27 to 30).

How is it 'the only difficult dps test'? Are you trying to tell us all that the round with barely any mechanics and/or with minions that may overwhelm you if you don't deal with those is more difficult to get the DPS test on?

Strider__Roshin · September 2018

You guys really are used to not paying attention eh? How do you think medium survives? Dodge rolling and Vigor? Vigor certainly helps, but it's primarily due to bursting priority targets, and paying attention. Damage shields have carried magicka for so long I'm starting to wonder if you forget how to play the game.

Cronopoly · September 2018

Daus wrote: »

You guys really are used to not paying attention eh? How do you think medium survives? Dodge rolling and Vigor? Vigor certainly helps, but it's primarily due to bursting priority targets, and paying attention. Damage shields have carried magicka for so long I'm starting to wonder if you forget how to play the game.

Medium survives with a ton of INSTANT abilities, their best Defense being Offensive 1st by pressure, some snatching 80% of an enemies health (from Stealth) before an enemy player can React. Or instantly Breaking Free after CC..Oh Wait our 2 weeks of Rune Cage is over, Gap Close, and go 100% ham, Spam Execute)

Someone squatting trying to shield...Yeah.

Obviously Vigor Stacks like crazy not much different than shields

Which makes even some 4-6 party grouped PVPer's nigh unkillable by less than a Raid group.

But back on topic, nearly every Sorc agree's Stacking 50K worth of virtual Shields (3) was too much. However, Cast time as proposed makes no sense as the PVE Mechanics and Real players we go against every day in PVP dictate some form of defense needed NOW or Light Armor wearers will be 1 shot. And IF Healing Ward was guaranteed to land on me it might be different somewhat.

How would you like to Roll Dodge and your realm mate 5 feet away from you get the 100% Dodge chance, cause he's prettier than you.

That's why Healing Ward is like a proc...you can be in execute range but if some smo next to you is worse off guess who gets the Shield.

I'm glad you said it though, "Damage shields have carried Magicka (Light Armor wearers) for so long"...(As Designed by ZOS)
What would you propose? Would a Magicka Vigor, Magicka Roll Dodge, Magicka Sprint, and Magicka DBoS level the playing field? No i didn't that was desired by Stamina players...

MLGProPlayer · September 2018

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

codestripper wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

What does this prove? You put on a tanky set that gives you absolutely horrendous stats and say defense is fine? Kill a dummy with that regen and max magic and call me in the morning.

Glass cannon sorcs on live dont even need a shield for VMA. The problem is not with scripted content that most people know like the back of their hand. The problem is with reactive and dynamic combat like you find in PVP. A sorc is the only class that will have to wait to react in order to use their main defense. That is the problem.

DocFrost72 wrote: »

You may bring up the state of pvp sorcs, but I will largely not respond to them as there are countless threads on that already. This was a response to the concerns of sorcs being entirely dead for SOLO pve, which I count as a little absurd. At least in the realm of soloing and maelstrom, they are very much still capable of tankiness, sustain, and survivability. Come next patch, will be swapping out meteor for Overload for sustain and damage buff.

To be fair I also don't think that build could parse a dummy very high, but he already addressed that this thread is not aimed toward PvP sorcs.

And if it's not aimed at PvP sorcs it's aimed at PvE sorcs. A pure DPS class that now is going to fail at DPS. So useful!

I was unaware soloing required you to spec as pure dps. Before the shield change sorcs were king (mag AND stam) of solo. Post update, they still are.

I can't parse on a sorc to save my life. Irrelevant here though since this entire thread was predicated on solo gameplay.

There is literally one piece of solo content in the entire game. These nerfs affect so much more.