This is going to upset the forums but Shieldless Sorc test

DocFrost72

https://youtu.be/MDIUy83Bj5o

Half-*** test because I thought I'd give it a whirl. Genuinely happy with performance, though performance was not definitive (it was only round 1). Some things to note; this is a PvE focused thread. You may bring up the state of pvp sorcs, but I will largely not respond to them as there are countless threads on that already. This was a response to the concerns of sorcs being entirely dead for SOLO pve, which I count as a little absurd. At least in the realm of soloing and maelstrom, they are very much still capable of tankiness, sustain, and survivability. Come next patch, will be swapping out meteor for Overload for sustain and damage buff.

The stats:



5 fortified brass,
2 skoria,
5 mother's sorrow,
6 light 1 heavy, all divines (I have infused chest and pants but will be swapping them).

Live server stats:
37k magicka, 19k health, 14k stamina with tri foods, unbuffed 2419 spell damage, 57.4% spell crit (inner light slotted), 22.8 spell resist, 21.1 physical resist.

stats buffed (no berserk enchant):

Spoiler about shield changes.

I don't agree with defensive skills getting cast times or cooldowns. It's silly, since the balance with them is they cost more. That said, a survivability change (especially one stam already lives without) will not affect meta groups nearly as much as people are saying. Wrobel does NOT need to be fired (hot take I'm aware), and if you believe as I do that sorc shields and light armor shield should remain cast time free, explain why defensive skills need to be immediate, not pre-thought like hots. That will actually change stuff, not taking a dump on the forums because your class got changed.

Will answer questions as I'm sure I forgot something.

Sy1ph5

Complete vMA like that then maybe post next time clearing the easiest round that has little incoming damage is barely a test of a build.

codestripper

Sy1ph5 wrote: »

Complete vMA like that then maybe post next time clearing the easiest round that has little incoming damage is barely a test of a build.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-4AreTl6b4

Edit: I just want to clarify that I also do not support the shield change, as that has been my playstyle for almost 4 years. But as long as you treat your magsorc like a stamsorc with no stamina, it's not the worst thing I've ever done. I'd much prefer to keep the shield because my pets did die more than I would have liked....

DocFrost72

Sy1ph5 wrote: »

Complete vMA like that then maybe post next time clearing the easiest round that has little incoming damage is barely a test of a build.

codestripper wrote: »

Sy1ph5 wrote: »

Complete vMA like that then maybe post next time clearing the easiest round that has little incoming damage is barely a test of a build.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-4AreTl6b4

Oof.

Also:"Half-*** test because I thought I'd give it a whirl. Genuinely happy with performance, though performance was not definitive (it was only round 1)."

From the OP.

Last but not least:

Karm1cOne

codestripper wrote: »

Sy1ph5 wrote: »

Complete vMA like that then maybe post next time clearing the easiest round that has little incoming damage is barely a test of a build.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-4AreTl6b4

Edit: I just want to clarify that I also do not support the shield change, as that has been my playstyle for almost 4 years. But as long as you treat your magsorc like a stamsorc with no stamina, it's not the worst thing I've ever done. I'd much prefer to keep the shield because my pets did die more than I would have liked....

Nice video. It was hard to tell with the speed increase, how hard was it to keep pets alive? And how hard was a recast when they died?

codestripper

DocFrost72 wrote: »

5 fortified brass,
2 skoria,
5 mother's sorrow,
6 light 1 heavy, all divines (I have infused chest and pants but will be swapping them).

Also, this makes me sad.

codestripper

Karm1cOne wrote: »

Nice video. It was hard to tell with the speed increase, how hard was it to keep pets alive? And how hard was a recast when they died?

Ah yeah sorry about that, I can release a full version of the run later. I also didn't really like how the speed increase came out in the final video lol.

In terms of the pets, It wasn't that bad to be honest, but I was testing it in vCoS, vMHK, and vCoA2 earlier and they did die quite a bit more often unfortunately. The recast didn't hurt too much except when they died during really inconvenient times. (such as during the blue orb phase in vCoS).

Ultimately it might be better if we could at least monitor their health as we monitor our group's. That way I could use the twlight's heal to actually keep her and the scamp alive. Someone should make that an Addon.

qbit

My group build doesn’t include any self heal other than the dark magic passive. Which gives me a whopping ~1500 health when my crystal frags procs and I hit a guy with them.

It does require shields that insta cast.

I expect my healer to handle the heals.

Guess while ZOS wanted healers to feel more relevant, they will be less relevant when I have to change my entire build and play style to self-heal. My DPS will also suffer in the group. But I won’t really need a healer anymore. Or shields. I’ll be slotting my heal where my shield went and halve my DPS with a resto staff.

Good job ZOS. Mission accomplished.

codestripper

qbit wrote: »

My group build doesn’t include any self heal other than the dark magic passive. Which gives me a whopping ~1500 health when my crystal frags procs and I hit a guy with them.

It does require shields that insta cast.

I expect my healer to handle the heals.

Guess while ZOS wanted healers to feel more relevant, they will be less relevant when I have to change my entire build and play style to self-heal. My DPS will also suffer in the group. But I won’t really need a healer anymore. Or shields. I’ll be slotting my heal where my shield went and halve my DPS with a resto staff.

Good job ZOS. Mission accomplished.

The funniest thing I've noticed about the change is actually very close to your conclusion.

Because the shields now factor in resistances, It's actually dumb easy to stay alive in PvE now. Like...absolutely pathetically dumb. Any sorc that does choose to run a shield will forgo a TON of DPS. But they will also effectively never need a healer. As proof of this I was able to solo the normal version of Blackrose Prison the day after it released. And trust me, even in normal you take a buttload of damage.

Edit: I would also like to mention that getting flawless on a magsorc will be easier than ever this next patch. You just won't kill things nearly as fast and your score will be pretty trash but hey, flawless lol.

DocFrost72

qbit wrote: »

My group build doesn’t include any self heal other than the dark magic passive. Which gives me a whopping ~1500 health when my crystal frags procs and I hit a guy with them.

It does require shields that insta cast.

I expect my healer to handle the heals.

Guess while ZOS wanted healers to feel more relevant, they will be less relevant when I have to change my entire build and play style to self-heal. My DPS will also suffer in the group. But I won’t really need a healer anymore. Or shields. I’ll be slotting my heal where my shield went and halve my DPS with a resto staff.

Good job ZOS. Mission accomplished.

I'm not so sure. My next tests will involve slipping boundless in where hardened ward was. Functionally dps can only *increase* because ward did nothing for damage and at least there will sometimes be a situation where boundless hurts the enemy. It'll bring me in line with stam dps, but keep me at range where mechanics allow. Makes healers more relevant in that I'm not preventing a wide swath of damage fully until suddenly not- makes it more like I'm actually wearing medium defensive stat wise (which is what stam dps use in end game raids as their defense- resistances).

Could see gossamer getting use too, with this change.

codestripper wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

5 fortified brass,
2 skoria,
5 mother's sorrow,
6 light 1 heavy, all divines (I have infused chest and pants but will be swapping them).

Also, this makes me sad.

Not to pry, but why would a defensive set in solo gameplay make you feel sad?

idk

Sy1ph5 wrote: »

Complete vMA like that then maybe post next time clearing the easiest round that has little incoming damage is barely a test of a build.

Yes, My first thought was that first arena is fairly easy.

codestripper

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Not to pry, but why would a defensive set in solo gameplay make you feel sad?

Generally, the faster you kill things, the less you have to defend against. For instance, I brought my tank into vMA a while back, and couldn't stay alive past round 6, reason being, I didn't do enough damage to play effectively.

I'm not saying that you won't do any damage with that setup, but in my personal experience, the faster things die, the less damage they do to you anyway. Plus on tricky rounds like when the 3 archers come up at once on round 6, you can throw in a dodge-roll. Just because you're magicka doesn't mean you can't occasionally dodge-roll things that are near 1 shots.

SirAndy

codestripper wrote: »

Ultimately it might be better if we could at least monitor their health as we monitor our group's. That way I could use the twlight's heal to actually keep her and the scamp alive. Someone should make that an Addon.

Just watch their health bars, like the rest of us ...

codestripper

SirAndy wrote: »

codestripper wrote: »

Ultimately it might be better if we could at least monitor their health as we monitor our group's. That way I could use the twlight's heal to actually keep her and the scamp alive. Someone should make that an Addon.

Just watch their health bars, like the rest of us ...

I'm sorry? You have time to quit what you're doing and try to look at your pet's health mid-combat? Why waste all of that time when you can just re-summon them if they die?

I'm not sure if you have their health bars turned on above their heads or something but the default game makes it so you have to aim your crosshairs directly on the pet (which moves around like crazy) to get a view of their health. Not only that but you'd have to check almost constantly if something actually is hitting them hard. That just seems so counterproductive.

Biro123

Those stats...

That scares the crap out of me, because when I look from a PVP perspective, I see the need for another 1k mag recov - at least..

I can't see where that can come from without droppin gthe already low Mag and/or stam - or the already low spell-dmg.

I mean, for crying out loud, there was a PVP STAMplar build posted recently that had more spelldamage than that.... I have a hybrid sorc that has more spelldmg(and wpn) and uses stam-based defence (vigor/block/dodge etc).. (but to be fair, using heavy means much less crit)

I really worry about the magsorc's ability to deal damage now.


*Edit* - Not knocking your attempts (since light Brass may be one of the few options left), though it may have come across that way - I'm just despairing at the state of the class.

codestripper

Biro123 wrote: »

Those stats...

That scares the crap out of me, because when I look from a PVP perspective, I see the need for another 1k mag recov - at least..

I can't see where that can come from without droppin gthe already low Mag and/or stam - or the already low spell-dmg.

I mean, for crying out loud, there was a PVP STAMplar build posted recently that had more spelldamage than that.... I have a hybrid sorc that has more spelldmg(and wpn) and uses stam-based defence (vigor/block/dodge etc).. (but to be fair, using heavy means much less crit)

I really worry about the magsorc's ability to deal damage now.


*Edit* - Not knocking your attempts (since light Brass may be one of the few options left), though it may have come across that way - I'm just despairing at the state of the class.

Oh man, don't look at my build then lol, I think my mag recovery is about 600 on my pet sorc. You just don't need it when you have 2 heavy attacks in the rotation.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

What does this prove? You put on a tanky set that gives you absolutely horrendous stats and say defense is fine? Kill a dummy with that regen and max magic and call me in the morning.

Glass cannon sorcs on live dont even need a shield for VMA. The problem is not with scripted content that most people know like the back of their hand. The problem is with reactive and dynamic combat like you find in PVP. A sorc is the only class that will have to wait to react in order to use their main defense. That is the problem.

codestripper

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

What does this prove? You put on a tanky set that gives you absolutely horrendous stats and say defense is fine? Kill a dummy with that regen and max magic and call me in the morning.

Glass cannon sorcs on live dont even need a shield for VMA. The problem is not with scripted content that most people know like the back of their hand. The problem is with reactive and dynamic combat like you find in PVP. A sorc is the only class that will have to wait to react in order to use their main defense. That is the problem.

DocFrost72 wrote: »

You may bring up the state of pvp sorcs, but I will largely not respond to them as there are countless threads on that already. This was a response to the concerns of sorcs being entirely dead for SOLO pve, which I count as a little absurd. At least in the realm of soloing and maelstrom, they are very much still capable of tankiness, sustain, and survivability. Come next patch, will be swapping out meteor for Overload for sustain and damage buff.

To be fair I also don't think that build could parse a dummy very high, but he already addressed that this thread is not aimed toward PvP sorcs.

SirAndy

codestripper wrote: »

I'm sorry? You have time to quit what you're doing and try to look at your pet's health mid-combat? Why waste all of that time when you can just re-summon them if they die?

Wut? My Clannfear spends 99% of its time right in the middle of my screen anyways and it has a big honking green bar in a sea of red, how the heck do you miss that?

And yes, you can set them to always have their bar show, no mouse-over needed.

I don't need to "quit" or "waste" anything, i have situational awareness ...

Oakmontowls_ESO

Yea people already do vMA without shields without defensive sets.

codestripper

SirAndy wrote: »

codestripper wrote: »

I'm sorry? You have time to quit what you're doing and try to look at your pet's health mid-combat? Why waste all of that time when you can just re-summon them if they die?

Wut? My Clannfear spends 99% of its time right in the middle of my screen anyways and it has a big honking green bar in a sea of red, how the heck do you miss that?

And yes, you can set them to always have their bar show, no mouse-over needed.

I don't need to "quit" or "waste" anything, i have situational awareness ...

Clanfear? are you a tank? the volatile familiar and matriarch generally are completely separated as one is range while the other is melee. Most of the time the matriarch is actually behind me, I understand that as a tank it would be much easier to sit in one place and stare at your clanfear as pets only attack what you're heavy attacking (in that case the boss) but for DPS it's actually not that easy funny enough. You actually have to constantly move to avoid mechanics, and you don't really have time to focus on trying to find your pets in the mess of combat.

Also, No thanks to the health bars above everything, I don't like a cluttered screen. I'd much rather just have a group indicator for the pets, I don't see why anyone would be against that actually. It would just make things easier.

SirAndy

codestripper wrote: »

Clanfear? are you a tank?

No, my Pet Sorc is a solo, which means the Clannfear is the tank and the sorc is the damage and healer.

Either way, as i said, you can switch on pet healthbars and they'll show up in green just like any other friendly.
You'll get used to it pretty quick and it allows you to manage your pet's health easily. My Clannfear rarely ever dies.

boombazookajd

codestripper wrote: »

But as long as you treat your magsorc like a stamsorc with no stamina

This right here my dude, is one of the worst things about this b.s. patch coming up.

They've literally killed MAGICKA sorcerer.

Feanor

The question for me is: why would I want to play that? Every class can be stupid tanky. But that’s not why I chose a Sorc as my main in April 2014.

Cronopoly

Honestly It's not a good test at all worthy of getting "upset" about.

--PVP - I would like to see a PVP Crit test against a shield with different Crit values on offense and defense.
--PVP - I would like to see a PVP 1 second Shield test against several Meta Stamblade(s) with normal Crit values

--PVE - Go to last boss in HM Veteran Tempest Island and stand near her in Light Armor, and wait for her AOE, then cast both Healing Ward, and or Anullment (Morphs) by themselves and record the results...other Boss mobs can be tested as well of course.

Obviously some Trial bosses are more of a pain to get to just for testing.

Vahrokh

codestripper wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

What does this prove? You put on a tanky set that gives you absolutely horrendous stats and say defense is fine? Kill a dummy with that regen and max magic and call me in the morning.

Glass cannon sorcs on live dont even need a shield for VMA. The problem is not with scripted content that most people know like the back of their hand. The problem is with reactive and dynamic combat like you find in PVP. A sorc is the only class that will have to wait to react in order to use their main defense. That is the problem.

DocFrost72 wrote: »

You may bring up the state of pvp sorcs, but I will largely not respond to them as there are countless threads on that already. This was a response to the concerns of sorcs being entirely dead for SOLO pve, which I count as a little absurd. At least in the realm of soloing and maelstrom, they are very much still capable of tankiness, sustain, and survivability. Come next patch, will be swapping out meteor for Overload for sustain and damage buff.

To be fair I also don't think that build could parse a dummy very high, but he already addressed that this thread is not aimed toward PvP sorcs.

And if it's not aimed at PvP sorcs it's aimed at PvE sorcs. A pure DPS class that now is going to fail at DPS. So useful!

codestripper

SirAndy wrote: »

codestripper wrote: »

Clanfear? are you a tank?

No, my Pet Sorc is a solo, which means the Clannfear is the tank and the sorc is the damage and healer.

Either way, as i said, you can switch on pet healthbars and they'll show up in green just like any other friendly.
You'll get used to it pretty quick and it allows you to manage your pet's health easily. My Clannfear rarely ever dies.

Well you're missing out on a lot of damage having a clanfear as your pet, but that's fine, I ain't judging. All i'm saying is, why are you so against having health bars that are easier to manage? lol

Edit: I also just want to clarify something just in case you weren't aware, the clanfear heal actually heals based off of your max health, which is why i asked if you were a tank. If you do not have a very high health pool, it's actually much more efficient (and a better group utility) to use the twilight matriarch as your heal. Not only would it heal you for more while costing much less, but it can also help keep your team alive.

codestripper

Vahrokh wrote: »

And if it's not aimed at PvP sorcs it's aimed at PvE sorcs. A pure DPS class that now is going to fail at DPS. So useful!

I think you misunderstand, I'm not trying to defend the shield nerf at all, my playstyle for over 3 years has been based around shields. I was just saying that this post was not aimed at PvP'ers, and that you can by all means still do solo content with the new sorc.

WuffyCerulei

Please do run the entire thing like that. Tbh the first round is by far the easiest. If you can pull off the 5th round and more, it'll have more validation.

LittlePinkDot

Biro123 wrote: »

Those stats...

That scares the crap out of me, because when I look from a PVP perspective, I see the need for another 1k mag recov - at least..

I can't see where that can come from without droppin gthe already low Mag and/or stam - or the already low spell-dmg.

I mean, for crying out loud, there was a PVP STAMplar build posted recently that had more spelldamage than that.... I have a hybrid sorc that has more spelldmg(and wpn) and uses stam-based defence (vigor/block/dodge etc).. (but to be fair, using heavy means much less crit)

I really worry about the magsorc's ability to deal damage now.


*Edit* - Not knocking your attempts (since light Brass may be one of the few options left), though it may have come across that way - I'm just despairing at the state of the class.

Isnt there a heavy set from some dungeon that gives a bunch of spell crit? Cant remember what its called... Can use it with 2xrings + amulet and staff.
But what about using bloodspawn instead of fortified brass?

WeylandLabs

The first real Mag Sorc in ESO !