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Archivist Ernarde and his werewolf hulks

Ralamil
Ralamil
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Ok, I have to ask... how in the *** hell are people typically surviving the beginning of this fight? Dealing with the lower-health werewolf isn't too bad, and the other boss mechanics are a piece of cake, but LITERALLY if the higher-health human transforms into a werewolf, I can almost never survive its attacks. The breath melts my face. I get some infected wound attack on me that I can't seem to purge.

This fight cannot be so ***-poorly designed that it ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY relies on lucky RNG to never have one of the high-health adds transform into a werewolf, or on being a DK tank able to pop Magma Armor as needed (I'm a warden tank). My DPS aren't slouches, either, so I don't think it's a case of them not killing it fast enough.

What in the hell have people been doing? (beaten once, but can't seem to reproduce that...)
Karn Wild-Blood - PC NA AD Nord Warden
  • Recremen
    Recremen
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    What I'd like to know, in particular, is how three things work on this fight:
    • How to deal with the "Infected Claw" damage
    • How to deal with the "Breath/Roar Damage"
    • How to tell which if the werewolf adds is going to transform and/or control which one transforms. The higher health one is obviously the one you don't want to transform, but as I don't tank this fight I don't know how it all works.
    Is this a fight where you're just supposed to have three DPS instead of heals? Is that the intended design? Or, if the tank is supposed to just be able to sit in all of that, what's the methodology intended? Can all class tanks do it? Can Frost Staff tanks do it? Is there a purge being missed? Some skill not being cast?
    Men'Do PC NA AD Khajiit
    Grand High Illustrious Mid-Tier PvP/PvE Bussmunster
  • Left4Daud
    Left4Daud
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    If it enrages, no, you’re not gonna be able to tank it. At least not for long.

    How do they enrage? Going too close to the aura on the main boss.

    Getting tagged by the bosses lightning zap attack. If you or one of your DDs are targeted by that lightning AOE and bring that splash to a Hulking Werewolf, that’s what is making it destroy you. (I don't believe this statement to be true after further testing.)

    Otherwise they shouldn’t be a problem.

    You’re not having any trouble tanking that particular add BEFORE the Archivist, eh?

    All the beasts in this dungeon get empowered by enemy shock attacks. Yea, that includes the Archivist empowering Hulking Werewolves.

    No, you don't need amazing RNG or 3 DPS for this fight.

    Yes, every class can tank these adds in their non-empowered state. Even a Nightblade with a frost staff.

    Source: I'm that Nightblade with a frost staff.

    Edited by Left4Daud on August 26, 2018 12:16PM
  • Ralamil
    Ralamil
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    Left4Daud wrote: »
    If it enrages, no, you’re not gonna be able to tank it. At least not for long.

    How do they enrage?

    Getting tagged by the bosses lightning zap attack. If you or one of your DDs are targeted by that lightning AOE and bring that splash to a Hulking Werewolf, that’s what is making it destroy you.

    Otherwise they shouldn’t be a problem.

    You’re not having any trouble tanking that particular add BEFORE the Archivist, eh?

    All the beasts in this dungeon get empowered by enemy shock attacks. Yea, that includes the Archivist empowering Hulking Werewolves.

    No, you don't need amazing RNG or 3 DPS for this fight.

    Yes, every class can tank these adds in their non-empowered state. Even a Nightblade with a frost staff.

    Source: I'm that Nightblade with a frost staff.

    Interesting, don't think I knew about the enrage mechanic from shock attacks, but I also do not believe that's an issue.

    I say that because, even before the boss casts his first lightning splash attack, I can still die to the werewolf. The first two you fight in the Archivist fight - the humans who are present even before you pull the boss - will enrage, and it seems like if it is ever the higher-health add, then I'm going to die. The lower health one I can survive without too much issue, although even its infected claw attack can still do a number on my health eventually.

    And I'm hardly slacking on resistances/mitigation/etc. I've had no problems with the vast majority of other content in the game, and I beat vet MoS without too much issue (mechanics killed me, not so much being unable to survive attacks).

    So I'm not seeing any enrage mechanic on them, as far as I know.
    Karn Wild-Blood - PC NA AD Nord Warden
  • Left4Daud
    Left4Daud
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    Yeah I’m really not sure then. I’ve tanked the fight in instances where the higher health add is the one to transform and it’s not a problem. The only time the breath attack destroyed me was when a Stam Sorc was targeted by the bosses lightning splash attack and brought the AOE to the hulking WW, presumably empowering it further. All of a sudden I was dead defending against attacks I normally had no trouble defending against.

    The hulking WWs have a very predictable attack pattern so you can use that to your advantage. They always open with the breath attack so be prepared to shield / block cast some healing through that. Then they do an AOE slam, you can just move out of this if you are quick enough, you don’t necessarily need to block it. Then they will target you with a heavy attack, block or roll dodge that. Their light attacks do apply a nasty DOT, but I usually can just heal through it and the breath with dark cloak.

    You say your resistance and mitigation are good, perhaps it’s just a matter of incorporating some more self healing in your set up?

    I’m just throwing out ideas is all, not making any assumptions. :)

    Edited by Left4Daud on August 26, 2018 12:49PM
  • Ralamil
    Ralamil
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    Left4Daud wrote: »
    Yeah I’m really not sure then. I’ve tanked the fight in instances where the higher health add is the one to transform and it’s not a problem. The only time the breath attack destroyed me was when a Stam Sorc was targeted by the bosses lightning splash attack and brought the AOE to the hulking WW, presumably empowering it further. All of a sudden I was dead defending against attacks I normally had no trouble defending against.

    The hulking WWs have a very predictable attack pattern so you can use that to your advantage. They always open with the breath attack so be prepared to shield / block cast some healing through that. Then they do an AOE slam, you can just move out of this if you are quick enough, you don’t necessarily need to block it. Then they will target you with a heavy attack, block or roll dodge that. Their light attacks do apply a nasty DOT, but I usually can just heal through it and the breath with dark cloak.

    You say your resistance and mitigation are good, perhaps it’s just a matter of incorporating some more self healing in your set up?

    I’m just throwing out ideas is all, not making any assumptions. :)

    No I get that, and I appreciate you doing so. Not like you know what I'm currently running, so what else could you do but throw out ideas? xD So no worries there.

    My tank's a warden, so I'm typically running 4 different heals: Budding Seeds, Leeching Vines, Polar Wind, and Enchanted Forest.
    Karn Wild-Blood - PC NA AD Nord Warden
  • erlewine
    erlewine
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    right when you engage, focus the one that is being transformed. you can kill it before the transform completes.
    eisley the worst
  • profundidob16_ESO
    profundidob16_ESO
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    Left4Daud wrote: »
    I had the opportunity to go back into this fight and test some things out based on earlier things I said in the thread, and some new information since then.

    First I'd like to say I believe my original statement regarding the lightning splash was incorrect, and I've amended my earlier comments. In the group / encounter in which this enrage happened, it was likely due to hulking just barely clipping the bosses enrage aura, while a lightning splash was / or recently occurred. Rather than the two (lightning splash and enrage) being connected.

    I say this because I went back in there and explicitly told my DD's to drag the lightning splash onto the hulk, and it didn't give the add the "enraged" swirly red skin texture. This effect is very easy to see on the previous boss due to her stark white fur, and also appears to show up on hulks specifically when you bring them too close to the Archivist himself. So I apologize about that.

    You were correct about the different strength adds producing differing hulks. Though from my testing, this appeared to be mostly just an HP thing. The higher health add simply created a higher health hulk than the weaker add I believe. I didn't notice any significant increase in power level between the hulks, again, just their health.

    I also told my healer and DD's to let the higher health add transform, and stop all damage / heals to just let me tank it. With my own healing, and defenses, I was NOT able to hold the stronger werewolf hulk for very long. The DOT from the swipes usually being the thing that killed me. Something like 30k + damage from breath and multiple 15k ? ticks from the claws? I don't remember the exact numbers. But, tanking the add in a vacuum proved to be less than ideal. I'd imagine some ultimates (magma shell) could help here, or planning for this with extra defense (major protection) - but we're trying to figure out how to handle this add in poor conditions, not optimal ones.

    On the next pull, I had the healer provide some additional healing support - while the DDs just stood back. I was able to tank the higher health hulking WW indefinitely at this point - sitting through multiple rounds of glyphs with the hulk wailing on me and not doing any significant damage. I believe I held the add for nearly two minutes while mechanics slowly killed the group. (DDs were told to stand still so eventually died from shock/glyphs, then the healer died from the bubble, and ONLY then did the damage from the higher health hulking WW bring my health to 0).

    So essentially, assuming your mitigation and defenses are of an appropriate value - I believe the add on this fight to be more of a healing check, than a tanking check. If you are running with 3 decent dps (which is what I usually run this fight with), they should have no trouble bursting the add down before the damage chews through you and you can bypass the healing check. But if 3 DPS can't focus / burst down the hulking WW before it kills you, that is not your fault.

    And if you are running this with a dedicated healer, this really shouldn't be a problem - provided they even have half a clue of what to do.

    You didn't actually mention explicitly that you ran this with a healer, you only mentioned the encounter as it relates to yourself, and your damage dealers. Again, just throwing out my experience not making an assumptions. If you were running this with a healer, they need to have their focus on you while this add is up, and it really shouldn't be a problem for you to tank it with even mediocre healing support.

    So in short, its mostly a healing check that can be reasonably passed with very basic support OR can be skipped via high DPS and some extra defensive preparation on behalf of the tank.

    I still don't believe RNG or any specific group composition is needed for this fight, just proper focus and preparation.

    :)

    You're close. It's not just a healing check, nor just a tank check. It's a basic check of the tank+healing combination. A good healer can compensate for a bad tank and viceversa. If you're a good tank you are able hold and survive hulkings solo without a healer. That kind of says it all
  • Merlin13KAGL
    Merlin13KAGL
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    I believe the hulk will also enrage if you kill the non-transformed counterpart first (pisses him off, it seems).

    Nuke the wolfed out add first.
    Just because you don't like the way something is doesn't necessarily make it wrong...

    Earn it.
    I am neither warm, nor fuzzy...
    Probably has checkbox on Customer Service profile that say High Aggro, 99% immunity to BS
  • profundidob16_ESO
    profundidob16_ESO
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    Ralamil wrote: »
    Left4Daud wrote: »
    If it enrages, no, you’re not gonna be able to tank it. At least not for long.

    How do they enrage?

    Getting tagged by the bosses lightning zap attack. If you or one of your DDs are targeted by that lightning AOE and bring that splash to a Hulking Werewolf, that’s what is making it destroy you.

    Otherwise they shouldn’t be a problem.

    You’re not having any trouble tanking that particular add BEFORE the Archivist, eh?

    All the beasts in this dungeon get empowered by enemy shock attacks. Yea, that includes the Archivist empowering Hulking Werewolves.

    No, you don't need amazing RNG or 3 DPS for this fight.

    Yes, every class can tank these adds in their non-empowered state. Even a Nightblade with a frost staff.

    Source: I'm that Nightblade with a frost staff.

    Interesting, don't think I knew about the enrage mechanic from shock attacks, but I also do not believe that's an issue.

    I say that because, even before the boss casts his first lightning splash attack, I can still die to the werewolf. The first two you fight in the Archivist fight - the humans who are present even before you pull the boss - will enrage, and it seems like if it is ever the higher-health add, then I'm going to die. The lower health one I can survive without too much issue, although even its infected claw attack can still do a number on my health eventually.

    And I'm hardly slacking on resistances/mitigation/etc. I've had no problems with the vast majority of other content in the game, and I beat vet MoS without too much issue (mechanics killed me, not so much being unable to survive attacks).

    So I'm not seeing any enrage mechanic on them, as far as I know.

    enraging is indeed not your problem because when hulkings enrage they simply 1-shot you no matter who or what tank you are. That is fully intended since part of the basic mechanics is that mobs never ever enrage during this fight. The only thing that enrages mobs is the small red colored melee circle around the boss.

    By positioning themselves correctly all 4 group members make sure adds never go near the boss at all.

    In addition as a warden tank you use your silver leash and inner beast taunt skill to pull newly spawned adds on the chairs to you in the center so they never even get a chance to be anywhere else but near the tank.

    In addition by stopping dps on the boss the 2 dps make sure you don't get 4 adds at once ever. Only 2 of which only 1 transforms. This way the tank is never overrun.

    All these are part of the basic mechanics that make up this fight
  • profundidob16_ESO
    profundidob16_ESO
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    I believe the hulk will also enrage if you kill the non-transformed counterpart first (pisses him off, it seems).

    Nuke the wolfed out add first.

    no, they don't. The transformation of a normal human into a heavy hitting hulking werewolf is a standard intended mechanic that is supposed to happen and not related to the (totally separate) enraging mechanic but both mechanic are stackable. The transformation is an intended mechanic but can be prevented however with high burst dps on the adds that are still transforming. Even if your dps can pull this 'skipping' off it's still only a luxury bonus and not needed. Therefore you could all adds kill both in any order you like. Just realize that if you wait too long before killing your first hulking, another human will eventually transform as well leaving you with 2 which leads to a wipe in no time. Most common (and logical) is makes sure to always only have 2 adds up max at a time (by dps on boss the second they spawn), then first kill the human that is not yet transformed since he dies fast and then take your time to kill the big boy which can be tanked to eternity. After both die you restart dps on boss to lower his health which triggers the next adds into spawning on the stairs.

    Since the enraging mechanic is something separate that has nothing to do with the transformation mechanic not only normal humans and small werewolves but also transformed big hulking werewolves can still enrage. Their heavy attacks then do numbers like 235K dmge on a player so it's safe to assume this is not intended to ever happen =P
  • ZOS_AntonioP
    Hello everyone,

    Just a reminder for everyone to please keep the Forum Rules in mind and to avoid unneeded flaming and baiting.

    Thank you for understanding.
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  • Ralamil
    Ralamil
    ✭✭✭
    Left4Daud wrote: »
    I had the opportunity to go back into this fight and test some things out based on earlier things I said in the thread, and some new information since then.

    First I'd like to say I believe my original statement regarding the lightning splash was incorrect, and I've amended my earlier comments. In the group / encounter in which this enrage happened, it was likely due to hulking just barely clipping the bosses enrage aura, while a lightning splash was / or recently occurred. Rather than the two (lightning splash and enrage) being connected.

    I say this because I went back in there and explicitly told my DD's to drag the lightning splash onto the hulk, and it didn't give the add the "enraged" swirly red skin texture. This effect is very easy to see on the previous boss due to her stark white fur, and also appears to show up on hulks specifically when you bring them too close to the Archivist himself. So I apologize about that.

    You were correct about the different strength adds producing differing hulks. Though from my testing, this appeared to be mostly just an HP thing. The higher health add simply created a higher health hulk than the weaker add I believe. I didn't notice any significant increase in power level between the hulks, again, just their health.

    I also told my healer and DD's to let the higher health add transform, and stop all damage / heals to just let me tank it. With my own healing, and defenses, I was NOT able to hold the stronger werewolf hulk for very long. The DOT from the swipes usually being the thing that killed me. Something like 30k + damage from breath and multiple 15k ? ticks from the claws? I don't remember the exact numbers. But, tanking the add in a vacuum proved to be less than ideal. I'd imagine some ultimates (magma shell) could help here, or planning for this with extra defense (major protection) - but we're trying to figure out how to handle this add in poor conditions, not optimal ones.

    On the next pull, I had the healer provide some additional healing support - while the DDs just stood back. I was able to tank the higher health hulking WW indefinitely at this point - sitting through multiple rounds of glyphs with the hulk wailing on me and not doing any significant damage. I believe I held the add for nearly two minutes while mechanics slowly killed the group. (DDs were told to stand still so eventually died from shock/glyphs, then the healer died from the bubble, and ONLY then did the damage from the higher health hulking WW bring my health to 0).

    So essentially, assuming your mitigation and defenses are of an appropriate value - I believe the add on this fight to be more of a healing check, than a tanking check. If you are running with 3 decent dps (which is what I usually run this fight with), they should have no trouble bursting the add down before the damage chews through you and you can bypass the healing check. But if 3 DPS can't focus / burst down the hulking WW before it kills you, that is not your fault.

    And if you are running this with a dedicated healer, this really shouldn't be a problem - provided they even have half a clue of what to do.

    You didn't actually mention explicitly that you ran this with a healer, you only mentioned the encounter as it relates to yourself, and your damage dealers. Again, just throwing out my experience not making an assumptions. If you were running this with a healer, they need to have their focus on you while this add is up, and it really shouldn't be a problem for you to tank it with even mediocre healing support.

    So in short, its mostly a healing check that can be reasonably passed with very basic support OR can be skipped via high DPS and some extra defensive preparation on behalf of the tank.

    I still don't believe RNG or any specific group composition is needed for this fight, just proper focus and preparation.

    :)

    Some awesome testing, I appreciate hearing back regarding it! I did in fact have 2 DPS and a healer with me. And it occurs to me that I don't know just what the healer was doing (he is a guildie I trust, but I'm not sure how his focus was divided. So I'll be sure to bring that up next time we run the dungeon. Thanks again!
    Karn Wild-Blood - PC NA AD Nord Warden
  • Ertthewolf
    Ertthewolf
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    Ralamil wrote: »
    Left4Daud wrote: »
    I had the opportunity to go back into this fight and test some things out based on earlier things I said in the thread, and some new information since then.

    First I'd like to say I believe my original statement regarding the lightning splash was incorrect, and I've amended my earlier comments. In the group / encounter in which this enrage happened, it was likely due to hulking just barely clipping the bosses enrage aura, while a lightning splash was / or recently occurred. Rather than the two (lightning splash and enrage) being connected.

    I say this because I went back in there and explicitly told my DD's to drag the lightning splash onto the hulk, and it didn't give the add the "enraged" swirly red skin texture. This effect is very easy to see on the previous boss due to her stark white fur, and also appears to show up on hulks specifically when you bring them too close to the Archivist himself. So I apologize about that.

    You were correct about the different strength adds producing differing hulks. Though from my testing, this appeared to be mostly just an HP thing. The higher health add simply created a higher health hulk than the weaker add I believe. I didn't notice any significant increase in power level between the hulks, again, just their health.

    I also told my healer and DD's to let the higher health add transform, and stop all damage / heals to just let me tank it. With my own healing, and defenses, I was NOT able to hold the stronger werewolf hulk for very long. The DOT from the swipes usually being the thing that killed me. Something like 30k + damage from breath and multiple 15k ? ticks from the claws? I don't remember the exact numbers. But, tanking the add in a vacuum proved to be less than ideal. I'd imagine some ultimates (magma shell) could help here, or planning for this with extra defense (major protection) - but we're trying to figure out how to handle this add in poor conditions, not optimal ones.

    On the next pull, I had the healer provide some additional healing support - while the DDs just stood back. I was able to tank the higher health hulking WW indefinitely at this point - sitting through multiple rounds of glyphs with the hulk wailing on me and not doing any significant damage. I believe I held the add for nearly two minutes while mechanics slowly killed the group. (DDs were told to stand still so eventually died from shock/glyphs, then the healer died from the bubble, and ONLY then did the damage from the higher health hulking WW bring my health to 0).

    So essentially, assuming your mitigation and defenses are of an appropriate value - I believe the add on this fight to be more of a healing check, than a tanking check. If you are running with 3 decent dps (which is what I usually run this fight with), they should have no trouble bursting the add down before the damage chews through you and you can bypass the healing check. But if 3 DPS can't focus / burst down the hulking WW before it kills you, that is not your fault.

    And if you are running this with a dedicated healer, this really shouldn't be a problem - provided they even have half a clue of what to do.

    You didn't actually mention explicitly that you ran this with a healer, you only mentioned the encounter as it relates to yourself, and your damage dealers. Again, just throwing out my experience not making an assumptions. If you were running this with a healer, they need to have their focus on you while this add is up, and it really shouldn't be a problem for you to tank it with even mediocre healing support.

    So in short, its mostly a healing check that can be reasonably passed with very basic support OR can be skipped via high DPS and some extra defensive preparation on behalf of the tank.

    I still don't believe RNG or any specific group composition is needed for this fight, just proper focus and preparation.

    :)

    Some awesome testing, I appreciate hearing back regarding it! I did in fact have 2 DPS and a healer with me. And it occurs to me that I don't know just what the healer was doing (he is a guildie I trust, but I'm not sure how his focus was divided. So I'll be sure to bring that up next time we run the dungeon. Thanks again!



    @Ralamil Kind of an older thread, but thought I'd throw in some insight. Adds enrage when getting into bosses red circle around him. This includes behemoths. So tank needs to stay away from boss to prevent add from enraging. Tank should just taunt and fracture boss then stick to waiting on right side for add spawn. If dps are survivable then don't even tank boss. Dps kill weaker add, then focus the strong. If the strong wolf's out, then tank pulls into hallway to direct the cone away from dps. We did it with three dps, and a DK tank. Tank had Black Rose and Green Pact, plus Thurvokun. Dps were all werewolf builds lol.
    Edited by Ertthewolf on September 22, 2018 5:16AM
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