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General cast-time skill discussion and why they are unpopular

Nox_Noir
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Hello,
This is NOT just another shield nerf thread, I wanna talk about the problems of cast times in ESO in general as an attempt to give the devs an insight into why the shield changes are so extremely unpopular and also why cast times have always made other skills unpopular. I wanna not only talk about balance implications but also and most importantly about the feel of combat and particular enjoyment of skills, which i feel is often being neglected.
(Note that by cast time skills, I mean up-front cast times where there is a moment of just waiting and being unable to perform any other action before the skill fires. I DONT mean channeled skills like radiant oppression, because these perform their action immediately like an instant cast, and only differ in that they have a duration. Hence why they are a whole different category and also have a much better and less disruptive feel than up-front cast times.)

Why are cast times unpopular?
Eso's combat is fast paced and fluent, and valued by players for that. The fast global cooldown on skills gives casting rotations and burst-combos a certain rhythm that just feels fluent and rewarding. Up-front cast-times on skills such as wrecking blow are very disruptive to to the pace of combat. Even tho it is just 1 second, it just feels very frustrating and clunky. These skills distinctively lack an immediate feedback that a player expects from a button input. This is not an animation problem, it is simply a direct consequence of the action happening not directly but after a set amount of time while being unable to do anything else in the meantime, which is unfortunately the concept of a cast time.

This is a problem in PVE dps particularly. For maximum DPS, every global cooldown must be used for damaging skills or buffs without wasting even a split second in between. Not only does a cast time extend the time until the next skill can be cast, it also delays the next light attack, but most importantly it is just incredibly disruptive to the rhythm of a rotation. A less experienced player will have significant trouble returning to that rotation rhythm after such a disruption, messing up the timing, losing DPS, and most importantly, likely feeling a sense of frustration in the process. More experienced players might be able to adjust to the change in tempo without losing milliseconds or missing a light attack, but even those I'd wager would feel that it makes their rotation feel less enjoyable. No one really likes to use skills such as crystal blast, dark flare, or wrecking blow, in a PVE rotation. Simply because the cast times make them feel extremely clunky and unrewarding, and not necessarily because they perform poorly. Actually these skills do a lot of DPS if light weaved correctly, they are just not used because of the horrible feel.
Channeled Acceleration, a cast time buff, is sometimes used by magicka DPS that feel the need for minor force, but is in most cases not liked because of the disruptive timing.
Dark Exchange and morphs are also very unpopular for DPS, mostly because of the cast time, which is a bit of a paradox given that it is the Sorcs only active sustain tool.
>> Players of a class that is known to be suffering from sustain problems widely refuse to use the classes own sustain tool because of its cast time. I think this speaks volumes about just how obnoxious cast times are generally perceived by players.

In PVP things look a little bit different because the gameplay is more tactical. There are phases of skill combo bursts followed by retreat and recovery. The latter phase is where cast time abilities like dark deal and channeled acceleration find use, but even here, the cast time is definitely a nuisance, the delay often causing unintuitive behavior with queuing follow-up skills, accidental double casting, or trouble bar swapping. Those problems of cast times are also strongly amplified by lag that is unfortunately prevalent in PVP environments.
Another common PVP use of cast time abilities is cast time damage abilities like Snipe, Dark Flare, Crystal Blast, Dizzying Swing. The delayed high damage from these abilities is used to follow up the cast with instantly hitting skills to enable extremely high damage bursts with very little counterplay, sometimes even able to One-Shot players. Pair in some lag and there's often no chance for a counter at all. Even tho cast time skills here find some uses, in my opinion it is not in a way that can be considered healthy gameplay. Dizzying swing in particular, even tho sometimes used, I quite often see players complain about its horrible clunkiness. Often people who use this skill say that they do it just because their class either just doesn't have access to a better alternative or lacks a hard stun, but very rarely because they actually just enjoy using the skill.

Now on to the current problems of the changes Murkmire PTS introduced:
I gave my best to illustrate how unpopular cast times are. It should be easy to see why the cast time change to shields is extremely unpopular. I'm not saying that shields didn't need some kind of adjustment. I do think they did, and I understand the reasoning the Devs gave to this change, intending shields to be used at opportune times or during a phase of retreat and recover. And while this makes some sense from a balance perspective, it has horrible implications for gameplay:
- > PVE fights usually do not have tactical gameplay like PVP does. There are almost never 'recover and retreat' phases. One-shots come very fast and protection needs to come fast and reactively. Even if we ignore that and accept the pro-active newly intended use of shields, the dreaded cast time will constantly disrupt rotations and make gameplay simply less enjoyable.
- > PVP casters will just get shredded to ribbons from melee's with this proposed playstyle. Their pre-casted shields will be broken within a few second and make them extremely vulnerable against sustained pressure. The usual shield size of around 8k is broken after 1-2 attacks, even with light armor resistance. So they're seconds away from death and have to just wait for the life saver skill without being able to cast anything else meanwhile, like a stun to slow down the attacker. Is this fun? There is not one additional second of time to just do nothing but channel a shield, they just die. They would have to attempt to make use of the new light armor snare and sprint cost reduction after even the slightest enemy contact. Run for cover and hope you make it, recast shield, do 2-3 attacks until shield is already depleted and try to run away again. Is this Fun? Is this healthy gameplay?
Pretty much ANY other change to balance or nerf shields would be better than a cast time. Cast times are the worst. To give an Example of a possible better solution, it would be much more acceptable if the shields just had a delay between casting and the actual 'popping' of the shield. This would have the same effect in countering the unwanted shield-spam without introducing the dreaded combat flow disrupting cast time.

Finally I would like to mention Dark Deal. It's cast time has been there for a while, that's nothing new, but it doesn't change the fact that the cast time has been a great nuisance for a long time which prevented it to be fun to use in a grand majority of content in PVE. I bring this up because now that it got a nerf in this PTS, I think it's a good time to rethink this awful cast time. Is it even still justifiable now? Would making the entire resource return come over 20s make it justifiable to finally remove the cast time? No other comparable skill in this game has such a cast time. Betty Netch, Rune Focus, Siphoning Strikes, all those are instant casts and a pleasure to use in all content. Just not the thing that sorcs are stuck with, despite being the ones that could really really use more sustain.

That's all from me, I really hope that ZOS will start to understand really how hated cast times are in ESO, and start to cut down on them instead of adding more.
Now people please tell me your opinions. Do you disagree? Do you like up-front cast times on skills? Do you think they are fun?

  • Tasear
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    enjoyment of skills,

    I think this is quite important and it's what is causing over time for players to fine classes duller or have less of a shine.
  • WrathOfInnos
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    Great post! I have a few things to add about why I do not like any skills with a cast time, and many of these apply to channeled skills as well. In no particular order, here they are:

    1. Missed light attacks, which are very important for DPS and activating your Berserker enchant

    2. Self snare while casting. Makes high mobility fights difficult and kiting mechanics deadly.

    3. If boss goes invulnerable while casting, then charged up skill is wasted (Olms protected, or Z’Maja goes underground)

    4. Prevents or delays bar swapping, which can lead to casting wrong skills or getting stuck on the wrong bar during Relequen’s overload mechanic

    5. Prevents drinking potions, without much indication that you failed to drink a potion

    6. Prevents block casting, which leaves caster vulnerable to certain mechanics and stuns (think Foundation Stone Atronach in vAA)

    7. If you need to block or dodge before cast time ability finishes, then cast time was completely wasted

    8. General clunkiness, particularly regarding rotation timing and rhythm. Often do not end on whole numbers of seconds, forcing other DoTs to be clipped early or have down time

    9. Delay on effect that is needed now. The worst offender here was the Templar clap heal, which was wisely fixed last patch. The worst case of this on live server is probably channeled acceleration, which allows you to move fast, but first makes you move extra slowly for a few seconds. The shield change on PTS will be by far the worst offender for this category if it makes it to live.
  • idk
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    The point is well made.

    This is evident with Zos trying to encourage use of the Ritual heal by reducing the case time with at least one of the morphs. That was clearly insufficient and Zos had to eliminate the cast time.

    As a healer, this is a heal that I thought would be great before the game started. Once I actually used ritual in a vet dungeon 4 years ago I realized it had no place on my bar due to the case time.

    Combat in the game is to fluid for cast times so skills such as healing and shields with cast times are just plain not fun nor very useful.
  • Faulgor
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    Nox_Noir wrote: »
    Now people please tell me your opinions. Do you disagree? Do you like up-front cast times on skills? Do you think they are fun?

    Yes, I think they are fun. If well executed.
    See, I don't find what most people seem to call fast-paced combat "rewarding". That's not the word I'd use. Actions and reactions come either so fast there is no sense of investment, and therefore no sense of accomplishment and reward, or they become so monotonous and boring in the case of DPS rotations (what you call "a certain rhythm") that it almost puts me to sleep.
    Being able to react and execute actions fast at any given moment is fun in other ways, mainly if the content actually demands such reactions (otherwise it's just stringing together memorized buttons like dummy parses).

    Cast time skills, on the other hand, can be actually rewarding. When you put in the wind up / start up / channel / cast time and are then rewarded for your investment with an impactful, powerful effect. Of course, this depends on certain conditions, just like fun in faster combat.
    • Great animations. The game needs to sell the effort of casting and the weight of the effect properly. Unfortunately, I can't think of a casting animation in ESO that does this well. People have been mocking the cast animation for Conjured Ward as it looks like taking a dump, and they are right.
    • Strong abilities. The #1 reason why people don't use cast time abilities is that it's usually not worth the time investment, as they are too weak. In PvE it's a DPS loss, and in PvP it's deemed too risky (except for Snipe apparently, because of the range). Of course increasing cast time abilities' potency would increase the burst in PvP considerably, so that is something to keep in mind when balancing.
    • Offensive abilities. Defensive abilities and buffs are only rarely impactful enough to be fun and rewarding. I can't think of any good example from the games with cast times I played.
    • Means to improve cast times. It's an RPG after all. When you build around cast times, it's better to not feel at the complete mercy of imposed limitations, but being able to improve them somewhat. Why doesn't light armor have a passive that reduces cast times, for example?

    I've been playing fighting games for years. Although it's a different genre, the similiarity is that every attack has a certain start up time. Often the start up is too long to use in the normal flow and rhythm of combat, as it opens you up too much. But if you have a read on your opponent, when you think you know what he's going to do and see an opporunity to use a an attack with a longer start up, and are then rewarded for it, it's absolutley amazing. And fun to watch, too.
    Of course, this means the game has to be actually built to allow such interactions to occur, and I think ESO can do it if they wanted to.

    On a different note, I think most of this hold true for attackspeed in general. I love the new Blood Moon set because it actually lets me attack faster than the usual "rhythm" which is the same across the board. There is no reason why every class and build should have to have the same attackspeed!
    Alandrol Sul: He's making another Numidium?!?
    Vivec: Worse, buddy. They're buying it.
  • NuarBlack
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    I agree with everything in general. Maybe I'm old school and like the idea of cast times if done right which eso has yet to do. The idea of powering up a spell juat seems like good class fantasy to me. I didn't mind the templar heal when they allowed you to move at full speed while doing it, cause it worked as a sustain or efficiency heal while you still had the OS heal. Which is how all of them should be. They need to have a significant reward for doing it though and a shield that mitigates one spammable and LA isn't good enough. And is clunky.

    And I get the potential burst problem they could have but sub assault and curse already allow burst line up just in a different way. I like the idea of adding more skill interactions and maybe cast time spells could be beefed up in this way. That way they are not so front loaded. For example maybe templars dark flare applies a debuff or personal buff that causes javelin to have a 100% chance to proc burning light for a little bit. You would miss less LA weaves this way and the damage wouldn't be so front loaded.
    Edited by NuarBlack on September 21, 2018 4:14AM
  • Kadoin
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    I don't think it has anything to do with "fun." Cast time abilities have very little to offer over instant cast abilities every time.

    Who honestly used healing ritual with a cast time, when you could have just spammed springs in the same instant?

    Who honestly used solar barrage with a cast time, unless they had to? (I did, but it was garbage and always got me killed in the animation in PvP, annoyed when using it to pull trash in PvE)

    Who will really use annulment when healing ward is instant? If ZOS really, really hated shieldstacking, they could implement a 1 sec cooldown instead of the cast time, and if they still can't stand it raise the cost OR simply nerf/change magicka return on harness. It would "theoretically" achieve the same result, except it wouldn't be tied to a laggy and buggy animation.

    Instead, they are set on the illusion of "skillful play." Cast time abilities are garbage in this game, esp. if you are tanking. Personally, I slot NO cast time abilities and I won't do it in the future either.
  • FrancisCrawford
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    Preparing quietly to do something is not inherently bad. I actually like opening combat with a powerful cast-time attack.

    But ESO isn't designed to make it enjoyable to temporarily disable yourself at the times in combat you're in most danger. That will never, ever be a good idea in this game.
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