Last time we had a big meltdown over a giant nerf...?
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Conduit0✭✭✭✭✭
✭The_Outsider wrote: »
The shield changes are not equivalent to changing dodge roll. Everyone can dodge roll, and it's not tied to a GCD. There are 2 shields that will have a cast time. 2 shields that have a more proactive function, and....what 10 others from various sources that are instant, proc'd or w/e.The_Outsider wrote: »I've been seeing a lot of posts using this same line of reasoning.
"Everyone freaked-out during X nerf in the past (typically M'wind sustain nerfs), therefore we can extrapolate that people are also overreacting now."
Do the people posting this drivel not realise how ass-backwards their logic is?
People aren't a bunch of linear data points on a graph—they live and they learn. We got through the blocking nerfs, the sustain nerfs, and we learned that changes of that magnitude are survivable.
The very fact that people, already desensitised to previous such nerfs, are still deeply worried about the planned changes is strong indication that this is like nothing we've seen before.
So cut it with the extrapolation crap and address the actual arguments. You just look like a condescending fool otherwise.
To be fair, the crowd against the planned changes doesn't put forth any actual arguments either. Cast time is bad because: *states hypothetical situation where one would die on live without insta cast shield*, is not a good point.
I'd need both hands to count the number of people I've discussed this with that are not even aware of all of the changes relevant to this discussion, yet have an expert opinion on why the cast time needs to be reverted... It's discouraging to say the least.
If you want an argument for why its bad I'll give you one. The change completely flies in the face of the way the game is designed. Every form of active damage mitigation is reactionary, the enemy does X, you do Y. Block, roll dodging, ranging/stepping of stupid, and shielding are reactionary and the game has been designed with this reactionary playstyle in mind. Now suddenly with shields requiring a cast time shielding is no longer viable as a reactionary defense, you now have to be proactive and anticipate what an enemy is going to do ahead of time, which is not how the game has been played up until now. Putting cast time on shields is the equivalent of changing roll dodge so that you have to dodge before the attack even occurs to avoid the damage, its absurd.
If shields are over performing there are so many better ways to deal with it, lowering their values, making them unstackable, adding a streak/roll dodge style cost increase, the list could go on.
ALL shields will also be anywhere from 20-50% more potent on average (in PVE), potentially more now that the added duration allows for effective points to be spent in bastion.
And THANK YOU for arguing lol. This kind of dialogue is required (one would hope) steer ZOS in the right direction, especially in contrast to the knee-jerk outrage posts that are so common atm.
The shield changes absolutely IS equivalent to the dodge roll change I stated, everyone being able to dodge roll is irrelevant, you just don't want to accept that it is equivalent because that would force you to admit how utterly absurd the change is. Now you're just being intellectually dishonest, you know full well that proc shields are useless since you can't control when they proc. Further there are only 4 shields available to all classes, annulment, bone shield, barrier, and ward alley, of which only annulment is viable for magdps, bone shield is pathetically weak and costs stamina, something magdps have in short supply, barrier is an ultimate and having to save your ults just to protect yourself is a laughable idea, and ward alley requires a resto staff and no magdps is going to run with a resto staff in end game PVE.
The fact is adding a cast time to shields was a stupid and lazy way of dealing with them over performing.0 -
jaws343✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The_Outsider wrote: »
Seems like you're coming from a bit of a PVP perspective. I admit, I much less of an idea how the PVP situation will play out-- none of my PVP builds, mag or stam, are dependent on Ward or Harness. ZOS has taken 1 step to that end and announced making those 2 abilities immune to interrupts. It's also worth considering that every stamina build is receiving average of 15% mitigation nerf at the loss of passive dodge chance.The_Outsider wrote: »
The shield changes are not equivalent to changing dodge roll. Everyone can dodge roll, and it's not tied to a GCD. There are 2 shields that will have a cast time. 2 shields that have a more proactive function, and....what 10 others from various sources that are instant, proc'd or w/e.The_Outsider wrote: »I've been seeing a lot of posts using this same line of reasoning.
"Everyone freaked-out during X nerf in the past (typically M'wind sustain nerfs), therefore we can extrapolate that people are also overreacting now."
Do the people posting this drivel not realise how ass-backwards their logic is?
People aren't a bunch of linear data points on a graph—they live and they learn. We got through the blocking nerfs, the sustain nerfs, and we learned that changes of that magnitude are survivable.
The very fact that people, already desensitised to previous such nerfs, are still deeply worried about the planned changes is strong indication that this is like nothing we've seen before.
So cut it with the extrapolation crap and address the actual arguments. You just look like a condescending fool otherwise.
To be fair, the crowd against the planned changes doesn't put forth any actual arguments either. Cast time is bad because: *states hypothetical situation where one would die on live without insta cast shield*, is not a good point.
I'd need both hands to count the number of people I've discussed this with that are not even aware of all of the changes relevant to this discussion, yet have an expert opinion on why the cast time needs to be reverted... It's discouraging to say the least.
If you want an argument for why its bad I'll give you one. The change completely flies in the face of the way the game is designed. Every form of active damage mitigation is reactionary, the enemy does X, you do Y. Block, roll dodging, ranging/stepping of stupid, and shielding are reactionary and the game has been designed with this reactionary playstyle in mind. Now suddenly with shields requiring a cast time shielding is no longer viable as a reactionary defense, you now have to be proactive and anticipate what an enemy is going to do ahead of time, which is not how the game has been played up until now. Putting cast time on shields is the equivalent of changing roll dodge so that you have to dodge before the attack even occurs to avoid the damage, its absurd.
If shields are over performing there are so many better ways to deal with it, lowering their values, making them unstackable, adding a streak/roll dodge style cost increase, the list could go on.
ALL shields will also be anywhere from 20-50% more potent on average (in PVE), potentially more now that the added duration allows for effective points to be spent in bastion.
And THANK YOU for arguing lol. This kind of dialogue is required (one would hope) steer ZOS in the right direction, especially in contrast to the knee-jerk outrage posts that are so common atm.
The problem here is all of those reactionary shields you mentioned are pitifully small as it is. And now, with the addition of crit damage and resistances on the shields, they are going to be even weaker. Why? Because penetration is going to completely negate the resistances on the shield for most light armor builds. And sorc/light armor builds are going to have to build to be more tanky which decreases the amount of max magicka they can attain which decreases the strength of already tiny shields. So the added mitigation is gone due to penetration, and now that damage can crit on a shield.
So take healing ward for example. Let's say you are lucky to have a 10K shield before battle spirit. That shield is now 5K. A nightblade comes along and hits you with incap from cloak which is a guaranteed crit. You take 10K damage (more likely more) and you are now stunned. You break free, but before you have done that you took a 3K light attack and a 5K surprise attack. So now you are at or below 5K health on most light armor builds. You pop healing ward for a 5K shield and then attempt to hit that 1 second delayed hardened ward... During that 1 second of uselessness, the nightblade hits you with a 10K (that's being conservative) impale that rips right through your tiny, worthless shield, ignores the fact that you are just standing in a channel for a second, and kills you.
And that "hypothetical" attack is one that happens on live all of the time. And for the most part it can be survived with timing and quick response. With the cast time change to shield, this will never be survivable. Or, at least, it will never be survivable on a mag sorc build that could kill anything. Because in order to survive those types of attacks, or really any attacks, Mag sorcs are going to have to add a defensive set to their build. But mag sorcs already struggle with damage output and sustain in live while running 2 damage sets or 1 damage set and 1 sustain set. If you have to replace either one of those options, sorcs become useless and will struggle to kill anything outside of Xv1.
Making it uninterruptible doesn't change the fact that 1 second to cast something that will save your life makes that thing useless in PVP.
And from a PVE perspective, this is pretty bad too. You mention Add-ons that tell you when damage is incoming. Sounds like a crutch to me. A crutch that console players do not have access to. But even knowing when damage is incoming doesn't mean pre-casting a shield is going to be enough to mitigate that damage. Starfall requires shield and block to survive through it for mag characters. Why? because we don't have access to a heal over time like stam do. So, during a normal starfall during vet I cast shield through block maybe 3 or 4 times as it gets eaten away. Now, I have to pre-cast that shield and let's say that my mitigation only needs me to cast the shield a second time. Well when I go to do that, the cast time removes me from block and during that 1 second cast time where I am not blocking starfall, I am now dead. Or I could not re-cast the shield and I die anyways.
And the flame mechanic in Asylum which does enough damage to eat right through a shield. Better not be a vampire anymore with a 1 second cast time, you will die immediately. And if you drop being a vampire on a mag sorc, say goodbye to the very little sustain you had in the first place.
Or the flameshapers on the topside of vet Hel Ra. Good luck surviving them plus the meteors considering you cannot predict when they are going to do their mechanics, the shield are always going to be reactionary and unless your group is absolutely perfect and gets interrupts before any flames are cast at players, the flame shapers are going to eat players alive. This boss is already glitched and causing a ton of problems, making it excruciating to complete. Add in a 1 second shield cast time and this boss will be nearly impossible to get through.4 -
Mintaka5✭✭✭✭✭I don't mind a nerf, but adding a cast time is not a nerf it's straight up a disadvantage in terms of time. If I use shields I have to add an extra second to everything i do, and I'm not sure if you understand the bigger picture with most magicka based builds cast times are ridiculously long across the board. Playing magsorc make executing a rotation so delayed and ineffective versus faster more agile stamina builds.
I'd prefer a weaker shield than a cast time, but ZOS is gonna ZOS...Edited by Mintaka5 on September 20, 2018 8:48PM1 -
Krayl✭✭✭✭✭I think it's okay that they are trying to address how OP shields are.
My problem is adding a cast time. It's clunky and I simply don't agree with changing the feel and rhythm of the game and flow of combat by adding it; it's simply going to feel 'wrong' in the hands of anyone who uses shields regularly and has for years. a 1s cast time is a small thing, but its not like you are taking a 2s cast time skill and adding 1s; you're taking an instant skill people are used to weaving and suddenly adding a big fat clunky drop to your combat flow - and to me that is a step backwards.
IMHO there are other ways to fix it. Add an escalating mag. cost if you cast it in rapid succession. Increase the cast cost to make it less attractive to overuse. I'm not sure. I don't mind a minor shield nerf but I do mind things that add extra annoyance to the game, and that's what this does.
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Splattercat_83✭✭✭✭The_Outsider wrote: »
We know when lethal mechanics are coming. If we don't know, we learn. We literally have addons that count down from 5 when specific mechanics will occur (vAS/vCR).The_Outsider wrote: »I've been seeing a lot of posts using this same line of reasoning.
"Everyone freaked-out during X nerf in the past (typically M'wind sustain nerfs), therefore we can extrapolate that people are also overreacting now."
Do the people posting this drivel not realise how ass-backwards their logic is?
People aren't a bunch of linear data points on a graph—they live and they learn. We got through the blocking nerfs, the sustain nerfs, and we learned that changes of that magnitude are survivable.
The very fact that people, already desensitised to previous such nerfs, are still deeply worried about the planned changes is strong indication that this is like nothing we've seen before.
So cut it with the extrapolation crap and address the actual arguments. You just look like a condescending fool otherwise.
To be fair, the crowd against the planned changes doesn't put forth any actual arguments either. Cast time is bad because: *states hypothetical situation where one would die on live without insta cast shield*, is not a good point.
I'd need both hands to count the number of people I've discussed this with that are not even aware of all of the changes relevant to this discussion, yet have an expert opinion on why the cast time needs to be reverted... It's discouraging to say the least.
oh alright i have no problem with the 1sec cast time -- if all the raid bosses will signal their big attacks 1.3 seconds earlier than they do now.
1 sec to compensate for the nerf, 0.3 sec to compensate for the lag
If as an endgame raider you are only becoming aware a incoming lethal strike less than 1 second before it happens you are already doing it wrong-- putting unnecessary strain on your healers and your own sustain. Most end-game damage is best avoided, not shield spam reacted to.
inb4 someone lists llothis cone or starfall again, therefore we can't have a 1s cast time.
Console does not have access to add ons1 -
Splattercat_83✭✭✭✭... was when we removed stam recovery from blocking. Remember all those threads? The crying in every post? PVE is dead, RIP tanks, unsubbing, etc? I'm glad ZOS stuck to their guns and pushed that through because the game is better for it. I like that change and I still do, and I play a tank.
I like the Murkmire changes and I hope they do the same here, and not buckle to pressure. I'm quite happy with the changes.
I don't play a Sorc but I think Sorcs have had an easy ride in both pve and pvp for a long time, vMA as a perfect example. I hope these changes go through. I get people are emotionally attached to both their characters and their playstyles but an MMO is constantly evolving, and that means we have to evolve and adapt as players. Otherwise, we're just playing single player. If you never had to change gear, change specs, adapt playstyles, why would you keep playing? Where is the sense of progression?
If it's so easy why dont you go role a mag sorc and go run vet maelstrom or go pvp and see just how easy it really is. The game would be much better if they would just shut their mouths up instead of flapping their meat drapes about something they don't know a damn thing about and quit ruining the game for countless others.
Edited by Splattercat_83 on September 20, 2018 10:04PM0 -
Shinshadow✭✭✭✭The last time the community got massively upset, was with the sustain nerf on the Morrowind update.
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Conduit0✭✭✭✭✭
✭Shinshadow wrote: »The last time the community got massively upset, was with the sustain nerf on the Morrowind update.
And it turned out the outrage was justified since ZOS has spent the last several patches rolling back those changes. Now the question is will we have to wait over a year for ZOS to admit this newest change was wrong as well?1 -
KingExecration✭✭✭✭This is why I play multiple classes. Reading the patch notes from zos is like playing Russian roulette with a semi auto pistol. Something will usually get slashed. Sorcs were fairly easy fights unless they were top tier, they weren't easy to fight because they were just awesome at their class. RIP to anyone trying vma on a mag character or magden, mag sorc, and mag blade in pvp using harness. I look forward to seeing you all on magplars next update. This game needed a "breath of life" okay I'm done lmao.1
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WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The_Outsider wrote: »
We know when lethal mechanics are coming. If we don't know, we learn. We literally have addons that count down from 5 when specific mechanics will occur (vAS/vCR).The_Outsider wrote: »I've been seeing a lot of posts using this same line of reasoning.
"Everyone freaked-out during X nerf in the past (typically M'wind sustain nerfs), therefore we can extrapolate that people are also overreacting now."
Do the people posting this drivel not realise how ass-backwards their logic is?
People aren't a bunch of linear data points on a graph—they live and they learn. We got through the blocking nerfs, the sustain nerfs, and we learned that changes of that magnitude are survivable.
The very fact that people, already desensitised to previous such nerfs, are still deeply worried about the planned changes is strong indication that this is like nothing we've seen before.
So cut it with the extrapolation crap and address the actual arguments. You just look like a condescending fool otherwise.
To be fair, the crowd against the planned changes doesn't put forth any actual arguments either. Cast time is bad because: *states hypothetical situation where one would die on live without insta cast shield*, is not a good point.
I'd need both hands to count the number of people I've discussed this with that are not even aware of all of the changes relevant to this discussion, yet have an expert opinion on why the cast time needs to be reverted... It's discouraging to say the least.
oh alright i have no problem with the 1sec cast time -- if all the raid bosses will signal their big attacks 1.3 seconds earlier than they do now.
1 sec to compensate for the nerf, 0.3 sec to compensate for the lag
If as an endgame raider you are only becoming aware a incoming lethal strike less than 1 second before it happens you are already doing it wrong-- putting unnecessary strain on your healers and your own sustain. Most end-game damage is best avoided, not shield spam reacted to.
inb4 someone lists llothis cone or starfall again, therefore we can't have a 1s cast time.
@The_Outsider It’s not the first hit that will kill you. It’s having to stand there channeling the next shield, while you cannot block, and damage is still incoming. Have you run vAS in HM? The shield change will not affect vAS+0 much.
It’s when you are stuck in the narrow entrance area, taking damage from Olms jumping, while someone gets targeted by Llothis cone in group, and then Felms decides to throw a double bomb on entrance. The shield that you started casting 2s ago because you predicted damage was coming is not going to save you. Best case you spread out as much as possible, block, spam shields, and pray that no more than 3 mechanics hit you within 1s of each other.0 -
Didgerion✭✭✭✭✭
✭... was when we removed stam recovery from blocking. Remember all those threads? The crying in every post? PVE is dead, RIP tanks, unsubbing, etc? I'm glad ZOS stuck to their guns and pushed that through because the game is better for it. I like that change and I still do, and I play a tank.
I like the Murkmire changes and I hope they do the same here, and not buckle to pressure. I'm quite happy with the changes.
I don't play a Sorc but I think Sorcs have had an easy ride in both pve and pvp for a long time, vMA as a perfect example. I hope these changes go through. I get people are emotionally attached to both their characters and their playstyles but an MMO is constantly evolving, and that means we have to evolve and adapt as players. Otherwise, we're just playing single player. If you never had to change gear, change specs, adapt playstyles, why would you keep playing? Where is the sense of progression?
Of course they had to remove Stam recovery after the CP-tree disaster. That CP tree btw is the reason why shields are so fat in pve. Also they are still fixing permablocking lol.0
