Last time we had a big meltdown over a giant nerf...?

Ankaridan · September 2018

... was when we removed stam recovery from blocking. Remember all those threads? The crying in every post? PVE is dead, RIP tanks, unsubbing, etc? I'm glad ZOS stuck to their guns and pushed that through because the game is better for it. I like that change and I still do, and I play a tank.

I like the Murkmire changes and I hope they do the same here, and not buckle to pressure. I'm quite happy with the changes.

I don't play a Sorc but I think Sorcs have had an easy ride in both pve and pvp for a long time, vMA as a perfect example. I hope these changes go through. I get people are emotionally attached to both their characters and their playstyles but an MMO is constantly evolving, and that means we have to evolve and adapt as players. Otherwise, we're just playing single player. If you never had to change gear, change specs, adapt playstyles, why would you keep playing? Where is the sense of progression?

Savos_Saren · September 2018

Ankaridan wrote: »

... was when we removed stam recovery from blocking. Remember all those threads? The crying in every post? PVE is dead, RIP tanks, unsubbing, etc? I'm glad ZOS stuck to their guns and pushed that through because the game is better for it. I like that change and I still do, and I play a tank.

I like the Murkmire changes and I hope they do the same here, and not buckle to pressure. I'm quite happy with the changes.

I don't play a Sorc but I think Sorcs have had an easy ride in both pve and pvp for a long time, vMA as a perfect example. I hope these changes go through. I get people are emotionally attached to both their characters and their playstyles but an MMO is constantly evolving, and that means we have to evolve and adapt as players. Otherwise, we're just playing single player. If you never had to change gear, change specs, adapt playstyles, why would you keep playing? Where is the sense of progression?

I mean... you're not wrong.

ZOS did go through with the nerfs to blocking and made permablocking DKs/Templars just deal with it. As I said in another thread- perhaps the Sorcs are going to have to just deal with it.

...but don't worry. I foresee a cloak nerf coming soon. I'm guessing they're going to take DOT while cloaked (without it unstealthing them, though). It'll cause NBs to have to be more decisive about quickly reengaging their targets... or move away to heal up (just like the rest of us do, now).

Drdeath20 · September 2018

Pretty much every patch

leepalmer95 · September 2018

How can you say something is easy if you don't play it?

Mr_Wolfe · September 2018

While I agree with the sentiment, there's a difference between a feeling of progression and having the goalposts shifted every few months. When you have to keep starting over at square one, it isn't progress.

WuffyCerulei · September 2018

It's not just sorcs that suffer though. Magicka people in all classes suffer with Annulment having the cast time. Like over half the effin community in pve and pvp.

Ozazz · September 2018

Ankaridan wrote: »

... was when we removed stam recovery from blocking. Remember all those threads? The crying in every post? PVE is dead, RIP tanks, unsubbing, etc? I'm glad ZOS stuck to their guns and pushed that through because the game is better for it. I like that change and I still do, and I play a tank.

I like the Murkmire changes and I hope they do the same here, and not buckle to pressure. I'm quite happy with the changes.

I don't play a Sorc but I think Sorcs have had an easy ride in both pve and pvp for a long time, vMA as a perfect example. I hope these changes go through. I get people are emotionally attached to both their characters and their playstyles but an MMO is constantly evolving, and that means we have to evolve and adapt as players. Otherwise, we're just playing single player. If you never had to change gear, change specs, adapt playstyles, why would you keep playing? Where is the sense of progression?

notice how no one liked your post buddy
you say easy ride, i would absolutely love to see some 1st person combat from yourself proving you can even play the class
before you think you're entitled to a credible opinion on the subject matter
There is literally some many flaws with everything you've stated

Narvuntien · September 2018

Morrowind patch was the last time it was this bad.. but it pretty much happens every patch.
They have been rolling back the morrowind patch sustain changes ever since.

The question now is if can they come up with and implement a solution to the shields stuff that people would be less outraged by within the next couple of weeks or if it will take another 3 months.

The first patch on the PTS always signals their intentions but they do still make changes but typically every second PTS patch since they bug fix then change then bug fix then change. I'd wait two weeks before I got very angry, signal displeasure of course but don't rage quit the game.

Cadbury · September 2018

This is the only MMO I've played where I dread every time patch notes come up.
On some level, that's kinda impressive.

TheYKcid · September 2018

I've been seeing a lot of posts using this same line of reasoning.

"Everyone freaked-out during X nerf in the past (typically M'wind sustain nerfs), therefore we can extrapolate that people are also overreacting now."

Do the people posting this drivel not realise how ass-backwards their logic is?

People aren't a bunch of linear data points on a graph—they live and they learn. We got through the blocking nerfs, the sustain nerfs, and we learned that changes of that magnitude are survivable.

The very fact that people, already desensitised to previous such nerfs, are still deeply worried about the planned changes is strong indication that this is like nothing we've seen before.

So cut it with the extrapolation crap and address the actual arguments. You just look like a condescending fool otherwise.

kadar · September 2018

TheYKcid wrote: »

I've been seeing a lot of posts using this same line of reasoning.

"Everyone freaked-out during X nerf in the past (typically M'wind sustain nerfs), therefore we can extrapolate that people are also overreacting now."

Do the people posting this drivel not realise how ass-backwards their logic is?

People aren't a bunch of linear data points on a graph—they live and they learn. We got through the blocking nerfs, the sustain nerfs, and we learned that changes of that magnitude are survivable.

The very fact that people, already desensitised to previous such nerfs, are still deeply worried about the planned changes is strong indication that this is like nothing we've seen before.

So cut it with the extrapolation crap and address the actual arguments. You just look like a condescending fool otherwise.

To be fair, the crowd against the planned changes doesn't put forth any actual arguments either. Cast time is bad because: *states hypothetical situation where one would die on live without insta cast shield*, is not a good point.

I'd need both hands to count the number of people I've discussed this with that are not even aware of all of the changes relevant to this discussion, yet have an expert opinion on why the cast time needs to be reverted... It's discouraging to say the least.

Girl_Number8 · September 2018

After this 'I don't play a Sorc but' your I words became meaningless~

Let's see if you are smiling when they nerf your builds into the groud, so you have some extra crafters to decorate your house with~

Conduit0 · September 2018

The_Outsider wrote: »

TheYKcid wrote: »

I've been seeing a lot of posts using this same line of reasoning.

"Everyone freaked-out during X nerf in the past (typically M'wind sustain nerfs), therefore we can extrapolate that people are also overreacting now."

Do the people posting this drivel not realise how ass-backwards their logic is?

People aren't a bunch of linear data points on a graph—they live and they learn. We got through the blocking nerfs, the sustain nerfs, and we learned that changes of that magnitude are survivable.

The very fact that people, already desensitised to previous such nerfs, are still deeply worried about the planned changes is strong indication that this is like nothing we've seen before.

So cut it with the extrapolation crap and address the actual arguments. You just look like a condescending fool otherwise.

To be fair, the crowd against the planned changes doesn't put forth any actual arguments either. Cast time is bad because: *states hypothetical situation where one would die on live without insta cast shield*, is not a good point.

I'd need both hands to count the number of people I've discussed this with that are not even aware of all of the changes relevant to this discussion, yet have an expert opinion on why the cast time needs to be reverted... It's discouraging to say the least.

If you want an argument for why its bad I'll give you one. The change completely flies in the face of the way the game is designed. Every form of active damage mitigation is reactionary, the enemy does X, you do Y. Block, roll dodging, ranging/stepping of stupid, and shielding are reactionary and the game has been designed with this reactionary playstyle in mind. Now suddenly with shields requiring a cast time shielding is no longer viable as a reactionary defense, you now have to be proactive and anticipate what an enemy is going to do ahead of time, which is not how the game has been played up until now. Putting cast time on shields is the equivalent of changing roll dodge so that you have to dodge before the attack even occurs to avoid the damage, its absurd.

If shields are over performing there are so many better ways to deal with it, lowering their values, making them unstackable, adding a streak/roll dodge style cost increase, the list could go on.

Conduit0 · September 2018

Conduit0 wrote: »

If you want an argument for why its bad I'll give you one. The change completely flies in the face of the way the game is designed. Every form of active damage mitigation is reactionary, the enemy does X, you do Y. Block, roll dodging, ranging/stepping of stupid, and shielding are reactionary and the game has been designed with this reactionary playstyle in mind. Now suddenly with shields requiring a cast time shielding is no longer viable as a reactionary defense, you now have to be proactive and anticipate what an enemy is going to do ahead of time, which is not how the game has been played up until now. Putting cast time on shields is the equivalent of changing roll dodge so that you have to dodge before the attack even occurs to avoid the damage, its absurd.

If shields are over performing there are so many better ways to deal with it, lowering their values, making them unstackable, adding a streak/roll dodge style cost increase, the list could go on.

Speaking of proactive defense, I wonder if anyone has tried vHRC on the PTS, I'm curious how difficult it is to survive Star Fall on a magdps with the shield change.

eso_nya · September 2018

That was not the last big meltdown.
iirr:
- armor skills need 5 of same type
- nerf to trees
- sustain change in Morrowind
- elemental rage
- change to battle roar
- j-beam, soulstrike, bol, repentance (somewhere round here?)
- black rose (the armor set with the same name as the new weaponsets)
- shields lasting for 6 seconds
- adding shieldbreaker
- battlesprirt cutting dmg, heal and shield in half
- no stam regen while blocking goes here i think
- blazing shield
- the change bringing mortality to vemperors (dynamic ulti?)
- blinding light

a lot of bothans drowned in tears after bringing us patchnotes

kadar · September 2018

Conduit0 wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

TheYKcid wrote: »

I've been seeing a lot of posts using this same line of reasoning.

"Everyone freaked-out during X nerf in the past (typically M'wind sustain nerfs), therefore we can extrapolate that people are also overreacting now."

Do the people posting this drivel not realise how ass-backwards their logic is?

People aren't a bunch of linear data points on a graph—they live and they learn. We got through the blocking nerfs, the sustain nerfs, and we learned that changes of that magnitude are survivable.

The very fact that people, already desensitised to previous such nerfs, are still deeply worried about the planned changes is strong indication that this is like nothing we've seen before.

So cut it with the extrapolation crap and address the actual arguments. You just look like a condescending fool otherwise.

To be fair, the crowd against the planned changes doesn't put forth any actual arguments either. Cast time is bad because: *states hypothetical situation where one would die on live without insta cast shield*, is not a good point.

I'd need both hands to count the number of people I've discussed this with that are not even aware of all of the changes relevant to this discussion, yet have an expert opinion on why the cast time needs to be reverted... It's discouraging to say the least.

If you want an argument for why its bad I'll give you one. The change completely flies in the face of the way the game is designed. Every form of active damage mitigation is reactionary, the enemy does X, you do Y. Block, roll dodging, ranging/stepping of stupid, and shielding are reactionary and the game has been designed with this reactionary playstyle in mind. Now suddenly with shields requiring a cast time shielding is no longer viable as a reactionary defense, you now have to be proactive and anticipate what an enemy is going to do ahead of time, which is not how the game has been played up until now. Putting cast time on shields is the equivalent of changing roll dodge so that you have to dodge before the attack even occurs to avoid the damage, its absurd.

If shields are over performing there are so many better ways to deal with it, lowering their values, making them unstackable, adding a streak/roll dodge style cost increase, the list could go on.

The shield changes are not equivalent to changing dodge roll. Everyone can dodge roll, and it's not tied to a GCD. There are 2 shields that will have a cast time. 2 shields that have a more proactive function, and....what 10 others from various sources that are instant, proc'd or w/e.

ALL shields will also be anywhere from 20-50% more potent on average (in PVE), potentially more now that the added duration allows for effective points to be spent in bastion.

And THANK YOU for arguing lol. This kind of dialogue is required (one would hope) steer ZOS in the right direction, especially in contrast to the knee-jerk outrage posts that are so common atm.

IZZEFlameLash · September 2018

Nothing to like about Mirkmire patch. I feel like only people that like this change are the ones that got rekt by a mSorc.

RavenSworn · September 2018

I think it all comes down to adjusting your gear and playstyle. While I don't like the new cast times for shields, we've got to understand that we don't have the full picture that ZoS has in terms of stats.

Perhaps sorc shields and harness magicka was over performing in terms of usage. I mean, for all the positive, great changes for synergy, bone shield is still not as common as I would think it would. Shield healing is still frowned upon in dlc dungeons.

I'm just quite perplexed, is there anything wrong in being proactive? Being reactive means you are always on the back foot, wouldn't that be against with what you would do in pvp?

Zoal_AUG · September 2018

Well whenever it was about nerfing dk no matter the crying on forums they always got trough. As we remember zos wanted to nerf hunting curse and due to extensive suicidal threats and histerical behaviour of our fellow sorcerer heroes it got reverted and on top of that buffed

thankyourat · September 2018

I was for a shield change because I did feel they were too strong (I only play magicka) on my mag sorc and to a lesser extent my magblade I could pretty much stall out any player as long as I had enough regen and with harness magicka I have infinite sustain against magicka builds. I actually like the crit change but this cast time change is horrible. I would rather the shields be reduced in size than have a cast time added. The reason being is now when you take any pressure you have to disengage and LoS to get a shield up. Which will just kill all your pressure you are applying. This is devastating for solo play in groups I think this change doesn't really matter much and in duels I'm pretty sure I can still make a strong pet build. But I don't know what I'll do for 1vX PvP.

Edit: this is pretty much the end of light armor PvP. You might as well run heavy on everything

raj72616a · September 2018

The_Outsider wrote: »

TheYKcid wrote: »

I've been seeing a lot of posts using this same line of reasoning.

"Everyone freaked-out during X nerf in the past (typically M'wind sustain nerfs), therefore we can extrapolate that people are also overreacting now."

Do the people posting this drivel not realise how ass-backwards their logic is?

People aren't a bunch of linear data points on a graph—they live and they learn. We got through the blocking nerfs, the sustain nerfs, and we learned that changes of that magnitude are survivable.

The very fact that people, already desensitised to previous such nerfs, are still deeply worried about the planned changes is strong indication that this is like nothing we've seen before.

So cut it with the extrapolation crap and address the actual arguments. You just look like a condescending fool otherwise.

To be fair, the crowd against the planned changes doesn't put forth any actual arguments either. Cast time is bad because: *states hypothetical situation where one would die on live without insta cast shield*, is not a good point.

I'd need both hands to count the number of people I've discussed this with that are not even aware of all of the changes relevant to this discussion, yet have an expert opinion on why the cast time needs to be reverted... It's discouraging to say the least.

oh alright i have no problem with the 1sec cast time -- if all the raid bosses will signal their big attacks 1.3 seconds earlier than they do now.

1 sec to compensate for the nerf, 0.3 sec to compensate for the lag

kylewwefan · September 2018

Biggest nerf meltdown, probably the one Deltia was digging holes in his backyard to bury ESO. What a tool! LOL! He’s better now.

I guess they nerffed DK or Templars or something...I don’t remember?

Anyways, the game continues on. Those changes were so bad. I can’t even remember what they were? That is telling enough.

I play a Stamina and magic version of every class. I’m not really particularly married to any one, or super good on one class, but I can play them all decently.

Remember shields used to last like 30 seconds or some ridiculously long time. Now they’re 6 seconds. Seems a little too short. Gonna go to 9, but have a cast time.

Will you be able to block cast that? Will the Psijic Shield protect me while casting this shield?

Other damage shield options.

I don’t see this really killing anything. It makes us more diverse. Like we got to use bone shield, igneous, shimmer, sun etc. much smaller, but they take on armor mitigation now so more affected by build than max resources.

Got to learn what works and make better well rounded builds. I think that’s a good thing. Looking forward to it.

WrathOfInnos · September 2018

Ankaridan wrote: »

I'm quite happy with the changes.

Ankaridan wrote: »

I don't play a Sorc but I think Sorcs have had an easy ride in both pve and pvp for a long time

Maybe try it before making a thread with your opinions?

And this is nothing like the blocking stamina regen change. If we want to do a comparison, imagine how tanking would be if they added a 2s channel between when you press the block key and when you begin blocking. A lot of enemy attacks don’t even have a telegraph that long.

LiquidPony · September 2018

WuffyCerulei wrote: »

It's not just sorcs that suffer though. Magicka people in all classes suffer with Annulment having the cast time. Like over half the effin community in pve and pvp.

And also, it's not *just* the fact that sorcs had their shields nerfed ...

It's that they didn't get anything else useful. They are actually worse in PvE now than they were before the patch, because the increased cost of Elemental Weapon is a direct nerf to a class that lacks a spammable.

I really do think that there are going to be some sorc changes incoming in future PTS patches, though. I predict that Dark Deal will be made instant cast and pets will be changed in some way (they'll either be invincible or they'll only need to be slotted on one bar).

Oreyn_Bearclaw · September 2018

Funny how the perception remains how OP sorcs are, even though those making the assumptions often dont even play them (looking at you OP). Well, sorcs are currently garbage in PVE from a damage standpoint. Every magic class has a shield, and to be frank, the difference between harness and hardened it negligible in most PVE content. Sorcs are currently in third place for top VMA score behind NB and DK, so not exactly OP there.

In PVP, yes, sorcs will get hurt the most by this, no question. People claim them to be easy mode, yet any competent player knows that magic sorcs are not the best 1vx class, they are not the best dueling class, they certainly arent the tankiest class, they arent the most mobile class. The only thing they truly excel at is ranged burst, kill stealing in BGs, and simplicity of their defense. So while they might be easier to play, they have a lower ceiling than just about any class. A shield stack is admittedly not hard to do, but when you stack it up to other forms of mitigation, it becomes quite clear that there are way better options to defend. The problem is, a sorc is pigeon holed into a shield stack. They cant vanish in an instant, they dont have a reliable burst heal (sorry the stupid pet doesnt count, and DC mid combat will mostly likely get you killed), and they have by far the least amount of access to major minor buffs of any class. I am not saying there arent ways to adapt, but this is perhaps the most fundamental change to a class we have every seen. Sorcs are going to have to completely change the way they approach PVP, and I cant for the life of me justify why it's necessary.

For the record, I play mageblade in PVE for the last year, and have been playing stamblade in PVP since the RC fiasco. I dont have a dog in this fight other than I want to see balance. I have every character for a reason. I will play the meta in PVE, and wont put myself at an obvious disadvantage in PVP. What I will say, is that if you think sorcs are OP in either environment at this point, you simply have no idea WTF you are talking about, because objectively, they are not.

Donny_Vito · September 2018

Every time I see a post about the changes on PTS (not even live yet!), and how people are unsubbing and going to quit I actually laugh out loud. Some people are just divas and over-dramatic. All those people that drop the "L2P" phrase should replace it with "L2A" -- learn to adapt.

jaws343 · September 2018

The_Outsider wrote: »

Conduit0 wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

TheYKcid wrote: »

I've been seeing a lot of posts using this same line of reasoning.

"Everyone freaked-out during X nerf in the past (typically M'wind sustain nerfs), therefore we can extrapolate that people are also overreacting now."

Do the people posting this drivel not realise how ass-backwards their logic is?

People aren't a bunch of linear data points on a graph—they live and they learn. We got through the blocking nerfs, the sustain nerfs, and we learned that changes of that magnitude are survivable.

The very fact that people, already desensitised to previous such nerfs, are still deeply worried about the planned changes is strong indication that this is like nothing we've seen before.

So cut it with the extrapolation crap and address the actual arguments. You just look like a condescending fool otherwise.

To be fair, the crowd against the planned changes doesn't put forth any actual arguments either. Cast time is bad because: *states hypothetical situation where one would die on live without insta cast shield*, is not a good point.

I'd need both hands to count the number of people I've discussed this with that are not even aware of all of the changes relevant to this discussion, yet have an expert opinion on why the cast time needs to be reverted... It's discouraging to say the least.

If you want an argument for why its bad I'll give you one. The change completely flies in the face of the way the game is designed. Every form of active damage mitigation is reactionary, the enemy does X, you do Y. Block, roll dodging, ranging/stepping of stupid, and shielding are reactionary and the game has been designed with this reactionary playstyle in mind. Now suddenly with shields requiring a cast time shielding is no longer viable as a reactionary defense, you now have to be proactive and anticipate what an enemy is going to do ahead of time, which is not how the game has been played up until now. Putting cast time on shields is the equivalent of changing roll dodge so that you have to dodge before the attack even occurs to avoid the damage, its absurd.

If shields are over performing there are so many better ways to deal with it, lowering their values, making them unstackable, adding a streak/roll dodge style cost increase, the list could go on.

The shield changes are not equivalent to changing dodge roll. Everyone can dodge roll, and it's not tied to a GCD. There are 2 shields that will have a cast time. 2 shields that have a more proactive function, and....what 10 others from various sources that are instant, proc'd or w/e.

ALL shields will also be anywhere from 20-50% more potent on average (in PVE), potentially more now that the added duration allows for effective points to be spent in bastion.

And THANK YOU for arguing lol. This kind of dialogue is required (one would hope) steer ZOS in the right direction, especially in contrast to the knee-jerk outrage posts that are so common atm.

The problem here is all of those reactionary shields you mentioned are pitifully small as it is. And now, with the addition of crit damage and resistances on the shields, they are going to be even weaker. Why? Because penetration is going to completely negate the resistances on the shield for most light armor builds. And sorc/light armor builds are going to have to build to be more tanky which decreases the amount of max magicka they can attain which decreases the strength of already tiny shields. So the added mitigation is gone due to penetration, and now that damage can crit on a shield.

So take healing ward for example. Let's say you are lucky to have a 10K shield before battle spirit. That shield is now 5K. A nightblade comes along and hits you with incap from cloak which is a guaranteed crit. You take 10K damage (more likely more) and you are now stunned. You break free, but before you have done that you took a 3K light attack and a 5K surprise attack. So now you are at or below 5K health on most light armor builds. You pop healing ward for a 5K shield and then attempt to hit that 1 second delayed hardened ward... During that 1 second of uselessness, the nightblade hits you with a 10K (that's being conservative) impale that rips right through your tiny, worthless shield, ignores the fact that you are just standing in a channel for a second, and kills you.

And that "hypothetical" attack is one that happens on live all of the time. And for the most part it can be survived with timing and quick response. With the cast time change to shield, this will never be survivable. Or, at least, it will never be survivable on a mag sorc build that could kill anything. Because in order to survive those types of attacks, or really any attacks, Mag sorcs are going to have to add a defensive set to their build. But mag sorcs already struggle with damage output and sustain in live while running 2 damage sets or 1 damage set and 1 sustain set. If you have to replace either one of those options, sorcs become useless and will struggle to kill anything outside of Xv1.

kadar · September 2018

raj72616a wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

TheYKcid wrote: »

I've been seeing a lot of posts using this same line of reasoning.

"Everyone freaked-out during X nerf in the past (typically M'wind sustain nerfs), therefore we can extrapolate that people are also overreacting now."

Do the people posting this drivel not realise how ass-backwards their logic is?

People aren't a bunch of linear data points on a graph—they live and they learn. We got through the blocking nerfs, the sustain nerfs, and we learned that changes of that magnitude are survivable.

The very fact that people, already desensitised to previous such nerfs, are still deeply worried about the planned changes is strong indication that this is like nothing we've seen before.

So cut it with the extrapolation crap and address the actual arguments. You just look like a condescending fool otherwise.

To be fair, the crowd against the planned changes doesn't put forth any actual arguments either. Cast time is bad because: *states hypothetical situation where one would die on live without insta cast shield*, is not a good point.

I'd need both hands to count the number of people I've discussed this with that are not even aware of all of the changes relevant to this discussion, yet have an expert opinion on why the cast time needs to be reverted... It's discouraging to say the least.

oh alright i have no problem with the 1sec cast time -- if all the raid bosses will signal their big attacks 1.3 seconds earlier than they do now.

1 sec to compensate for the nerf, 0.3 sec to compensate for the lag

We know when lethal mechanics are coming. If we don't know, we learn. We literally have addons that count down from 5 when specific mechanics will occur (vAS/vCR).

If as an endgame raider you are only becoming aware a incoming lethal strike less than 1 second before it happens you are already doing it wrong-- putting unnecessary strain on your healers and your own sustain. Most end-game damage is best avoided, not shield spam reacted to.

inb4 someone lists llothis cone or starfall again, therefore we can't have a 1s cast time.

kadar · September 2018

jaws343 wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

Conduit0 wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

TheYKcid wrote: »

I've been seeing a lot of posts using this same line of reasoning.

"Everyone freaked-out during X nerf in the past (typically M'wind sustain nerfs), therefore we can extrapolate that people are also overreacting now."

Do the people posting this drivel not realise how ass-backwards their logic is?

People aren't a bunch of linear data points on a graph—they live and they learn. We got through the blocking nerfs, the sustain nerfs, and we learned that changes of that magnitude are survivable.

The very fact that people, already desensitised to previous such nerfs, are still deeply worried about the planned changes is strong indication that this is like nothing we've seen before.

So cut it with the extrapolation crap and address the actual arguments. You just look like a condescending fool otherwise.

To be fair, the crowd against the planned changes doesn't put forth any actual arguments either. Cast time is bad because: *states hypothetical situation where one would die on live without insta cast shield*, is not a good point.

I'd need both hands to count the number of people I've discussed this with that are not even aware of all of the changes relevant to this discussion, yet have an expert opinion on why the cast time needs to be reverted... It's discouraging to say the least.

If you want an argument for why its bad I'll give you one. The change completely flies in the face of the way the game is designed. Every form of active damage mitigation is reactionary, the enemy does X, you do Y. Block, roll dodging, ranging/stepping of stupid, and shielding are reactionary and the game has been designed with this reactionary playstyle in mind. Now suddenly with shields requiring a cast time shielding is no longer viable as a reactionary defense, you now have to be proactive and anticipate what an enemy is going to do ahead of time, which is not how the game has been played up until now. Putting cast time on shields is the equivalent of changing roll dodge so that you have to dodge before the attack even occurs to avoid the damage, its absurd.

If shields are over performing there are so many better ways to deal with it, lowering their values, making them unstackable, adding a streak/roll dodge style cost increase, the list could go on.

The shield changes are not equivalent to changing dodge roll. Everyone can dodge roll, and it's not tied to a GCD. There are 2 shields that will have a cast time. 2 shields that have a more proactive function, and....what 10 others from various sources that are instant, proc'd or w/e.

ALL shields will also be anywhere from 20-50% more potent on average (in PVE), potentially more now that the added duration allows for effective points to be spent in bastion.

And THANK YOU for arguing lol. This kind of dialogue is required (one would hope) steer ZOS in the right direction, especially in contrast to the knee-jerk outrage posts that are so common atm.

The problem here is all of those reactionary shields you mentioned are pitifully small as it is. And now, with the addition of crit damage and resistances on the shields, they are going to be even weaker. Why? Because penetration is going to completely negate the resistances on the shield for most light armor builds. And sorc/light armor builds are going to have to build to be more tanky which decreases the amount of max magicka they can attain which decreases the strength of already tiny shields. So the added mitigation is gone due to penetration, and now that damage can crit on a shield.

So take healing ward for example. Let's say you are lucky to have a 10K shield before battle spirit. That shield is now 5K. A nightblade comes along and hits you with incap from cloak which is a guaranteed crit. You take 10K damage (more likely more) and you are now stunned. You break free, but before you have done that you took a 3K light attack and a 5K surprise attack. So now you are at or below 5K health on most light armor builds. You pop healing ward for a 5K shield and then attempt to hit that 1 second delayed hardened ward... During that 1 second of uselessness, the nightblade hits you with a 10K (that's being conservative) impale that rips right through your tiny, worthless shield, ignores the fact that you are just standing in a channel for a second, and kills you.

And that "hypothetical" attack is one that happens on live all of the time. And for the most part it can be survived with timing and quick response. With the cast time change to shield, this will never be survivable. Or, at least, it will never be survivable on a mag sorc build that could kill anything. Because in order to survive those types of attacks, or really any attacks, Mag sorcs are going to have to add a defensive set to their build. But mag sorcs already struggle with damage output and sustain in live while running 2 damage sets or 1 damage set and 1 sustain set. If you have to replace either one of those options, sorcs become useless and will struggle to kill anything outside of Xv1.

Seems like you're coming from a bit of a PVP perspective. I admit, I much less of an idea how the PVP situation will play out-- none of my PVP builds, mag or stam, are dependent on Ward or Harness. ZOS has taken 1 step to that end and announced making those 2 abilities immune to interrupts. It's also worth considering that every stamina build is receiving average of 15% mitigation nerf at the loss of passive dodge chance.

The_Lex · September 2018

Last time we had a big meltdown over a giant nerf...?

We lost more than a few veterans. Quite a few trials guides disbanded.

...and ZOS has been walking back the sustain nerfs in one form or another over the last few patches

Donny_Vito · September 2018

If people quit because of a few changes (or if you want to call them nerfs) and they are unwilling to adapt to the new circumstance then that is just pathetic. Shows the true character of that person. If you quit because you don't enjoy the game anymore then that is something completely different, but if your motivation to quit is because you're pissed off at a new update and you want to prove a point to ZOS then you're fooling yourself.