What do you guys think of minor toughness only be accessible on Wardens now?

Tasear · September 2018

Minor toughness gives allies 10% more health

Maturation: The Minor Toughness granted by this passive now applies even if the target was completely over-healed, and its duration has been increased to 10/20 seconds from 5/10 seconds.

Dev comment: The goal of this change is to ensure that all types of Wardens now have the ability to bring Minor Toughness to the group

Will this make warden required for group content? Well it be dps, tank or healer? Will this cause other classes to feel limited in coming into a role?

Darthbell · September 2018

Minor toughness for wardens is not new. The removal of minor toughness from war horn is the change to try to force people to use them in trials. It's a very misguided half hearted attempt at balance.

LeHarrt91 · September 2018

I agree that is a bit half hearted. If anything Warhorn should have kept Minor Toughness and make Warden a flat 10% which stacks.

But this change is not going to help Warden DPS into trials, especially Magicka Wardens now.

leepalmer95 · September 2018

They're trying to make sure there is atleast 1 class in every trial by buffing all the class passive which give crit/ dmg/ hp etc...

I think it's fine.

Tasear · September 2018

Darthbell wrote: »

Minor toughness for wardens is not new. The removal of minor toughness from war horn is the change to try to force people to use them in trials. It's a very misguided half hearted attempt at balance.

Well I mean what do you guys think about it being the only source for groups. Is this overpowered?

leepalmer95 · September 2018

Tasear wrote: »

Darthbell wrote: »

Minor toughness for wardens is not new. The removal of minor toughness from war horn is the change to try to force people to use them in trials. It's a very misguided half hearted attempt at balance.

Well I mean what do you guys think about it being the only source for groups. Is this overpowered?

Nah, a bit p2w maybe but i'm sure 1 person in a 12 man trial has a warden.

It's better than 8 player being nb's.

At least this way it forced 5 people to be different classes with the minor buffs.

Tasear · September 2018

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Darthbell wrote: »

Minor toughness for wardens is not new. The removal of minor toughness from war horn is the change to try to force people to use them in trials. It's a very misguided half hearted attempt at balance.

Well I mean what do you guys think about it being the only source for groups. Is this overpowered?

Nah, a bit p2w maybe but i'm sure 1 person in a 12 man trial has a warden.

It's better than 8 player being nb's.

At least this way it forced 5 people to be different classes with the minor buffs.

The concern many players have expressed is that it will make templar/warden the only good healing comb or even more so.

leepalmer95 · September 2018

Tasear wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Darthbell wrote: »

Minor toughness for wardens is not new. The removal of minor toughness from war horn is the change to try to force people to use them in trials. It's a very misguided half hearted attempt at balance.

Well I mean what do you guys think about it being the only source for groups. Is this overpowered?

Nah, a bit p2w maybe but i'm sure 1 person in a 12 man trial has a warden.

It's better than 8 player being nb's.

At least this way it forced 5 people to be different classes with the minor buffs.

The concern many players have expressed is that it will make templar/warden the only good healing comb or even more so.

Well zos keep switching their minds about the whole 'any class any role' thing.

Sometimes they change it to make classes more viable healers or such, then they nerf nb healers. I can see why they nerfed the nb off heals but it still hurt nb healers.

Faulgor · September 2018

Tasear wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Darthbell wrote: »

Minor toughness for wardens is not new. The removal of minor toughness from war horn is the change to try to force people to use them in trials. It's a very misguided half hearted attempt at balance.

Well I mean what do you guys think about it being the only source for groups. Is this overpowered?

Nah, a bit p2w maybe but i'm sure 1 person in a 12 man trial has a warden.

It's better than 8 player being nb's.

At least this way it forced 5 people to be different classes with the minor buffs.

The concern many players have expressed is that it will make templar/warden the only good healing comb or even more so.

Yeah, the only issue I can see that this only applies to warden healers, maybe tanks to a lesser extent. Warden DPS will not be more likely to find a group spot with this.

DenniMyuu · September 2018

I think it is a very nice change and small step into the right direction. Warden had Minor Toughness before but making the passive completely useless since the majority uses horn with decent uptimes anyway. It sure might seem halfhearted to "force" Wardens into groups but I guess it was the obvious reaction to "we want a unique buff for everyone". Just inventing a new minor buff just so it hasn't existed before so it feels somewhat special doesn't really make the cut either.

Is it overpowered? No. Any unique buff that can only be provided by one class only would be overpowered then. I won't change my mind in liking this change as it is for now since it's a small step into the direction we wanted. You can't always have it all at once so I'm glad it got acknowledged to some point for now. I mean jeez nothing is set in stone and we will have more changes in the future to the actual result people want for sure.
(Speaking from a Warden healer pov :>)

Namarkas · September 2018

As others have already stated, the issue with this is that it makes a warden healer mandatory if you want to have that buff. At least in my opinion, you cannot really apply this as tank or dd in many fights. Pretty much any scenario where group stacking is an issue only a healer can effectivly apply this. And that are the fights were you usually want the buff, no?
Yes you can try to slot vigor or mushrooms as dd/tank, but good luck with that in AS for example

Namarkas · September 2018

DenniMyuu wrote: »

I think it is a very nice change and small step into the right direction. Warden had Minor Toughness before but making the passive completely useless since the majority uses horn with decent uptimes anyway. It sure might seem halfhearted to "force" Wardens into groups but I guess it was the obvious reaction to "we want a unique buff for everyone". Just inventing a new minor buff just so it hasn't existed before so it feels somewhat special doesn't really make the cut either.

Is it overpowered? No. Any unique buff that can only be provided by one class only would be overpowered then. I won't change my mind in liking this change as it is for now since it's a small step into the direction we wanted. You can't always have it all at once so I'm glad it got acknowledged to some point for now. I mean jeez nothing is set in stone and we will have more changes in the future to the actual result people want for sure.
(Speaking from a Warden healer pov :>)

The difference is that any other class doesn't need to worry about their role while applying it, or has to do something out of the ordinary. You slot an ability of a certain tree and use it here and there. But the warden needs to heal people every 20 secs to keep it up, so it's not really comparable.

@Tasear please correct me if I am wrong, but I think I saw a summary of a class rep meeting where ZOS said something along the lines of "we don't want a raid having to cancel because their e.g. stamdk got sick, and they couldn't find another" (when magblade stacking was adressed)
In my opinion, this is exactly the case here.

StamWhipCultist · September 2018

Good change. Will make room for warden in PvE groups, and will help magden in particular to have something good.

Most changes we saw in current PTS are related to PvE and in general are good.

Tasear · September 2018

Namarkas wrote: »

DenniMyuu wrote: »

I think it is a very nice change and small step into the right direction. Warden had Minor Toughness before but making the passive completely useless since the majority uses horn with decent uptimes anyway. It sure might seem halfhearted to "force" Wardens into groups but I guess it was the obvious reaction to "we want a unique buff for everyone". Just inventing a new minor buff just so it hasn't existed before so it feels somewhat special doesn't really make the cut either.

Is it overpowered? No. Any unique buff that can only be provided by one class only would be overpowered then. I won't change my mind in liking this change as it is for now since it's a small step into the direction we wanted. You can't always have it all at once so I'm glad it got acknowledged to some point for now. I mean jeez nothing is set in stone and we will have more changes in the future to the actual result people want for sure.
(Speaking from a Warden healer pov :>)

The difference is that any other class doesn't need to worry about their role while applying it, or has to do something out of the ordinary. You slot an ability of a certain tree and use it here and there. But the warden needs to heal people every 20 secs to keep it up, so it's not really comparable.

@Tasear please correct me if I am wrong, but I think I saw a summary of a class rep meeting where ZOS said something along the lines of "we don't want a raid having to cancel because their e.g. stamdk got sick, and they couldn't find another" (when magblade stacking was adressed)
In my opinion, this is exactly the case here.

This is correct and part of the reason I made this thread.

DenniMyuu · September 2018

Namarkas wrote: »

DenniMyuu wrote: »

I think it is a very nice change and small step into the right direction. Warden had Minor Toughness before but making the passive completely useless since the majority uses horn with decent uptimes anyway. It sure might seem halfhearted to "force" Wardens into groups but I guess it was the obvious reaction to "we want a unique buff for everyone". Just inventing a new minor buff just so it hasn't existed before so it feels somewhat special doesn't really make the cut either.

Is it overpowered? No. Any unique buff that can only be provided by one class only would be overpowered then. I won't change my mind in liking this change as it is for now since it's a small step into the direction we wanted. You can't always have it all at once so I'm glad it got acknowledged to some point for now. I mean jeez nothing is set in stone and we will have more changes in the future to the actual result people want for sure.
(Speaking from a Warden healer pov :>)

The difference is that any other class doesn't need to worry about their role while applying it, or has to do something out of the ordinary. You slot an ability of a certain tree and use it here and there. But the warden needs to heal people every 20 secs to keep it up, so it's not really comparable.

@Tasear please correct me if I am wrong, but I think I saw a summary of a class rep meeting where ZOS said something along the lines of "we don't want a raid having to cancel because their e.g. stamdk got sick, and they couldn't find another" (when magblade stacking was adressed)
In my opinion, this is exactly the case here.

I admit that your concern it being only favorable to one or maybe two roles might be right. But that's why I added the "I see this from a Warden healer POV". As a healer I like this change since it makes my healer being at least a tiny bit more than a synergy "provider" and nothing more. Nobody needs overhealing with oneshot mechanics most of the time but that's a different topic.

I don't see the problem (as a healer) since I apply something like Budding Seeds underneath the group regularly anyway. Not just for the healing but mostly for the synergy and therefore for Alkosh. When it expires it heals everyone standing in it. WIth a coordinated group I'm usually hitting most people apart from special roles maybe and even then I'm able to turn around.

Harrdarrzarr · September 2018

It is just as fair as a dragonknight giving minor brutality and a templar giving minor sorcery. Removing it from warhorn is of course an incentive for people to use a warden in whatever role, but it's not unfair

Namarkas · September 2018

DenniMyuu wrote: »

Namarkas wrote: »

DenniMyuu wrote: »

I think it is a very nice change and small step into the right direction. Warden had Minor Toughness before but making the passive completely useless since the majority uses horn with decent uptimes anyway. It sure might seem halfhearted to "force" Wardens into groups but I guess it was the obvious reaction to "we want a unique buff for everyone". Just inventing a new minor buff just so it hasn't existed before so it feels somewhat special doesn't really make the cut either.

Is it overpowered? No. Any unique buff that can only be provided by one class only would be overpowered then. I won't change my mind in liking this change as it is for now since it's a small step into the direction we wanted. You can't always have it all at once so I'm glad it got acknowledged to some point for now. I mean jeez nothing is set in stone and we will have more changes in the future to the actual result people want for sure.
(Speaking from a Warden healer pov :>)

The difference is that any other class doesn't need to worry about their role while applying it, or has to do something out of the ordinary. You slot an ability of a certain tree and use it here and there. But the warden needs to heal people every 20 secs to keep it up, so it's not really comparable.

@Tasear please correct me if I am wrong, but I think I saw a summary of a class rep meeting where ZOS said something along the lines of "we don't want a raid having to cancel because their e.g. stamdk got sick, and they couldn't find another" (when magblade stacking was adressed)
In my opinion, this is exactly the case here.

I admit that your concern it being only favorable to one or maybe two roles might be right. But that's why I added the "I see this from a Warden healer POV". As a healer I like this change since it makes my healer being at least a tiny bit more than a synergy "provider" and nothing more. Nobody needs overhealing with oneshot mechanics most of the time but that's a different topic.

I don't see the problem (as a healer) since I apply something like Budding Seeds underneath the group regularly anyway. Not just for the healing but mostly for the synergy and therefore for Alkosh. When it expires it heals everyone standing in it. WIth a coordinated group I'm usually hitting most people apart from special roles maybe and even then I'm able to turn around.

I really get it, I like the templar change too from a breton magplar point of view. Still having an instant shield with pretty much everything being spell damage, I can sit on 30k spell resistance w/o sacrifcing damage, makes my shield what harness is on live, and I could even use it on stamplar too.
Now don't misunderstand this please, this is nothing personal...

but just because the change favors me, it doesn't mean I find it a balanced idea xD

(EDIT: I do have an argonian warden I can easily enough make a healer, just to make clear I am not a salty templar who hates warden healers :P)

DenniMyuu · September 2018

Namarkas wrote: »

DenniMyuu wrote: »

Namarkas wrote: »

DenniMyuu wrote: »

I think it is a very nice change and small step into the right direction. Warden had Minor Toughness before but making the passive completely useless since the majority uses horn with decent uptimes anyway. It sure might seem halfhearted to "force" Wardens into groups but I guess it was the obvious reaction to "we want a unique buff for everyone". Just inventing a new minor buff just so it hasn't existed before so it feels somewhat special doesn't really make the cut either.

Is it overpowered? No. Any unique buff that can only be provided by one class only would be overpowered then. I won't change my mind in liking this change as it is for now since it's a small step into the direction we wanted. You can't always have it all at once so I'm glad it got acknowledged to some point for now. I mean jeez nothing is set in stone and we will have more changes in the future to the actual result people want for sure.
(Speaking from a Warden healer pov :>)

The difference is that any other class doesn't need to worry about their role while applying it, or has to do something out of the ordinary. You slot an ability of a certain tree and use it here and there. But the warden needs to heal people every 20 secs to keep it up, so it's not really comparable.

@Tasear please correct me if I am wrong, but I think I saw a summary of a class rep meeting where ZOS said something along the lines of "we don't want a raid having to cancel because their e.g. stamdk got sick, and they couldn't find another" (when magblade stacking was adressed)
In my opinion, this is exactly the case here.

I admit that your concern it being only favorable to one or maybe two roles might be right. But that's why I added the "I see this from a Warden healer POV". As a healer I like this change since it makes my healer being at least a tiny bit more than a synergy "provider" and nothing more. Nobody needs overhealing with oneshot mechanics most of the time but that's a different topic.

I don't see the problem (as a healer) since I apply something like Budding Seeds underneath the group regularly anyway. Not just for the healing but mostly for the synergy and therefore for Alkosh. When it expires it heals everyone standing in it. WIth a coordinated group I'm usually hitting most people apart from special roles maybe and even then I'm able to turn around.

I really get it, I like the templar change too from a breton magplar point of view. Still having an instant shield with pretty much everything being spell damage, I can sit on 30k spell resistance w/o sacrifcing damage, makes my shield what harness is on live, and I could even use it on stamplar too.
Now don't misunderstand this please, this is nothing personal...

but just because the change favors me, it doesn't mean I find it a balanced idea xD

I can't and I won't speak from a point of view I don't have a clue about tho. :eyes: I neither play Warden as a tank nor a DD. Yet it still allows me to share my opinion on a change that does affect the role I play. (: After all I did acknowledge that it might not work out for the DD aspect of a Warden but that's all I can do. :P

Namarkas · September 2018

Harrdarrzarr wrote: »

It is just as fair as a dragonknight giving minor brutality and a templar giving minor sorcery. Removing it from warhorn is of course an incentive for people to use a warden in whatever role, but it's not unfair

but a dk or a templar can still roleplay a fire atronach a.k.a. top dps and still provide this buff to the group.
Our beloved beardens (don't kill them because they are not as cute anymore thx to patch notes) would need to go out of their ways to do it.
it can be very little out of way (Valariel in AA, one vigor/mushrooms in 20 secs, k)
or very, very much (AS, you either are a pro group with coordinated stacking, or need to run/aim around quite a lot)

Now if the lifesteal from vines would count, you could at least get around the issue, still forcing a specific skill is bad design.

Namarkas · September 2018

The only real thing I can imagine for a dd to apply this would be the lotus flower if you are good at weaving. But I really don't know how exactly the targeting of this skill behaves. It would require a real raid on PTS to see if you can get at least decent uptimes (and in my opinion, a health increase buff's only decent uptime is 100%, in PVE at least, but that is a bit harsh I know).
Also, even more focus on weaving is also a bad idea in my opinion

Turelus · September 2018

I think that Warden does need something, I am not keen that in order to do it they took it away from a base game ability.

Forcing players to include a class (or even buy one) to get a buff isn't the right way to make a class desirable. We've stated what the Warden's issue are in PvE many times and those should probably be the areas being addressed.

Nightingale707 · September 2018

Could someone who is on the PTS test, if blood altar procs the Maturation passive and through it minor toughness?

I still think it is bad to tie it to healing done, but having blood altar proc it would mean either offtanks or healers can provide it.. (as long as we have non DK mag DDs DK maintanks will still be preferred over wardens)

All in all I would like classes to bring unique advantages to group play, without being "required" to fill a certain role to do so.

Namarkas · September 2018

Nightingale707 wrote: »

Could someone who is on the PTS test, if blood altar procs the Maturation passive and through it minor toughness?

I still think it is bad to tie it to healing done, but having blood altar proc it would mean either offtanks or healers can provide it.. (as long as we have non DK mag DDs DK maintanks will still be preferred over wardens)

All in all I would like classes to bring unique advantages to group play, without being "required" to fill a certain role to do so.

Blood Altar provides the same thing as Leeching vines, which wardens actually have in their toolkit: Minor Lifesteal.
I tested it with a friend and leeching Vines, and the Lifesteal did not count to proc toughness. My guess is it is regarded a debuff you apply, but said debuff causes an attacker to self heal. It is not your heal, technically.

So while I haven't tested blood altar, I am pretty sure that if the warden-intern lifesteal doesn't count, neither will the Altar.

EDIT: Something went wrong at the test, Lifesteal DOES count. My apologies.

Nightingale707 · September 2018

That is a pity, since a Lifesteal would be the best way to make sure, all 12 People in a Raid get the minor toughness. All other options of "healing" a group have the risk of targeting the same 5 people over and over.

Apart from that: since Lifesteal is able to proc Spellpower Cure and Troll King it should also proc other effects that are tied to "healing an ally" @Tasear maybe this might be worth looking into

Silver_Strider · September 2018

It's a meh change.
They murdered NB and Sorc Healers this patch and just further enforced Templar/Warden Healers only with this change.

So much for class diversity.

darkstar2084 · September 2018

no like, seems to go against the ethos of play as you want.

idk · September 2018

It runs counter to what Zos has been doing the past couple years. Zos has been homogenizing many aspects of the game. This has mostly occurred with the buff system. In that they have worked to make sure buffs and other aspects of the game have been available to all in some fashion.

While it is not a buff, this has most clearly occurred with Shards/Orbs when they were made to provide the same benefit to the point that grabbing a synergy for one locked you out of the synergy for the other.

So yes, this change does not make sense. Then again Zoslogic is not making any sense this PTS cycle.

This has to frustrate the class experts since I expect this is not a change you guys/gals suggested or even discussed. Makes me wonder if the class expert system is little more than window dressing. Yes, I am sure they have had influence on something, just does not seem so this update.

Sparr0w · September 2018

In my eyes a warden tank would be ideal running altar (forced similar to DK's flames), that or a warden healer since dd's wont really be healing the group every 20 seconds to apply this buff without having to think about it. Granted stam dd's could vigor other stam & the tanks, but mag dd's wouldn't get the buff that way.

Lorem123 · September 2018

This is an extremely poorly thought out change from the 4-man content perspective. Now the buff in 4-man content is largely going to be absent as there simply isn't room to bring a warden (which isn't the best choice for any of the 3 roles).

Weps · September 2018

I'm more worried about when we're gonna get a Major Toughness update

keevil111 · September 2018

It won't mean a warden will be a requirement, but it is exactly what we were hoping for. A step in the right direction, though a small one. It does suck about warhorn but wardens needed something unique.

Watch out people, We #2 tank and #2 healer! If they buff magden dps, there's gonna be more wardens than you can shake a stick at!