Do you support adding a cast time change for damage shields?

TheYKcid · September 2018

No, There are better ways of balancing them.

It's an absolute travesty and has conclusively proved that the developers don't have the slightest clue about how their game works.

It's also funny looking through the list of "yes" voters, who have unwittingly outed themselves as equally clueless and biased. ironically similar to how Sload advocates just one patch ago completely destroyed their chances of being taken seriously ever again.

Isildurrr · September 2018

No, There are better ways of balancing them.

Cast time to shield. The genius that thought of this troll. 10/10

craftycarper73 · September 2018

No, There are better ways of balancing them.

I voted no, even though i run a stamblade bow build in pvp, this is way to much for not just sorcs but for all LA magicka classes.

On the pve side of it VMA anyone

MipMip · September 2018

No, There are better ways of balancing them.

I hope ZOS looks at the results of this vote.

So very disappointed. And I have not complained before, I have always accepted that it is challenging to balance a game with different classes and many types of gear. But this change leaves me totally speechless! It's like removing Sorc from PvP.

Dymence · September 2018

No, There are better ways of balancing them.

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

haelene wrote: »

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

haelene wrote: »

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

We'll this one is easy to tell who's not a sorc / is a nightblade / came to skew the poll / is trollin. Look for the reds

Easy to tell? Which do you think is which?

I can see how this will benefit every class, especially certain builds of sorcerers and templars and nightblades.
I haven't played enough of dragonknights or wardens or build planned much for them to see how it benefits them as much as the others, but it definitely benefits them all in general very well.

I'm a magden main who primarily PvE's. Please tell me how this benefits me in any way? I'm not being snarky here. I'm serious. How in the world can delaying my safety against one shots with minimal to no tells benefit me?

Block one-shots. Seriously, all resistance applies before shields with this change and I never used shields against those before anyway.
Even a light armor user can survive one-shots if they just learn to block, or even dodge, which you don't have to do often enough to bother with any stamina stats.

Also, the shields last longer and PVE enemies are predictable in patterns enough that you should have the shield up before the one-shot is animating so you don't need to "emergency shield!" like a completely unprepared noob.

Not all bosses have tells, and some of them are super short. Plus you're ignoring how mag builds don't have enough stamina to consistently roll dodge and block like that in a longer fight.

If the tells are too short to block then they're too short to cast a damage shield either.

Also, I never roll anyway. I play magicka in melee range and just step out of cones. If a boss has a huge blast I can't just walk out of then I block or stay out of melee range. I just play melee range to keep them in my ground AoE since running around makes that useless.
Block is cheap enough to block often and keeps you alive, especially with block cost reduction champion points.

If you don't block then you need to learn to do so. If you don't, you will be just like the noobs dying to Tidewrack's AoE splash in Summerset at geysers when he is very easily soloable.

Your extreme inexperience is oozing out with comments like this.

There are more than enough places in the game where there is unavoidable damage with DoT components that will simply kill you if you cannot shield.

Jaimeh · September 2018

No, There are better ways of balancing them.

Unequivocally, emphatically: no. It's an even more difficult change to fathom with the introduction of a new Arena...

visionality · September 2018

No, There are better ways of balancing them.

lol ... Time to turn my stamblade into a pure bow build and scattershot everybody who is trying to cast a shield in 28 meters distance of a keep wall. This nerf to shields is utterly ridiculous.

WuffyCerulei · September 2018

No, There are better ways of balancing them.

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

haelene wrote: »

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

haelene wrote: »

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

We'll this one is easy to tell who's not a sorc / is a nightblade / came to skew the poll / is trollin. Look for the reds

Easy to tell? Which do you think is which?

I can see how this will benefit every class, especially certain builds of sorcerers and templars and nightblades.
I haven't played enough of dragonknights or wardens or build planned much for them to see how it benefits them as much as the others, but it definitely benefits them all in general very well.

I'm a magden main who primarily PvE's. Please tell me how this benefits me in any way? I'm not being snarky here. I'm serious. How in the world can delaying my safety against one shots with minimal to no tells benefit me?

Block one-shots. Seriously, all resistance applies before shields with this change and I never used shields against those before anyway.
Even a light armor user can survive one-shots if they just learn to block, or even dodge, which you don't have to do often enough to bother with any stamina stats.

Also, the shields last longer and PVE enemies are predictable in patterns enough that you should have the shield up before the one-shot is animating so you don't need to "emergency shield!" like a completely unprepared noob.

Not all bosses have tells, and some of them are super short. Plus you're ignoring how mag builds don't have enough stamina to consistently roll dodge and block like that in a longer fight.

If the tells are too short to block then they're too short to cast a damage shield either.

Also, I never roll anyway. I play magicka in melee range and just step out of cones. If a boss has a huge blast I can't just walk out of then I block or stay out of melee range. I just play melee range to keep them in my ground AoE since running around makes that useless.
Block is cheap enough to block often and keeps you alive, especially with block cost reduction champion points.

If you don't block then you need to learn to do so. If you don't, you will be just like the noobs dying to Tidewrack's AoE splash in Summerset at geysers when he is very easily soloable.

Try doing vet trials with that sort of thinking. You'd die. A lot.

MehVahdJukaar · September 2018

No, There are better ways of balancing them.

Dks have got insta cast wings, nbs have got instacast invisibility, healers have got insta cast burst healing and sorcs should have their insta cast shield back. Don't know what wardens have though

Aznox · September 2018

No, There are better ways of balancing them.

Kadoin wrote: »

Aznox wrote: »

I think people are over-reacting a lot regarding the balance consequences of this change.
- Cannot be interrupted while CC immune (look at me spamming Dark Deal on live)
- Resistances + Crit resist has the potential to vastly overweight the introduction of crit to shield

Basically this just allows opponent to save their CC/interrupt for Shield cast, giving them a 4sec window to burst you, making for a more interesting fight than just overcoming your magicka sustain.

However i can understand players not liking the introduction of cast time abilities in core toolkit, from a gameplay perspective.

Can I interrupt someone spamming absorb magic or defensive posture? Can I interrupt blazing shield users? Can I interrupt igneous shield users? Bone shield? Can I stop proc sets from putting damage shields on constantly?

Do you see the problem now? No consistency to the change. If the idea is that shields be more proactive defenses, why would they ignore all of them but two? Why would they leave armor sets with laughable conditions to proc untouched? Why leave the BEST shield absorb magic alone when its basically harness on steroids when facing a mag user or if you are an extreme healing/tank build? Makes little to no sense, except to kill light armor.

Adding cost reduction to light armor is also a joke. A better change would be additional "1 sec" roll immunity and/or break free considering light armor defenses are a joke without shield AND most light armor builds can barely roll and break free now and won't be doing it much more with the cost reduction unless they cut heavily into their damage. Then light armor users may not have to worry about shield changes at all and can play more proactively and reactively like the dev team probably envisions. Without it, it's simply a nerf.

I fully agree on the inconsistency part.

Mystrius_Archaion · September 2018

Yes, damage shields should have a cast time.

Dymence wrote: »

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

haelene wrote: »

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

haelene wrote: »

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

We'll this one is easy to tell who's not a sorc / is a nightblade / came to skew the poll / is trollin. Look for the reds

Easy to tell? Which do you think is which?

I can see how this will benefit every class, especially certain builds of sorcerers and templars and nightblades.
I haven't played enough of dragonknights or wardens or build planned much for them to see how it benefits them as much as the others, but it definitely benefits them all in general very well.

I'm a magden main who primarily PvE's. Please tell me how this benefits me in any way? I'm not being snarky here. I'm serious. How in the world can delaying my safety against one shots with minimal to no tells benefit me?

Block one-shots. Seriously, all resistance applies before shields with this change and I never used shields against those before anyway.
Even a light armor user can survive one-shots if they just learn to block, or even dodge, which you don't have to do often enough to bother with any stamina stats.

Also, the shields last longer and PVE enemies are predictable in patterns enough that you should have the shield up before the one-shot is animating so you don't need to "emergency shield!" like a completely unprepared noob.

Not all bosses have tells, and some of them are super short. Plus you're ignoring how mag builds don't have enough stamina to consistently roll dodge and block like that in a longer fight.

If the tells are too short to block then they're too short to cast a damage shield either.

Also, I never roll anyway. I play magicka in melee range and just step out of cones. If a boss has a huge blast I can't just walk out of then I block or stay out of melee range. I just play melee range to keep them in my ground AoE since running around makes that useless.
Block is cheap enough to block often and keeps you alive, especially with block cost reduction champion points.

If you don't block then you need to learn to do so. If you don't, you will be just like the noobs dying to Tidewrack's AoE splash in Summerset at geysers when he is very easily soloable.

Your extreme inexperience is oozing out with comments like this.

There are more than enough places in the game where there is unavoidable damage with DoT components that will simply kill you if you cannot shield.

Then try a class without a class shield and call me inexperienced after that.
I can tank really well on a nightblade without a class shield and in heavy armor so I don't have access to Annulment.

DoTs can be overpowered with resistances and healing.

The only thing shields may be potentially necessary for are the big one-sots that the developers telegraph to make us block or dodge which is available to everyone without needing a shield.
A shield just makes it easier because you have more health after.

Guess what?
I soloed Shada's Tear, a group dungeon, on my badly geared templar back before Morrowind using mostly dropped gear sets half blue and very few purple and the blacksmith boss, with the big one-shot, did not kill me because I blocked it as there is no way to avoid that full room AoE. I had, with food, only 24k health.
I brute-forced that fight because I couldn't find a strategy that avoided that and didn't figure out what I was supposed to do just in the fight to survive without just eating the hit in block.
I didn't need a shield for the one-shot.

I've since moved on to my nightblade hybrid/tank and can tank a hell of a lot better than my templar so the one-shots are even easier.

You can't claim a shield is necessary for one-shots and then for DoTs also. It's one or the other, especially since there are many ways to deal with DoTs because they give you more time. You could even cleanse them.

LadyNalcarya · September 2018

No, There are better ways of balancing them.

acw37162 wrote: »

Two main reasons here.

While PVP may be different, I just watched Alcast clear the new 4 man trial on vet and he forgot to re-up his food buff on the last half of the last fight, so there might be small overreaction on the PVE implications. (Caveat being if they have the difficulty turned down to start the testing cycle)

Two and this is the most important for the I am un-subbing, shelfing my sorc raging reddit forums echo chamber crowd - if you think this change is hard to stomach you really are going to loose you collective internet s&^t with whatever they try next.

Well, then vCR+3 and vAS+2 are actually super easy because they look easy when you watch Hodor vids... Top 1% of playerbase is not representative and you cant balance the game around them.
Same with pvpers... Surely there are very good 1vX players, but the majority of players just cant 1vX even if their char's stats and gear are pretty much identical.

Mystrius_Archaion · September 2018

Yes, damage shields should have a cast time.

WuffyCerulei wrote: »

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

haelene wrote: »

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

haelene wrote: »

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

We'll this one is easy to tell who's not a sorc / is a nightblade / came to skew the poll / is trollin. Look for the reds

Easy to tell? Which do you think is which?

I can see how this will benefit every class, especially certain builds of sorcerers and templars and nightblades.
I haven't played enough of dragonknights or wardens or build planned much for them to see how it benefits them as much as the others, but it definitely benefits them all in general very well.

I'm a magden main who primarily PvE's. Please tell me how this benefits me in any way? I'm not being snarky here. I'm serious. How in the world can delaying my safety against one shots with minimal to no tells benefit me?

Block one-shots. Seriously, all resistance applies before shields with this change and I never used shields against those before anyway.
Even a light armor user can survive one-shots if they just learn to block, or even dodge, which you don't have to do often enough to bother with any stamina stats.

Also, the shields last longer and PVE enemies are predictable in patterns enough that you should have the shield up before the one-shot is animating so you don't need to "emergency shield!" like a completely unprepared noob.

Not all bosses have tells, and some of them are super short. Plus you're ignoring how mag builds don't have enough stamina to consistently roll dodge and block like that in a longer fight.

If the tells are too short to block then they're too short to cast a damage shield either.

Also, I never roll anyway. I play magicka in melee range and just step out of cones. If a boss has a huge blast I can't just walk out of then I block or stay out of melee range. I just play melee range to keep them in my ground AoE since running around makes that useless.
Block is cheap enough to block often and keeps you alive, especially with block cost reduction champion points.

If you don't block then you need to learn to do so. If you don't, you will be just like the noobs dying to Tidewrack's AoE splash in Summerset at geysers when he is very easily soloable.

Try doing vet trials with that sort of thinking. You'd die. A lot.

I'm not the only nightblade tank out there and each and every one of us doesn't have a class shield.

The developers intend for even nightblades to be able to tank all content, so obviously shields aren't necessary if you are smart about how you build, or even lucky.

You people need to learn to play if one skill changed, that isn't mandatory or it wouldn't be necessary to slot it and would always be added onto block like the psijic passive shield(oh look! now you don't need a shield skill), can just destroy your ability to complete content.

You're so weak that a cast time on a shield completely kills you?!
Wow! You suck!

Mystrius_Archaion · September 2018

Yes, damage shields should have a cast time.

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

acw37162 wrote: »

Two main reasons here.

While PVP may be different, I just watched Alcast clear the new 4 man trial on vet and he forgot to re-up his food buff on the last half of the last fight, so there might be small overreaction on the PVE implications. (Caveat being if they have the difficulty turned down to start the testing cycle)

Two and this is the most important for the I am un-subbing, shelfing my sorc raging reddit forums echo chamber crowd - if you think this change is hard to stomach you really are going to loose you collective internet s&^t with whatever they try next.

Well, then vCR+3 and vAS+2 are actually super easy because they look easy when you watch Hodor vids... Top 1% of playerbase is not representative and you cant balance the game around them.
Same with pvpers... Surely there are very good 1vX players, but the majority of players just cant 1vX even if their char's stats and gear are pretty much identical.

Yet they do balance around them, at least with a little bit more on top just to make sure it is very challenging but allows people a little less "no-lifer" to complete.

Games have done this forever. They balance to let everyone into content even if it is difficult for them. No one thing is required, especially when it can't be up 100% of the time stupidly easy.

Hell, potions in this game are just like "inspirations" were in City of Heroes. They are very short term buffs that are good but not even necessary for content if you are good enough. I remember soloing some of the hardest content in City of Heroes without those temporary buffs just because I built for it.
I remember having horrible 1000ms ping in World of Warcraft and still playing well against elite mobs and dungeon bosses as if I didn't have lag because the ping was so consistent and the game designed well enough that I could just time my skill activations to compensate for the global cooldown that they all fired perfectly as if I had no lag and I stil lwon the fight.

I regularly duo and even solo normal dungeons on ESO without potions and without food, because I forget the food often in there as it isn't even necessary.
I soloed the Ash Titan and his adds after my DPS glass cannon friend died at the start of the fight just by running around, using Dark Shades and Siphoning Attacks and running circles spamming light attacks. No shield, no heals besides Siphoning Attacks and no other group member help. It took forever but it was done on my first try EVER.

If you think shields are required for any fight then you're a horrible player who hasn't learned every tool available to you yet.

Turelus · September 2018

No, There are better ways of balancing them.

I think there are better ways, but I also want to see how bad it is in play first.
If it does turn out to be as bad as predicted and people give it fair chance and testing then I would support another pass on the idea. I just worry some will state how bad it is with testing because they went into it looking for it to be bad.

LadyNalcarya · September 2018

No, There are better ways of balancing them.

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

acw37162 wrote: »

Two main reasons here.

While PVP may be different, I just watched Alcast clear the new 4 man trial on vet and he forgot to re-up his food buff on the last half of the last fight, so there might be small overreaction on the PVE implications. (Caveat being if they have the difficulty turned down to start the testing cycle)

Two and this is the most important for the I am un-subbing, shelfing my sorc raging reddit forums echo chamber crowd - if you think this change is hard to stomach you really are going to loose you collective internet s&^t with whatever they try next.

Well, then vCR+3 and vAS+2 are actually super easy because they look easy when you watch Hodor vids... Top 1% of playerbase is not representative and you cant balance the game around them.
Same with pvpers... Surely there are very good 1vX players, but the majority of players just cant 1vX even if their char's stats and gear are pretty much identical.

Yet they do balance around them, at least with a little bit more on top just to make sure it is very challenging but allows people a little less "no-lifer" to complete.

Games have done this forever. They balance to let everyone into content even if it is difficult for them. No one thing is required, especially when it can't be up 100% of the time stupidly easy.

Hell, potions in this game are just like "inspirations" were in City of Heroes. They are very short term buffs that are good but not even necessary for content if you are good enough. I remember soloing some of the hardest content in City of Heroes without those temporary buffs just because I built for it.
I remember having horrible 1000ms ping in World of Warcraft and still playing well against elite mobs and dungeon bosses as if I didn't have lag because the ping was so consistent and the game designed well enough that I could just time my skill activations to compensate for the global cooldown that they all fired perfectly as if I had no lag and I stil lwon the fight.

I regularly duo and even solo normal dungeons on ESO without potions and without food, because I forget the food often in there as it isn't even necessary.
I soloed the Ash Titan and his adds after my DPS glass cannon friend died at the start of the fight just by running around, using Dark Shades and Siphoning Attacks and running circles spamming light attacks. No shield, no heals besides Siphoning Attacks and no other group member help. It took forever but it was done on my first try EVER.

If you think shields are required for any fight then you're a horrible player who hasn't learned every tool available to you yet.

Normal dungeons = easy mode, pretty much. You can clear them just by spamming light attacks, they're specifically designed for people who like easy content.
Try vet content, then we will see how far you'll get without food and shields. Preferably vet dlc, because vanilla vet content was designed for chars with no champion points.

Dymence · September 2018

No, There are better ways of balancing them.

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

haelene wrote: »

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

haelene wrote: »

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

We'll this one is easy to tell who's not a sorc / is a nightblade / came to skew the poll / is trollin. Look for the reds

Easy to tell? Which do you think is which?

I can see how this will benefit every class, especially certain builds of sorcerers and templars and nightblades.
I haven't played enough of dragonknights or wardens or build planned much for them to see how it benefits them as much as the others, but it definitely benefits them all in general very well.

I'm a magden main who primarily PvE's. Please tell me how this benefits me in any way? I'm not being snarky here. I'm serious. How in the world can delaying my safety against one shots with minimal to no tells benefit me?

Block one-shots. Seriously, all resistance applies before shields with this change and I never used shields against those before anyway.
Even a light armor user can survive one-shots if they just learn to block, or even dodge, which you don't have to do often enough to bother with any stamina stats.

Also, the shields last longer and PVE enemies are predictable in patterns enough that you should have the shield up before the one-shot is animating so you don't need to "emergency shield!" like a completely unprepared noob.

Not all bosses have tells, and some of them are super short. Plus you're ignoring how mag builds don't have enough stamina to consistently roll dodge and block like that in a longer fight.

If the tells are too short to block then they're too short to cast a damage shield either.

Also, I never roll anyway. I play magicka in melee range and just step out of cones. If a boss has a huge blast I can't just walk out of then I block or stay out of melee range. I just play melee range to keep them in my ground AoE since running around makes that useless.
Block is cheap enough to block often and keeps you alive, especially with block cost reduction champion points.

If you don't block then you need to learn to do so. If you don't, you will be just like the noobs dying to Tidewrack's AoE splash in Summerset at geysers when he is very easily soloable.

Your extreme inexperience is oozing out with comments like this.

There are more than enough places in the game where there is unavoidable damage with DoT components that will simply kill you if you cannot shield.

Then try a class without a class shield and call me inexperienced after that.
I can tank really well on a nightblade without a class shield and in heavy armor so I don't have access to Annulment.

DoTs can be overpowered with resistances and healing.

The only thing shields may be potentially necessary for are the big one-sots that the developers telegraph to make us block or dodge which is available to everyone without needing a shield.
A shield just makes it easier because you have more health after.

Guess what?
I soloed Shada's Tear, a group dungeon, on my badly geared templar back before Morrowind using mostly dropped gear sets half blue and very few purple and the blacksmith boss, with the big one-shot, did not kill me because I blocked it as there is no way to avoid that full room AoE. I had, with food, only 24k health.
I brute-forced that fight because I couldn't find a strategy that avoided that and didn't figure out what I was supposed to do just in the fight to survive without just eating the hit in block.
I didn't need a shield for the one-shot.

I've since moved on to my nightblade hybrid/tank and can tank a hell of a lot better than my templar so the one-shots are even easier.

You can't claim a shield is necessary for one-shots and then for DoTs also. It's one or the other, especially since there are many ways to deal with DoTs because they give you more time. You could even cleanse them.

Are you kidding me? I really can't tell if you're trolling or not. You don't need shields as a tank. Tanking anything is stupidly easy. And who the hell cares about Shada's Tear? I solo'd that *** when it came out on craglorn release in 2014. You know, back when it was actually hard?

Maybe go into some actual difficult content, like vet trials before you continue spouting nonsense? Not that I think you'll have much luck getting into groups with your roleplayer builds.

Aznox · September 2018

No, There are better ways of balancing them.

Turelus wrote: »

I think there are better ways, but I also want to see how bad it is in play first.
If it does turn out to be as bad as predicted and people give it fair chance and testing then I would support another pass on the idea. I just worry some will state how bad it is with testing because they went into it looking for it to be bad.

Couldn't have said it better.

WuffyCerulei · September 2018

No, There are better ways of balancing them.

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

WuffyCerulei wrote: »

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

haelene wrote: »

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

haelene wrote: »

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

We'll this one is easy to tell who's not a sorc / is a nightblade / came to skew the poll / is trollin. Look for the reds

Easy to tell? Which do you think is which?

I can see how this will benefit every class, especially certain builds of sorcerers and templars and nightblades.
I haven't played enough of dragonknights or wardens or build planned much for them to see how it benefits them as much as the others, but it definitely benefits them all in general very well.

I'm a magden main who primarily PvE's. Please tell me how this benefits me in any way? I'm not being snarky here. I'm serious. How in the world can delaying my safety against one shots with minimal to no tells benefit me?

Block one-shots. Seriously, all resistance applies before shields with this change and I never used shields against those before anyway.
Even a light armor user can survive one-shots if they just learn to block, or even dodge, which you don't have to do often enough to bother with any stamina stats.

Also, the shields last longer and PVE enemies are predictable in patterns enough that you should have the shield up before the one-shot is animating so you don't need to "emergency shield!" like a completely unprepared noob.

Not all bosses have tells, and some of them are super short. Plus you're ignoring how mag builds don't have enough stamina to consistently roll dodge and block like that in a longer fight.

If the tells are too short to block then they're too short to cast a damage shield either.

Also, I never roll anyway. I play magicka in melee range and just step out of cones. If a boss has a huge blast I can't just walk out of then I block or stay out of melee range. I just play melee range to keep them in my ground AoE since running around makes that useless.
Block is cheap enough to block often and keeps you alive, especially with block cost reduction champion points.

If you don't block then you need to learn to do so. If you don't, you will be just like the noobs dying to Tidewrack's AoE splash in Summerset at geysers when he is very easily soloable.

Try doing vet trials with that sort of thinking. You'd die. A lot.

I'm not the only nightblade tank out there and each and every one of us doesn't have a class shield.

The developers intend for even nightblades to be able to tank all content, so obviously shields aren't necessary if you are smart about how you build, or even lucky.

You people need to learn to play if one skill changed, that isn't mandatory or it wouldn't be necessary to slot it and would always be added onto block like the psijic passive shield(oh look! now you don't need a shield skill), can just destroy your ability to complete content.

You're so weak that a cast time on a shield completely kills you?!
Wow! You suck!

Dude, I'm a dps who does veteran trials and crap. Me and all the other magicka dps need our shields to stay alive. Progressing in vAS HM, and it's essentially required there. We can't always block or dodge roll with 10-11k stamina. And blocking certain mechanics will still kill people if they don't have enough hp. Saint Olms? If a magicka dps has him on them, and he smacks them, it's a 100k+ hit, even when shielded AND blocking. Only the tanks can survive that stuff. Magicka dps don't have the stamina nor the proper passives to block all the time. CP helps, but not much.

idk · September 2018

The results of the poll are rather obvious and absolutely pointless.

Not only does Zos know the forum polls are entertainment value only, but unless you have a solid solution Zos will go live with their lazy design change.

LadyNalcarya · September 2018

No, There are better ways of balancing them.

Dymence wrote: »

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

haelene wrote: »

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

haelene wrote: »

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

We'll this one is easy to tell who's not a sorc / is a nightblade / came to skew the poll / is trollin. Look for the reds

Easy to tell? Which do you think is which?

I can see how this will benefit every class, especially certain builds of sorcerers and templars and nightblades.
I haven't played enough of dragonknights or wardens or build planned much for them to see how it benefits them as much as the others, but it definitely benefits them all in general very well.

I'm a magden main who primarily PvE's. Please tell me how this benefits me in any way? I'm not being snarky here. I'm serious. How in the world can delaying my safety against one shots with minimal to no tells benefit me?

Block one-shots. Seriously, all resistance applies before shields with this change and I never used shields against those before anyway.
Even a light armor user can survive one-shots if they just learn to block, or even dodge, which you don't have to do often enough to bother with any stamina stats.

Also, the shields last longer and PVE enemies are predictable in patterns enough that you should have the shield up before the one-shot is animating so you don't need to "emergency shield!" like a completely unprepared noob.

Not all bosses have tells, and some of them are super short. Plus you're ignoring how mag builds don't have enough stamina to consistently roll dodge and block like that in a longer fight.

If the tells are too short to block then they're too short to cast a damage shield either.

Also, I never roll anyway. I play magicka in melee range and just step out of cones. If a boss has a huge blast I can't just walk out of then I block or stay out of melee range. I just play melee range to keep them in my ground AoE since running around makes that useless.
Block is cheap enough to block often and keeps you alive, especially with block cost reduction champion points.

If you don't block then you need to learn to do so. If you don't, you will be just like the noobs dying to Tidewrack's AoE splash in Summerset at geysers when he is very easily soloable.

Your extreme inexperience is oozing out with comments like this.

There are more than enough places in the game where there is unavoidable damage with DoT components that will simply kill you if you cannot shield.

Then try a class without a class shield and call me inexperienced after that.
I can tank really well on a nightblade without a class shield and in heavy armor so I don't have access to Annulment.

DoTs can be overpowered with resistances and healing.

The only thing shields may be potentially necessary for are the big one-sots that the developers telegraph to make us block or dodge which is available to everyone without needing a shield.
A shield just makes it easier because you have more health after.

Guess what?
I soloed Shada's Tear, a group dungeon, on my badly geared templar back before Morrowind using mostly dropped gear sets half blue and very few purple and the blacksmith boss, with the big one-shot, did not kill me because I blocked it as there is no way to avoid that full room AoE. I had, with food, only 24k health.
I brute-forced that fight because I couldn't find a strategy that avoided that and didn't figure out what I was supposed to do just in the fight to survive without just eating the hit in block.
I didn't need a shield for the one-shot.

I've since moved on to my nightblade hybrid/tank and can tank a hell of a lot better than my templar so the one-shots are even easier.

You can't claim a shield is necessary for one-shots and then for DoTs also. It's one or the other, especially since there are many ways to deal with DoTs because they give you more time. You could even cleanse them.

Are you kidding me? I really can't tell if you're trolling or not. You don't need shields as a tank. Tanking anything is stupidly easy. And who the hell cares about Shada's Tear? I solo'd that *** when it came out on craglorn release in 2014. You know, back when it was actually hard?

Maybe go into some actual difficult content, like vet trials before you continue spouting nonsense? Not that I think you'll have much luck getting into groups with your roleplayer builds.

This.
And Shada's isnt even a group dungeon. It never had group mechanics to begin with and Craglorn has been revamped for soloing since them.

StrawberryKitsune · September 2018

No, There are better ways of balancing them.

WuffyCerulei wrote: »

This sh*t is gonna eff up pve for everyone if it goes live.

I suspect the top endgamers will mostly be fine and find a way to adapt. The people aspiring to learn and move up to endgame and harder content will be the ones that lose out the most I suspect. Very disheartening change for those people.

John_Falstaff · September 2018

No, There are better ways of balancing them.

@Mystrius_Archaion , geez. Sorry to hear about the issues with your hands; definitely didn't mean to pound on that point.

And it's definitely an achievement to play the way you're playing, making best out of limitation. Still, that said, I don't see any contradiction to what I've said before; see, you're dividing players in "terrible" and "not terrible", and you're ready to mark players as "terrible" if they can't do vCR+3 without shields. It's probably doable, but there is that elusive point where doing it without shields isn't something that they can't do, it's something they don't want to do - precisely because it starts transitioning into a sort of masochistic experience. So you're stating that you're fighting against masochism, and at the same time, you're insisting that people who aren't masochistic enough to do vCR+3 without shields are horrible players and should try harder.

And yes, just to reiterate, top streamers will probably show, again, how to do vCR+3 with a bucket on their head and in underwear. Would you say that everyone should possess the peculiar self-punishing mindset to do the same? If they're doing it, it doesn't mean it's simple or enjoyable (more so for those a notch less skilled than them). At some point, refusing to struggle with more and more limitations stops meaning that they're horrible players. They're merely sane players.

Mystrius_Archaion · September 2018

Yes, damage shields should have a cast time.

Dymence wrote: »

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

haelene wrote: »

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

haelene wrote: »

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

We'll this one is easy to tell who's not a sorc / is a nightblade / came to skew the poll / is trollin. Look for the reds

Easy to tell? Which do you think is which?

I can see how this will benefit every class, especially certain builds of sorcerers and templars and nightblades.
I haven't played enough of dragonknights or wardens or build planned much for them to see how it benefits them as much as the others, but it definitely benefits them all in general very well.

I'm a magden main who primarily PvE's. Please tell me how this benefits me in any way? I'm not being snarky here. I'm serious. How in the world can delaying my safety against one shots with minimal to no tells benefit me?

Block one-shots. Seriously, all resistance applies before shields with this change and I never used shields against those before anyway.
Even a light armor user can survive one-shots if they just learn to block, or even dodge, which you don't have to do often enough to bother with any stamina stats.

Also, the shields last longer and PVE enemies are predictable in patterns enough that you should have the shield up before the one-shot is animating so you don't need to "emergency shield!" like a completely unprepared noob.

Not all bosses have tells, and some of them are super short. Plus you're ignoring how mag builds don't have enough stamina to consistently roll dodge and block like that in a longer fight.

If the tells are too short to block then they're too short to cast a damage shield either.

Also, I never roll anyway. I play magicka in melee range and just step out of cones. If a boss has a huge blast I can't just walk out of then I block or stay out of melee range. I just play melee range to keep them in my ground AoE since running around makes that useless.
Block is cheap enough to block often and keeps you alive, especially with block cost reduction champion points.

If you don't block then you need to learn to do so. If you don't, you will be just like the noobs dying to Tidewrack's AoE splash in Summerset at geysers when he is very easily soloable.

Your extreme inexperience is oozing out with comments like this.

There are more than enough places in the game where there is unavoidable damage with DoT components that will simply kill you if you cannot shield.

Then try a class without a class shield and call me inexperienced after that.
I can tank really well on a nightblade without a class shield and in heavy armor so I don't have access to Annulment.

DoTs can be overpowered with resistances and healing.

The only thing shields may be potentially necessary for are the big one-sots that the developers telegraph to make us block or dodge which is available to everyone without needing a shield.
A shield just makes it easier because you have more health after.

Guess what?
I soloed Shada's Tear, a group dungeon, on my badly geared templar back before Morrowind using mostly dropped gear sets half blue and very few purple and the blacksmith boss, with the big one-shot, did not kill me because I blocked it as there is no way to avoid that full room AoE. I had, with food, only 24k health.
I brute-forced that fight because I couldn't find a strategy that avoided that and didn't figure out what I was supposed to do just in the fight to survive without just eating the hit in block.
I didn't need a shield for the one-shot.

I've since moved on to my nightblade hybrid/tank and can tank a hell of a lot better than my templar so the one-shots are even easier.

You can't claim a shield is necessary for one-shots and then for DoTs also. It's one or the other, especially since there are many ways to deal with DoTs because they give you more time. You could even cleanse them.

Are you kidding me? I really can't tell if you're trolling or not. You don't need shields as a tank. Tanking anything is stupidly easy. And who the hell cares about Shada's Tear? I solo'd that *** when it came out on craglorn release in 2014. You know, back when it was actually hard?

Maybe go into some actual difficult content, like vet trials before you continue spouting nonsense? Not that I think you'll have much luck getting into groups with your roleplayer builds.

Well you don't need shields when you're not the tank because shields are defense and your job is DPS or heals f you aren't the tank. The tank is supposed to hold aggro and take most of the hits.
Maybe this a blessing in disguise for you DPS who slot damage shields. They'll see how hard content is without damage shields and nerf the content so you can just focus on DPS.

"OMG I need damage shields to DPS! They don't do any damage but I can't stay alive without them!"

So what is the goal here?
Do you actually want to be tanky-DPS or do you want to be DPS?

This is the problem with the "unholy-trinity". You get too much hybridization unless they specifically design for unique roles by nerfing and rebalancing.

Honestly, you all asked for this with all the complaints about "sorcs are overpowered" and "I can't kill that shield stacker/spammer while they can one-shot me".
You couldn't deal with that with existing tools so they redesign to give you what you want and now you can't deal with that.

Careful what you wish for; you just might get it.

DPShiro · September 2018

No, There are better ways of balancing them.

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

If you think shields are required for any fight then you're a horrible player who hasn't learned every tool available to you yet.

Please tell me how you do kittens in vMoL HM, vCR Shadowrealm without shields or self heals?
Even vHRC Starfall phase where most block and shield (can’t do that anymore)

Not really worried about top teams, we will adapt somehow, but for progression teams that haven’t cleared vAS, vCR etc

@Mystrius_Archaion

WuffyCerulei · September 2018

No, There are better ways of balancing them.

DPShiro wrote: »

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

If you think shields are required for any fight then you're a horrible player who hasn't learned every tool available to you yet.

Please tell me how you do kittens in vMoL HM, vCR Shadowrealm without shields or self heals?
Even vHRC Starfall phase where most block and shield (can’t do that anymore)

Not really worried about top teams, we will adapt somehow, but for progression teams that haven’t cleared vAS, vCR etc

I'm pretty sure that guy hasn't seen the hell that is real end-game content.

Dymence · September 2018

No, There are better ways of balancing them.

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

haelene wrote: »

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

haelene wrote: »

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

We'll this one is easy to tell who's not a sorc / is a nightblade / came to skew the poll / is trollin. Look for the reds

Easy to tell? Which do you think is which?

I can see how this will benefit every class, especially certain builds of sorcerers and templars and nightblades.
I haven't played enough of dragonknights or wardens or build planned much for them to see how it benefits them as much as the others, but it definitely benefits them all in general very well.

I'm a magden main who primarily PvE's. Please tell me how this benefits me in any way? I'm not being snarky here. I'm serious. How in the world can delaying my safety against one shots with minimal to no tells benefit me?

Block one-shots. Seriously, all resistance applies before shields with this change and I never used shields against those before anyway.
Even a light armor user can survive one-shots if they just learn to block, or even dodge, which you don't have to do often enough to bother with any stamina stats.

Also, the shields last longer and PVE enemies are predictable in patterns enough that you should have the shield up before the one-shot is animating so you don't need to "emergency shield!" like a completely unprepared noob.

Not all bosses have tells, and some of them are super short. Plus you're ignoring how mag builds don't have enough stamina to consistently roll dodge and block like that in a longer fight.

If the tells are too short to block then they're too short to cast a damage shield either.

Also, I never roll anyway. I play magicka in melee range and just step out of cones. If a boss has a huge blast I can't just walk out of then I block or stay out of melee range. I just play melee range to keep them in my ground AoE since running around makes that useless.
Block is cheap enough to block often and keeps you alive, especially with block cost reduction champion points.

If you don't block then you need to learn to do so. If you don't, you will be just like the noobs dying to Tidewrack's AoE splash in Summerset at geysers when he is very easily soloable.

Your extreme inexperience is oozing out with comments like this.

There are more than enough places in the game where there is unavoidable damage with DoT components that will simply kill you if you cannot shield.

Then try a class without a class shield and call me inexperienced after that.
I can tank really well on a nightblade without a class shield and in heavy armor so I don't have access to Annulment.

DoTs can be overpowered with resistances and healing.

The only thing shields may be potentially necessary for are the big one-sots that the developers telegraph to make us block or dodge which is available to everyone without needing a shield.
A shield just makes it easier because you have more health after.

Guess what?
I soloed Shada's Tear, a group dungeon, on my badly geared templar back before Morrowind using mostly dropped gear sets half blue and very few purple and the blacksmith boss, with the big one-shot, did not kill me because I blocked it as there is no way to avoid that full room AoE. I had, with food, only 24k health.
I brute-forced that fight because I couldn't find a strategy that avoided that and didn't figure out what I was supposed to do just in the fight to survive without just eating the hit in block.
I didn't need a shield for the one-shot.

I've since moved on to my nightblade hybrid/tank and can tank a hell of a lot better than my templar so the one-shots are even easier.

You can't claim a shield is necessary for one-shots and then for DoTs also. It's one or the other, especially since there are many ways to deal with DoTs because they give you more time. You could even cleanse them.

Are you kidding me? I really can't tell if you're trolling or not. You don't need shields as a tank. Tanking anything is stupidly easy. And who the hell cares about Shada's Tear? I solo'd that *** when it came out on craglorn release in 2014. You know, back when it was actually hard?

Maybe go into some actual difficult content, like vet trials before you continue spouting nonsense? Not that I think you'll have much luck getting into groups with your roleplayer builds.

Well you don't need shields when you're not the tank because shields are defense and your job is DPS or heals f you aren't the tank. The tank is supposed to hold aggro and take most of the hits.
Maybe this a blessing in disguise for you DPS who slot damage shields. They'll see how hard content is without damage shields and nerf the content so you can just focus on DPS.

"OMG I need damage shields to DPS! They don't do any damage but I can't stay alive without them!"

So what is the goal here?
Do you actually want to be tanky-DPS or do you want to be DPS?

This is the problem with the "unholy-trinity". You get too much hybridization unless they specifically design for unique roles by nerfing and rebalancing.

Honestly, you all asked for this with all the complaints about "sorcs are overpowered" and "I can't kill that shield stacker/spammer while they can one-shot me".
You couldn't deal with that with existing tools so they redesign to give you what you want and now you can't deal with that.

Careful what you wish for; you just might get it.

That's not how the game works though? Ever post you make makes it more and more clear that you know nothing about the actual endgame content. Raid bosses do a TON of things. And just about the only thing the tank can tank are the light and heavy attacks. There are a lot of other mechanics going on that put unavoidable damage and pressure on DDs. You don't shield, you die. Please stop commenting if you have no idea what you're talking about.

To add to that, obviously you aren't permashielding. And it's very possible to do higher DPS than you could probably achieve in your wildest dreams while still shielding. You have to shield reactively to instant unavoidable damage.

Mystrius_Archaion · September 2018

Yes, damage shields should have a cast time.

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

acw37162 wrote: »

Two main reasons here.

While PVP may be different, I just watched Alcast clear the new 4 man trial on vet and he forgot to re-up his food buff on the last half of the last fight, so there might be small overreaction on the PVE implications. (Caveat being if they have the difficulty turned down to start the testing cycle)

Two and this is the most important for the I am un-subbing, shelfing my sorc raging reddit forums echo chamber crowd - if you think this change is hard to stomach you really are going to loose you collective internet s&^t with whatever they try next.

Well, then vCR+3 and vAS+2 are actually super easy because they look easy when you watch Hodor vids... Top 1% of playerbase is not representative and you cant balance the game around them.
Same with pvpers... Surely there are very good 1vX players, but the majority of players just cant 1vX even if their char's stats and gear are pretty much identical.

Yet they do balance around them, at least with a little bit more on top just to make sure it is very challenging but allows people a little less "no-lifer" to complete.

Games have done this forever. They balance to let everyone into content even if it is difficult for them. No one thing is required, especially when it can't be up 100% of the time stupidly easy.

Hell, potions in this game are just like "inspirations" were in City of Heroes. They are very short term buffs that are good but not even necessary for content if you are good enough. I remember soloing some of the hardest content in City of Heroes without those temporary buffs just because I built for it.
I remember having horrible 1000ms ping in World of Warcraft and still playing well against elite mobs and dungeon bosses as if I didn't have lag because the ping was so consistent and the game designed well enough that I could just time my skill activations to compensate for the global cooldown that they all fired perfectly as if I had no lag and I stil lwon the fight.

I regularly duo and even solo normal dungeons on ESO without potions and without food, because I forget the food often in there as it isn't even necessary.
I soloed the Ash Titan and his adds after my DPS glass cannon friend died at the start of the fight just by running around, using Dark Shades and Siphoning Attacks and running circles spamming light attacks. No shield, no heals besides Siphoning Attacks and no other group member help. It took forever but it was done on my first try EVER.

If you think shields are required for any fight then you're a horrible player who hasn't learned every tool available to you yet.

Normal dungeons = easy mode, pretty much. You can clear them just by spamming light attacks, they're specifically designed for people who like easy content.
Try vet content, then we will see how far you'll get without food and shields. Preferably vet dlc, because vanilla vet content was designed for chars with no champion points.

I've been working on Maelstrom Arena, with no potions. It's like bar swapping for me, difficult to use potions on the D-pad of my controller and everything else is good where it is so remapping isn't an option.

I did get into an Asylum Sanctorium run the one time. I was the only DPS to survive the fight but couldn't get away due to the aggro range of the bosses being pretty much the whole top level. I did so by recognizing that you get more healing power with the same stats that buff dps, especially with a nightblade with Swallow Soul and Refreshing Path, and I actually paid attention to red stuff on the floor and what was hurting me otherwise.

But like I said before, just wait for the youtube videos from this pts or live servers after of people still having no trouble with pve or pvp with a shielding sorcerer or anything else you think is nerfed, even without any further adjustments.

I don't have to prove it is possible or "show you up" when somebody else with over 1000cp will do it for me because it's what they do for money on their streams.
You don't see them complaining a whole lot when they know they can work around it.

WuffyCerulei · September 2018

No, There are better ways of balancing them.

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

acw37162 wrote: »

Two main reasons here.

While PVP may be different, I just watched Alcast clear the new 4 man trial on vet and he forgot to re-up his food buff on the last half of the last fight, so there might be small overreaction on the PVE implications. (Caveat being if they have the difficulty turned down to start the testing cycle)

Two and this is the most important for the I am un-subbing, shelfing my sorc raging reddit forums echo chamber crowd - if you think this change is hard to stomach you really are going to loose you collective internet s&^t with whatever they try next.

Well, then vCR+3 and vAS+2 are actually super easy because they look easy when you watch Hodor vids... Top 1% of playerbase is not representative and you cant balance the game around them.
Same with pvpers... Surely there are very good 1vX players, but the majority of players just cant 1vX even if their char's stats and gear are pretty much identical.

Yet they do balance around them, at least with a little bit more on top just to make sure it is very challenging but allows people a little less "no-lifer" to complete.

Games have done this forever. They balance to let everyone into content even if it is difficult for them. No one thing is required, especially when it can't be up 100% of the time stupidly easy.

Hell, potions in this game are just like "inspirations" were in City of Heroes. They are very short term buffs that are good but not even necessary for content if you are good enough. I remember soloing some of the hardest content in City of Heroes without those temporary buffs just because I built for it.
I remember having horrible 1000ms ping in World of Warcraft and still playing well against elite mobs and dungeon bosses as if I didn't have lag because the ping was so consistent and the game designed well enough that I could just time my skill activations to compensate for the global cooldown that they all fired perfectly as if I had no lag and I stil lwon the fight.

I regularly duo and even solo normal dungeons on ESO without potions and without food, because I forget the food often in there as it isn't even necessary.
I soloed the Ash Titan and his adds after my DPS glass cannon friend died at the start of the fight just by running around, using Dark Shades and Siphoning Attacks and running circles spamming light attacks. No shield, no heals besides Siphoning Attacks and no other group member help. It took forever but it was done on my first try EVER.

If you think shields are required for any fight then you're a horrible player who hasn't learned every tool available to you yet.

Normal dungeons = easy mode, pretty much. You can clear them just by spamming light attacks, they're specifically designed for people who like easy content.
Try vet content, then we will see how far you'll get without food and shields. Preferably vet dlc, because vanilla vet content was designed for chars with no champion points.

I've been working on Maelstrom Arena, with no potions. It's like bar swapping for me, difficult to use potions on the D-pad of my controller and everything else is good where it is so remapping isn't an option.

I did get into an Asylum Sanctorium run the one time. I was the only DPS to survive the fight but couldn't get away due to the aggro range of the bosses being pretty much the whole top level. I did so by recognizing that you get more healing power with the same stats that buff dps, especially with a nightblade with Swallow Soul and Refreshing Path, and I actually paid attention to red stuff on the floor and what was hurting me otherwise.

But like I said before, just wait for the youtube videos from this pts or live servers after of people still having no trouble with pve or pvp with a shielding sorcerer or anything else you think is nerfed, even without any further adjustments.

I don't have to prove it is possible or "show you up" when somebody else with over 1000cp will do it for me because it's what they do for money on their streams.
You don't see them complaining a whole lot when they know they can work around it.

Averrod1234 · September 2018

No, There are better ways of balancing them.

I do not like the added cast time to shields.

As it is on the life servers, shields can be used proactively already to mitigate expected incoming damage. So this change will only make this more clunky as abilities with cast time in this game feel (atleast to me) weird as you have no real indication when exactly the „cast“ is over as the animation with some abilities ends before the actual cast does.

The reactive usefulness of shields however has been drastically reduced. A one second cast time also means a second where you can not block, dodge or do other things leaving the shield caster prone to further attack/damage.

While I understand that the intention is to strengthen the healer role in group scenarios, I do not believe that this change will achieve this in any meaningful way. If used proactively the shield will in most cases mitigate most/all damage anyway and if used reactively then the shield caster is prone for 1 second and has in all likelyhood already received a large amount of damage leaving the healer with a one second window of burst healing to keep the target alive. Right now the shield work also as a sort of buffer giving healers the time to heal up targets.

If ZOS truly desires to strengthen the healer role the will not be able to do so with „band aid“ changes like this which cause more issues than it solves. But would rather have to address many design choices in the core mechanics of the game (such as damage numbers done and received as well as total number of hitpoints and selfhealing) and encounter design (less one shots and more sustained damaged taken per second)

I personally hope Zenimax will rethink this change. To suggest another alternative:

Shields are instant
Shields can be critted
Shields do not benefit from resistances
Shields add X amount of critical resistance

This would weaken shields in pvp by a margin yet not affect them in PVE