Minor/Major Evasion grants every medium armor user free 25% damage reduction vs Templar

Soris · September 2018

"Minor/Major Evasion: These buffs no longer grant a passive chance to dodge. They now reduce the damage you take from area of effect attacks by 5/25%. All abilities that previously granted Minor or Major Evasion have been converted to this new effect, and the Blade Cloak ability now grants Major Evasion."

Is this for real? More than half of the templar skills are AoE specificly the bread and butter Jabs/Sweeps.
You basically give every medium armor stamina builds 100% uptime free major protection who fights my templar.
Then add that new blade cloak skill on top of this which actually gives major protection..... 55% damage mitigation vs jabs
Just lol.

Have any of you guys ever think of this issue when making this change?

John_Falstaff · September 2018

@Soris, Blade Cloak will actually give same named buff (so it won't stack with medium armor skill).

Soris · September 2018

Perfect Spectral Cloak
2: Stamina Recovery
2: Blade Cloak grants you Major Protection for 3 seconds, reducing your damage taken by 30%.

Sun7dance · September 2018

First you have to spam your blade cloak and second with the new arena dw weapons you decide for a defensive playstyle.

_Ahala_ · September 2018

This hits the Magden permafrost Deep fissure combo too... because sure Magden needed another nerf... why do i even bother

Elsterchen · September 2018

Sun7dance wrote: »

First you have to spam your blade cloak and second with the new arena dw weapons you decide for a defensive playstyle.

You don't have to "spam" an ability with a 15 s duration... and when using medium armor one probably should opt the defensive playstile ...given the changes to defensive abilities/mechanics when wearing medium.

edit: ... and yes, the buffs to damage may very easily not make up for playing defensive and everything else.

Soris · September 2018

Sun7dance wrote: »

First you have to spam your blade cloak and second with the new arena dw weapons you decide for a defensive playstyle.

True, the Arena weapons gives extra mitigation for your flavour. Together they make 55%.
But still it doesn't chances the fact that they are giving out free 25% dmg reduction against any class that have mainly aoe damage by design.

NobleX35 · September 2018

I’m glad more people are bringing this to light, because this is definitely my biggest concern with the path thus far. The changea to major evasion will have a substantial impact on our dps because jabs is our main skill and it is an aoe. Shuffle went from not providing any defense against jabs to being one of the primary counters against it.

I greatly welcome many of the sustain changes, even though Im nervous about the loss of tankiness; however, I am extremely nervous about the 25% damage nerf to jabs and dawnbreaker.

Sun7dance · September 2018

Elsterchen wrote: »

Sun7dance wrote: »

First you have to spam your blade cloak and second with the new arena dw weapons you decide for a defensive playstyle.

You don't have to "spam" an ability with a 15 s duration... and when using medium armor one probably should opt the defensive playstile ...given the changes to defensive abilities/mechanics when wearing medium.

edit: ... and yes, the buffs to damage may very easily not make up for playing defensive and everything else.

Sorry, i was writing about about the new dw arena weapons, which give you additionaly 3sec of major protection. If you want 100% uptime of less 25% aoe damage AND major protection, you have to cast blade cloak every 3sec.

And you can't play master dw any longer and that is a huge damage loss.

In the end you must decide between offensive or defensive playstyle and that's ok i think.

NyassaV · September 2018

_Ahala_ wrote: »

This hits the Magden permafrost Deep fissure combo too... because sure Magden needed another nerf... why do i even bother

Good

Nerftheforums · September 2018

Super well thought change, loving it. Finally some well due buffs to poor nbs that were struggling so much to git gud. Now no more effort is needed.

Other classes will still suffer the same issues as before (I've been using blade cloak on both stamsorc and stamplar, definetely noticeable but still not entirely sufficient), while nbs will enjoy all the benefits of cloak + aoe reduction. Plus all the other buffs they got in sustain and damage (grim focus). And this comes from a stamnb main...

ManDraKE · September 2018

You are wrong

1. A big chunk of jabs damage comes from burning light. That's not aoe, so the "25% reduction vs jabs" is not true. Also jabs dmg got a 8% dmg buff in the templar section of the patch notes.
2. Mitigation sources in this game are multiplicate, not additive. For example: 25% major evasion + 30% major protection from the new arena weapon is doesn't equals to 55% mitigation, is a lot less (and the dimisish return effects are even more noticiable the more you stack things). That being said, imo, most some of those arena weapons are going to OP af, very good chance the will get nerfed in the following PTS patches.

Most of the templar abilities are not AoE. Radiant destruction is not aoe, vampire bane's is not aoe (i'm not sure about reflecting light, but i belive is not aoe, is just a single target ability that fires several projectiles), power of the light is not aoe, dark flare is not aoe. Also keep mind that major evasion used to add mitigation, imposible to calculate, but dodging attacks could potentialy be a lot of mitigation.

TL;DR: go test things on PTS before posting about how bad the changes are.

Minno · September 2018

i like the change from a paper standpoint but only because I also feel they need to recode jabs so it has a separate direct dmg ability with the AOE component.

evoniee · September 2018

ya, it is very strong vs aoe setup like templar & warden & spin to win skill and not useful vs single target attack.

susmitds · September 2018

Blade Cloak always used to give this. But 15% only though.

John_Falstaff · September 2018

@susmitds , no, actually. Right now on live it's 25%. Just not a named buff.

Xeniph · September 2018

I was always under the impression that the " x damage to the closest target" was considered DOT damage and not aoe. I guess we have some testing to do.

Edit* I will say this though. If in fact these changes do effect jabs too harshly, then the abilities damage needs to be re-categorized or at least make the "closest target" portion of the skill direct damage.

Idinuse · September 2018

Soris wrote: »

"Minor/Major Evasion: These buffs no longer grant a passive chance to dodge. They now reduce the damage you take from area of effect attacks by 5/25%. All abilities that previously granted Minor or Major Evasion have been converted to this new effect, and the Blade Cloak ability now grants Major Evasion."

Is this for real? More than half of the templar skills are AoE specificly the bread and butter Jabs/Sweeps.
You basically give every medium armor stamina builds 100% uptime free major protection who fights my templar.
Then add that new blade cloak skill on top of this which actually gives major protection..... 55% damage mitigation vs jabs
Just lol.

Have any of you guys ever think of this issue when making this change?

Nah. They never do. All they think about is keeping NB play as über as possible. To h**l with the other fodder classes.

Silver_Strider · September 2018

Let's consider the following:

Major Evasion from Shuffle will be the norm that people will realistically use in PvP, not Blade Cloak.

Using Blade Cloak with P. Blackrose weapons means you're giving up Rally or Poison Injection from your build and sacrificing either a 5pc bonus or your monster set for Stam Regen and 3 seconds of Major Protection. That's laughable to even consider for PvP.

Finally, considering how often the current form of Major Evasion dodges well over 25% of damage from abilities, this feels like largely a non-issue.

Sun7dance · September 2018

There still is a set like lekis focus. Use it only on your bar without vigor and dawnbreaker and you can reduce a lot of aoe damage.
But i think ZOS just forgot this set and will give the same effect to it, so it would not stack with shuffle or blade cloak.

ll_Rev · September 2018

yeah they didn't think these changes through

Minno · September 2018

Sun7dance wrote: »

There still is a set like lekis focus. Use it only on your bar without vigor and dawnbreaker and you can reduce a lot of aoe damage.
But i think ZOS just forgot this set and will give the same effect to it, so it would not stack with shuffle or blade cloak.

you also trade a 5pc for extra mitigation subject to diminishing returns.

highly likely only on niche builds.

brandonv516 · September 2018

I didn't really think much into this but this might help vs. the spin-to-win meta.

Rikumaru · September 2018

This buff has always existed on blade cloak. I don't get what the issue is all of a sudden.

Soris · September 2018

Xeniph wrote: »

I was always under the impression that the " x damage to the closest target" was considered DOT damage and not aoe. I guess we have some testing to do.

Edit* I will say this though. If in fact these changes do effect jabs too harshly, then the abilities damage needs to be re-categorized or at least make the "closest target" portion of the skill direct damage.

It is buffed by lighting staves so it must be an AoE i guess.

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Let's consider the following:

Major Evasion from Shuffle will be the norm that people will realistically use in PvP, not Blade Cloak.

Using Blade Cloak with P. Blackrose weapons means you're giving up Rally or Poison Injection from your build and sacrificing either a 5pc bonus or your monster set for Stam Regen and 3 seconds of Major Protection. That's laughable to even consider for PvP.

Finally, considering how often the current form of Major Evasion dodges well over 25% of damage from abilities, this feels like largely a non-issue.

Most stamina builds use 2h/dualwield nowadays. Most medium armor users are rollerblade nbs nowadays and they usually hit like a truck. I don't see the reason why does my jab and dawnbreaker have to hit 25% less to them...

Most people often dont bother to fight when they see pirate skeleton proc on someone. Now we are giving out the same mitigation for 20 sec duration to anyone in medium vs 90% of ulties in game (which are what kills people) and half of the skills.. It is too much. Shuffle needs to be minor at least and give major to skills with lower uptime

Rikumaru wrote: »

This buff has always existed on blade cloak. I don't get what the issue is all of a sudden.

Blade Cloak wasn't widely used as shuffle and it was 15% mitigation

Joy_Division · September 2018

Good thing I don't like Sweeps.

leepalmer95 · September 2018

ManDraKE wrote: »

You are wrong

1. A big chunk of jabs damage comes from burning light. That's not aoe, so the "25% reduction vs jabs" is not true. Also jabs dmg got a 8% dmg buff in the templar section of the patch notes.
2. Mitigation sources in this game are multiplicate, not additive. For example: 25% major evasion + 30% major protection from the new arena weapon is doesn't equals to 55% mitigation, is a lot less (and the dimisish return effects are even more noticiable the more you stack things). That being said, imo, most some of those arena weapons are going to OP af, very good chance the will get nerfed in the following PTS patches.

Most of the templar abilities are not AoE. Radiant destruction is not aoe, vampire bane's is not aoe (i'm not sure about reflecting light, but i belive is not aoe, is just a single target ability that fires several projectiles), power of the light is not aoe, dark flare is not aoe. Also keep mind that major evasion used to add mitigation, imposible to calculate, but dodging attacks could potentialy be a lot of mitigation.

TL;DR: go test things on PTS before posting about how bad the changes are.

Exactly.

Rikumaru · September 2018

Soris wrote: »

Xeniph wrote: »

I was always under the impression that the " x damage to the closest target" was considered DOT damage and not aoe. I guess we have some testing to do.

Edit* I will say this though. If in fact these changes do effect jabs too harshly, then the abilities damage needs to be re-categorized or at least make the "closest target" portion of the skill direct damage.

It is buffed by lighting staves so it must be an AoE i guess.

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Let's consider the following:

Major Evasion from Shuffle will be the norm that people will realistically use in PvP, not Blade Cloak.

Using Blade Cloak with P. Blackrose weapons means you're giving up Rally or Poison Injection from your build and sacrificing either a 5pc bonus or your monster set for Stam Regen and 3 seconds of Major Protection. That's laughable to even consider for PvP.

Finally, considering how often the current form of Major Evasion dodges well over 25% of damage from abilities, this feels like largely a non-issue.

Most stamina builds use 2h/dualwield nowadays. Most medium armor users are rollerblade nbs nowadays and they usually hit like a truck. I don't see the reason why does my jab and dawnbreaker have to hit 25% less to them...

Most people often dont bother to fight when they see pirate skeleton proc on someone. Now we are giving out the same mitigation for 20 sec duration to anyone in medium vs 90% of ulties in game (which are what kills people) and half of the skills.. It is too much. Shuffle needs to be minor at least and give major to skills with lower uptime

Rikumaru wrote: »

This buff has always existed on blade cloak. I don't get what the issue is all of a sudden.

Blade Cloak wasn't widely used as shuffle and it was 15% mitigation

What do you mean widely used? Basically every stam build is running heavy, I don't see why this change would suddenly make people want to run medium especially considering the dodge roll nerf planned out for next patch.

Also blade cloak on live right now gives 25% AOE damage reduction not 15%.

As for why blade cloak isn't widely used, I'm honestly not too sure. I ran it on my heavy stamblade pre-morrowind since imo 25% AOE dmg reduction is a pretty good buff.

Soris · September 2018

ManDraKE wrote: »

You are wrong

1. A big chunk of jabs damage comes from burning light. That's not aoe, so the "25% reduction vs jabs" is not true. Also jabs dmg got a 8% dmg buff in the templar section of the patch notes.
2. Mitigation sources in this game are multiplicate, not additive. For example: 25% major evasion + 30% major protection from the new arena weapon is doesn't equals to 55% mitigation, is a lot less (and the dimisish return effects are even more noticiable the more you stack things). That being said, imo, most some of those arena weapons are going to OP af, very good chance the will get nerfed in the following PTS patches.

Most of the templar abilities are not AoE. Radiant destruction is not aoe, vampire bane's is not aoe (i'm not sure about reflecting light, but i belive is not aoe, is just a single target ability that fires several projectiles), power of the light is not aoe, dark flare is not aoe. Also keep mind that major evasion used to add mitigation, imposible to calculate, but dodging attacks could potentialy be a lot of mitigation.

TL;DR: go test things on PTS before posting about how bad the changes are.

Big chunk of jabs damage still comes from the skill itself AND the burning light. When it is possible to land all 4 jab hits, the damage is bigger than the proc's one. Check your death recap when you die, the numbers are usually 6k jabs 4k burning light.

And why are you suggesting to cutting a skils half component into half is an acceptable thing. It isn't. How about surprise attack doing less damage to anyone who use x?

Most of the templar bread and butter skills are infact aoe. Including Reflective Light. Radiant destruction is an execute only to be used in execute range. Purifying light is a single target ability yes but you fill it's dmg cap by doing sweeps, reflective and ultimate. which are now hit 25% less. Which means you need to do 25% more effort to get a fat damage at the end.

Old shuffle had 15% chance to proc dodge and only worked on projectiles. Theoritically it actually nets less damage taken over an extended time period of fighting. People have never dodged my ultimates and jabs before, because they were aoes and always guaranteed hit. The only thing that made them miss was major expedition and positioning. Hope this will clarifies things in your head.

Soris · September 2018

Rikumaru wrote: »

Soris wrote: »

Xeniph wrote: »

I was always under the impression that the " x damage to the closest target" was considered DOT damage and not aoe. I guess we have some testing to do.

Edit* I will say this though. If in fact these changes do effect jabs too harshly, then the abilities damage needs to be re-categorized or at least make the "closest target" portion of the skill direct damage.

It is buffed by lighting staves so it must be an AoE i guess.

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Let's consider the following:

Major Evasion from Shuffle will be the norm that people will realistically use in PvP, not Blade Cloak.

Using Blade Cloak with P. Blackrose weapons means you're giving up Rally or Poison Injection from your build and sacrificing either a 5pc bonus or your monster set for Stam Regen and 3 seconds of Major Protection. That's laughable to even consider for PvP.

Finally, considering how often the current form of Major Evasion dodges well over 25% of damage from abilities, this feels like largely a non-issue.

Most stamina builds use 2h/dualwield nowadays. Most medium armor users are rollerblade nbs nowadays and they usually hit like a truck. I don't see the reason why does my jab and dawnbreaker have to hit 25% less to them...

Most people often dont bother to fight when they see pirate skeleton proc on someone. Now we are giving out the same mitigation for 20 sec duration to anyone in medium vs 90% of ulties in game (which are what kills people) and half of the skills.. It is too much. Shuffle needs to be minor at least and give major to skills with lower uptime

Rikumaru wrote: »

This buff has always existed on blade cloak. I don't get what the issue is all of a sudden.

Blade Cloak wasn't widely used as shuffle and it was 15% mitigation

What do you mean widely used? Basically every stam build is running heavy, I don't see why this change would suddenly make people want to run medium especially considering the dodge roll nerf planned out for next patch.

Also blade cloak on live right now gives 25% AOE damage reduction not 15%.

As for why blade cloak isn't widely used, I'm honestly not too sure. I ran it on my heavy stamblade pre-morrowind since imo 25% AOE dmg reduction is a pretty good buff.

Oh okay thanks for clarifying i always thought it was 15%. I have never seen it used widely as other stamina utility skills due to skill slots being very limited. Some bleed/dot stamsorcs and stamplars were using it though. Like 3 out of every 10 stam chars. It wasn't big of an issue to deal with simpy because it is being rare.

ManDraKE · September 2018

Your reply doesn't make much sense imo, everything i said is true and the surprise attack thing is just whataboutism, is not really an argument. We will have to test in the PTS how the damage of templars is affected to give accurate feedback, and i'm sure that many experienced templars will do it, but i can already tell you that you are overreacting. Things are not as bad as you are thinking, is verly likely that some of the changes will make jabs better than live for PvP, specially the targeting thing.

Again, TEST first, complain later.