Issue with Defense Ticks and Idea to Improve

NobleX35 · September 2018

There has been a noticeable change in the defense tick AP gains going from Summerset to Wolfhunter, which has not received a lot of positive feedback. The lower AP gains leave many players feeling unrewarded for long well fought defenses. I believe the issue is due to the way the defense multipliers are applied.

My understanding of the current system is that a level 0 keep provides a 1x multiplier that is evenly distributed among defenders. A level 1 keep has an unknown multiplier that distributes additional AP to defenders. A level 2 keep has an unknown multiplier and provides the maximum AP to defenders. A keeps level and subsequent defense multiplier is based on the lowest level resource level. For example a keep with level 2 lumber, level 2 ore, and level 0 food is actually considered a level 0 keep.

Wolfhunter brought back keep degradation which is the primary reason for the comparatively low defense ticks that we saw in Summerset. The issue is that the enemy only needs to flip a single resource to start lowering a keeps level to 0. A keep can lose a level in as little as 5 minutes and 2 levels in as little as 10 minutes. Because of this, most defenders are only receiving the base 1x multiplier, especially in long drawn out defenses.

I would propose to modify the system some and shrink the gap between the base multiplier and the maximum multiplier so that defenders are able to be rewarded more for their efforts in long sieges, where it is typically impossible, or at least impropable, to take back the resources while defending. This will shrink the gap so that low bonuses arent so low and the high bonuses arent so high. I believe the base multiplier for defense ticks should be increased to 1.5x. I would also propose that each resource level gives a 25% increase in defense AP. So a keep with all three resource levels will increase the defense AP by 150%, whereas a keep with 2 resources at level 2 and 1 resource at level 0 will give a 100% increase in defense AP.

These numbers may seem large, but Im pretty sure this will actually provide players with less AP than what a current max level keep will provide. This system will at the very least provide more consistent AP gains for defense ticks and hopefully make defending keeps more worthwhile than they currently are. It will also help keep the devs original intent of making resources more valuable intact.

Galarthor · September 2018

Yes, seriously ZOS, I thought we finally made it past laughably small defensive ticks when you revised them recently. Why make them unrewarding again? I mean it took years of complaining before you finally addressed this issue only to to backpedal shortly after.

Why would anybody spent an hour defending a keep when they can make the same amount of AP in 10 minutes when capturing a keep?

Sacredx · September 2018

I would agree that defence AP has dropped significantly and is frankly not worth the effort. The current system heavily favours the attackers.

Increase the defence ticks to improve player participation and engagement in keep combat.

Merlin13KAGL · September 2018

The reduction in level should happen over a timeframe comparable to how long a keep stayed at the higher tier.

If a keep sat at Tier II for an extended period of time, it would be reasonable to infer that there was a build up of supplies in that time frame, taking longer for the degradation to take place.

Compare that to a keep that only sat at Tier II for a few minutes.

I'm sure there would still need to be some balancing taking place. The longer you hold a resource, even if it eventually falls, the more AP that should result.

As it stands, it sounds as if it's almost better, AP-wise, to simply give up and then retake the appropriate resource, leading to swapping in a different form.

The longer you're a pain in the enemy's ass, the more it should be worth (perhaps a time-based multiplier that adds, while the tier multiplier takes away)?

Galarthor · September 2018

I think the defensive tick AP should be independent of the level of the keep ... at least after some time.

I mean sometimes you defend a keep for 30mins to 60min against hords of enemies and are locked in in the inner keep without any chance of capturing and holding resources for a prolong period of time, especially since it makes no sense to capture them when your keeps has already been destroyed, only to get a 3k tick afterwards.

In the same timeframe you could have taken countless resources and made 10 times the AP with 1000 less lag.

In such prolong sieges the keep level will always be low. Which means the harder you have to fight for it, the less reward you get. That's so counterintuitive and counterproductive.
Just imagine a safe government bond would pay 20% interest, while a risky corportate bond paid 5%. Who would invest into the corporate bond? It's the same with the current defensive ticks.

NobleX35 · September 2018

Galarthor wrote: »

I think the defensive tick AP should be independent of the level of the keep ... at least after some time.

I mean sometimes you defend a keep for 30mins to 60min against hords of enemies and are locked in in the inner keep without any chance of capturing and holding resources for a prolong period of time, especially since it makes no sense to capture them when your keeps has already been destroyed, only to get a 3k tick afterwards.

In the same timeframe you could have taken countless resources and made 10 times the AP with 1000 less lag.

In such prolong sieges the keep level will always be low. Which means the harder you have to fight for it, the less reward you get. That's so counterintuitive and counterproductive.
Just imagine a safe government bond would pay 20% interest, while a risky corportate bond paid 5%. Who would invest into the corporate bond? It's the same with the current defensive ticks.

Thats a really good analogy. So instead of tieing the defense bonuses to the resources, what about changing it to a fixed amount of time. For example, every 10 minutes that your faction owns a keep, that keep gains a 25% defense ap bonus up to a maximum of 150%. So if your faction holds a keep for an hour, then that keep will provide the max ap bonus until it is taken by the enemy.

Apache_Kid · September 2018

Why they think that a group defending a keep is able to go out and re-take the resource in order to preserve the keep level is beyond me. It's actually a death sentence.

ErMurazor · September 2018

I loved the increased def ticks, Made ppl actually spread out and defend. The map was alive and ppl cared. Now we are back to attacking mindlessly again. Pls ZoS revert back the defense ticks, atleast buff them

Joy_Division · September 2018

I agree the new system in place has issues.

ZOS wants to encourage small groups of players to fight on resources, and while that's a noble (pun not intended

) idea, the way that Cyrodiil plays makes that unrealistic for outnumbered defenders in a keep. If the defenders are outnumbered, they need to actually defend breeches and be prepared to retreat to inner if overwhelmed. If the defenders have enough people to spare, then they might as well push out of the keep and take out the attacking force.

I think the system from last patch was too easy though; kill one NB ganker outside level 5 Drake and everyone shares a 4K tick.

jaws343 · September 2018

NobleX35 wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

I think the defensive tick AP should be independent of the level of the keep ... at least after some time.

I mean sometimes you defend a keep for 30mins to 60min against hords of enemies and are locked in in the inner keep without any chance of capturing and holding resources for a prolong period of time, especially since it makes no sense to capture them when your keeps has already been destroyed, only to get a 3k tick afterwards.

In the same timeframe you could have taken countless resources and made 10 times the AP with 1000 less lag.

In such prolong sieges the keep level will always be low. Which means the harder you have to fight for it, the less reward you get. That's so counterintuitive and counterproductive.
Just imagine a safe government bond would pay 20% interest, while a risky corportate bond paid 5%. Who would invest into the corporate bond? It's the same with the current defensive ticks.

Thats a really good analogy. So instead of tieing the defense bonuses to the resources, what about changing it to a fixed amount of time. For example, every 10 minutes that your faction owns a keep, that keep gains a 25% defense ap bonus up to a maximum of 150%. So if your faction holds a keep for an hour, then that keep will provide the max ap bonus until it is taken by the enemy.

I really like the time approach. But I would switch it to the amount of time you were defending. So if you defend a keep for 5 to 10 minutes and wipe the attackers, you get a minimal tic, but if you are defending against waves of enemies for 40+ minutes and the keep doesn't fall, you should get a much larger tic.

It should also take into account the level of the battle and what is actually happening during that timeframe. If the enemy only knocks in the front door or wall in that 40 minute defense, you get less of a tic or if you just kill them at the front door before they knock down anything, the tic is even smaller. But if you wipe them repeatedly on the flags and they keep coming but you eventually win, the tic should be larger.

BigBragg · September 2018

Defences has me out here loosing AP.

Between counter siege, Forward Camps, and repairs (if we win) I can easily spen tenfold what a D Tick now brings in. This is garbage design, and not well thought out. I get the idea of getting off the walls and fighting, to try and take people out of turtling, and love the concept. However and outright punishment for people defending isn't the answer.

twitch_zero · September 2018

Ways to improve? Simply turn it back to the way it was before Wolfhunter. It was perfect then.