In a pvp world full of resource straining mechanics do:

Minno · September 2018

Other (Explain please)

What happened was this:
- PvP community loved how the classes could sustain in nCP pre Morrowind. It ignored the power creep of CP and each class required you to build a certain way.
- pvp side of zos heard the feedback.
- problem is pve side of zos also didn't like how sustain was too easy in pve.
- Morrowind sustain nerfs happened and BGs were added with nCP only.

Now we were left with terrible build options. And races like argonian are better for sustain on classes that took the worst hits (Templar).

Only way forward is to return some sustain/power to some class kits and maybe admit CP is a terrible mistake. I really doubt both sides talked the Morrowind changes together, because what should of happened was CP sustain nerfs, ttk reviewed, and BGs made CP (along with base game).

MassiveFumes · September 2018

Yes

The damage you lose is minimal compared to the sustainability you get being an Argonian. While also gaining healing for tankiness, this allows you to invest all in damage sets.. DK/NB/Wardens shouldn't have to do any investing in sustain if the player is half-way decent.

LeifErickson · September 2018

No

usmguy1234 wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

The only thing Argonians have better than others is the off stat sustain. A player can get more mag regen out of high elf if they are sitting at somewhere around 2k regen (can't remember the exact number) but the Argonian will have better stam sustain than the high elf. But the high elf gets way more magicka and the elemental damage passive. Seems pretty balanced to me.

If Argonian got nerfed I would race change immediately.

In a pvp sense sustain is everything. If you can sustain with only potions this allows you to stack fully in to damage. The reason the other races out perform argonians in pve is because sustain isn't such an issue. That 2k regen that my altmer has doesn't mean anything when I'm getting blasted with cost poisons and getting cc'd continuously.

Cost poisons don't affect regen so I don't get what you are trying to say here.

usmguy1234 · September 2018

Other (Explain please)

LeifErickson wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

The only thing Argonians have better than others is the off stat sustain. A player can get more mag regen out of high elf if they are sitting at somewhere around 2k regen (can't remember the exact number) but the Argonian will have better stam sustain than the high elf. But the high elf gets way more magicka and the elemental damage passive. Seems pretty balanced to me.

If Argonian got nerfed I would race change immediately.

In a pvp sense sustain is everything. If you can sustain with only potions this allows you to stack fully in to damage. The reason the other races out perform argonians in pve is because sustain isn't such an issue. That 2k regen that my altmer has doesn't mean anything when I'm getting blasted with cost poisons and getting cc'd continuously.

Cost poisons don't affect regen so I don't get what you are trying to say here.

Obviously... it's after the cost poison drains your resources that I was talking about. The difference between popping a potion and everything going to almost full.... while the other classes pray they can land a few heavy attacks, etc because a potion is literally enough for a couple of skills if that. If you rely on your native regen + potion, you are screwed... So yes those class with an extra 10% regen doesn't really mean anything.

IZZEFlameLash · September 2018

No

usmguy1234 wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

The only thing Argonians have better than others is the off stat sustain. A player can get more mag regen out of high elf if they are sitting at somewhere around 2k regen (can't remember the exact number) but the Argonian will have better stam sustain than the high elf. But the high elf gets way more magicka and the elemental damage passive. Seems pretty balanced to me.

If Argonian got nerfed I would race change immediately.

In a pvp sense sustain is everything. If you can sustain with only potions this allows you to stack fully in to damage. The reason the other races out perform argonians in pve is because sustain isn't such an issue. That 2k regen that my altmer has doesn't mean anything when I'm getting blasted with cost poisons and getting cc'd continuously.

Cost poisons don't affect regen so I don't get what you are trying to say here.

Obviously... it's after the cost poison drains your resources that I was talking about. The difference between popping a potion and everything going to almost full.... while the other classes pray they can land a few heavy attacks, etc because a potion is literally enough for a couple of skills if that. If you rely on your native regen + potion, you are screwed... So yes those class with an extra 10% regen doesn't really mean anything.

You see, if an Argonian doesn't run a potion build, that is 10k of primary resource every 45 seconds (if this wasn't a tri pot) and that translates into around 400 rec per 2 seconds. And assuming that you did not build for sustain, that is 1k recovery in total which compared to an Altmer with near 1.6k miminum (only Potent Brew) to 3k (Lich proc and Potent Brew etc) isn't that much and the Argonian with no regen investment will still run out of the juice faster than the Altmer with proper build. If you build sustain on Argonian, you then lose even more damage. Argonian is not some magic race that allows you to sustain indefinitely. Burst recovery can help with sticky situation yes but it is hardly gamebreaking.

usmguy1234 · September 2018

Other (Explain please)

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

The only thing Argonians have better than others is the off stat sustain. A player can get more mag regen out of high elf if they are sitting at somewhere around 2k regen (can't remember the exact number) but the Argonian will have better stam sustain than the high elf. But the high elf gets way more magicka and the elemental damage passive. Seems pretty balanced to me.

If Argonian got nerfed I would race change immediately.

In a pvp sense sustain is everything. If you can sustain with only potions this allows you to stack fully in to damage. The reason the other races out perform argonians in pve is because sustain isn't such an issue. That 2k regen that my altmer has doesn't mean anything when I'm getting blasted with cost poisons and getting cc'd continuously.

Cost poisons don't affect regen so I don't get what you are trying to say here.

Obviously... it's after the cost poison drains your resources that I was talking about. The difference between popping a potion and everything going to almost full.... while the other classes pray they can land a few heavy attacks, etc because a potion is literally enough for a couple of skills if that. If you rely on your native regen + potion, you are screwed... So yes those class with an extra 10% regen doesn't really mean anything.

You see, if an Argonian doesn't run a potion build, that is 10k of primary resource every 45 seconds (if this wasn't a tri pot) and that translates into around 400 rec per 2 seconds. And assuming that you did not build for sustain, that is 1k recovery in total which compared to an Altmer with near 1.6k miminum (only Potent Brew) to 3k (Lich proc and Potent Brew etc) isn't that much and the Argonian with no regen investment will still run out of the juice faster than the Altmer with proper build. If you build sustain on Argonian, you then lose even more damage. Argonian is not some magic race that allows you to sustain indefinitely. Burst recovery can help with sticky situation yes but it is hardly gamebreaking.

Let's try comparing apples to apples. Both races have full damage setup and no regen items.

IZZEFlameLash · September 2018

No

usmguy1234 wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

The only thing Argonians have better than others is the off stat sustain. A player can get more mag regen out of high elf if they are sitting at somewhere around 2k regen (can't remember the exact number) but the Argonian will have better stam sustain than the high elf. But the high elf gets way more magicka and the elemental damage passive. Seems pretty balanced to me.

If Argonian got nerfed I would race change immediately.

In a pvp sense sustain is everything. If you can sustain with only potions this allows you to stack fully in to damage. The reason the other races out perform argonians in pve is because sustain isn't such an issue. That 2k regen that my altmer has doesn't mean anything when I'm getting blasted with cost poisons and getting cc'd continuously.

Cost poisons don't affect regen so I don't get what you are trying to say here.

Obviously... it's after the cost poison drains your resources that I was talking about. The difference between popping a potion and everything going to almost full.... while the other classes pray they can land a few heavy attacks, etc because a potion is literally enough for a couple of skills if that. If you rely on your native regen + potion, you are screwed... So yes those class with an extra 10% regen doesn't really mean anything.

You see, if an Argonian doesn't run a potion build, that is 10k of primary resource every 45 seconds (if this wasn't a tri pot) and that translates into around 400 rec per 2 seconds. And assuming that you did not build for sustain, that is 1k recovery in total which compared to an Altmer with near 1.6k miminum (only Potent Brew) to 3k (Lich proc and Potent Brew etc) isn't that much and the Argonian with no regen investment will still run out of the juice faster than the Altmer with proper build. If you build sustain on Argonian, you then lose even more damage. Argonian is not some magic race that allows you to sustain indefinitely. Burst recovery can help with sticky situation yes but it is hardly gamebreaking.

Let's try comparing apples to apples. Both races have full damage setup and no regen items.

I believe Altmers still win out especially since the potion will give Major Intellect buff to Altmer which further amplifies their already amplified regen stat on their resource. And on top of them doing more damage with extra 7% magicka and 4% bonus on elements. Argonian sustains are good bailout but again, it is not groundbreaking if you don't use the particular niche build. Also, keep in mind that larger magicka pool also translates into sustain as it allows you to cast more spells. Only way Argonian sustain will be really good is when you have built some sustain in some shape or form which means sacrificing damage on already non-DPS race. Or certain stam setup.

dodgehopper_ESO · September 2018

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Yes, everyone knows argonian passives are stupidly strong.

And yes the potion passive is the best resource passive in the game. You usually get more stamina return from an argonian than you would a redguard for example then you have the other resources as well.

It comes with a cost though doesn't it? You have to actually use potions chug-a-lug.

Kolache · September 2018

Yes

Yes, but fugly so.. balance.

FloppyTouch · September 2018

Yes

Without a doubt my swim speed is OP as hell. I can jump in the lake and swim to the other side and light attack until my enemy drowns.

Crixus8000 · September 2018

No

Argonian is such a versitile and solid race but they aren't bis for everything even with how important sustain is in pvp. The sustain passive is really good but I think people are overestemating the resource return. It's only every 45 seconds, that is quite a long time to get 4.6k of each resource. You can time pots to use when you most need it to get you out of a bad situation but most builds will want pot on cooldown anyway. Using x3 infused reduced pot cooldowns would give amazing sustain for sure but your sacrificing like 900 wep/spell dmg for that.

I do think argonian is very good, but in no way does it need a nerf, if anything bring the lesser races up to the same standard.

Stigant · September 2018

Argonian 'StamSorc' alt here...
Runing tristat food 7th + Alchemist + Troll King in BGs (noncp), 5 heavy/2medium, infused potion cooldown on all 3 jewelry pieces. My recoveries are around 550 on both mag and stam, my damage for bursts is there on demand every 21 seconds (one jewelry is purple), pressure from dw and 2h axes and hurricane still active and if I manage my resources well i can even afford to run 3 mag skills (streak, crit surge and dark deal)

Would love to add master axes...

But back to the topic... yes Argonian is strong in resource management and can have good damage as well, but you really need to build for it and it's expansive... so I'd say it's fine because it comes with high price and really niche approach. Sacrificing all 3 enchantments on jewelry and all 3 traits as well, otherwise it wouldn't work.