What do you say about fake tanks? What about heals?

Guppet · September 2018

ruikkarikun wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

No, we're just under the assumption that all magic DPS are NB sustain gods that don't require E-Drain in dungeons.

Ok, but really, sometimes when you get those rare godly DPS groups and can focus more on DPSing as a healer than actually healing, you tend to tunnel vision and forget to keep some group buffs up. Can't speak for those that don't bother with it at all but that's what happens in my case.

All magicka dd are NBS??
My NB friend always comlain about elemental drain.

I just check here
https://alcasthq.com/eso-magicka-templar-healer-build-pve/

and here

https://youtu.be/4gnxYuwIFJw?t=9m44s
What do you all say?

You do know that no one has to follow alcasts guides, most people dont even know they exist. They are not compulsory, you can’t use the fact he produced a guide as evidence that that’s how other people must play.

In fact if he saw the way your using his guide, he would probably tell you to never visit his sites again.

VirtualElizabeth · September 2018

Guppet wrote: »

ruikkarikun wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

No, we're just under the assumption that all magic DPS are NB sustain gods that don't require E-Drain in dungeons.

Ok, but really, sometimes when you get those rare godly DPS groups and can focus more on DPSing as a healer than actually healing, you tend to tunnel vision and forget to keep some group buffs up. Can't speak for those that don't bother with it at all but that's what happens in my case.

All magicka dd are NBS??
My NB friend always comlain about elemental drain.

I just check here
https://alcasthq.com/eso-magicka-templar-healer-build-pve/

and here

https://youtu.be/4gnxYuwIFJw?t=9m44s
What do you all say?

You do know that no one has to follow alcasts guides, most people dont even know they exist. They are not compulsory, you can’t use the fact he produced a guide as evidence that that’s how other people must play.

In fact if he saw the way your using his guide, he would probably tell you to never visit his sites again.

This is why I stopped high end PVE content (trials mainly). I got fed up with all the MUSTS thrown at me about HOW I should be playing that I figured I am must not a good candidate for this side of the ESO experience. Plus I just like PVP better!

idk · September 2018

For starters. I am probably doing more dps than the two dps combined so if I can sustain they should be just fine.

More importantly, if your queueing for a vet group your choosing to do a dice roll. If your wanting specific skills run form your own group.

MooseKnuckles88 · September 2018

I typically keep ele drain slotted on both my DD characters, so it really doesn't matter much to me. I usually have one destructive staff skill ability on both bars for the ancient knowledge passive as it is.

And fake tanks outweigh fake healers by a large margin imo. I can slot self heal if it that's bad, but I can't slot an extra +25k in health and a taunt and tank specific gear on the fly.

zaria · September 2018

ruikkarikun wrote: »

I know it's pugs problem. But still he didn't heal good, did't use ele drain even after our ask. I just had a bad day ok.

I got complain once that I used ele drain since both DD was stamina, I answered I used it also for my own regen.
And its easy to use.

Waffennacht · September 2018

It's so rare for pugs to:
Actually be their role
Be good at their role
And use the best skills for said role

So for Pugging, I set up as if I'm solo and go to work.

Aka - no one ever has ele drain for whatever reason and I end up being the one to slot it (on any role)

GreenHere · September 2018

I honestly don't get why it's my job, when I'm on one of my healers, to focus more on the group's sustain than they do. I've sometimes considered posting the opposite of this thread's question.

I like to support my teammates, don't get me wrong. I throw orbs and/or shards. I keep up ele drain too. I do decent(ish) dps and provide Off-Balance. And I'm pumping out consistent heals.

BUT if I'm not wearing Worm I must be some kind of idiot, because I'm not shaving FOUR percent off your magicka costs. And you're not seeing the stam return of my Master's resto staff, so I'm twice touched in the head. "Wait, wait, WAIT... WHAT?!?! Are those not LUMINOUS SHARDS?! gtfo... yore ded 2 us..."

People get so particular and sh***y about what they expect from healers sometimes, it gets really tempting to just stand around and play the /lute in between the occasional Rapid Regen cast. I'm really sorry that veteran Spindleclutch 2 is such a hard dungeon for you (especially since I'm in here with you atm). But rest assured, I've kept people worse than you alive through here just fine. And we beat the dungeon with less drama (and in less time), because we were all busy having fun and playing the game. Instead of worrying about fine tuning my setup, how about you worry about not standing directly in all the red stuff under your feet?

I don't often see this sort of attitude, thankfully, but when I do it's usually from people who aren't really good enough to be bossing anyone around in the first place. And when they are good, I still don't appreciate the attitude. I don't get the entitlement, nor do I respect it.

You really can't live with the standard cost of your abilities? Without synergies every 20 seconds to manage your resources for you? Without 300 magicka every second? Get real, dude... Your problems aren't with me not supporting you enough, it's that you've become cripplingly reliant on a BiS-trials healer setup doing a quarter of your job for you in all situations. Just do a heavy attack or two like the rest of us do when we get stuck with a less-than-ideal healer, and move on.

Often healers are made to feel unnecessary in content, and then entitlement to buffs and dictation of sets/skills/setups are sprinkled on top. Thus many people who are capable of keeping the team upright don't want to queue up to do so. And I don't blame them.

**NOTE, this post is not in any way an attack on the OP. Just trying to offer a little perspective on the flip side of this issue. And maybe vent a little. Any uses of "you/your/etc" are the figurative, royal you; not you you.

GreenHere · September 2018

Also just wanted to add, that often people assume a healer is an experienced healer. Lots of times the healer you're seeing might have recently become one, and is still learning the ropes.

I personally know a few CP cap players that changed roles after CP 800+, and had no idea what they were doing at first. Everyone's gotta learn. Some don't learn until way late in the game, because they were busy with other stuff til they got around to it.

Just something to think about.

jaws343 · September 2018

Just a note, unless they are end game healers or running in trials, they probably don't even use a detro staff. I know when I first started healing I ran double restro. A situation that prevents the use of Ele drain. So as much as you can request the skill be used for your benefit, they probably cannot slot it because their destro skill line isn't leveled and they do not have a staff.

VaranisArano · September 2018

This picture remains pertinent when it comes to what most actual healers think of their PUG teammates.

VirtualElizabeth · September 2018

VaranisArano wrote: »

This picture remains pertinent when it comes to what most actual healers think of their PUG teammates.

Troof!! LOL

kathandira · September 2018

GreenHere wrote: »

I honestly don't get why it's my job, when I'm on one of my healers, to focus more on the group's sustain than they do. I've sometimes considered posting the opposite of this thread's question.

I like to support my teammates, don't get me wrong. I throw orbs and/or shards. I keep up ele drain too. I do decent(ish) dps and provide Off-Balance. And I'm pumping out consistent heals.

BUT if I'm not wearing Worm I must be some kind of idiot, because I'm not shaving FOUR percent off your magicka costs. And you're not seeing the stam return of my Master's resto staff, so I'm twice touched in the head. "Wait, wait, WAIT... WHAT?!?! Are those not LUMINOUS SHARDS?! gtfo... yore ded 2 us..."

People get so particular and sh***y about what they expect from healers sometimes, it gets really tempting to just stand around and play the /lute in between the occasional Rapid Regen cast. I'm really sorry that veteran Spindleclutch 2 is such a hard dungeon for you (especially since I'm in here with you atm). But rest assured, I've kept people worse than you alive through here just fine. And we beat the dungeon with less drama (and in less time), because we were all busy having fun and playing the game. Instead of worrying about fine tuning my setup, how about you worry about not standing directly in all the red stuff under your feet?

I don't often see this sort of attitude, thankfully, but when I do it's usually from people who aren't really good enough to be bossing anyone around in the first place. And when they are good, I still don't appreciate the attitude. I don't get the entitlement, nor do I respect it.

You really can't live with the standard cost of your abilities? Without synergies every 20 seconds to manage your resources for you? Without 300 magicka every second? Get real, dude... Your problems aren't with me not supporting you enough, it's that you've become cripplingly reliant on a BiS-trials healer setup doing a quarter of your job for you in all situations. Just do a heavy attack or two like the rest of us do when we get stuck with a less-than-ideal healer, and move on.

Often healers are made to feel unnecessary in content, and then entitlement to buffs and dictation of sets/skills/setups are sprinkled on top. Thus many people who are capable of keeping the team upright don't want to queue up to do so. And I don't blame them.

**NOTE, this post is not in any way an attack on the OP. Just trying to offer a little perspective on the flip side of this issue. And maybe vent a little. Any uses of "you/your/etc" are the figurative, royal you; not you you.

I thought about instead of using Worm Cult, just going with Seducers. It is 8% for just me, rather than 4% for the group. But in the end, 4% in Trials can actually help in the long run. I also run Spell Power Cure, which again isn't an incredible increase to Spell Damage, but it is still an increase, and overhealing happens often enough to keep the buff up most the fight.

But there are various ways to play a healer. If you want to be 1/2 healing and 1/2 DPS, that is still a great help to the group. If you want to be all healing, well at least no one will ever die. If you want to be support (like me), and can still keep people alive, while providing buffs, that is also great.

It all depends on how you want to play, and if you can pull it off well enough for things to go smoothly.

In my opinion at least, = )

Glurin · September 2018

GreenHere wrote: »

I honestly don't get why it's my job, when I'm on one of my healers, to focus more on the group's sustain than they do.

"I can't worry about my sustain! It would hurt muh deeps!"

That's why. You're protecting people from their own stupidity as much as you are healing their wounds.

Armatesz · September 2018

kathandira wrote: »

ruikkarikun wrote: »

Simple question. 780 cp+, both dd is magicka and you heal. You don't use elemental drain.

Why?

I get those too much in vet dungeons. Are you insane guys?

I use this instead.

http://esoacademy.com/skills/radiant-aura/

For the Weakness to Elements, I also use that, but as: http://esoacademy.com/skills/elemental-susceptibility/ instead. This combo offers more buffs, and I can keep the Weakness to Elements buff up the entire fight with Ritual of Retribution + Heavy Attacks from my Resto Staff.

Yeah a lot of people knock elemental susceptibility thing but it is a valid tactic if you are running with radiant aura, extended ritual procs it as well so it always stays on.

Salvas_Aren · September 2018

Nothing tops two glass cannons who drain a healer on purpose.

Armatesz · September 2018

kathandira wrote: »

Agenericname wrote: »

ruikkarikun wrote: »

I get those too much in vet dungeons. Are you insane guys?

I dont necessarily think that not using ele drain makes someone a "fake" healer and certainly doesnt qualify them as insane.

I do the same thing I do when I encounter a "fake" tank or low DPS DD, adapt or move on. In most cases, adapt.

Indeed. I think a "fake healer" is someone who uses Blood Altar, then proceeds to DPS the entire fight, only maintaining Blood Altar.

If they are throwing out actual heals, they are a real healer. Maybe not a great healer, but a real one at the least.

Or the people that think healers only need to use orbs and breath of life without actually understanding it. There is a lot to being a healer and there is so many different ways to do them as well.

What_In_Tarnation · September 2018

This is the only time I really need elemental drain and shards/orbs, but healer didn't even dish what I need even though I've asked him few times. While another dps was just wielding his big bad 2handler and never bother bar-swapping (No kindding, I had never see him bar-swapping in CoH 1).

Then tank was trying to tank only 1 boss (The melee 2h boss) and separated them, I was always try to re-positioning my refreshing path + elemental blockade and hit both of them.

This isn't just fake healer, but also fake dps and slightly fake tank in one group. I know it's a PuG...

Btw, this is just few days ago.

But compared with fake healer, I hate fake dps even more. Here's another example from today's pledge (EH2):

JimmyJuJu · September 2018

Here's my (templar) healer kit:

Front bar, charged shock staff
- Shards
- Sweeps
- Ritual
- Wall of Ele
- Ele Drain
- Eye of Storm

Back Bar, decisive resto staff:
- Honor the Dead
- Springs
- Rapid Regen (or Orbs)
- Combat Prayer
- Healing Ward
- Barrier

Lather. Rinse. Repeat.

And...
- Kags for rez
- SPC >90% uptime (depends on the content, tho)

kathandira · September 2018

Armatesz wrote: »

kathandira wrote: »

ruikkarikun wrote: »

Simple question. 780 cp+, both dd is magicka and you heal. You don't use elemental drain.

Why?

I get those too much in vet dungeons. Are you insane guys?

I use this instead.

http://esoacademy.com/skills/radiant-aura/

For the Weakness to Elements, I also use that, but as: http://esoacademy.com/skills/elemental-susceptibility/ instead. This combo offers more buffs, and I can keep the Weakness to Elements buff up the entire fight with Ritual of Retribution + Heavy Attacks from my Resto Staff.

Yeah a lot of people knock elemental susceptibility thing but it is a valid tactic if you are running with radiant aura, extended ritual procs it as well so it always stays on.

I figure using elemental susceptibility is great as a healer. That is one less skill in a DPS rotation. If they can get to a damage skill faster than if they had to reapply the buff, that is a great help to them. Plus using radiant aura as well. The less skills they have to use that don't cause damage, the faster things will die, and the less work I have to do to keep everyone alive, lol.

For me, it is all about finding the least strenuous way to get things done = )

GreenHere · September 2018

What_In_Tarnation wrote: »

*snip*]

I think you're throwing around the label "fake" too liberally. A tank who does it differently than you would or would like isn't a fake tank. Someone who feels entitled to being carried through the dungeon with no taunt because "we don't need a tank here anyway, lol" and they just queued as one is a fake tank. And a jerk.

Similarly, a fake healer isn't someone who's just not super good at healing. A fake healer is a dps who just throws an orb every now and then (maybe), but just queues as healer to skip the line of others who queue honestly.

I don't think I've ever seen a fake dps, and they probably aren't a thing really... Why would a tank or healer queue as a dps? Just because someone isn't good at the role they're in doesn't make them fake or dishonest. It just means they aren't "good" by some measure or another.

Fake tanks are a real problem, but everyone calling everyone a fake everything is becoming a problem now too.

Samsgaard · September 2018

What_In_Tarnation wrote: »

Then tank was trying to tank only 1 boss (The melee 2h boss) and separated them...

A long time ago, I was taught to separate the twins and hold aggro on the stationary one with a ranged taunt. I was a little surprised, after coming back to the game, to be told to stack them. I'm seeing this pretty much across the board in non-DLC dungeons, though. It seems that as a result of power creep, mechanics are virtually irrelevant, even on vet HM. "Don't stand in stupid" has become "Why are you moving around?"

Shewolf075 · September 2018

High DPS players rolling as healers in randoms is a problem. If you are wanting to burn through a dungeon quickly and queued as a "Healer" please at least use healing for the group or tell the random group you are a DPS. Be honest about it then everyone can get ready for the ride.

firedrgn · September 2018

ruikkarikun wrote: »

Simple question. 780 cp+, both dd is magicka and you heal. You don't use elemental drain.

Why?

I get those too much in vet dungeons. Are you insane guys?

What others said no one stops to figure out skills and bars. ..

I que as a healer on vet dungeons. Mag sorc. I run resto and destruction. Lay down aoes then heal.

I normmly heal and do anywhere from 30 to 60 % of dps on all vet runs. In some rare cases i do 20 ish

What_In_Tarnation · September 2018

GreenHere wrote: »

What_In_Tarnation wrote: »

*snip*]

I think you're throwing around the label "fake" too liberally. A tank who does it differently than you would or would like isn't a fake tank. Someone who feels entitled to being carried through the dungeon with no taunt because "we don't need a tank here anyway, lol" and they just queued as one is a fake tank. And a jerk.

Similarly, a fake healer isn't someone who's just not super good at healing. A fake healer is a dps who just throws an orb every now and then (maybe), but just queues as healer to skip the line of others who queue honestly.

I don't think I've ever seen a fake dps, and they probably aren't a thing really... Why would a tank or healer queue as a dps? Just because someone isn't good at the role they're in doesn't make them fake or dishonest. It just means they aren't "good" by some measure or another.

Fake tanks are a real problem, but everyone calling everyone a fake everything is becoming a problem now too.

I should be more detail here, the healer here is acutally like you said, it's a dps queued as healer who just spamming jab. You're right about no fake dps. there're only bad dps. And this healer is one of them. And I think I was being harsh on this tank, since I have tank mains and tank CoH1 with stacked. So my experience probably reflect on that tank.

And I have to said it again. Just watch the total damage and group damage, that's just abnormal.

Samsgaard wrote: »

What_In_Tarnation wrote: »

Then tank was trying to tank only 1 boss (The melee 2h boss) and separated them...

A long time ago, I was taught to separate the twins and hold aggro on the stationary one with a ranged taunt. I was a little surprised, after coming back to the game, to be told to stack them. I'm seeing this pretty much across the board in non-DLC dungeons, though. It seems that as a result of power creep, mechanics are virtually irrelevant, even on vet HM. "Don't stand in stupid" has become "Why are you moving around?"

This is true. The old times were no decent buff like right now. With champion point system it's getting easier and easier for sure. But part of of the reason I was expected tank taunt 2 bosses and burn them evenly is becuase it will make the mechanics last shorter. I think play smart is a good thing if tank wanna be decent. And due to my personal tank experience, I think I just hope the tank did what I always did. This is indeed my bad. Shouldn't expect too much from them.

D0PAMINE · September 2018

Unless the content is tough I could care less what the healer uses. I can sustain myself well. Not using ele drain doesn't make them a fake healer. These forums are getting even more rediculous every thread.

Androconium · September 2018

So, I guess my Redguard crafter with the same four magsorc abilities on both bars probably can't help you.
he's got soul-trap morphed to do summit or uver.

Feel free to revive me when I die. Assuming that you all actually waited for me before you started playing.

Is Willows Path and Darkstride a good combo?

Grandesdar · September 2018

I have some serious question about that, I never used a healer or magicka character but I have a frost staff backbar tank, I can easily tank vet end game content, but would my ele drain be useful if the healer doesn't use it? I've been using shalks (they give aoe mag resist reduction) for mobs. Not sure if the same thing honestly.

GreenHere · September 2018

Grandesdar wrote: »

I have some serious question about that, I never used a healer or magicka character but I have a frost staff backbar tank, I can easily tank vet end game content, but would my ele drain be useful if the healer doesn't use it? I've been using shalks (they give aoe mag resist reduction) for mobs. Not sure if the same thing honestly.

Yes -- if you see that your healer isn't giving Ele Drain, and are feeling benevolent, using your staff to apply it helps the magicka users. The magicka return that Elemental Drain offers is a flat value no matter your stats, so it's just as useful no matter who applies it.

The shalks only reduce resistances of enemies hit; they do not convey the Minor Magickasteal buff.

DisgracefulMind · September 2018

GreenHere wrote: »

I honestly don't get why it's my job, when I'm on one of my healers, to focus more on the group's sustain than they do. I've sometimes considered posting the opposite of this thread's question.

I like to support my teammates, don't get me wrong. I throw orbs and/or shards. I keep up ele drain too. I do decent(ish) dps and provide Off-Balance. And I'm pumping out consistent heals.

BUT if I'm not wearing Worm I must be some kind of idiot, because I'm not shaving FOUR percent off your magicka costs. And you're not seeing the stam return of my Master's resto staff, so I'm twice touched in the head. "Wait, wait, WAIT... WHAT?!?! Are those not LUMINOUS SHARDS?! gtfo... yore ded 2 us..."

People get so particular and sh***y about what they expect from healers sometimes, it gets really tempting to just stand around and play the /lute in between the occasional Rapid Regen cast. I'm really sorry that veteran Spindleclutch 2 is such a hard dungeon for you (especially since I'm in here with you atm). But rest assured, I've kept people worse than you alive through here just fine. And we beat the dungeon with less drama (and in less time), because we were all busy having fun and playing the game. Instead of worrying about fine tuning my setup, how about you worry about not standing directly in all the red stuff under your feet?

I don't often see this sort of attitude, thankfully, but when I do it's usually from people who aren't really good enough to be bossing anyone around in the first place. And when they are good, I still don't appreciate the attitude. I don't get the entitlement, nor do I respect it.

You really can't live with the standard cost of your abilities? Without synergies every 20 seconds to manage your resources for you? Without 300 magicka every second? Get real, dude... Your problems aren't with me not supporting you enough, it's that you've become cripplingly reliant on a BiS-trials healer setup doing a quarter of your job for you in all situations. Just do a heavy attack or two like the rest of us do when we get stuck with a less-than-ideal healer, and move on.

Often healers are made to feel unnecessary in content, and then entitlement to buffs and dictation of sets/skills/setups are sprinkled on top. Thus many people who are capable of keeping the team upright don't want to queue up to do so. And I don't blame them.

**NOTE, this post is not in any way an attack on the OP. Just trying to offer a little perspective on the flip side of this issue. And maybe vent a little. Any uses of "you/your/etc" are the figurative, royal you; not you you.

It's your job because you're a healer. End of story.

I'm a healer too, and I don't expect to not have to provide the necessary support.

GreenHere · September 2018

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

GreenHere wrote: »

I honestly don't get why it's my job, when I'm on one of my healers, to focus more on the group's sustain than they do. I've sometimes considered posting the opposite of this thread's question.

I like to support my teammates, don't get me wrong. I throw orbs and/or shards. I keep up ele drain too. I do decent(ish) dps and provide Off-Balance. And I'm pumping out consistent heals.

BUT if I'm not wearing Worm I must be some kind of idiot, because I'm not shaving FOUR percent off your magicka costs. And you're not seeing the stam return of my Master's resto staff, so I'm twice touched in the head. "Wait, wait, WAIT... WHAT?!?! Are those not LUMINOUS SHARDS?! gtfo... yore ded 2 us..."

People get so particular and sh***y about what they expect from healers sometimes, it gets really tempting to just stand around and play the /lute in between the occasional Rapid Regen cast. I'm really sorry that veteran Spindleclutch 2 is such a hard dungeon for you (especially since I'm in here with you atm). But rest assured, I've kept people worse than you alive through here just fine. And we beat the dungeon with less drama (and in less time), because we were all busy having fun and playing the game. Instead of worrying about fine tuning my setup, how about you worry about not standing directly in all the red stuff under your feet?

I don't often see this sort of attitude, thankfully, but when I do it's usually from people who aren't really good enough to be bossing anyone around in the first place. And when they are good, I still don't appreciate the attitude. I don't get the entitlement, nor do I respect it.

You really can't live with the standard cost of your abilities? Without synergies every 20 seconds to manage your resources for you? Without 300 magicka every second? Get real, dude... Your problems aren't with me not supporting you enough, it's that you've become cripplingly reliant on a BiS-trials healer setup doing a quarter of your job for you in all situations. Just do a heavy attack or two like the rest of us do when we get stuck with a less-than-ideal healer, and move on.

Often healers are made to feel unnecessary in content, and then entitlement to buffs and dictation of sets/skills/setups are sprinkled on top. Thus many people who are capable of keeping the team upright don't want to queue up to do so. And I don't blame them.

**NOTE, this post is not in any way an attack on the OP. Just trying to offer a little perspective on the flip side of this issue. And maybe vent a little. Any uses of "you/your/etc" are the figurative, royal you; not you you.

It's your job because you're a healer. End of story.

I'm a healer too, and I don't expect to not have to provide the necessary support.

Oh, I never looked at it that way. Thanks for explaining! Now it all makes sense...