Can something be done about Phoenix & Yokeda being used for No Death Achievements

Nifty2g · September 2018

(2 items) Adds 1096 Max Magicka
(3 items) Adds 129 Magicka Recovery
(4 items) Adds 129 Spell Damage
(5 items) When you die, you instead become immune to all negative effects and healing for 3 seconds. When the effect ends, you heal for 17200 Health and explode for 8600 Flame Damage to all enemies within 8 meters. This effect can occur once every 10 minutes.

(2 items) Adds 4% Healing Taken
(3) Gain Minor Aegis at all times, reducing your damage taken from Dungeon and Trial Monsters by 5%.
(4 items) Adds 1206 Max Health
(5 items) When you die, you instead turn into a statue for 3 seconds and gain 200 Ultimate. While a statue you are immune to all negative effects but can still be healed. This effect can occur once every 10 minutes.
(5 items) Adds 4% Healing Taken

This is mainly a thread at those groups who have been using these sets for months in Asylum & Cloudrest for somewhat easier hardmode kills making it easier than intended.

This has been going on for awhile now and these sets have been used for quite some time to be used for getting achievements that are intended to be the hardest in the game by defeating the purpose of "no death". Devaluing achievements with these sets shouldn't be a thing, these sets should be a little reworked and maybe change the threshold so it's a proc at 10% health instead of 0% health so it's not used as a total crutch. I personally do not mind the set, it's a decent concept but it should be changed a little bit so it doesn't flat out screw with intended hardest achievements to get, it makes unrewarding content even more unrewarding.

I hope you guys at ZOS look into this so that the content is not easier just because of a set like this allowing people to die during a no death, depending whatever the content is, either a trial or a dungeon.

Just because a set is in the game doesn't mean it should be used, and this is clearly overlooked and the proc could be changed to where it would make it a tad bit unappealing and not as strong for the PvE content.

@ZOS_Finn @ZOS_GinaBruno

geonsocal · September 2018

this is different...a pve perspective hating on a pvp set...

best thread ever...

Edit: oh yeah, nerf wardens

Feanor · September 2018

I mean...just count a set proc as a death in regards to the achievement. Problem solved without nerfing the set.

Kikke · September 2018

The loss in dps is big enough that if someone wants too play safe, they should be allowed too. No?

Also these sets are in the game, so what they are doing is not cheating by any means. Just a clever use of game mechanics xD

MehrunesFlagon · September 2018

geonsocal wrote: »

this is different...a pve perspective hating on a pvp set...

best thread ever...

Edit: oh yeah, nerf wardens

With one exception.Yokeda is a pve set that just happens to share the same effect as Phoenix.

Nifty2g · September 2018

kikkehs wrote: »

The loss in dps is big enough that if someone wants too play safe, they should be allowed too. No?

Also these sets are in the game, so what they are doing is not cheating by any means. Just a clever use of game mechanics xD

The loss in dps is not big enough as most No Death's are easily able to be done with lower dps and still meet the time requirement.

This is not a clever use of game mechanics, this is just making something that was intended to be difficult much easier for groups that can not do it the intended way it was meant to be, it's nothing more than that. Why would such a thing ever be allowed in hardest content? It just diminishes the actual achievement that players worked hard to get by doing it the intended way the developers wanted it. And that content is created for top players to set out to work for. So what's the point of setting out to do it and having a nice reward or a rare title and ruin the rewarding factor even more with sets like these?

For the record, Asylum & Cloudrest no death speed runs are 15 minutes. And Halls of Fabrication is 40 minutes.You can technically get 2 procs in asylum and cloudrest and 3 in halls of fabrication.

Sparr0w · September 2018

Is this why stam aren't welcome to achievement runs

Epona222 · September 2018

Why does it matter so much to you if someone gets a no death achievement for something by using these sets? Have they denied you anything in doing so? One assumes that if you wanted to you could get and use these sets yourself for a no death run, so it doesn't appear that anything unfair is going on, per se.

Carbonised · September 2018

Wow what a petty complaint.

Nifty2g · September 2018

Epona222 wrote: »

Why does it matter so much to you if someone gets a no death achievement for something by using these sets? Have they denied you anything in doing so? One assumes that if you wanted to you could get and use these sets yourself for a no death run, so it doesn't appear that anything unfair is going on, per se.

Wouldn't you find it a little unfair groups are doing it much easier than it was meant to be compared to those who are putting in the effort for it?
Goes for anything in life really, why would it be fine for things to be much easier than what it's supposed to be?

I just don't understand why such a set exists let alone works for this sort of thing

Nifty2g · September 2018

Carbonised wrote: »

Wow what a petty complaint.

How is it petty?

starkerealm · September 2018

Nifty2g wrote: »

...this is just making something that was intended to be difficult much easier...

So, just like literally every other set in the game?

No, I understand what you're saying, and how this allows a group to die three times in Halls, and twice in AS and Cloudrest. But, seriously, this is how sets work. Is it cheating to run Ebon because that guy over there should have been one shot because their health wasn't high enough?

I mean, I know that's a ridiculous counterexample, but this is a ridiculous example to begin with. People are using a set that prevents death to avoid dying? Alert the press.

Nifty2g · September 2018

starkerealm wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

...this is just making something that was intended to be difficult much easier...

So, just like literally every other set in the game?

No, I understand what you're saying, and how this allows a group to die three times in Halls, and twice in AS and Cloudrest. But, seriously, this is how sets work. Is it cheating to run Ebon because that guy over there should have been one shot because their health wasn't high enough?

I mean, I know that's a ridiculous counterexample, but this is a ridiculous example to begin with. People are using a set that prevents death to avoid dying? Alert the press.

When did I say it is cheating. I said it is making something easier than intended to be, nothing about cheating.

Epona222 · September 2018

Nifty2g wrote: »

Epona222 wrote: »

Why does it matter so much to you if someone gets a no death achievement for something by using these sets? Have they denied you anything in doing so? One assumes that if you wanted to you could get and use these sets yourself for a no death run, so it doesn't appear that anything unfair is going on, per se.

Wouldn't you find it a little unfair groups are doing it much easier than it was meant to be compared to those who are putting in the effort for it?
Goes for anything in life really, why would it be fine for things to be much easier than what it's supposed to be?

I just don't understand why such a set exists let alone works for this sort of thing

How do you know it was meant to be more difficult? There is no indication that is the case. The sets are in the game, you could use them yourself - it's not something that is restricted to just a few people - Yokeda drops from normal crag trials, and Phoenix set is purchasable with Tel Var - it's not like some hidden cheat.

Fishoscandi · September 2018

I think this is really clever

But I also see how it could *** some people off...

Nifty2g · September 2018

Epona222 wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Epona222 wrote: »

Why does it matter so much to you if someone gets a no death achievement for something by using these sets? Have they denied you anything in doing so? One assumes that if you wanted to you could get and use these sets yourself for a no death run, so it doesn't appear that anything unfair is going on, per se.

Wouldn't you find it a little unfair groups are doing it much easier than it was meant to be compared to those who are putting in the effort for it?
Goes for anything in life really, why would it be fine for things to be much easier than what it's supposed to be?

I just don't understand why such a set exists let alone works for this sort of thing

How do you know it was meant to be more difficult? There is no indication that is the case. The sets are in the game, you could use them yourself - it's not something that is restricted to just a few people - Yokeda drops from normal crag trials, and Phoenix set is purchasable with Tel Var - it's not like some hidden cheat.

Because it literally says in the achievement "without suffering a group member death" and both sets read themselves "when you die you instead [...]"

It's not rocket science to figure out it was overlooked and making things easier than what it was meant to be.

xericdx · September 2018

I never used those sets but still, they are accessible to all, so I don't see any problem if someone is using them to get the achievement. Just using the appropriate set for the appropriate achievement.

Anyway the main achievement in vDungeon is the combination of several achievements, speed/no death/hard mode. Even with those sets you still need a decent group to complete all and your skin/title/etc.

Epona222 · September 2018

Nifty2g wrote: »

Epona222 wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Epona222 wrote: »

Why does it matter so much to you if someone gets a no death achievement for something by using these sets? Have they denied you anything in doing so? One assumes that if you wanted to you could get and use these sets yourself for a no death run, so it doesn't appear that anything unfair is going on, per se.

Wouldn't you find it a little unfair groups are doing it much easier than it was meant to be compared to those who are putting in the effort for it?
Goes for anything in life really, why would it be fine for things to be much easier than what it's supposed to be?

I just don't understand why such a set exists let alone works for this sort of thing

How do you know it was meant to be more difficult? There is no indication that is the case. The sets are in the game, you could use them yourself - it's not something that is restricted to just a few people - Yokeda drops from normal crag trials, and Phoenix set is purchasable with Tel Var - it's not like some hidden cheat.

Because it literally says in the achievement "without suffering a group member death" and both sets read themselves "when you die you instead [...]"

It's not rocket science to figure out it was overlooked and making things easier than what it was meant to be.

Well I guess we'll find out whether it was intended or not depending on whether Zeni do anything based on your /bug report - until then we're just guessing about what was intended

Qbiken · September 2018

I'm almost considering this as bait....

Kikke · September 2018

I'm sorry, I am usually not the one throwing this word around. But OP, might you maybe be just abit too elitist? =\

Sparr0w · September 2018

Nifty2g wrote: »

Epona222 wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Epona222 wrote: »

Why does it matter so much to you if someone gets a no death achievement for something by using these sets? Have they denied you anything in doing so? One assumes that if you wanted to you could get and use these sets yourself for a no death run, so it doesn't appear that anything unfair is going on, per se.

Wouldn't you find it a little unfair groups are doing it much easier than it was meant to be compared to those who are putting in the effort for it?
Goes for anything in life really, why would it be fine for things to be much easier than what it's supposed to be?

I just don't understand why such a set exists let alone works for this sort of thing

How do you know it was meant to be more difficult? There is no indication that is the case. The sets are in the game, you could use them yourself - it's not something that is restricted to just a few people - Yokeda drops from normal crag trials, and Phoenix set is purchasable with Tel Var - it's not like some hidden cheat.

Because it literally says in the achievement "without suffering a group member death" and both sets read themselves "when you die you instead [...]"

It's not rocket science to figure out it was overlooked and making things easier than what it was meant to be.

Actually reading into 'when you die you instead' bit, it shouldn't actually count as a death since you instead x.

Can agree it's cheesing a bit, even so it doesn't make it that much easier. Realistically only your tank & healers would be running, but this means giving up a vital set. If the tank drops ebon then the 8 people in the trial not running one of these sets will have a harder time surviving. If the tank drops Alkosh the group DPS will drop considerably, meaning more mechs with the possibility of killing the 8 which aren't wearing these sets. Same argument for mending=survivability/olorime=dps.

saxgooner · September 2018

you have just given a lot more people the idea to try this out

Sheezabeast · September 2018

They each have a 10 minute cool down so I don’t see how this could possibly ensure no death runs...if one every ten minutes you negate a death, that is hardly OP. If it had say a 3 minute cool down then you can cry about it.

Turelus · September 2018

I mean, if they're using sets which otherwise are useless to fill a niche, why not let them?

They still played the content in a legal non-exploit way and these sets are still not invulnerability for bad players who die during the cool down periods, they just take some of the RNG one shots out meaning you don't need to keep replaying the whole dungeon/trial because of one random screw up.

Sharee · September 2018

A set bonus that prevents death once in 10 mins is not "cheating" when it comes to no-death achievements.

Maybe if he used a set bonus that increased healing received, he wouldn't have died in the firstplace.
Maybe if he used a set that increased damage, the boss would be dead before that "death timestamp" would be reached.

Ultimately, all sets help to reach the "no death" goal in one way or another. I see no reason why one set should be an exception.

Thannazzar · September 2018

I appreciate those who achieved the no death run without these sets. I don't begrudge those who used them to achieve the same result. As long as cosmetic rewards are hidden behind the hardest content, there should be ways for most players to get them without being forced down a BiS meta weaving grind.

SilverWF · September 2018

Some ppl are extremely jelly...

Salvas_Aren · September 2018

Nifty2g wrote: »

When did I say it is cheating. I said it is making something easier than intended to be, nothing about cheating.

How do you know that this is not intended?

Zorgon_The_Revenged · September 2018

So the OP is saying to reduce max possible DPS a player can do so these sets couldn't be used to get no death-hard mode-speed runs......ok, gotcha.

"ZOS! DPS is too high, nerf shields a bit!"

From someone who is usually the last person to die I gladly welcome any party members to wear these sets (or at least Mr 60k Dummy score over there).

Tyrobag · September 2018

"ZoS, people are using a set as intended! Make them stop!" Seriously, this is like complaining that people are using ebon to get extra health...

WuffyCerulei · September 2018

I understand where you're coming from. The sets essentially cheese no death achievements without putting in too much work for it. However, the free death comes in handy in certain no deaths. Take Scalecaller Peak. Sometimes you're dunked by being fire-beamed and then poisoned right as you're set free. That's for dungeons tho. For trials, perhaps the death can still be counted in vitality. Perhaps just like an auto rez.

Can something be done about Phoenix &amp; Yokeda being used for No Death Achievements

Can something be done about Phoenix & Yokeda being used for No Death Achievements