Minimun damage requirement for DPS role in vet dungeons

Valrien · August 2018

Most of this forums is basically:

"No, I refuse to improve my skills and carry my weight. You do it for me or I'll kick you"

Agenericname · August 2018

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

Agenericname wrote: »

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

There's one thing I dont get. What causes all this meta hatred? Meta is simply something that works the best.
For example, it would be really strange to avoid buying the best products just because they are too good and too many people are buying them. Its understandable if you dont like the product, but not buying it just because its popular seems kinda weird.
I mean, I can see if someone just likes to play warden ice mage or some other nonmeta build and doesnt want to swap it for a meta magblade, but purposefully gimping yourself just to separate yourself from "those meta pricks"? What's the point?

I also dont undestand how someone can pull high dps AND die all the time. How's that possible? I'm not trolling, I mean... It's just mathematically impossible.

Personally I've never heard or seen "meta" used as a pejorative outside of the forums. In fact, my experience as a whole doesn't mirror much of this at all. For that I am thankful.

"Best" is subjective. A build may have the most DPS mathematically possible and still not he considered the best. There will always be a build that has the most DPS, that much can't he argued. Whether or not it's the best? One becomes better or best if your goal is the most DPS.

Personally I like having a little DPS. I like the 2 characters that I play more though. It's not spite. It's simply a different choice and generally isnt an issue. It only becomes one when I'm told what I should play. That's yet to happen though. I'm either really lucky or live in a bubble.

I really havent found "high DPS" players to be the whiners as far as a demographic goes. They seem to be a little less common than the "everyone does 40k" narrative, but the ones I've encountered are often pretty easy going. I havent found that they die more often either.

To the point, I'd be against a DPS requirement for Vet dungeons. That's a slippery slope.

I don't think your point of view is unreasonable, but you can end up with identical arguments from tanks, who might choose to only taunt bosses, or choose not to provide war-horn, fracture, breach, or maybe just decide while they like to look tanky they only snare because they find taunting demeans their honorable foe into making irrational decisions instead of facing them head on allowing them to have the opportunity to make the best choices they can and still face defeat.

Zarathustra also spake tanking is a rope bridge to what is next and not an end in itself.

So if you queue as a DD and imagine you have no responsibility to provide par-damage, you shouldn't find yourself disappointing if your tank or healer takes a more RP approach to their role.

I suspect you're right. You could end up with those same arguments, and I still wouldn't advocate for arbitrary requirements.

The RP stuff in the last paragraph would be funny, but I dont advocate that either. A conjunction and loose definition are all that keep it from being a straw man.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · August 2018

iiYuki wrote: »

I've seen it before and I think there should be minimum CP at least on ALL veteran dungeons, not saying CP is tied to good players but at least some of them would be gone. I've joined before and been doing over 50% of the DPS which just isn't enough on some bosses then you wipe over and over and everyone leaves wasting your and there time.

I am all for reasonable group finder requirements, but ZOS has no interest in barring new players from most content, as its bad for business. CP is not an issue if you put some time and thought into your build. On my alt account, I was breaking 25k DPS on a dummy immediately after hitting 160 CP with purple crafted gear, and was able to cruise right through VMA in a little over an hour (I think I had 162 CP by the end of it). I couldnt groupfinder the DLCs because of the barriers that already exist, but easily ran a few with buddies.

The number of comments I got in vet dungeons that basically stated, was going to vote to kick you for low CP, but saw your VMA title was staggering. If you exclude based on CP, you are going to let plenty of bad players slip past your net, and exclude plenty of good ones arbitrarily. CP is so front loaded that as long as you are over the gear cap, the only content potentially off limits is Vet trials on HM, assuming you have L2P at some point.

adeptusminor · August 2018

ruikkarikun wrote: »

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Elitism
https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/pdf/10.2105/AJPH.69.5.516

Expecting DPS to perform the minimum of 20k for vet dungeons is no worse then expecting a tank to keep taunt, or a healer to heal. Would it be elitist to get frustrated at tanks that can only hold taunt 50% of the time, because they have a unique build and run out of resources to recast taunt? Would you consider it elitist if people weren't happy that the healer only healed people 50% of the time, leading to deaths the other half, because they couldn't be bothered to learn their class? There are specific roles in this game for dungeons, and those roles come with specific expectations.

Ramber · August 2018

Why don't we complain about something that anyone can actually control? People have every right to queue a dngn at any level of DPS, tanking or healing ability. If i never entered a vet dungeon as a new player i would have never realized how bad i was, this was my first MMO and i had a lot to learn. Yes people called me names and kicked me more then once, those are the people that should be removed NOT the noobs. I had to research how to get good and it took time then i returned as better then most.

Valrien · August 2018

Ramber wrote: »

Why don't we complain about something that anyone can actually control? People have every right to queue a dngn at any level of DPS, tanking or healing ability. If i never entered a vet dungeon as a new player i would have never realized how bad i was, this was my first MMO and i had a lot to learn. Yes people called me names and kicked me more then once, those are the people that should be removed NOT the noobs. I had to research how to get good and it took time then i returned as better then most.

Would this have not had the same effect if you could not enter the dungeon due to failing your DPS check?

If getting kicked prompted you to look up how to do more DPS, so would not being able to do the dungeon in the first place.

Leogon · August 2018

Facefister wrote: »

Even if your DD doesn't ignore mechanic, the reason why he pulls such high DPS i

idk wrote: »

SquareSausage wrote: »

idk wrote: »

SquareSausage wrote: »

Grouped into a vet BC2 today and i can attest to my tank doing 50% damage, the bosses' health bar was dropping under 4k a sec, it was so bad. I had frost wall and engulfing flames up and standard as when ready. One DPS was so scared of fighting he was running away from the adds and resetting the fight constantly on Keeper Imiril when he dissapears and summons adds and then respawns after a short duration. We had banekin, matriarchs, clanfears and boss all up at once for most of the fight.

failed final boss as they couldnt kill behemoths or orbs that heal the boss in time, wasnt even a pledge. Had to quit.

If your tank is doing 50% or the group damage either the group damage is 4K or your tank is setup as a dps.

As I said I was doing 50% of damage with frost wall and engulfing flames for about 2k dps, the healer was trying his hardest to keep the other 2 dps alive who were standing infront of behemoth breath or in the blue fire, the other 2 dps I cant say exactly what they were doing, more likely panicking.

The thing is poor DPS players are usually those who are not very good at game mechanics, or slow reflexes, stubborn, or all of the above and some more. Which all add up to give a terrible outcome in group content.

People saying 50k dps but dies a lot, or 5k dps but never dies on a DD is deluded.

The 50k dps guy will know mechanics inside out, provide aoe and have a shield and/or self heal and can prob solo the dungeon.

The 5k dps will have poor dps, no mechanics understanding, poor response time, gets flustered easy and dies all the time.

First of all, the 50k dps guys are not always good with mechanics. Some need to change their name to SirDiesALot. Granted, they are often better than a new player.

Second, I really cannot see a duo of dps doing only 2k dps total in a vet dungeon. Light attacks do more than that and this thread is about vet dungeons. In the rare case you got 2 dps that fell asleep, maybe but I have never found and vet group as bad as you are suggesting. In normal I have seen sub 10k total a few times.

"High DPS DDs die alot!"-post again.
"2k dps total in a vet dungeon" had them yesterday on Spindle1 vet hm. Those were your "10k dps" guys who died on every cast of the last boss, they both had a combined dps of roughly 4k.

From my experience, both low and high dps players die equally often. The low dps players usually die 'cuz they're new to the game so they don't know all the mechanics, don't have a good rotation, etc. or they die 'cuz they're casual players and usually play the easy content so when they decide to play harder content well they die. As for the high dps players, it's usually 'cuz they think they are the best and so they just stand there, ignore the mechanics and dps like mofos so they can show it off afterwards, they get one-shotted and blame the healer or tank 'cuz they died.

Note: This is not a generalization, more like what I've noticed over the years.

AoDD33pfri3d · August 2018

Well you get what you get when you use activity finder, one time I had a tank who was using a bow. Never heard of that before.

idk · August 2018

Nova Sky wrote: »

Facefister wrote: »

Nova Sky wrote: »

*whistles* Whew. Look at all of the elitists in this thread. Wow. *sigh* It's just too bad your numbers are so small — see what I did there, your numbers are so SMALL — that Zeni will never take this idea seriously.

Why? Because there wouldn't be enough elitists to cover Zeni's bills — let alone generate a profit for them — after such a policy chased away far more players, along with their money, than it would attract.

I think the only game that really thrives on elitists is Eve Online, and that game has, well, a reputation for toxicity (among other things, including awesome trailers that don't match reality).

Anyway, long story short, it'll never happen. Bad business economics.

Noone forces anyone to better themselves. But don't get mad when you're getting kicked out for underperforming with your "unique build"

I have yet to be kicked, but thanks for assuming. There's a lot of that going around the world nowadays, it seems.

To be more specific, my issue is with "toxic elitists," those who demean others who don't "meet their expectations," and kick them from events.

For folks who simply are excellent at their craft and, even better, helpful with others looking to improve their game, more power to them.

No group of solid players would kick a player because of CP, weapons used or perceived dps.

I have entered vet GF with less than a full group and regardless of the role or roles we need filled we cleared the dungeon without issue because we could handle carrying less experienced players.

I am not elite but can easily say those complaining are not elite either.

Silver_Strider · August 2018

I feel 15k is fine for base game vet Dungeons. 20-25K for vet DLC dungeons, depending on the actual dungeons is also reasonable. Things like 35k+ though seem excessive since even vet Trials like VMOL only required 25k minimal to get past it (30k if you wanted to do HM but still).

These are Dungeons for goodness sake, not World 1st Speed Runs that require everyone to be in fully golded out BiS gear with pinpoint perfect rotations. Relax with all this talk of 40K DPS required for vDLC dungeons when it's factually not required.

Ashtaris · August 2018

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

ruikkarikun wrote: »

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Elitism
https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/pdf/10.2105/AJPH.69.5.516

No it's not. It's not unreasonable to ask people to do the job they signed up for.
Entitled low dps dds are the elitists here, actually: they deem themselves special, better than anyone else and thus they shouldnt be judged like those puny tanks and healers. The whole group should be arranged in a special way so that they can be carried through the content.
But what if their tanks or healers arent good enough? Or - god forbid! - another dd isnt strong enough to carry? Spam that "Vote kick" button, of course! It's funny how this acceptance thing only applies to bad dds. Everyone seems to bash fake healers and tanks, but dds are a holy cow of this forum it seems.

P.S. I'm not a fake tank, I'm a real healer who doesnt pug anymore because of those low dps elitists.

OK, so how far do we take this? Do we also have tests for healers to see how much healing, buffs, and DPS they do? Are they providing SPC or Olorime to the group? Are they using Elemental Drain and Wall Of Elements? Got Warhorn slotted? Do you have Nova on the other bar? Better have Combat prayer, Orbs, and Shards!

How about the tank? Are they using proper CC and roots gathering up the mobs? Are they keeping the boss turned away from the DPS/Healer and not moving all over the place? Are they wearing Ebon, Alkosh, or other group buff sets? Are they using the right taunt for the situation?

Since when do we need a litmus test to have fun in this game for Gods sake? If we start requiring people to pass a certain test before they can enter a vet dungeon then I’m afraid we will loose a lot of people in this game.

adeptusminor · August 2018

Ashtaris wrote: »

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

ruikkarikun wrote: »

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Elitism
https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/pdf/10.2105/AJPH.69.5.516

No it's not. It's not unreasonable to ask people to do the job they signed up for.
Entitled low dps dds are the elitists here, actually: they deem themselves special, better than anyone else and thus they shouldnt be judged like those puny tanks and healers. The whole group should be arranged in a special way so that they can be carried through the content.
But what if their tanks or healers arent good enough? Or - god forbid! - another dd isnt strong enough to carry? Spam that "Vote kick" button, of course! It's funny how this acceptance thing only applies to bad dds. Everyone seems to bash fake healers and tanks, but dds are a holy cow of this forum it seems.

P.S. I'm not a fake tank, I'm a real healer who doesnt pug anymore because of those low dps elitists.

OK, so how far do we take this? Do we also have tests for healers to see how much healing, buffs, and DPS they do? Are they providing SPC or Olorime to the group? Are they using Elemental Drain and Wall Of Elements? Got Warhorn slotted? Do you have Nova on the other bar? Better have Combat prayer, Orbs, and Shards!

How about the tank? Are they using proper CC and roots gathering up the mobs? Are they keeping the boss turned away from the DPS/Healer and not moving all over the place? Are they wearing Ebon, Alkosh, or other group buff sets? Are they using the right taunt for the situation?

Since when do we need a litmus test to have fun in this game for Gods sake? If we start requiring people to pass a certain test before they can enter a vet dungeon then I’m afraid we will loose a lot of people in this game.

I mean, they are called veteran dungeons. I get what you are saying, but I really don't think it's too much to ask for each player in their group to carry their own weight and put out a minimum of effort to fulfill the role that they have chosen for the dungeon. It's right there in the name--veteran. They aren't really meant for inexperienced or new players. Is it fun if you are in a group that can't complete the content because one of the DPS either isn't willing or able to pull their own weight, and the other isn't strong enough to carry them?

Having a low dps in a veteran dungeon (by low I'm talking under 20k, i think that is a good bare minimum for people first starting to get into vet dungeons) doesn't really matter to high end dps, they can carry and make up for the slack. The people who are getting punished by having a under-performing dps in the group are other under-performing dps (and tanks, I didn't realize quite how many really really bad dps there are in this game until I leveled a tank. All of you people saying having high dps isn't a big deal go level a tank right now!). I mean it's kind of ironic, but the people getting the worst end of the low dps are the casuals and other low dps.

All that being said, I really don't think there should be a a test or anything before people are able to enter vet dungeons. I just wish these under performing people would be less selfish and more competent in their chosen roles before deciding to try to tackle vet dungeons. I wish they would be willing to improve and hold their own weight. I wish they would realize that there are 3 other people in the group, and everyone equally deserves to have a good time, so that means being prepared, knowledgeable, and willing to let others know if it's their first time in the dungeon if it's the case. It doesn't take a massive amount of effort to change from a bad dps to a good dps, but it does take some effort, and for some people apparently that is too much to ask, which is a shame.

jaschacasadiob16_ESO · August 2018

They don't want to neither tank or heal, but can't dps either.
They should allow people to queue up as non-combat pet, essentially.

Fishoscandi · August 2018

The easy way out

JinMori · August 2018

Facefister wrote: »

Nova Sky wrote: »

*whistles* Whew. Look at all of the elitists in this thread. Wow. *sigh* It's just too bad your numbers are so small — see what I did there, your numbers are so SMALL — that Zeni will never take this idea seriously.

Why? Because there wouldn't be enough elitists to cover Zeni's bills — let alone generate a profit for them — after such a policy chased away far more players, along with their money, than it would attract.

I think the only game that really thrives on elitists is Eve Online, and that game has, well, a reputation for toxicity (among other things, including awesome trailers that don't match reality).

Anyway, long story short, it'll never happen. Bad business economics.

Noone forces anyone to better themselves. But don't get mad when you're getting kicked out for underperforming with your "unique build"

I find it ironic that he gets 0 likes, while you get 6, but he's supposed to be the majority. Lol.

Wit that said, i agree with you, if you are not performing to a level sufficient to complete the content, then it's perfectly reasonable to expect a kick, and people call this elitism..... i call it, the logical and most correct course of action. I mean, wtf do you think it would happen? That people constantly carry you through? While you do nothing?

This kind of mentality really gets on my nerves, well i payed for the game, so i should be able to do whatever the hell i want, and you have no say in it, so carry my butt through, how about this, you pull your weight, i also do that, everyone is happy, this would seem to be the most logical thing to do right?

Well, it seems not for some people, some people think that they have the right, that they are entitled to waste other people time and patience and resources because they don't wanna put 1 or 2 hours learning the basics of their class.

This really pisses me off.

Inarre · August 2018

idk wrote: »

abelsgmx wrote: »

ZoS may you improve a DPS minimun damage requirement for vet dungeons please? In my last dungeon (vWS1) I was doing 47% of the group damage as a Frost Warden Tank, the annoying think i that all want to be a DPS when not all are, the role of a DPS is do damage no kiss the mobs. 10 minutes to kill the second boss. Or at least remove the quiter punishment in this situations.

First of all, if you were doing 47% of the damage as a tank you were not built as a tank. Even with the worst DPS I have seen I have not come close to that though any means when on a true tank.

Everyone saying this is forgetting that percentage depends on the whole. 47 percent is completely possible on a tank if the entire teams damage is 30k.

Yes, I absolutely have seen this. If you haven't seen total dps this low you haven't met magic sorc hard casting crystal frags and bow sniping or cp 200 dps that actually don't know how to aim their camera so their light attacks are hitting the boss.

abelsgmx · August 2018

jaschacasadiob16_ESO wrote: »

They don't want to neither tank or heal, but can't dps either.
They should allow people to queue up as non-combat pet, essentially.

lol

LeagueTroll · August 2018

CyberSkooma wrote: »

xeNNNNN wrote: »

Yeah no 30k-40k for me is honestly where most people should be at in terms of general population (This is of course for DDs and not tanks and healers lol) so I have no expectations of people generally when it comes to dps so long as they can pull their weight, anything higher than 42k is for over achievers lol

30-40k for the GENERAL POPULATION? Are you serious? 30k is more than 95% of players will ever hit, whether or not you want to admit it. And that last 5% of players hitting 30 and over is still a lot of people.

Not everybody runs content requiring that DPS, nor will they ever. Not everybody even attempts basic vet content. Now, to people attempting it that are low hitting, you can just say that they are ignorant of their class. That's fine, but it again comes down to the fact that you can simply find a premade group in a guild with people who know what they're doing, and stop joining up with randoms. It's not hard. There's no real issue here.

Lol. Pretty much 1 in 4-5 dd i get from que is 30k+. 30k don’t put you top 5% anymore. Honestly it’s about 25th percentile from what i see. With all the cr gear, 25k is now my expectation from a que dd now.

Qualanthar · August 2018

Threads like this are what terrify me about even attempting dungeons in this game unless I go with a guild, and even then, I suspect I need to gear up first.

I just hit 50 for the first time and my gear is still sub 50. I downloaded the combat metrics add on last night and I think it is saying that my DPS is sub 5k.

I mean I realize that I have the wrong morphs, don't really get how to "weave", use unideal skills (cause I am still levelling them) but the distance between 5k and 20k seems something quite overwhelming.

So maybe dungeons aren't the content for someone like me and that's ok. I just wanted to provide you with this perspective.

LeagueTroll · August 2018

Girl_Number8 wrote: »

abelsgmx wrote: »

ZoS may you improve a DPS minimun damage requirement for vet dungeons please? In my last dungeon (vWS1) I was doing 47% of the group damage as a Frost Warden Tank, the annoying think i that all want to be a DPS when not all are, the role of a DPS is do damage no kiss the mobs. 10 minutes to kill the second boss. Or at least remove the quiter punishment in this situations.

Yeapers, join a guild and then you will have friends to go through all the dungeons you want and they should meet your standards~

I remember when i just started. Those guild basically saying, ‘you are a newbie healer anyways, why you expect elite dps from others.’ Yeah, i had way better luck getting elite dd from trade guild. Carried me mazz hm back when it was new. Honestly those low end pve guild is full of free loaders.

zaria · August 2018

Fishoscandi wrote: »

The easy way out

This one heals. Seriously, back after I returned I started looking at builds around cp200 this was 1.5 years ago.
Templar had an easy rotation and good self heals so I focused on my templar who did 11K something, an better rotation with animation canceling and I got up to 15, my problem was that single target dps did not change if I just used sweep or an complex rotation as sweep was so strong. Even tested this with an macro, spamming dark flare took me to 18K who was better than the complex one, note that this was using macro so my skill was not an factor.
Had to heal in an dungeon as I replaced an healer who left, continued healing, dungeon queues are also shorter

templar has no DD gear but has healed all vet dlc outside the two new ones.

LeagueTroll · August 2018

Fishoscandi wrote: »

The easy way out

Oh come on. As a tank main. Tank is actually fun. Especially in high end pve.

Swomp23 · August 2018

Qualanthar wrote: »

Threads like this are what terrify me about even attempting dungeons in this game unless I go with a guild, and even then, I suspect I need to gear up first.

I just hit 50 for the first time and my gear is still sub 50. I downloaded the combat metrics add on last night and I think it is saying that my DPS is sub 5k.

I mean I realize that I have the wrong morphs, don't really get how to "weave", use unideal skills (cause I am still levelling them) but the distance between 5k and 20k seems something quite overwhelming.

So maybe dungeons aren't the content for someone like me and that's ok. I just wanted to provide you with this perspective.

Hey, welcome to the game! The thread here talks about VETERAN dungeons. It is a harder version of the normal dungeons that shouldn't be attempted if you just reached lvl 50. I personnally started them around 200 cp and got my ass handed to me a couple times.

But you should not be terrified AT ALL to attempt a normal dungeon. They are designed for people under 50. It is a great way to learn this aspect of the game, while providing a huge exp chunk every day by doing 1 random dungeon (under Activity finder, dungeons, random dungeon).

5k ds is a little low, but shouldn't prevent you from completing a base-game normal dungeon. At the same time you try them, go check some youtube videos or written guides about good skills vs bad skills, builds, rotations and weaving. With time, your dps will sky-rocket.

MasterSpatula · August 2018

This thread makes me want to uninstall. It just makes me weary and really unfond of the prevailing mentality.

Drdeath20 · August 2018

Vet dlcs need their own que for dungeon finder. I dont blame CP 269 guy for trying to damage deal vet dungeons but when it comes to dlc stuff you really need that damage mitigation, recovery and power that a couple hundred CPs will provide.

bloodthirstyvampire · August 2018

As long as you ain't dying I Don't care if It's 5k

karekiz · August 2018

I would be ok if you wanted to que for DLC content as a role you must complete:

Tank test
Heal Test
DPS test

Tanks - must CC and taunt adds off DPS that spawn mid fight. Tank must move and keep all mobs taunted to spots. Block one shot mechanics. If any of your AI party members die to adds - you fail.

Heal test - Heal players, more AoE dmg the further in the test. If any of the AI allies die you fail.

DPS test - Have to Clear a pack of mobs to spawn boss. Then damage the boss while avoiding one shot AoE mechanics <Test dummies don't mean anything>. If you get tagged by one AoE/fail AoE and single target DPS check <15K> you fail.

This would be per character not account wide.

Valrien · August 2018

bloodthirstyvampire wrote: »

As long as you ain't dying I Don't care if It's 5k

They're usually gonna be the ones dying but okay

Drdeath20 · August 2018

Heal test- have 3 AI whose health is constantly slowly draining. Tank AI is taking big hits every now and then. Must keep them alive for 10 mins. Also must throw out resources to tank on demand and avoid standing in stupid and being 1 shotted.

Mettaricana · August 2018

Im just tired of cp 400 dps weapons light medium heavy incomplete sets playing like they just left coldharbor in the tutorial