Minimun damage requirement for DPS role in vet dungeons

zaria · August 2018

Drdeath20 wrote: »

LordSarevok wrote: »

I'm telling you! Licensing tests for all veteran content would help a lot! Just like good old Gran Turismo licensing tests. It needs to be a solo gauntlet that certifies you as a role.

Tanking it will be about absorbing damage, avoiding one shots, bar swap mechanics, bash/interrupts, mob placement, debuffs, pulling mobs inside AoE's, and resource management.

Dps certification, don't stand in stupid, don't stand behind the tank, bash/interrupts, mob priorities, pull at least 20k dps for vet content, 25 for vet dlc, 30 vet trials, 35k vet HM dlc/trials, and self sustain.

Don't play healer so wouldn't have valid input.

A vet dlc Healer needs to:

keep rapid regen 100% uptime on group in battle.
Have either orbs or shards available for group.
A oh shoot heal synergy
Have combat prayer or some other kind of big heal
Do atleast 20k dps with ultimates

Agree on all except 20k dps, that is the DD requirement most agree on. Note that you can increase dps if group don't need much healing, also if grouped with good DD warhorn is better ultimate.

Splattercat_83 · August 2018

Glurin wrote: »

Splattercat_83 wrote: »

erliesc wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

Facefister wrote: »

You can be sure about that your 10k ps dd dies way more often than that guy who is steadily pulling off 40k+ dps

Maybe. On the other hand I've had personal experience with ultra high DPS players who die rather quickly after the pull and spend most of their time berating the rest of the party for not "playing correctly". Meanwhile the fellow with sub-par DPS is still alive and doing much more overall damage than the elitist because he doesn't get blown away by a stiff breeze. Actually, even the healer and the tank are doing more damage. Because they aren't dead.

I've heard comments that 16K health is good enough...I find that starting at at least 20K keeps you in the battle. This was the problem with most of my characters...health was too low.

16 health is more than enough if you know mechanics and where damage is coming from. If you dont then that number needs to be around 19-20k

Well yeah, if you know the mechanics and where the damage is coming from and can successfully avoid it 100% of the time, 16 points of health is more than you'll ever need.

The problem of course is when you can't avoid it 100% of the time. That's not necessarily indicative of a lack of knowledge or skill. Any number of things can go wrong. Lag, bugs, a poorly timed sneeze, cats... Hell, maybe you just goofed and hit the wrong button. Stuff happens. It doesn't hurt to have a buffer in place to help mitigate the impact it can have.

That only matters if you're going for a no death run. If someone is constantly wiping especially in a vet dungeon with 16k health then having 20k health is not gonna help them anyway because it's definitely not a health issue.

I know the that a lag spike can happen or some other random coolness that will lead to a 1 shot and what not. I've seen it happen to tanks with 40k health, again health isn't going to prevent that either.

I'm talking about your average dungeon run and
People that keep wiping. I've got every dungeon run and HM no death (even the dlc dungeons and vet maelstrom)

I'm no super player by any means, but with a little practice and awareness it's very easily done.

LadyNalcarya · August 2018

[

Glurin wrote: »

Facefister wrote: »

xeNNNNN wrote: »

Shezzarrine wrote: »

xeNNNNN wrote: »

I only care about DPS in dungeons where the HM is a DPS race but thats it.

If theres no DPS race then it doesnt matter.

In fact moon hunter keep NEEDS to be done slowly unless your DDs have like 70k DPS each or something stupid like that otherwise you'll trigger multiple boss mechanics and get wiped as a result. So having a minimum DPS requirement would just be toxic tbh especially when they're intentionally slowing down dungeons even hardmodes like that.

Though I will admit the wardens (lightning mages or w/e) are a small DPS race but so long as there are never 3 up at once everything is fine tbh.

and just FYI 30k-40k DPS is more than enough for nearly all content baring Trial HMs.

Yes 30-40k is more than sufficient for any dungeon, but that's not what we are talking about here. You may consider that low dps, which is more or less true for end game, but we are talking low dps as sub-15k.

I honestly don't think I've ever had more than one or two pugs pulling in that 30-40k range. This is one reason why there are so few tanks and heals in queues (other than it being a less desirable role to most people) it's that they don't want to spend 50 min in an otherwise 10 min dungeon. Let alone vDLC where even if there isn't a dps check the fights can be much harder on ta ks and heals the longer they go on, when mistakes start to mount.

I don't believe dps requirements are the way to solve this, but can we at least acknowledge this as a problem?

Yeah no 30k-40k for me is honestly where most people should be at in terms of general population (This is of course for DDs and not tanks and healers lol) so I have no expectations of people generally when it comes to dps so long as they can pull their weight, anything higher than 42k is for over achievers lol

Yeah its totally fine to acknowledge the problem and I agree but if we do nothing with it then its pointless. Right now as far as I can see putting another barrier on the content would just be bad for new players and the player base generally (as you probably agree), My issue with all this is that instead of actually teaching new players and going out of their way to help people, they instead want to just block people who dont know any better from doing the content which imo is elitist as hell.

Acknowledge the problem fine, but we should teach those who have lower DPS how to be better. More people need to do this instead of just kicking them from group finder, ADD THEM and HELP them. I do it all the time when someone asks in chat or when we get a random running with our usual group. Always help them. Its the only way to reduce the problem of people joining with virtually no DPS.

The problem with low dps people are that they're so ignorant. They don't want to listen - They'll rather seek an excuse to blame you than better themselves.
"You're a meta slave!"
"But do you survive longer than 12 seconds?"

It's the high DPS people who show ignorance and stubbornness more often. Why? Because they think they know everything already. They don't think they can make any mistakes because "look at muh deeps!" Those low dps people know they are low dps and are usually willing to improve. As long as you're not being an *** about it anyway. Instead of yelling at them or telling them what to do and trying to get them to completely rebuild their character from scratch, try offering suggestions that are applicable to what they seem to be going for.

People who have high dps were willing to improve in the first place, that's how they reached their "deeps".

I agree that no one should be shouted at or harassed - this is a toxic behavior and it should be reported, but a lot of low dps players are sitting at low dps because they dont really want to improve. Or because their hatred towards meta outweighs common sense.
Honestly, reading this got me thinking. The difference between a newbie/"non-meta" dd and fully geared "meta" dd is absolutely insane, even at the same cp rank top dds are pulling almost 10 times more than those with low dps. I think it would be nice if ZOS would raise the bottom level of dps and add more dps tutorials (well, at least they could've explained the concept of rotation and other basic things).

LadyNalcarya · August 2018

Drdeath20 wrote: »

LordSarevok wrote: »

I'm telling you! Licensing tests for all veteran content would help a lot! Just like good old Gran Turismo licensing tests. It needs to be a solo gauntlet that certifies you as a role.

Tanking it will be about absorbing damage, avoiding one shots, bar swap mechanics, bash/interrupts, mob placement, debuffs, pulling mobs inside AoE's, and resource management.

Dps certification, don't stand in stupid, don't stand behind the tank, bash/interrupts, mob priorities, pull at least 20k dps for vet content, 25 for vet dlc, 30 vet trials, 35k vet HM dlc/trials, and self sustain.

Don't play healer so wouldn't have valid input.

A vet dlc Healer needs to:

keep rapid regen 100% uptime on group in battle.
Have either orbs or shards available for group.
A oh shoot heal synergy
Have combat prayer or some other kind of big heal
Do atleast 20k dps with ultimates

Vet dlc "healer" is often a magblade dd so those buff uptimes arent really applicable.
They do more than 20k tho.

Girl_Number8 · August 2018

abelsgmx wrote: »

ZoS may you improve a DPS minimun damage requirement for vet dungeons please? In my last dungeon (vWS1) I was doing 47% of the group damage as a Frost Warden Tank, the annoying think i that all want to be a DPS when not all are, the role of a DPS is do damage no kiss the mobs. 10 minutes to kill the second boss. Or at least remove the quiter punishment in this situations.

Yeapers, join a guild and then you will have friends to go through all the dungeons you want and they should meet your standards~

Aurielle · August 2018

Jeremy wrote: »

Valrien wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Valrien wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Facefister wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

abelsgmx wrote: »

ZoS may you improve a DPS minimun damage requirement for vet dungeons please? In my last dungeon (vWS1) I was doing 47% of the group damage as a Frost Warden Tank, the annoying think i that all want to be a DPS when not all are, the role of a DPS is do damage no kiss the mobs. 10 minutes to kill the second boss. Or at least remove the quiter punishment in this situations.

If you think taking 10 minutes to kill a boss is bad it's a good thing you didn't play online RPGs back in the old days when they could take hours.

Apples and Styrofoam Oranges. Backthen everything was an endless grind. Gear was an endless grind, items were an endless grind, leveling was an endless grind. And I am not talking about killing 10 wolves.

My post had nothing to do with apples and styrofoam oranges.

I wasn't trying to compare this game to older MMORPGs anyway. I was doing the opposite in fact - and pointing out how different they are. On those games, a 10 minute boss fight wouldn't have been anything to complain about. So for someone with my perspective - it's kind of amusing to watch players bemoan 10 minutes as if that's a long time to fight a boss.

And for this game, it is.

Your mindset has absolutely nothing to do with this. If 10 minutes was average for you, youd have been angry if your fight took half an hour...

Same principal. I generally dislike gamers that think they are superior because they're "old school"

I don't know what I said that makes you think I believe I'm "superior". You simply made that part of up - because I never said any such thing.

I just think it's funny how drastically MMORPGs have changed over my life time - where 10 minutes has now turned into a player's idea of an excessively long boss fight. Back in the old days 10 minutes could have been a trash pull.

But that's ok if you "dislike" me because of that. I"ll try not to let that hurt my feelings.

Well when you say things like that it brings to mind the "Back in my day, we used to walk uphill both ways in the snow to get to school" types that think that they are instantly better than you because of it.

May not necessarily be you, but those people exist and their posts are VERY reminiscent of yours

I fail to see how reminiscing about the past means a person is trying to come across as your superior. It might be you are just a bit too touchy on this subject.

As I explained - it's more about sharing a different perspective. Because someone who was used to hour long boss fights on MMORPGs is probably going to find it amusing when they see 10 minutes being used to describe a long boss fight on one. Just as someone who had to walk through miles of snow to get to school might find it funny to listen to those complaining about a 10 minute drive.

It's just a matter of perspective. That's all. I doubt it has anything to do with trying to be your superior.

It’s all relative. I’m an “old-school” MMO player who remembers signing up for stupidly long multi-part raids. If a three hour raid ended up taking four hours because the DDs were terrible at their roles, I complained just as bitterly as I would if I were tanking a vet FG1 that took thirty minutes to complete.

Splattercat_83 · August 2018

xeNNNNN wrote: »

I only care about DPS in dungeons where the HM is a DPS race but thats it.

If theres no DPS race then it doesnt matter.

In fact moon hunter keep NEEDS to be done slowly unless your DDs have like 70k DPS each or something stupid like that otherwise you'll trigger multiple boss mechanics and get wiped as a result. So having a minimum DPS requirement would just be toxic tbh especially when they're intentionally slowing down dungeons even hardmodes like that.

Though I will admit the wardens (lightning mages or w/e) are a small DPS race but so long as there are never 3 up at once everything is fine tbh.

and just FYI 30k-40k DPS is more than enough for nearly all content baring Trial HMs.

Was in vet Faulk death and we kept getting wiped. I didn't know why it clicked after we had 2 sets of addsn a ring of fire with crystals, then bam a scream before we could get behind a pillar. We did too fast of a burn.

Glurin · August 2018

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

[

Glurin wrote: »

Facefister wrote: »

xeNNNNN wrote: »

Shezzarrine wrote: »

xeNNNNN wrote: »

I only care about DPS in dungeons where the HM is a DPS race but thats it.

If theres no DPS race then it doesnt matter.

In fact moon hunter keep NEEDS to be done slowly unless your DDs have like 70k DPS each or something stupid like that otherwise you'll trigger multiple boss mechanics and get wiped as a result. So having a minimum DPS requirement would just be toxic tbh especially when they're intentionally slowing down dungeons even hardmodes like that.

Though I will admit the wardens (lightning mages or w/e) are a small DPS race but so long as there are never 3 up at once everything is fine tbh.

and just FYI 30k-40k DPS is more than enough for nearly all content baring Trial HMs.

Yes 30-40k is more than sufficient for any dungeon, but that's not what we are talking about here. You may consider that low dps, which is more or less true for end game, but we are talking low dps as sub-15k.

I honestly don't think I've ever had more than one or two pugs pulling in that 30-40k range. This is one reason why there are so few tanks and heals in queues (other than it being a less desirable role to most people) it's that they don't want to spend 50 min in an otherwise 10 min dungeon. Let alone vDLC where even if there isn't a dps check the fights can be much harder on ta ks and heals the longer they go on, when mistakes start to mount.

I don't believe dps requirements are the way to solve this, but can we at least acknowledge this as a problem?

Yeah no 30k-40k for me is honestly where most people should be at in terms of general population (This is of course for DDs and not tanks and healers lol) so I have no expectations of people generally when it comes to dps so long as they can pull their weight, anything higher than 42k is for over achievers lol

Yeah its totally fine to acknowledge the problem and I agree but if we do nothing with it then its pointless. Right now as far as I can see putting another barrier on the content would just be bad for new players and the player base generally (as you probably agree), My issue with all this is that instead of actually teaching new players and going out of their way to help people, they instead want to just block people who dont know any better from doing the content which imo is elitist as hell.

Acknowledge the problem fine, but we should teach those who have lower DPS how to be better. More people need to do this instead of just kicking them from group finder, ADD THEM and HELP them. I do it all the time when someone asks in chat or when we get a random running with our usual group. Always help them. Its the only way to reduce the problem of people joining with virtually no DPS.

The problem with low dps people are that they're so ignorant. They don't want to listen - They'll rather seek an excuse to blame you than better themselves.
"You're a meta slave!"
"But do you survive longer than 12 seconds?"

It's the high DPS people who show ignorance and stubbornness more often. Why? Because they think they know everything already. They don't think they can make any mistakes because "look at muh deeps!" Those low dps people know they are low dps and are usually willing to improve. As long as you're not being an *** about it anyway. Instead of yelling at them or telling them what to do and trying to get them to completely rebuild their character from scratch, try offering suggestions that are applicable to what they seem to be going for.

People who have high dps were willing to improve in the first place, that's how they reached their "deeps".

Eh, yes and no. It's more like watching someone who is obsessed with winning to the point that he's compromising his integrity. Like say, someone really wants to improve their time on the racetrack so badly that they start taking shortcuts and using illegal modifications to their vehicle. They'll get a better time, sure, but can you really say they improved?

People get so obsessed with maxing out their damage meter that they forget that the role of a DPS really isn't just about the damage meter. I know that sounds counter intuitive, but it's true. Just like being a firefighter isn't just about putting out house fires, or being a being a heart surgeon isn't just about cutting people's hearts out.

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

Honestly, reading this got me thinking. The difference between a newbie/"non-meta" dd and fully geared "meta" dd is absolutely insane, even at the same cp rank top dds are pulling almost 10 times more than those with low dps. I think it would be nice if ZOS would raise the bottom level of dps and add more dps tutorials (well, at least they could've explained the concept of rotation and other basic things).

I can get behind that to a degree, though you might also consider that the opposite approach might also be warranted. Nerf the effectiveness of certain combinations so that the difference isn't quite so drastic.

LadyNalcarya · August 2018

Glurin wrote: »

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

[

Glurin wrote: »

Facefister wrote: »

xeNNNNN wrote: »

Shezzarrine wrote: »

xeNNNNN wrote: »

I only care about DPS in dungeons where the HM is a DPS race but thats it.

If theres no DPS race then it doesnt matter.

In fact moon hunter keep NEEDS to be done slowly unless your DDs have like 70k DPS each or something stupid like that otherwise you'll trigger multiple boss mechanics and get wiped as a result. So having a minimum DPS requirement would just be toxic tbh especially when they're intentionally slowing down dungeons even hardmodes like that.

Though I will admit the wardens (lightning mages or w/e) are a small DPS race but so long as there are never 3 up at once everything is fine tbh.

and just FYI 30k-40k DPS is more than enough for nearly all content baring Trial HMs.

Yes 30-40k is more than sufficient for any dungeon, but that's not what we are talking about here. You may consider that low dps, which is more or less true for end game, but we are talking low dps as sub-15k.

I honestly don't think I've ever had more than one or two pugs pulling in that 30-40k range. This is one reason why there are so few tanks and heals in queues (other than it being a less desirable role to most people) it's that they don't want to spend 50 min in an otherwise 10 min dungeon. Let alone vDLC where even if there isn't a dps check the fights can be much harder on ta ks and heals the longer they go on, when mistakes start to mount.

I don't believe dps requirements are the way to solve this, but can we at least acknowledge this as a problem?

Yeah no 30k-40k for me is honestly where most people should be at in terms of general population (This is of course for DDs and not tanks and healers lol) so I have no expectations of people generally when it comes to dps so long as they can pull their weight, anything higher than 42k is for over achievers lol

Yeah its totally fine to acknowledge the problem and I agree but if we do nothing with it then its pointless. Right now as far as I can see putting another barrier on the content would just be bad for new players and the player base generally (as you probably agree), My issue with all this is that instead of actually teaching new players and going out of their way to help people, they instead want to just block people who dont know any better from doing the content which imo is elitist as hell.

Acknowledge the problem fine, but we should teach those who have lower DPS how to be better. More people need to do this instead of just kicking them from group finder, ADD THEM and HELP them. I do it all the time when someone asks in chat or when we get a random running with our usual group. Always help them. Its the only way to reduce the problem of people joining with virtually no DPS.

The problem with low dps people are that they're so ignorant. They don't want to listen - They'll rather seek an excuse to blame you than better themselves.
"You're a meta slave!"
"But do you survive longer than 12 seconds?"

It's the high DPS people who show ignorance and stubbornness more often. Why? Because they think they know everything already. They don't think they can make any mistakes because "look at muh deeps!" Those low dps people know they are low dps and are usually willing to improve. As long as you're not being an *** about it anyway. Instead of yelling at them or telling them what to do and trying to get them to completely rebuild their character from scratch, try offering suggestions that are applicable to what they seem to be going for.

People who have high dps were willing to improve in the first place, that's how they reached their "deeps".

Eh, yes and no. It's more like watching someone who is obsessed with winning to the point that he's compromising his integrity. Like say, someone really wants to improve their time on the racetrack so badly that they start taking shortcuts and using illegal modifications to their vehicle. They'll get a better time, sure, but can you really say they improved?

People get so obsessed with maxing out their damage meter that they forget that the role of a DPS really isn't just about the damage meter. I know that sounds counter intuitive, but it's true. Just like being a firefighter isn't just about putting out house fires, or being a being a heart surgeon isn't just about cutting people's hearts out.

Eh. I'd say this is a really one-sided view. Of course, there are people who treat others like crap and would do anything to enlarge their e-peen, but these types arent strictly "meta" dds. I've seen many of those amongst low dps dds when I used to pug. Maybe that's just because I also played with actually good dds who are - what a surprise! - decent people as well (most of the time anyway). I've been raiding in ESO for a few years and I've only met a few people who were unsufferable jerks AND were good in dungeons and trials. Most of those jerks are, you know, all bark and no bite.
And yeah, maximizing your ingame performance still takes some dedication. There's no cheating required, you just need to learn your rotation and tactics.

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

Honestly, reading this got me thinking. The difference between a newbie/"non-meta" dd and fully geared "meta" dd is absolutely insane, even at the same cp rank top dds are pulling almost 10 times more than those with low dps. I think it would be nice if ZOS would raise the bottom level of dps and add more dps tutorials (well, at least they could've explained the concept of rotation and other basic things).

I can get behind that to a degree, though you might also consider that the opposite approach might also be warranted. Nerf the effectiveness of certain combinations so that the difference isn't quite so drastic.

Well yeah but the problem is, drastic nerfs usually hit average players (those who arent far enough from meta to not care but not dedicated enough to play with the most optimized groups), like that Morrowind nerf to sustain. One of the reasons why it was implemented is because top trial teams had infinite sustain and high dps.
Homestead patch (the one before Morrowind) made raiding very popular, more popular than ever before I'd say. And many average raiding guilds died in Morrowind because vHoF seemed impossible with all the resource drains on top of the heavy nerf to sustain. Top teams, on the other hand, cleared it immediately and even got the hardmode.
Moral of the story: things should be balanced around average teams and players, not the top ones.
So I think that its better to buff underperforming combinations and classes. After all, if you nerf one OP class, theorycrafters will quickly find another OP combo.

abelsgmx · August 2018

idk wrote: »

abelsgmx wrote: »

ZoS may you improve a DPS minimun damage requirement for vet dungeons please? In my last dungeon (vWS1) I was doing 47% of the group damage as a Frost Warden Tank, the annoying think i that all want to be a DPS when not all are, the role of a DPS is do damage no kiss the mobs. 10 minutes to kill the second boss. Or at least remove the quiter punishment in this situations.

First of all, if you were doing 47% of the damage as a tank you were not built as a tank. Even with the worst DPS I have seen I have not come close to that though any means when on a true tank. That is why I usually do not queue solo for GF on a true tank. Usually queue on a DPS as a tank.

Second, the answer to your request is no. Zos gives us the choice to form groups ourselves. Guilds are great for this and Zone is often a good choice as well. There is no excuse to not form ones group. It takes me much less effort than it would to create this thread.

1. Then my 33k both resistances and 40k health is a not tank build?
2. Not all the time there are guild mates ready to do the dungeons

abelsgmx · August 2018

Girl_Number8 wrote: »

abelsgmx wrote: »

ZoS may you improve a DPS minimun damage requirement for vet dungeons please? In my last dungeon (vWS1) I was doing 47% of the group damage as a Frost Warden Tank, the annoying think i that all want to be a DPS when not all are, the role of a DPS is do damage no kiss the mobs. 10 minutes to kill the second boss. Or at least remove the quiter punishment in this situations.

Yeapers, join a guild and then you will have friends to go through all the dungeons you want and they should meet your standards~

They are not only my standards...

idk · August 2018

SquareSausage wrote: »

idk wrote: »

SquareSausage wrote: »

Grouped into a vet BC2 today and i can attest to my tank doing 50% damage, the bosses' health bar was dropping under 4k a sec, it was so bad. I had frost wall and engulfing flames up and standard as when ready. One DPS was so scared of fighting he was running away from the adds and resetting the fight constantly on Keeper Imiril when he dissapears and summons adds and then respawns after a short duration. We had banekin, matriarchs, clanfears and boss all up at once for most of the fight.

failed final boss as they couldnt kill behemoths or orbs that heal the boss in time, wasnt even a pledge. Had to quit.

If your tank is doing 50% or the group damage either the group damage is 4K or your tank is setup as a dps.

As I said I was doing 50% of damage with frost wall and engulfing flames for about 2k dps, the healer was trying his hardest to keep the other 2 dps alive who were standing infront of behemoth breath or in the blue fire, the other 2 dps I cant say exactly what they were doing, more likely panicking.

The thing is poor DPS players are usually those who are not very good at game mechanics, or slow reflexes, stubborn, or all of the above and some more. Which all add up to give a terrible outcome in group content.

People saying 50k dps but dies a lot, or 5k dps but never dies on a DD is deluded.

The 50k dps guy will know mechanics inside out, provide aoe and have a shield and/or self heal and can prob solo the dungeon.

The 5k dps will have poor dps, no mechanics understanding, poor response time, gets flustered easy and dies all the time.

First of all, the 50k dps guys are not always good with mechanics. Some need to change their name to SirDiesALot. Granted, they are often better than a new player.

Second, I really cannot see a duo of dps doing only 2k dps total in a vet dungeon. Light attacks do more than that and this thread is about vet dungeons. In the rare case you got 2 dps that fell asleep, maybe but I have never found and vet group as bad as you are suggesting. In normal I have seen sub 10k total a few times.

Facefister · August 2018

Even if your DD doesn't ignore mechanic, the reason why he pulls such high DPS i

idk wrote: »

SquareSausage wrote: »

idk wrote: »

SquareSausage wrote: »

Grouped into a vet BC2 today and i can attest to my tank doing 50% damage, the bosses' health bar was dropping under 4k a sec, it was so bad. I had frost wall and engulfing flames up and standard as when ready. One DPS was so scared of fighting he was running away from the adds and resetting the fight constantly on Keeper Imiril when he dissapears and summons adds and then respawns after a short duration. We had banekin, matriarchs, clanfears and boss all up at once for most of the fight.

failed final boss as they couldnt kill behemoths or orbs that heal the boss in time, wasnt even a pledge. Had to quit.

If your tank is doing 50% or the group damage either the group damage is 4K or your tank is setup as a dps.

As I said I was doing 50% of damage with frost wall and engulfing flames for about 2k dps, the healer was trying his hardest to keep the other 2 dps alive who were standing infront of behemoth breath or in the blue fire, the other 2 dps I cant say exactly what they were doing, more likely panicking.

The thing is poor DPS players are usually those who are not very good at game mechanics, or slow reflexes, stubborn, or all of the above and some more. Which all add up to give a terrible outcome in group content.

People saying 50k dps but dies a lot, or 5k dps but never dies on a DD is deluded.

The 50k dps guy will know mechanics inside out, provide aoe and have a shield and/or self heal and can prob solo the dungeon.

The 5k dps will have poor dps, no mechanics understanding, poor response time, gets flustered easy and dies all the time.

First of all, the 50k dps guys are not always good with mechanics. Some need to change their name to SirDiesALot. Granted, they are often better than a new player.

Second, I really cannot see a duo of dps doing only 2k dps total in a vet dungeon. Light attacks do more than that and this thread is about vet dungeons. In the rare case you got 2 dps that fell asleep, maybe but I have never found and vet group as bad as you are suggesting. In normal I have seen sub 10k total a few times.

"High DPS DDs die alot!"-post again.
"2k dps total in a vet dungeon" had them yesterday on Spindle1 vet hm. Those were your "10k dps" guys who died on every cast of the last boss, they both had a combined dps of roughly 4k.

Odnoc · August 2018

Don’t use random if you want to set requirements. I don’t play meta, I’ve never had an issue finishing a dungeon, and I’m usually the one doing the rezzing for the metas.

Jaraal · August 2018

Guppet wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

abelsgmx wrote: »

ZoS may you improve a DPS minimun damage requirement for vet dungeons please? In my last dungeon (vWS1) I was doing 47% of the group damage as a Frost Warden Tank, the annoying think i that all want to be a DPS when not all are, the role of a DPS is do damage no kiss the mobs. 10 minutes to kill the second boss. Or at least remove the quiter punishment in this situations.

I have a perfect solution. Make monster helmets drop in normal.

Yep, this is the main reason people who are not fully vet ready, step into vet dungeons. Drop blue helms in normal and average quality of people queuing for vet dungeons would sky rocket.

OTOH, that would make the good players solo (almost) every dungeon on normal and just upgrade the helmets. The quality of the vet PUGs would actually decrease, rather than improve.

AbysmalGhul · August 2018

raj72616a wrote: »

AbysmalGhul wrote: »

I care about people's DPS numbers just about as much as I care about their credit scores or 3rd grade report card. But Maaaaan! If you just heavy attack or bow light attack spam, you're dead to me.

what if he's optimized for a light attack build, with kena bloodmoon relequen, and does 35k dps with just light attack spam?

Then they are still dead to me! Dead dead dead deaaaaaad! 35k light attack build? Call me!

abelsgmx · August 2018

Jaraal wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

I have a perfect solution. Make monster helmets drop in normal.

Yep, this is the main reason people who are not fully vet ready, step into vet dungeons. Drop blue helms in normal and average quality of people queuing for vet dungeons would sky rocket.

OTOH, that would make the good players solo (almost) every dungeon on normal and just upgrade the helmets. The quality of the vet PUGs would actually decrease, rather than improve.[/quote]

I agree with this guy, superior (blue) monster helm in normal mode dungeons and all happy.

Shezzarrine · August 2018

Odnoc wrote: »

Don’t use random if you want to set requirements. I don’t play meta, I’ve never had an issue finishing a dungeon, and I’m usually the one doing the rezzing for the metas.

It's not about meta, it's about holding your own. Yes, generally meta players pull higher damage, but you don't have to run meta to get acceptable numbers

Back to yourbolded point, if I expect the tank to have a taunt and be able to survive, the healers to heal us and keep us alive, then I am absolutely allowed to desire DPS who accually do their job, which is to dps.

idk · August 2018

Facefister wrote: »

Even if your DD doesn't ignore mechanic, the reason why he pulls such high DPS i

idk wrote: »

SquareSausage wrote: »

idk wrote: »

SquareSausage wrote: »

Grouped into a vet BC2 today and i can attest to my tank doing 50% damage, the bosses' health bar was dropping under 4k a sec, it was so bad. I had frost wall and engulfing flames up and standard as when ready. One DPS was so scared of fighting he was running away from the adds and resetting the fight constantly on Keeper Imiril when he dissapears and summons adds and then respawns after a short duration. We had banekin, matriarchs, clanfears and boss all up at once for most of the fight.

failed final boss as they couldnt kill behemoths or orbs that heal the boss in time, wasnt even a pledge. Had to quit.

If your tank is doing 50% or the group damage either the group damage is 4K or your tank is setup as a dps.

As I said I was doing 50% of damage with frost wall and engulfing flames for about 2k dps, the healer was trying his hardest to keep the other 2 dps alive who were standing infront of behemoth breath or in the blue fire, the other 2 dps I cant say exactly what they were doing, more likely panicking.

The thing is poor DPS players are usually those who are not very good at game mechanics, or slow reflexes, stubborn, or all of the above and some more. Which all add up to give a terrible outcome in group content.

People saying 50k dps but dies a lot, or 5k dps but never dies on a DD is deluded.

The 50k dps guy will know mechanics inside out, provide aoe and have a shield and/or self heal and can prob solo the dungeon.

The 5k dps will have poor dps, no mechanics understanding, poor response time, gets flustered easy and dies all the time.

First of all, the 50k dps guys are not always good with mechanics. Some need to change their name to SirDiesALot. Granted, they are often better than a new player.

Second, I really cannot see a duo of dps doing only 2k dps total in a vet dungeon. Light attacks do more than that and this thread is about vet dungeons. In the rare case you got 2 dps that fell asleep, maybe but I have never found and vet group as bad as you are suggesting. In normal I have seen sub 10k total a few times.

"High DPS DDs die alot!"-post again.
"2k dps total in a vet dungeon" had them yesterday on Spindle1 vet hm. Those were your "10k dps" guys who died on every cast of the last boss, they both had a combined dps of roughly 4k.

You simply have the worst luck ever. Then again it’s why most decent tanks are smart enough to not use GF to form the entire group. They have a good guild to draw from.

Regardless, Zos will not implement a dps requirement. It’s really that simple. It just won’t hapoen. Form your own group is the only way you’ll get the dps you want.

LadyNalcarya · August 2018

There's one thing I dont get. What causes all this meta hatred? Meta is simply something that works the best.
For example, it would be really strange to avoid buying the best products just because they are too good and too many people are buying them. Its understandable if you dont like the product, but not buying it just because its popular seems kinda weird.
I mean, I can see if someone just likes to play warden ice mage or some other nonmeta build and doesnt want to swap it for a meta magblade, but purposefully gimping yourself just to separate yourself from "those meta pricks"? What's the point?

I also dont undestand how someone can pull high dps AND die all the time. How's that possible? I'm not trolling, I mean... It's just mathematically impossible. It's not like your dps meter stops when you die and it's not like anyone would think that you're a good dd if you can only kill a dummy. It's not even meta... Current meta actually encourages survivability, that's why there's so many magblades on the leaderboards.

Agenericname · August 2018

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

There's one thing I dont get. What causes all this meta hatred? Meta is simply something that works the best.
For example, it would be really strange to avoid buying the best products just because they are too good and too many people are buying them. Its understandable if you dont like the product, but not buying it just because its popular seems kinda weird.
I mean, I can see if someone just likes to play warden ice mage or some other nonmeta build and doesnt want to swap it for a meta magblade, but purposefully gimping yourself just to separate yourself from "those meta pricks"? What's the point?

I also dont undestand how someone can pull high dps AND die all the time. How's that possible? I'm not trolling, I mean... It's just mathematically impossible.

Personally I've never heard or seen "meta" used as a pejorative outside of the forums. In fact, my experience as a whole doesn't mirror much of this at all. For that I am thankful.

"Best" is subjective. A build may have the most DPS mathematically possible and still not he considered the best. There will always be a build that has the most DPS, that much can't he argued. Whether or not it's the best? One becomes better or best if your goal is the most DPS.

Personally I like having a little DPS. I like the 2 characters that I play more though. It's not spite. It's simply a different choice and generally isnt an issue. It only becomes one when I'm told what I should play. That's yet to happen though. I'm either really lucky or live in a bubble.

I really havent found "high DPS" players to be the whiners as far as a demographic goes. They seem to be a little less common than the "everyone does 40k" narrative, but the ones I've encountered are often pretty easy going. I havent found that they die more often either.

To the point, I'd be against a DPS requirement for Vet dungeons. That's a slippery slope.

Odnoc · August 2018

Shezzarrine wrote: »

Odnoc wrote: »

Don’t use random if you want to set requirements. I don’t play meta, I’ve never had an issue finishing a dungeon, and I’m usually the one doing the rezzing for the metas.

It's not about meta, it's about holding your own. Yes, generally meta players pull higher damage, but you don't have to run meta to get acceptable numbers

Back to yourbolded point, if I expect the tank to have a taunt and be able to survive, the healers to heal us and keep us alive, then I am absolutely allowed to desire DPS who accually do their job, which is to dps.

Emphasis on "set" requirements. Meaning, if you want to dictate what they are doing. Yeah, lower dps may take a little longer to kill a boss, but there are very few dps checks in dungeons in this game, certainly not any that require 30k dps.

Nova Sky · August 2018

*whistles* Whew. Look at all of the elitists in this thread. Wow. *sigh* It's just too bad your numbers are so small — see what I did there, your numbers are so SMALL — that Zeni will never take this idea seriously.

Why? Because there wouldn't be enough elitists to cover Zeni's bills — let alone generate a profit for them — after such a policy chased away far more players, along with their money, than it would attract.

I think the only game that really thrives on elitists is Eve Online, and that game has, well, a reputation for toxicity (among other things, including awesome trailers that don't match reality).

Anyway, long story short, it'll never happen. Bad business economics.

Facefister · August 2018

Nova Sky wrote: »

*whistles* Whew. Look at all of the elitists in this thread. Wow. *sigh* It's just too bad your numbers are so small — see what I did there, your numbers are so SMALL — that Zeni will never take this idea seriously.

Why? Because there wouldn't be enough elitists to cover Zeni's bills — let alone generate a profit for them — after such a policy chased away far more players, along with their money, than it would attract.

I think the only game that really thrives on elitists is Eve Online, and that game has, well, a reputation for toxicity (among other things, including awesome trailers that don't match reality).

Anyway, long story short, it'll never happen. Bad business economics.

Noone forces anyone to better themselves. But don't get mad when you're getting kicked out for underperforming with your "unique build"

Oreyn_Bearclaw · August 2018

Lot's of bickering in this thread. These are some basic damage thresholds, IMO. Talking self buffed ST DPS.

20k sustained single target DPS is enough for most vet content. You will struggle with some of the Vet DLCs, especially the hard modes, but if mechanics are followed to the letter, it's all doable. Note, I am not talking about 20k on a trash pull, talking actual ST DPS sustained for at least 2-3 minutes. When I queue as a tank, the average group damage in groupfinder is somewhere between 40 and 50k, and that generally makes for a slow but relatively smooth run.

25k puts you above average, despite what people say on the forums. Healers and tanks always contribute at least some damage, and its rare I see Group DPS north of 50k in a group finder, unless I am one of the DPS. With 160 CP and crafted purple gear, a good player can hit this threshold.

30k. Is plenty for all content, up to and including vet trials. Again, some Trial HMs might be an issue. When we cleared VMOLHM way back in the day, 30k was the high end of what most of us where doing. If you arent doing 30k, simply put, you need some practice or your build needs some fundamental work.

35k. You are starting to get into the damage range for nuke strats in 4 man dungeons. A lot of mechanics can be ignored at this point. Not every raid group will necessarily take you, but you can pass any DPS check in this game.

40k. You are in the top few%. All classes can pull this off, but it takes a competent and practiced rotation with close to BIS gear. No content is out of your reach.

45K. For most classes save NB, you have your build and rotation mastered.

50K. You are an above average NB or an absolute master at your class. You dont see a lot of self buffed parses north of 50k, but they are certainly out there.

Keep in mind that all of these can go up in a good group. A mid 40's parse on a dummy is going to be north of 50k in a good group. A 10-15% damage buff from a good group is pretty common, and the best ones give you more than that.

Nova Sky · August 2018

Facefister wrote: »

Nova Sky wrote: »

*whistles* Whew. Look at all of the elitists in this thread. Wow. *sigh* It's just too bad your numbers are so small — see what I did there, your numbers are so SMALL — that Zeni will never take this idea seriously.

Why? Because there wouldn't be enough elitists to cover Zeni's bills — let alone generate a profit for them — after such a policy chased away far more players, along with their money, than it would attract.

I think the only game that really thrives on elitists is Eve Online, and that game has, well, a reputation for toxicity (among other things, including awesome trailers that don't match reality).

Anyway, long story short, it'll never happen. Bad business economics.

Noone forces anyone to better themselves. But don't get mad when you're getting kicked out for underperforming with your "unique build"

I have yet to be kicked, but thanks for assuming. There's a lot of that going around the world nowadays, it seems.

To be more specific, my issue is with "toxic elitists," those who demean others who don't "meet their expectations," and kick them from events.

For folks who simply are excellent at their craft and, even better, helpful with others looking to improve their game, more power to them.

AhPook_Is_Here · August 2018

Agenericname wrote: »

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

There's one thing I dont get. What causes all this meta hatred? Meta is simply something that works the best.
For example, it would be really strange to avoid buying the best products just because they are too good and too many people are buying them. Its understandable if you dont like the product, but not buying it just because its popular seems kinda weird.
I mean, I can see if someone just likes to play warden ice mage or some other nonmeta build and doesnt want to swap it for a meta magblade, but purposefully gimping yourself just to separate yourself from "those meta pricks"? What's the point?

I also dont undestand how someone can pull high dps AND die all the time. How's that possible? I'm not trolling, I mean... It's just mathematically impossible.

Personally I've never heard or seen "meta" used as a pejorative outside of the forums. In fact, my experience as a whole doesn't mirror much of this at all. For that I am thankful.

"Best" is subjective. A build may have the most DPS mathematically possible and still not he considered the best. There will always be a build that has the most DPS, that much can't he argued. Whether or not it's the best? One becomes better or best if your goal is the most DPS.

Personally I like having a little DPS. I like the 2 characters that I play more though. It's not spite. It's simply a different choice and generally isnt an issue. It only becomes one when I'm told what I should play. That's yet to happen though. I'm either really lucky or live in a bubble.

I really havent found "high DPS" players to be the whiners as far as a demographic goes. They seem to be a little less common than the "everyone does 40k" narrative, but the ones I've encountered are often pretty easy going. I havent found that they die more often either.

To the point, I'd be against a DPS requirement for Vet dungeons. That's a slippery slope.

I don't think your point of view is unreasonable, but you can end up with identical arguments from tanks, who might choose to only taunt bosses, or choose not to provide war-horn, fracture, breach, or maybe just decide while they like to look tanky they only snare because they find taunting demeans their honorable foe into making irrational decisions instead of facing them head on allowing them to have the opportunity to make the best choices they can and still face defeat.

Zarathustra also spake tanking is a rope bridge to what is next and not an end in itself.

So if you queue as a DD and imagine you have no responsibility to provide par-damage, you shouldn't find yourself disappointing if your tank or healer takes a more RP approach to their role.

ruikkarikun · August 2018

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Elitism
https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/pdf/10.2105/AJPH.69.5.516

LadyNalcarya · August 2018

ruikkarikun wrote: »

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Elitism
https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/pdf/10.2105/AJPH.69.5.516

No it's not. It's not unreasonable to ask people to do the job they signed up for.
Entitled low dps dds are the elitists here, actually: they deem themselves special, better than anyone else and thus they shouldnt be judged like those puny tanks and healers. The whole group should be arranged in a special way so that they can be carried through the content.
But what if their tanks or healers arent good enough? Or - god forbid! - another dd isnt strong enough to carry? Spam that "Vote kick" button, of course! It's funny how this acceptance thing only applies to bad dds. Everyone seems to bash fake healers and tanks, but dds are a holy cow of this forum it seems.

P.S. I'm not a fake tank, I'm a real healer who doesnt pug anymore because of those low dps elitists.

iiYuki · August 2018

I've seen it before and I think there should be minimum CP at least on ALL veteran dungeons, not saying CP is tied to good players but at least some of them would be gone. I've joined before and been doing over 50% of the DPS which just isn't enough on some bosses then you wipe over and over and everyone leaves wasting your and there time.