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DPS tests are dumb...change my mind
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Apache_Kid✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭no raid team in the right mind will benchmark players relative to content these days, cuz dps ceilings have already been too high for too many patches. Instead, raid teams will benchmark you relative to other players available, and rightfully so. Requiring 40k sounds ridiculous out of context until you realize thats a solid pathetic 80% at best of what mere decent players pull, and prob closer to 70% of top end players. Why should anyone tolerate your 30k dps when you're too lazy to keep up with the meta?
maybe if you're a comedian or a team therapist or something? idk but you have to ask yourself what value you bring to the group. 30k is pathetic, you following mechanics perfectly and not dying to stupid *** wont make up for that, because plenty can do all the above while maintaining 40k+
Pretty much this. What value is your 30k if others are hitting 40k or 50k and also staying alive? If your guild is full of a bunch of people hitting 30k than that is fine. If you are the lowest on the team anchoring them down then what are you really offering?1 -
gamerguy757✭✭✭✭✭Reading all of these comments I need to clear things up.
1) My group knows my DPS is only at 30k. However, they've taken me through Vet Trials and I grasp the mechanics quickly and I stay alive. So it isn't a bitter thread
2) My group wants me in their group bc of my VMA leaderboard scores that are always there (not one week has gone by where I'm not on the boards with my Warden, Sorc and Magblade)
3) They base my skill off how good I am with my toons and my knowledge on how to use them. NOT a number
The only reason I haven't tried HM on Trials is because I admit to my guild my Internet is absolute garbage for some reason and have been trying to get it fixed.1 -
Agenericname✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Look through any of the numerous "potato DD" threads asking for minimum requirements and such and people are often told to find like-minded people and form their own groups.
They did exactly that.0 -
Apache_Kid✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭gamerguy757 wrote: »Reading all of these comments I need to clear things up.
1) My group knows my DPS is only at 30k. However, they've taken me through Vet Trials and I grasp the mechanics quickly and I stay alive. So it isn't a bitter thread
2) My group wants me in their group bc of my VMA leaderboard scores that are always there (not one week has gone by where I'm not on the boards with my Warden, Sorc and Magblade)
3) They base my skill off how good I am with my toons and my knowledge on how to use them. NOT a number
The only reason I haven't tried HM on Trials is because I admit to my guild my Internet is absolute garbage for some reason and have been trying to get it fixed.
But imagine if you did all of those things, still had that knowledge, and hit 40-50K? you'd be contributing to your group even more. No reason to not try to improve other than laziness or apathy.2 -
inked1✭✭✭jaschacasadiob16_ESO wrote: »
Well, doing 40k DPS won't help if people do not understand the concepts of stack and swap.Olupajmibanan wrote: »And what do you think of Cloudrest on +3? Most guilds are not able to complete it even with DDs doing 40k+ solo parses. It's hard.......it's tremendously hard even if you fill your group with absolute dps monsters.
And doing 30k dps won’t matter even if people Do understand the concepts of stack and swap.2 -
Joker99✭✭✭All I see is a bunch of comments from a lot of lazy people that don't want to spend some time of their day to practice their rotation, so what you know the mechanics? There are a *** ton of people that know mechanics, that's because they're easier to learn than dps and the reason why there's more people that "know mechanics", but are usually bottom dps of their group.
Between a DD that doesn't die but has 30k dps and one that dies but has 50k dps, anyone would pick the latter because he can learn mechanics easily but the 30k dps DD won't magically turn into a 50k dps one.
And there's another point I want to make, if you claim dummy parses are unimportant because the dummy doesn't fight back then why can't you pull 50k dps too? It's the same conditions as everyone else. Between a 30k dps DD and a 50k one, again, the latter will pull more in trials even if he dies, so stop the ***.PC-EU
DPS Slave:
StamNB, MagNB, MagPlar, MagDK, StamDK, StamWarden
Mostly just a scrub. Not even max CP.Actually max CP.2 -
Cage_Lizardman✭✭✭✭✭Yeah I can't do what the vet trials groups want me to do either, I get about 30k with either of my dd's despite trying and I've given up on that. And yeah I've played this game over a year, done lots of practice on the dummy and watched plenty of youtube videos. I ended my subscription since I really don't have anything else left to do in the game but get farmed by ballgroups in cyro, and I can do that without dlc's or the craft bag.
There are other games too.Edited by Cage_Lizardman on August 31, 2018 6:08PM0 -
Geroken777✭✭✭✭✭FloppyTouch wrote: »
They did. But DPS requirements for admittance to groups steadily rise over time even if nothing whatsoever changed in the dungeon. One day you will be required to have no less than 50k DPS to join groups entering vet Banished Cells 1.
I think the point is someone stated you won’t get past the Twins if you have 30k, if people were beating it with 25k, it just shows how flawed the “you need 30k” argument is, and pretty much invalidates the claim.
The DPS requirement is not just for twins. It is really hard to kill Rakkhat at second moon phase as that time as 25k dps was simply not enough to kill him before his ritual. If everything goes flawlessly he is killable but why would you want to suffer when you can fix this by simply dealing more DPS?The self-righteous shall choke on their sanctimony.0 -
Vain✭✭✭Does the mob die and not you? If so, dps is fine.
Taking too long? Eh, maybe you could improve dps but so long as you're not dying and they *are* dying... what's the big deal?2 -
Valrien✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Does the mob die and not you? If so, dps is fine.
Taking too long? Eh, maybe you could improve dps but so long as you're not dying and they *are* dying... what's the big deal?
More time = more mistakes = more chance for a wipe
This whole "as long as it dies" mentality is frankly as awful as the opposite end of the spectrumValrien Dravic -- Level 50 Dunmeri Sorcerer (EP)
Garahel Dravic -- Level 50 Bosmeri Nightblade (EP)Tamriel Unlimited was a mistake. One Tamriel was a bigger mistake1 -
FrostFallFox✭✭✭✭Lol this thread. “My dps is bad but I don’t die! People with good dps die because they’re squishy dummy humpers!”
Yeah okay, keep believing that. People like to think “oh meta speed runners don’t have fun! But I have lots of fun on my non-meta Light speaker and vicious death build in pve! It works in vet dungeons!”
People find different things fun. Efficiency should be valued rather than seen as elitist.\(^-,,-^)/2 -
Toc de Malsvi✭✭✭✭✭
✭Dps tests are extremely useful for evaluating yourself and your rotation. They are also useful as a source of elimination or sifting of applicants.
While they are not the be all and end all, there is absolutely good reason to set a baseline and ask players to reach that baseline in order to be chosen over other players for content. If a group chooses to set too high a baseline it is too their detriment as they won't get enough applicants or they wont have well rounded players. If they are getting enough applicants and completing content there is no reason for them to lower their standards to accommodate players that cannot hit their baseline.
What you cannot perform on a dummy target you will not be able to perform on a live target. If players and groups of players are setting a baseline and achieving that baseline then it has been proven that the baseline is achievable. The more players achieving that baseline the more reasonable the baseline. If you cannot hit said baseline you need to consider that the group looking for players may be looking for players with more investment into the game, and more specifically their performance as a dps, than you are. This is not a bad thing, it simply means you do not at this time have compatible goals.
Trying to play with players with whom you do not have compatible goals will end in frustration virtually every time. It's best to re-evaluate your in game goals and consider what you really want to achieve. Then seek out players with the same goals as you. It may be that you want and need to spend more time to improve your performance, or it may be that you simply need to find a group that isn't concerned with trying to have the absolute best trial scores.Legendary Archer of ValenwoodBosmer Dragon Knight Archer. XBox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Nightblade Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Sorcerer Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Warden Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Templar's are evil..3 -
Jhalin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Dummy tests can show mastery of your rotation. If you can’t hit 20k solo, you probably won’t hit it in a raid when other mechanics are going on.
The dummy parse is essentially an indicator of how much room for error you have1 -
Vain✭✭✭
Only if it's not shared by everyone involved!This whole "as long as it dies" mentality is frankly as awful as the opposite end of the spectrum
I have a straight stamina nightblade with absolutely next to no survivability aside from killing before I'm killed. I've got a magicka sorc that takes a year and a day to kill anything but can survive everything. I've got more balanced builds that are a mix between the two.
The mindset of "does the job get done or not" removes all of the angsting over if someone else thinks they can dictate how I should play and maximizes fun per hour which is the only efficiency anyone should be worried about.
Moral? Nobody cares what you do or how if you get the job done and if they do they're the expendable ones. Don't give anyone cause for complaint and you only get them from complainers.0 -
Finviuswe✭✭✭✭Dummy tests can show mastery of your rotation. If you can’t hit 20k solo, you probably won’t hit it in a raid when other mechanics are going on.
The dummy parse is essentially an indicator of how much room for error you have
Exactedly. Found the educated guy
To say dummy parses are unneeded is... madness. They're needed. They're absolutely needed. They're an excellent evaluator of skill, which is a the most important things in a game.
Usually it's the same guys who are pulling 15k DPS in pug dungeon runs who are preaching how the dummy parse is worthless. Never heard any rational argument against the dummies0 -
Valrien✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
Only if it's not shared by everyone involved!This whole "as long as it dies" mentality is frankly as awful as the opposite end of the spectrum
I have a straight stamina nightblade with absolutely next to no survivability aside from killing before I'm killed. I've got a magicka sorc that takes a year and a day to kill anything but can survive everything. I've got more balanced builds that are a mix between the two.
The mindset of "does the job get done or not" removes all of the angsting over if someone else thinks they can dictate how I should play and maximizes fun per hour which is the only efficiency anyone should be worried about.
Moral? Nobody cares what you do or how if you get the job done and if they do they're the expendable ones. Don't give anyone cause for complaint and you only get them from complainers.
No, it's pretty bad because all it does is shove your lack of DPS onto others and say "Well it died, didn't it?"
It did not die because of the person with 5k DPS. It died because of the other person carrying them.
When playing with others you should be as considerate to their time as possible instead of "who cares if we take 45 minutes to clear...at least I had fun right??"
Think of it this way:
In a workplace with other people relying on you, if you not only cannot get the job done in a timely manner but also affect others in not doing so then quite simply you will be cut loose and replaced with someone who can.
When others rely on you, that's just the way the world works. Would you kick a tank that couldn't stay alive or a healer that couldn't heal? Of course you would, so why wouldn't you kick a DPS who couldn't do damage?Valrien Dravic -- Level 50 Dunmeri Sorcerer (EP)
Garahel Dravic -- Level 50 Bosmeri Nightblade (EP)Tamriel Unlimited was a mistake. One Tamriel was a bigger mistake3 -
Ramber✭✭✭✭they are so that you do not freak out in a dungeon or trial and mess up. The muscle memory you build, whenever you have time to do so, is nearly priceless.0
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Valrien✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭If you're being carried then you're hardly getting the job done @Valrien
That's my point. When you do no damage and are okay with it as long as the monster dies, then you are most likely being carried.
"Who cares how long it took us to clear...at least I had fun, right?"Valrien Dravic -- Level 50 Dunmeri Sorcerer (EP)
Garahel Dravic -- Level 50 Bosmeri Nightblade (EP)Tamriel Unlimited was a mistake. One Tamriel was a bigger mistake0 -
Jhalin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Dummy tests can show mastery of your rotation. If you can’t hit 20k solo, you probably won’t hit it in a raid when other mechanics are going on.
The dummy parse is essentially an indicator of how much room for error you have
Exactedly. Found the educated guy
To say dummy parses are unneeded is... madness. They're needed. They're absolutely needed. They're an excellent evaluator of skill, which is a the most important things in a game.
Usually it's the same guys who are pulling 15k DPS in pug dungeon runs who are preaching how the dummy parse is worthless. Never heard any rational argument against the dummies
It’s not that dummy parses are the only indiciator, it’s just that they’re a valuable metric up to a certain point. Once you start cresting and exceeding 25k-30k, they stop being particularly good metrics for trial performance. Someone hitting 80k on a dummy with cheese build will probably hit around half that in a trial scenario, someone hitting a dummy for 30k with their trial build will probably hit around or more than that in raids.Edited by Jhalin on August 31, 2018 7:41PM1 -
templesus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭In my experience, the people who complain about DPS tests are usually the people who do 1 test, see numbers they don’t like, and never work on their rotation again after that.5 -
Vain✭✭✭
My fun per hour matters to me, yours is up to you, nothing can change that. You're assuming a lot by trying to connect the mindset with an undefined number.
There's a lot to a viable build but nothing matters if you get stuck with players who obsess over metrics and won't even look at you twice because you don't meet what they feel is the only playstyle.
You want users to be amazing and have fun and not have to be carried and not carry others? Teach them rather than try bludgeoning your ideals over their heads. It's the difference between "you can make a really awesome set for stamina medium armor at x location" vs "your gear sucks, go away until you get good"
Sometimes a group may have low dps or low heals or a squishy tank. Or no tank. Or no heals. There is no "right" way, only ways that work and ways that don't.0 -
Sky_WK✭✭✭✭FloppyTouch wrote: »
They did. But DPS requirements for admittance to groups steadily rise over time even if nothing whatsoever changed in the dungeon. One day you will be required to have no less than 50k DPS to join groups entering vet Banished Cells 1.
Then that’s the day I quit playing ESO.
Then why are you here on the forums loli do not read replies. still playing stamdk for some reason.0 -
Sky_WK✭✭✭✭ITT people who dont want to learn to weave and do their rotations properly.i do not read replies. still playing stamdk for some reason.0
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hedna123b14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭We are 8 months into 2018, if you cant hit 40k+ on a dummy, you are not a good PvE player. That being said, that doesnt mean you cant change and become a good PvE player:)0 -
Valrien✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
My fun per hour matters to me, yours is up to you, nothing can change that. You're assuming a lot by trying to connect the mindset with an undefined number.
There's a lot to a viable build but nothing matters if you get stuck with players who obsess over metrics and won't even look at you twice because you don't meet what they feel is the only playstyle.
You want users to be amazing and have fun and not have to be carried and not carry others? Teach them rather than try bludgeoning your ideals over their heads. It's the difference between "you can make a really awesome set for stamina medium armor at x location" vs "your gear sucks, go away until you get good"
Sometimes a group may have low dps or low heals or a squishy tank. Or no tank. Or no heals. There is no "right" way, only ways that work and ways that don't.
The fact that you have your fun at the expense of others says a lot about you as a person, when you want to play a special build and make a run that much slower.
You said yourself you have your Sorc that can barely do anything but stay alive. Tell me how staying alive but doing no damage is any better than being dead on the floor...I'd be eager to hear that explanation.
My point is you should have your fun, but if it's going to be at the expense of other players then just play solo. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one.
There are some people that can only play an hour per day and get their pledges done. How is their time any less valuable than yours?Edited by Valrien on August 31, 2018 7:59PMValrien Dravic -- Level 50 Dunmeri Sorcerer (EP)
Garahel Dravic -- Level 50 Bosmeri Nightblade (EP)Tamriel Unlimited was a mistake. One Tamriel was a bigger mistake0 -
They are dumb, but vet trial groups are the whiniest people on the game. I used to play only PVE and I changed all my characters to PVP. I still know all the mechanics and a few of these characters, tried and tested, can complete VSO with no issues. But you join an unknown group and the minute they see your sword and shield, let the reeing commence.
Worst case was with my DPS DK in VSO, drops a tonne of DoT then just spam executioner, hits about 30k DPS overall. The whole voice chat was constantly complaining about my character and circle jerking about it. "he's only doing 8k per hit" ignoring the 22k+ DoT. Went down only once, easy run. Constant whining through out ignoring their own failures like forgetting to pull certain bosses, or the healer repeatedly being "unable to change bars".
The test is rubbish anyway, it measures your DPS and sustain sure... But it doesnt move or fight back, the real test is doing the same thing while under constant attack.0 -
Valrien✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Diasflac666 wrote: »They are dumb, but vet trial groups are the whiniest people on the game. I used to play only PVE and I changed all my characters to PVP. I still know all the mechanics and a few of these characters, tried and tested, can complete VSO with no issues. But you join an unknown group and the minute they see your sword and shield, let the reeing commence.
Worst case was with my DPS DK in VSO, drops a tonne of DoT then just spam executioner, hits about 30k DPS overall. The whole voice chat was constantly complaining about my character and circle jerking about it. "he's only doing 8k per hit" ignoring the 22k+ DoT. Went down only once, easy run. Constant whining through out ignoring their own failures like forgetting to pull certain bosses, or the healer repeatedly being "unable to change bars".
The test is rubbish anyway, it measures your DPS and sustain sure... But it doesnt move or fight back, the real test is doing the same thing while under constant attack.
"PvE groups are such whiners"
uses SnS in raid
30k DPS in a raid is low when you include raid buffs.
Sorry but you're honestly just being selfish and lazyValrien Dravic -- Level 50 Dunmeri Sorcerer (EP)
Garahel Dravic -- Level 50 Bosmeri Nightblade (EP)Tamriel Unlimited was a mistake. One Tamriel was a bigger mistake6 -
Mattock_Romulus✭✭✭✭✭My progression guild will encourage people to post a good dps parse on a skelly to see where people are at and to get some insight on how we can help them improve. If you're "only" posting 30k dps and I'm doing 40k dps on the same class / build, then chances are I might know something you don't.
We will also do the "craglorn 3" vet trials and encourage people to compare their skelly score with their boss dps. If there is a big difference then we help them identify why. Usually it's not putting down AoE dots just before movement mechanics. People who die a lot to mechanics don't get those numbers on the boss, but most people who can post a good skelly parse do very well. In my experience it's usually the people who post lower skelly parses who also seem to get killed by mechanics.
Lastly doing 30k dps is fine, but when we have 20 people in the guild and we're picking the "progression group" to work through vHoF why would we pick you over someone else who gets 40k dps? Sure, you'll get your chance, but after the primary group has cleared the content, working at it for a few months. Progression vet trials can take weeks for everyone to learn the mechanics and often the first clear is by the skin of their teeth and lower dps would have meant another week of practice.
I can honestly say anyone with a good attitude is welcome in our vet trial guild, but you need to improve and do your % of the damage as a dps otherwise you're getting carried.
The entire concept of what you just wrote should be stickied for this game but also applies to the corporate world.
It is amazing how translatable game skills are to the work force. I was hired years ago by referencing a Forbes article on how skills gleaned from online gaming translated to real world job ability. Two managers were in the interview, one was completely baffled... the other manager, the one who made the decision to hire me (right decision by the way
) told me later her and her husband played WOW and she kept getting me promoted throughout the years... i'm sure other hobbies can be leveraged towards work life and this hobby is one of them.
Moral of the story.. please subscribe and support ESO.. it's good for your future and cheaper than college (even though i wasted money completing college post grad courses)... and work on your raid skills.. if a guild has the desire to help you improve keep that guild and maybe.. apply some of this towards your career become a rich whale like me
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