Class Reps and their discords

Scarpion · August 2018

Hi, I am just posting to give my thoughts on the class rep discords and the class reps themselves.

I recently joined the class rep discords a few days ago for the dragonknight, nightblade, sorcerer and templar. I did not join the other discords such as vampires and werewolves as I have no interest in them. I thought that I would find lots of discussion on how to improve each class, how to bring overperforming classes in line with others and so forth.

However I was shocked to find chaos. I must admit most of this chaos was in the sorcerer discord but there was some in the other class discords too. Lots of arguments, lots of flaming, trolling, disagreements by the members. Console players claiming they were being treated unfairly while others claiming just the "stupid" console players are being treated unfairly. I have seen arguments over which set of players are the best (na vs eu), I have seen arguments over which class is the best (most people were arguing nightblades, however some argued that sorcerers are the best), I saw such silly ideas coming from community members which were met with lots of discussion from the reps while great ideas being ignored (an example of a silly idea is making shields crittable, an example of a great idea is giving hurricane a purge and taking away the speed boost).

The worst thing I saw however, which admittedly has mostly been in the past 2 or 3 days, was the treatment of the players by the reps. Specifically 1 rep, but some other reps too, just flaming, claiming they do not care about the players and their opinions on the classes, instantly kicking and banning players for bringing up ideas they do not agree with and so on. I will not name the 1 specific rep who has been treating the players the worst, but he has really been treating the players in that discord horribly. The other reps too have been treating the players disgracefully too, however not quite as open as the 1 specific rep. In a private PC EU discord full of PC EU players from both PVE and PVP backgrounds, players have shown images of the reps telling players in other private discords how the reps are not all on the same terms and there is inhouse fighting among them and even flaming each others PVP builds (while ignoring the players opinions and advice on these builds).

I am finding it a disgrace that these reps, these members that the community has chosen to represent us in making this games class balance better, have been treating the players so wrong in these discords, especially 1 specific rep. There was another thread about the issues in these discords I believe, which led to a rep, from my understanding, banning players for personal reasons based on incidents in a completely separate private discord.

I wish naming and shaming was possible but it is not unfortunately. Sometimes it is very much needed.

Flaming the players, informing everyone they do not care about the program and their ideas and banning people who disagree with them is disgraceful.

Just to clarify, I believe in the class rep program. I just do not believe in certain reps. They are abusing the opportunity the community gave them by voting for them. This is evidenced in the screenshots I have gave to the correct parties.

idk · August 2018

If you truly feel the class reps have treated players inappropriately I suggest giving Zos examples. If it is text a SS is very easy to provide.

Class reps serve at the will of Zos and if they cannot handle interacting with us maturely and responsibly then Zos would probably like to know. It would seem Gina would be the best to contact privately.

My post is not acknowledging anything as I do not know, Just explaining a good way to go about reporting this to Zos responsibly.

Beardimus · August 2018

i've put this elsewhere. As a console guy I was uneasy about Discord being the medium for this at the start, as very few Xbox guys I know even come to this forum, and less so then bother to setup Discord (as we arent using it otherwise) purely to partake. I worried it would be a very niche / PC view.

I'll say my concerns arent founded, at ALL - as actually the reps have taken the points forward we wanted. If ZOS will listen is another matter, but thats for another day. I've seen some Discord's working REALLY well, and in fact the Sorcerer chat yesterday was a real great source of collaboration yesterday and idea sharing, and they got into areas that we as Sorc's maybe hadnt realised were the real issues. It was working well.

I've seen one or two reps repeatedly asking for clarity on points raised, responding to my personal questions for things to note too, asking questions themselves in the threads around topics ZOS clearly have a view on. For some it must have been near full time work these last weeks. To flame that work because of the odd bad apple isnt fair at all. The Reps have a huge task landed on them. And moderating 1000's of lines of a chat is not really their core purpose.

What I do see as an issue, is people that dont Main the class in other class threads distrupting things. In particular some of the NightBlades who had their own motives on the Cage threads on this forum were present again, however I know theres been an increase in moderation in the last few days and thats lessened.

Personally, I dont see the need to come to the forum to undermine the work the Reps are doing. If there are specific examples of wrong doing, take it up there - with the other reps. or even ZOS. It feels more that a couple of posts on here are specifically undermining the program for some reason.

i'm not denying wrong doing, but again, its easy to throw mud when you dont have to provide proof and i'm concerned about other motives of flaming a whole initiative in particular with a focus on Sorc's. Again if wrong has been done I hope you escalate it appropriately and its sorted, I just dont have enough to go on from what you have said.

Maryal · August 2018

I'm sorry you had a bad experience, but the long and short of it is that there may be little that ZOS could do since it's not their (ZOS's) discord channel, nor is it a public discord channel.

Turelus · August 2018

If you feel someone representing ZOS has been acting in a way which they shouldn't you're best sending a PM to Gina/Jessica/Kai on the forums informing them about it.

Whilst those channels are not ZOS' grounds to police if players they've chosen as representatives are acting in a bad way or limiting their availability to the community for unwarranted reasons it's something I am sure ZOS would like to know about.

Personally I don't know why we didn't get get one "official" discord with all the reps in and separate channels for discussions on each area. It would have been easier for ZOS to keep an eye on.

Katahdin · August 2018

Not surprised.

Considering there are issues about stamblades that have been repeatedly brought up by the playerbase and seem to have been repeatedly ignored by the class reps, it's blatently obvious that some have an agenda and it's not to make things better for the game and the playerbase but rather to protect their favorite class spec and keep the ones they dislike down or eliminated

ZOS_GinaBruno · August 2018

Just a reminder that the Discord channels in question are run by the Class Reps, and are not official channels from ZOS. That said, sending you a PM @Scarpion. If anyone has concerns about the Class Rep program or individuals in the program, please message me privately to discuss.

Armatesz · August 2018

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Just a reminder that the Discord channels in question are run by the Class Reps, and are not official channels from ZOS. That said, sending you a PM @Scarpion. If anyone has concerns about the Class Rep program or individuals in the program, please message me privately to discuss.

Just a curious thought but are there official channels run by zos? I mean like discord.

Maryal · August 2018

Turelus wrote: »

If you feel someone representing ZOS has been acting in a way which they shouldn't you're best sending a PM to Gina/Jessica/Kai on the forums informing them about it.

Whilst those channels are not ZOS' grounds to police if players they've chosen as representatives are acting in a bad way or limiting their availability to the community for unwarranted reasons it's something I am sure ZOS would like to know about.

Personally I don't know why we didn't get get one "official" discord with all the reps in and separate channels for discussions on each area. It would have been easier for ZOS to keep an eye on.

I think ZOS should have created an official discord with the reps and separate channels for discussions in each area as you suggested. When these types of 'discussions' go one behind closed doors (so to speak), well .... it's an invitation for trouble.

Lake · August 2018

I don't think you're alone. Someone posted something on the forums about the Sorc Discord a few days ago too: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/432647/sorc-class-rep-discord

And the most recent posts in the Discord are mocking that person who started the thread - a completely pointless off-topic discussion.

Turelus · August 2018

Maryal wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

If you feel someone representing ZOS has been acting in a way which they shouldn't you're best sending a PM to Gina/Jessica/Kai on the forums informing them about it.

Whilst those channels are not ZOS' grounds to police if players they've chosen as representatives are acting in a bad way or limiting their availability to the community for unwarranted reasons it's something I am sure ZOS would like to know about.

Personally I don't know why we didn't get get one "official" discord with all the reps in and separate channels for discussions on each area. It would have been easier for ZOS to keep an eye on.

I think ZOS should have created an official discord with the reps and separate channels for discussions in each area as you suggested. When these types of 'discussions' go one behind closed doors (so to speak), well .... it's an invitation for trouble.

I mean I just personally think that would have been easier, although I don't know how chaotic it would have been to cram everyone from the community (we're talking millions of accounts/players) into one Discord server.

I guess the official means to contact them remains the feedback and update threads on these forums. Having seen other games with player representatives though I can understand how hard it can be for a company to get a group of gamers together which will won't have friction, though one hopes that those chosen are mature enough to not cause trouble if it comes up.

Hopefully this is just a little issue and bump in the road which goes away and we don't need to worry about it. Glad to see Gina is keeping an eye though.

SorataArisugawa · August 2018

Katahdin wrote: »

Not surprised.

Considering there are issues about stamblades that have been repeatedly brought up by the playerbase and seem to have been repeatedly ignored by the class reps, it's blatently obvious that some have an agenda and it's not to make things better for the game and the playerbase but rather to protect their favorite class spec and keep the ones they dislike down or eliminated

Yeah, yeah. You hitting the nail, but I think not how you wanted it.
If you can't provide good reasons why, something is problem, and just focusing on spread rumors, I, if I would be a class rep., would be annoyed after the 10th time as well.

For you and for @Scarpion stays: They don't have to listen to all of your opinions. They look for facts. I think it is much to troublesome to listen to all the not so valid concerns and opinions and getting hate for not carrying about them.
Now they are getting all the hate, normally ZOS gets. And they not even getting money for this.
@ZOS_GinaBruno please be sure, to support them with all the information, structures and manpower you can give. Otherwise you won't have them long as Reps.

Joy_Division · August 2018

I don't think it is right you are using naming and shaming just so you can throw out unsubstantiated generalizations at us and not provide examples.

XGCAlbatr0ss · August 2018

how do you join the discords? is there invite codes posted anywhere?

Turelus · August 2018

XGCAlbatr0ss wrote: »

how do you join the discords? is there invite codes posted anywhere?

Links are in this thread.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/416444/eso-class-representative-program-feedback-channels

Checkmath · August 2018

I really want to say some words in here:

I know very well, how messy those discord servers can be and it is from time to time really hard to read those channels. We put a lot of effort into those discords and are confronted with a lot of nonsense too. We give our best to do, what the devs expect from us, but it does not mean, that it is easy.

As a small reminder, we have also the official threads in here on the forum, where discussions and feedback statements are possible. An official discord from the devs side would be impossible. They already have the hands full with their work and the forum. They could not handle such a huge discord additionally to their work, so there also is no chance to overlook such a discord or even moderate it. That is why we came up with those "unofficial" ones.

Those discords are free to all of you guys, also for the people on other platforms. I know, the players from Xbox and PS are not as much present in there or the forum as the PC community, but that does not mean we overlook or disregard them. We are happy about everyone helping us getting feedback.

It was clear from the beginning, that those discords will not only contain constructive feedback, we have dealt with a lot of toxicity not only towards us reps, also between players. It is true, in some discords we had to be more strict lately with some players causing problems, but this is based on bad behavior in the discords.

We are confronted daily with hundreds or thousands messages, it is a lot of work and we even get hate mails for doing, what we were asked to do. As somebody even stated above, that we only care about own class, which is terribly wrong. Reps got insulted repeatedly, also players in the discords were insulted and baited. We try to maintain those as good as possible, but we also are only human. We care about the game and try what we can to make the best out of this program.

In my opinion it is really sad to even read the OP, because I have seen how people in there interact with each other from time to time. It is even sadder to see those insults between all of those people. I wish we really could have civil conversations and fun discussing the classes.

Lord_Eomer · August 2018

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Just a reminder that the Discord channels in question are run by the Class Reps, and are not official channels from ZOS. That said, sending you a PM @Scarpion. If anyone has concerns about the Class Rep program or individuals in the program, please message me privately to discuss.

@ZOS_GinaBruno despite of that ZOS does not manage class Reps discord but should take strictly action as they may not deserved to be Class Rep.

This program shall not limit to have feedback from class reps, ESO community can not be ignored and class reps behaviour towards other players can be very discouraging!

ZOS_GinaBruno · August 2018

Armatesz wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Just a reminder that the Discord channels in question are run by the Class Reps, and are not official channels from ZOS. That said, sending you a PM @Scarpion. If anyone has concerns about the Class Rep program or individuals in the program, please message me privately to discuss.

Just a curious thought but are there official channels run by zos? I mean like discord.

Not at this time, no. We simply don't have the bandwidth to participate and moderate a persistent channel like that.

Izaki · August 2018

This is just so unfair to the class reps. They get flamed all the damn time by people who are mostly clueless about the more intricate mechanics of the game, then they get flamed for not agreeing with some of the stupidest ideas, then they get flamed for disrespecting someone while they barely ever get treated with the respect they are due. Just sayin'.

Tasear · August 2018

XGCAlbatr0ss wrote: »

how do you join the discords? is there invite codes posted anywhere?

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/416444/eso-class-representative-program-feedback-channels#latest

Here you go

See the truth with your own eyes.

Liofa · August 2018

Hello. I'll try to explain every concern you have on each pharagraph. Hopefully these will be enough of an answer.

1- Chaos. When you look at forums and reddit (recently started to read that too), it's the same thing. Absurd amount of people throwing crap at each other for having different opinions on the smallest topic. We had a ton of complaints lately, some people even left these discords due to the toxic behaviour. We recently decided to do things differently. After the decision, any kind of behaviour issue will be resulted in a warning with the removal of the comment, followed by a ban if happens again. It doesn't matter how good these players are as long as they don't have the capability of keeping a discussion going nicely. There was one person in Tanks Discord saying "all tanks and healers are bad players, they should be removed from pvp", which I see no reason for a warning or ban with. The person continued to start insulting. I gave warning. Insulted again. Banned. That's it. I also banned 2 more people for the same reason. Being civil is more important than how well you play the game. That's how I am moderating the Tank Discord and that's how other Discords will be moderated by other Reps.

2- If you have a problem with a specific Rep, you should bring it to the attention of other Reps and Community Managers. You can easily provide screenshots or whatever to us in forums or in Discords. You don't have to keep them in private because it's not allowed to post here. On the other topic of ignoring feedback from players, there is no such thing or I haven't seen it. For example, on our first Dev meeting, I asked Wrobel about AOE Taunting. This is something a lot of players want but I completely disagree with it. I still brought it to their attention and explained what Devs think about it in the Class Rep Tanking thread in the forums. If you see such thing happening, again, bring it to attention the same way I mentioned above.

I have no time to read all Discords as I am a normal human with a full time job and raiding 6 days a week with 3 groups. In the Tank Discord that I moderate, only reason for ban is insulting others. I've read so many things in there that I completely disagree but I still answer and try to have a normal conversation. Mostly it works out, rarely it doesn't. I am currently happy with how things are going in Tank Discord just like most players in there. Hopefully people will have the same feelings for other Discords. Again, if you have problems that you can't share here, please share them with me on private message here or in Discord. I'll see to it as soon as I can.

Ramber · August 2018

I think the concern is they were ignored lol, as stated here in the forums and other outlets, after the most recent release they were either ignored or misunderstood completely. Why don't you take the opinions and concerns of the people who have played the games the longest and love it the most instead of the (what is it 10?) people who won a popularity contest that 99 percent of the community didnt even know about?

RinaldoGandolphi · August 2018

Izaki wrote: »

This is just so unfair to the class reps. They get flamed all the damn time by people who are mostly clueless about the more intricate mechanics of the game,

This is exactly why I don't think players should be the ones sorting though feedback and deciding what gets passed on and what doesn't.

I have nothing but respect for the current Class Reps, but ZOS went about this thing the whole wrong way which is why I won't participate.

ZOS themselves should have came up with a survey with 7-10 open ended questions such as:

1. what aspects of the game are you most happy with
2. What aspects of the game would you like to see improvements
3. which skill in the game do you think over performs compared to other such skills
4. which class do you believe has the best passives?
5. which ultimate do you think is the most effective on pvp
6. whihc ultimate do you think is the most effective in pve
7. What are your thoughts on healing? too strong, too weak, or other?
8. If you could change one thing about Cyrodiil what would it be?
9. If you could improve one thing about trials what would it be?
10. If you could improve one thing about battle grounds what would it be?
11. Name on quality of life feature you want to see in ESO
12. Additional comments

That right there or something like it should be the survey, it should be posted with Survey monkey or something similar and ZOS should have collected the feedback from that without things being filtered by selected players.

Then ZOS sits down in house and takes the answers to those questions, brainstorms, and then prioritizes them into fixes and changes in the game based on that feedback.

I have done hundreds of public opinion surverys on a variety of topics over the years. Feedback that is focused on one particular issue (such as Sorc balance) is rarely useful data because compromises can not be inferred from the data received. Questions must be specifically structured, and open ended in order to find compromises.

Absolutes rarely work, you will always have one side unhappy. Our entire world is built on compromises, and ESO should be no different. However, the current Class Rep program how its been instituted in this game leads us nowhere but down a road of Absolutes that at the end no one will be happy with. Longterm this program will probably hurt the game.

Furthermore, the Class Rep program just reinforces the idea that players know more about a game then the developer whihc I no longer agree with. Early one, I thought Wrobel and others didn't know a lot of things, however as time has gone on Wrobel has grown into that position well and a lot of his changes he has made have solid reasoning and math behind them. The guy has improved a lot over the last two years. My hats off to him.

As long as we continue down this path that players know more then the devs about their own game, and paths where feedback is being funneled into a system that favors absolutes over compromises, I don't see things meaningfully improving.

No disrespect to our Class Reps, I respect all those individuals. If they don't know it, they do now.

I just don't think this system was the right way to go about things, and I think changes to the game should be based on open ended feedback and developer brainstorming over player feedback and biases.

Just my 2 cents. Regardless, Good luck to the Class reps and the program. Hopefully it works out and im mistaken.

Malamar1229 · August 2018

Lord of the flies

Reverb · August 2018

If the class rep being most openly disrespectful and disparaging towards other players is who I suspect, it’s not only not surprising, but fully expected. Many of were caught by surprise at one of the Rep selections, because while this person is very knowledable and has great ideas, they have shown a pattern of disrespect and poor communication throughout the years.

And while Discord is the venue for chatter, it’s far from the only way to contact the reps with feedback.

Katahdin · August 2018

SorataArisugawa wrote: »

Katahdin wrote: »

Not surprised.

Considering there are issues about stamblades that have been repeatedly brought up by the playerbase and seem to have been repeatedly ignored by the class reps, it's blatently obvious that some have an agenda and it's not to make things better for the game and the playerbase but rather to protect their favorite class spec and keep the ones they dislike down or eliminated

Yeah, yeah. You hitting the nail, but I think not how you wanted it.
If you can't provide good reasons why, something is problem, and just focusing on spread rumors, I, if I would be a class rep., would be annoyed after the 10th time as well.

For you and for @Scarpion stays: They don't have to listen to all of your opinions. They look for facts. I think it is much to troublesome to listen to all the not so valid concerns and opinions and getting hate for not carrying about them.
Now they are getting all the hate, normally ZOS gets. And they not even getting money for this.
@ZOS_GinaBruno please be sure, to support them with all the information, structures and manpower you can give. Otherwise you won't have them long as Reps.

Specific details have been given repeatedly.

They have been ignored over and over because the class is good at one specific area of the game (pvp) and because some people hate the playstyle they can't be allowed to be viable in the pve end game. That is for magicka only apparently

Drdeath20 · August 2018

Check out the templar discord. People seem to be behaving on there and some constructive idea sharing going on

Ohtimbar · August 2018

I dislike the idea of reps. The forums exist and many complaints, compliments and ideas can be found there without some stupid hierachy being imposed on the community. Reps are truly the most corporate way to approach something that should be seamless and organic.

Scarpion · August 2018

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Check out the templar discord. People seem to be behaving on there and some constructive idea sharing going on

The Templar discord is the best discord from my experience. Checkmath, a rep I have been speaking to today even mentioned it when talking to me and I agree with him wholeheartedly. This thread is mostly about the behaviour and attitude of specific reps in the other discords, Sorcerer being the main one but the others too.

It is no coincidence that the Templar discord, ran by Checkmath himself I would assume because he is a Templar main, is the best discord.

Gilvoth · August 2018

just like in highschool, those days were Horrible for 85% of the entire school.
why do we the class have to be forced to follow a small groups opinion here in eso?
please remove this program.

Potenza · August 2018

This class representative idea is not going to work properly. Its just bad. Essentially the class rep is put into certain level of "power" right? And who decided who these class reps are? The players, and based on what? What exactly are the qualifications for someone to be a class rep? Its all questionable to say the least and add that to the toxic community and what you get is chaos - yes I say toxic because thats what it is now. It may have been a good community in the past but no more.
This "class rep" idea is a corporate type reorganization to promote more efficient communication within a corporation and creates a "buffer" or filter if you will to make the higher ups jobs simpler. This works fine in the corporate world where everyone is getting paid. This is a social experiment by ZOS - and we are the guinea pigs.

I think they should end this "class rep" idea, have people monitor the forums and filter the information on THEIR END.