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Minimun damage requirement for DPS role in vet dungeons
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CyberSkooma✭✭✭✭✭Yeah no 30k-40k for me is honestly where most people should be at in terms of general population (This is of course for DDs and not tanks and healers lol) so I have no expectations of people generally when it comes to dps so long as they can pull their weight, anything higher than 42k is for over achievers lol
30-40k for the GENERAL POPULATION? Are you serious? 30k is more than 95% of players will ever hit, whether or not you want to admit it. And that last 5% of players hitting 30 and over is still a lot of people.
Not everybody runs content requiring that DPS, nor will they ever. Not everybody even attempts basic vet content. Now, to people attempting it that are low hitting, you can just say that they are ignorant of their class. That's fine, but it again comes down to the fact that you can simply find a premade group in a guild with people who know what they're doing, and stop joining up with randoms. It's not hard. There's no real issue here.Edited by CyberSkooma on August 27, 2018 6:07PMI play this game a little bit I guess8 -
Shezzarrine✭✭✭✭✭Shezzarrine wrote: »I only care about DPS in dungeons where the HM is a DPS race but thats it.
If theres no DPS race then it doesnt matter.
In fact moon hunter keep NEEDS to be done slowly unless your DDs have like 70k DPS each or something stupid like that otherwise you'll trigger multiple boss mechanics and get wiped as a result. So having a minimum DPS requirement would just be toxic tbh especially when they're intentionally slowing down dungeons even hardmodes like that.
Though I will admit the wardens (lightning mages or w/e) are a small DPS race but so long as there are never 3 up at once everything is fine tbh.
and just FYI 30k-40k DPS is more than enough for nearly all content baring Trial HMs.
Yes 30-40k is more than sufficient for any dungeon, but that's not what we are talking about here. You may consider that low dps, which is more or less true for end game, but we are talking low dps as sub-15k.
I honestly don't think I've ever had more than one or two pugs pulling in that 30-40k range. This is one reason why there are so few tanks and heals in queues (other than it being a less desirable role to most people) it's that they don't want to spend 50 min in an otherwise 10 min dungeon. Let alone vDLC where even if there isn't a dps check the fights can be much harder on ta ks and heals the longer they go on, when mistakes start to mount.
I don't believe dps requirements are the way to solve this, but can we at least acknowledge this as a problem?
Yeah no 30k-40k for me is honestly where most people should be at in terms of general population (This is of course for DDs and not tanks and healers lol) so I have no expectations of people generally when it comes to dps so long as they can pull their weight, anything higher than 42k is for over achievers lol
Yeah its totally fine to acknowledge the problem and I agree but if we do nothing with it then its pointless. Right now as far as I can see putting another barrier on the content would just be bad for new players and the player base generally (as you probably agree), My issue with all this is that instead of actually teaching new players and going out of their way to help people, they instead want to just block people who dont know any better from doing the content which imo is elitist as hell.
Acknowledge the problem fine, but we should teach those who have lower DPS how to be better. More people need to do this instead of just kicking them from group finder, ADD THEM and HELP them. I do it all the time when someone asks in chat or when we get a random running with our usual group. Always help them. Its the only way to reduce the problem of people joining with virtually no DPS.
I agree with everything you say here. That last part of my post wasn't really towards you, it was towards the thread. 30k is not hard to acheive barring some Individuals with disabilities. I do not mind helping others and spending time teaching rotations, proper gear setups, ect, but so many of the people who need teaching are those who are accually against learning and are usually jerks about it.
The other night my group did vCoH II (I tanked, and had a DPS and heals with me) and I noticed the dps we got paired with didn't have food active, and because I often forget when my food runs out I mentioned something like "hey xxxx, do you have food?" And he said "no, but my sheilds are 20k so I'll be fine.". At that point we mentioned that food also helps your dps and will increase his sheilds and offered him his choice of food (blue mag, tristat, witchmother's) and he just said something about maybe he will take it if this starts to go bad.
People are just unwilling to learn and want to play the game their way, which is fine until you get into group content, especially groups that are not like minded. My point of asking if we can recognize the problem was that if we recognize the problem, and agree on what the problem accually is, then we can come up with a solution that is much better than a dps check just to enter a dungeon3 -
Kuramas9tails✭✭✭✭✭
✭ZoS may you improve a DPS minimun damage requirement for vet dungeons please? In my last dungeon (vWS1) I was doing 47% of the group damage as a Frost Warden Tank, the annoying think i that all want to be a DPS when not all are, the role of a DPS is do damage no kiss the mobs. 10 minutes to kill the second boss. Or at least remove the quiter punishment in this situations.
You literally randomized yourself into a group dungeon on veteran mode knowing there was a chance you would get a good group or bad.
That was the chance you took.
Next time, I suggest you find some DPS you can rely on instead of randomizing.
Your friendly neighborhood crazy cat lady of ESO
New PSN name: SundariTheLast. Proud seller in RedEye Empire, PURPLE GANG and Backalley Trading.
AD High Elf Mageblade DPS (General)(Former Empress) -- Stormproof/VMOL, VHOF, VDSA completion
AD Khajiit Mageblade DPS -- Flawless Conquerer
FOR THE QUEEN!
PS4/NA3 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭SquareSausage wrote: »Grouped into a vet BC2 today and i can attest to my tank doing 50% damage, the bosses' health bar was dropping under 4k a sec, it was so bad. I had frost wall and engulfing flames up and standard as when ready. One DPS was so scared of fighting he was running away from the adds and resetting the fight constantly on Keeper Imiril when he dissapears and summons adds and then respawns after a short duration. We had banekin, matriarchs, clanfears and boss all up at once for most of the fight.
failed final boss as they couldnt kill behemoths or orbs that heal the boss in time, wasnt even a pledge. Had to quit.
If your tank is doing 50% or the group damage either the group damage is 4K or your tank is setup as a dps.
Yes on my healers I can pull 50% if the group damage when I queue solo for a random. It’s because I queue on a dps.
Anyone who wants dps requirements can use the system Zos implemented for such desires and from ones own group. It’s very rare I queue up in GF and don’t clear or have horrid problems and it’s because I know I can carry the group through most content.
Outside of that when I want a solid group inform it myself. It’s why we have guilds and my raid guild is a great source for good players.1 -
DMuehlhausen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭ZoS may you improve a DPS minimun damage requirement for vet dungeons please? In my last dungeon (vWS1) I was doing 47% of the group damage as a Frost Warden Tank, the annoying think i that all want to be a DPS when not all are, the role of a DPS is do damage no kiss the mobs. 10 minutes to kill the second boss. Or at least remove the quiter punishment in this situations.
How about HELL NAH. This would just be the start. Who determines those numbers too? Is it you? By the way you sound anything under 40k dps would be to low. How do you get to that DPS when you aren't even allowed to do the content that gets you the gear to get to those numbers. Now if you want to put a number like 10k dps then maybe, cause that will allow you to do almost any content in the game. Sure it will be slow, but if people do what they are suppose to you can get through most anything.4 -
CyberSkooma✭✭✭✭✭Kuramas9tails wrote: »ZoS may you improve a DPS minimun damage requirement for vet dungeons please? In my last dungeon (vWS1) I was doing 47% of the group damage as a Frost Warden Tank, the annoying think i that all want to be a DPS when not all are, the role of a DPS is do damage no kiss the mobs. 10 minutes to kill the second boss. Or at least remove the quiter punishment in this situations.
You literally randomized yourself into a group dungeon on veteran mode knowing there was a chance you would get a good group or bad.
That was the chance you took.
Next time, I suggest you find some DPS you can rely on instead of randomizing.
Exactly. It's not hard to get a group of people together that know what they're doing. By the Nine, JOIN A GUILD!!! That's what they exist for!I play this game a little bit I guess0 -
JinMori✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Facefister wrote: »
Here is this "nearly all high dps DDs are dying non-stop in trials, while that 10k dps guy survives the entire fight" post. It's getting stale.Facefister wrote: »The mindset of the DDs, especially the bad ones, is that the tank and the healer should fulfill their role while their "role" of the Damage Dealer is a huge grey area which allows all kinds of shenanigans.
No, there is another kind of bad DPS. The kind that may be able to do ungodly amounts of damage, but if you fart in his general direction he'll keel over. They are the kind that refuse to adapt to any circumstances that fall outside his little meta box and would rather go on a tirade in general chat and/or the forums than make any adjustment to their tactics or stats because "muh deeps would drop!"
It's stupid and unrealistic.
Iv'e never seen it happening, and probably never will, because if you stop, and think about how stupid that thing is, you will soon realize why it makes no sense.
Do you really think that a dps who can do 40/50 or even 60 k dps will survive less then a noob who can barely do 10 k dps? Do you realize that there is a pretty big difference in skills? Do you realize that self heals are tied with the same stats that allow you to do damage? If i have a healer, i can pretty much tank any boss aside from the bosses that hit very hard, and i have the standard 17.1k health, what generally happens with a 10 k dps dd, when he's targeted by a boss is this: he/she runs around like a chicken without head, constantly bringing the boss out of ground aoes, lengthening the fight, and dying shortly after usually because of lack or resources ( yes, your 25 k health isn't gonna save you when you have 0 resources and are forced to heavy attack every 2 seconds) or they die because of mechanic.
This is what actually happens, not the 10k dps survives because 30 k health fairytale.
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SquareSausage✭✭✭✭✭SquareSausage wrote: »Grouped into a vet BC2 today and i can attest to my tank doing 50% damage, the bosses' health bar was dropping under 4k a sec, it was so bad. I had frost wall and engulfing flames up and standard as when ready. One DPS was so scared of fighting he was running away from the adds and resetting the fight constantly on Keeper Imiril when he dissapears and summons adds and then respawns after a short duration. We had banekin, matriarchs, clanfears and boss all up at once for most of the fight.
failed final boss as they couldnt kill behemoths or orbs that heal the boss in time, wasnt even a pledge. Had to quit.
If your tank is doing 50% or the group damage either the group damage is 4K or your tank is setup as a dps.
As I said I was doing 50% of damage with frost wall and engulfing flames for about 2k dps, the healer was trying his hardest to keep the other 2 dps alive who were standing infront of behemoth breath or in the blue fire, the other 2 dps I cant say exactly what they were doing, more likely panicking.
The thing is poor DPS players are usually those who are not very good at game mechanics, or slow reflexes, stubborn, or all of the above and some more. Which all add up to give a terrible outcome in group content.
People saying 50k dps but dies a lot, or 5k dps but never dies on a DD is deluded.
The 50k dps guy will know mechanics inside out, provide aoe and have a shield and/or self heal and can prob solo the dungeon.
The 5k dps will have poor dps, no mechanics understanding, poor response time, gets flustered easy and dies all the time.
Breakfast KingPS4 EU3 -
CyberSkooma✭✭✭✭✭Facefister wrote: »
Here is this "nearly all high dps DDs are dying non-stop in trials, while that 10k dps guy survives the entire fight" post. It's getting stale.Facefister wrote: »The mindset of the DDs, especially the bad ones, is that the tank and the healer should fulfill their role while their "role" of the Damage Dealer is a huge grey area which allows all kinds of shenanigans.
No, there is another kind of bad DPS. The kind that may be able to do ungodly amounts of damage, but if you fart in his general direction he'll keel over. They are the kind that refuse to adapt to any circumstances that fall outside his little meta box and would rather go on a tirade in general chat and/or the forums than make any adjustment to their tactics or stats because "muh deeps would drop!"
It's stupid and unrealistic.
Iv'e never seen it happening, and probably never will, because if you stop, and think about how stupid that thing is, you will soon realize why it makes no sense.
Do you really think that a dps who can do 40/50 or even 60 k dps will survive less then a noob who can barely do 10 k dps? Do you realize that there is a pretty big difference in skills? Do you realize that self heals are tied with the same stats that allow you to do damage? If i have a healer, i can pretty much tank any boss aside from the bosses that hit very hard, and i have the standard 17.1k health, what generally happens with a 10 k dps dd, when he's targeted by a boss is this: he/she runs around like a chicken without head, constantly bringing the boss out of ground aoes, lengthening the fight, and dying shortly after usually because of lack or resources ( yes, your 25 k health isn't gonna save you when you have 0 resources and are forced to heavy attack every 2 seconds) or they die because of mechanic.
This is what actually happens, not the 10k dps survives because 30 k health fairytale.
The issue that people are talking about, which I mainly see in trials, are DPS that are so concentrated on hitting a "parse" on a boss that they don't pay attention to mechanics and end up getting obliterated. It happens.I play this game a little bit I guess4 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ZoS may you improve a DPS minimun damage requirement for vet dungeons please? In my last dungeon (vWS1) I was doing 47% of the group damage as a Frost Warden Tank, the annoying think i that all want to be a DPS when not all are, the role of a DPS is do damage no kiss the mobs. 10 minutes to kill the second boss. Or at least remove the quiter punishment in this situations.
If you think taking 10 minutes to kill a boss is bad it's a good thing you didn't play online RPGs back in the old days when they could take hours.3 -
JinMori✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭SquareSausage wrote: »SquareSausage wrote: »Grouped into a vet BC2 today and i can attest to my tank doing 50% damage, the bosses' health bar was dropping under 4k a sec, it was so bad. I had frost wall and engulfing flames up and standard as when ready. One DPS was so scared of fighting he was running away from the adds and resetting the fight constantly on Keeper Imiril when he dissapears and summons adds and then respawns after a short duration. We had banekin, matriarchs, clanfears and boss all up at once for most of the fight.
failed final boss as they couldnt kill behemoths or orbs that heal the boss in time, wasnt even a pledge. Had to quit.
If your tank is doing 50% or the group damage either the group damage is 4K or your tank is setup as a dps.
As I said I was doing 50% of damage with frost wall and engulfing flames for about 2k dps, the healer was trying his hardest to keep the other 2 dps alive who were standing infront of behemoth breath or in the blue fire, the other 2 dps I cant say exactly what they were doing, more likely panicking.
The thing is poor DPS players are usually those who are not very good at game mechanics, or slow reflexes, stubborn, or all of the above and some more. Which all add up to give a terrible outcome in group content.
People saying 50k dps but dies a lot, or 5k dps but never dies on a DD is deluded.
The 50k dps guy will know mechanics inside out, provide aoe and have a shield and/or self heal and can prob solo the dungeon.
The 5k dps will have poor dps, no mechanics understanding, poor response time, gets flustered easy and dies all the time.
Yep, it's just an excuse to justify bad playing, this is what i have a big problem with, rather then the bad playing it's this dishonesty, this delusional thinking that gets on my nerves.
And then when you point it out, they even have the gall to say things like, well, you are just a meta monkey, or, well, it's just a game, get a life, after you took the time to carry their butts through the dungeon, as if they could have completed the dungeon without the 1 very good player....3 -
swirve✭✭✭✭StormChaser3000 wrote: »StamWhipCultist wrote: »20k+ for regular vets
30k+ for DLC vet hardmodes
That is how I feel when I see combat metrics from cakewalk dungeons compared to struggling or unable to complete groups.
I have a question. When we talk about 20-30k DPS, are we talking about single target DPS? What about sorcerers? I've been quite frustrated while testing my sorc on the precursor and pulling average 13-14k (18k if to use ultimate ability). However most of my attack skills are AoE, so in theory my DPS should be much higher when fighting mob groups in dungeons (on a side note I have no issues to do solo normal dungeons, 1st versions). So I wonder whether this AoE factor is counted and I can start doing group vets with my 14k single target DPS, or should I wait till I figure out how to pull 20k single target on my sorc?
30k single target.
What is your spamable skill?
For example Force Pulse with Crystal Frags when magic proc happens.0 -
Facefister✭✭✭✭✭
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Apples and Styrofoam Oranges. Backthen everything was an endless grind. Gear was an endless grind, items were an endless grind, leveling was an endless grind. And I am not talking about killing 10 wolves.ZoS may you improve a DPS minimun damage requirement for vet dungeons please? In my last dungeon (vWS1) I was doing 47% of the group damage as a Frost Warden Tank, the annoying think i that all want to be a DPS when not all are, the role of a DPS is do damage no kiss the mobs. 10 minutes to kill the second boss. Or at least remove the quiter punishment in this situations.
If you think taking 10 minutes to kill a boss is bad it's a good thing you didn't play online RPGs back in the old days when they could take hours.0 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Facefister wrote: »
Apples and Styrofoam Oranges. Backthen everything was an endless grind. Gear was an endless grind, items were an endless grind, leveling was an endless grind. And I am not talking about killing 10 wolves.ZoS may you improve a DPS minimun damage requirement for vet dungeons please? In my last dungeon (vWS1) I was doing 47% of the group damage as a Frost Warden Tank, the annoying think i that all want to be a DPS when not all are, the role of a DPS is do damage no kiss the mobs. 10 minutes to kill the second boss. Or at least remove the quiter punishment in this situations.
If you think taking 10 minutes to kill a boss is bad it's a good thing you didn't play online RPGs back in the old days when they could take hours.
My post had nothing to do with apples and styrofoam oranges.
I wasn't trying to compare this game to older MMORPGs anyway. I was doing the opposite in fact - and pointing out how different they are. On those games, a 10 minute boss fight wouldn't have been anything to complain about. So for someone with my perspective - it's kind of amusing to watch players bemoan 10 minutes as if that's a long time to fight a boss.
Edited by Jeremy on August 27, 2018 7:00PM2 -
JinMori✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭CyberSkooma wrote: »Facefister wrote: »
Here is this "nearly all high dps DDs are dying non-stop in trials, while that 10k dps guy survives the entire fight" post. It's getting stale.Facefister wrote: »The mindset of the DDs, especially the bad ones, is that the tank and the healer should fulfill their role while their "role" of the Damage Dealer is a huge grey area which allows all kinds of shenanigans.
No, there is another kind of bad DPS. The kind that may be able to do ungodly amounts of damage, but if you fart in his general direction he'll keel over. They are the kind that refuse to adapt to any circumstances that fall outside his little meta box and would rather go on a tirade in general chat and/or the forums than make any adjustment to their tactics or stats because "muh deeps would drop!"
It's stupid and unrealistic.
Iv'e never seen it happening, and probably never will, because if you stop, and think about how stupid that thing is, you will soon realize why it makes no sense.
Do you really think that a dps who can do 40/50 or even 60 k dps will survive less then a noob who can barely do 10 k dps? Do you realize that there is a pretty big difference in skills? Do you realize that self heals are tied with the same stats that allow you to do damage? If i have a healer, i can pretty much tank any boss aside from the bosses that hit very hard, and i have the standard 17.1k health, what generally happens with a 10 k dps dd, when he's targeted by a boss is this: he/she runs around like a chicken without head, constantly bringing the boss out of ground aoes, lengthening the fight, and dying shortly after usually because of lack or resources ( yes, your 25 k health isn't gonna save you when you have 0 resources and are forced to heavy attack every 2 seconds) or they die because of mechanic.
This is what actually happens, not the 10k dps survives because 30 k health fairytale.
The issue that people are talking about, which I mainly see in trials, are DPS that are so concentrated on hitting a "parse" on a boss that they don't pay attention to mechanics and end up getting obliterated. It happens.
Let's think about it realistically.
This kind of stuff if it happens, it usually happens in normal trial, where if you have enough damage you can kill the boss before having to deal with mechanics, in vet trials, completely ignoring mechanics isn't viable, because some mechanics will kill you, so even the most hardcore parse freak will be forced to do at least the obligatory mechanics.
But with that aside, let's take into consideration the 2 options, you can either have a dps who deals 10 k dps, probably doesn't have a clue about mechanics, so he will die, and certainly doesn't have a clue about how to do dps and because of these 2 reasons he is basically useless to the group, or, you could have a dps who can deal 60/70 k dps, but ignores mechanics, even though he probably knows them, to deal the same damage that the second dps has done, the first dps would have to survive 6/7 times longer,. let's say that the 70 k dps survived 20 sec, it's 1.4 mil damage, to do this damage, the other dps will have to survive for 140 seconds, which he probably wont., and this is a pretty unrealistic scenario anyway.
I think i know which dps i would rather have in my group.... even in the most extreme scenario the second option is still objectively better than the first.Edited by JinMori on August 27, 2018 6:59PM4 -
LordSarevok✭✭✭✭I'm telling you! Licensing tests for all veteran content would help a lot! Just like good old Gran Turismo licensing tests. It needs to be a solo gauntlet that certifies you as a role.
Tanking it will be about absorbing damage, avoiding one shots, bar swap mechanics, bash/interrupts, mob placement, debuffs, pulling mobs inside AoE's, and resource management.
Dps certification, don't stand in stupid, don't stand behind the tank, bash/interrupts, mob priorities, pull at least 20k dps for vet content, 25 for vet dlc, 30 vet trials, 35k vet HM dlc/trials, and self sustain.
Don't play healer so wouldn't have valid input.1 -
LordSarevok✭✭✭✭And one other thing... If someone is competent enough to research a build, farm gear, practice rotation, and attain a 30k+ dps parse they are much less likely to die than the potato dps. And maybe the potato lives because they constantly shield with 100 points in bastion and have 30k health... (my experience in vFalkreath last night...) The other competent dps just up and left, the potato dps took almost 2 minutes (timed) to kill a 600k health Minotaur.Edited by LordSarevok on August 27, 2018 8:34PM1
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Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭LordSarevok wrote: »And one other thing... If someone is competent enough to gear, practice rotation, and attain a 30k+ dps parse they are much less likely to die than the potato dps. And maybe the potato lives because they constantly shield with 100 points in bastion and have 30k health...
30k health is probably excessive for a DPS class, I won't debate that.
But there is a tendency out there for players to neglect their defenses for more damage even to the point it means they are going to die - and I find this is especially the case among competent players who know what they are doing. They are just more interested in scoring higher on those DPS meters than they are at staying alive. That's also why they like to ignore "mechanics" that might negatively effect their numbers.Edited by Jeremy on August 27, 2018 8:38PM3 -
Valrien✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Facefister wrote: »
Apples and Styrofoam Oranges. Backthen everything was an endless grind. Gear was an endless grind, items were an endless grind, leveling was an endless grind. And I am not talking about killing 10 wolves.ZoS may you improve a DPS minimun damage requirement for vet dungeons please? In my last dungeon (vWS1) I was doing 47% of the group damage as a Frost Warden Tank, the annoying think i that all want to be a DPS when not all are, the role of a DPS is do damage no kiss the mobs. 10 minutes to kill the second boss. Or at least remove the quiter punishment in this situations.
If you think taking 10 minutes to kill a boss is bad it's a good thing you didn't play online RPGs back in the old days when they could take hours.
My post had nothing to do with apples and styrofoam oranges.
I wasn't trying to compare this game to older MMORPGs anyway. I was doing the opposite in fact - and pointing out how different they are. On those games, a 10 minute boss fight wouldn't have been anything to complain about. So for someone with my perspective - it's kind of amusing to watch players bemoan 10 minutes as if that's a long time to fight a boss.
And for this game, it is.
Your mindset has absolutely nothing to do with this. If 10 minutes was average for you, youd have been angry if your fight took half an hour...
Same principal. I generally dislike gamers that think they are superior because they're "old school"Valrien Dravic -- Level 50 Dunmeri Sorcerer (EP)
Garahel Dravic -- Level 50 Bosmeri Nightblade (EP)Tamriel Unlimited was a mistake. One Tamriel was a bigger mistake1 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Facefister wrote: »
Apples and Styrofoam Oranges. Backthen everything was an endless grind. Gear was an endless grind, items were an endless grind, leveling was an endless grind. And I am not talking about killing 10 wolves.ZoS may you improve a DPS minimun damage requirement for vet dungeons please? In my last dungeon (vWS1) I was doing 47% of the group damage as a Frost Warden Tank, the annoying think i that all want to be a DPS when not all are, the role of a DPS is do damage no kiss the mobs. 10 minutes to kill the second boss. Or at least remove the quiter punishment in this situations.
If you think taking 10 minutes to kill a boss is bad it's a good thing you didn't play online RPGs back in the old days when they could take hours.
My post had nothing to do with apples and styrofoam oranges.
I wasn't trying to compare this game to older MMORPGs anyway. I was doing the opposite in fact - and pointing out how different they are. On those games, a 10 minute boss fight wouldn't have been anything to complain about. So for someone with my perspective - it's kind of amusing to watch players bemoan 10 minutes as if that's a long time to fight a boss.
And for this game, it is.
Your mindset has absolutely nothing to do with this. If 10 minutes was average for you, youd have been angry if your fight took half an hour...
Same principal. I generally dislike gamers that think they are superior because they're "old school"
I don't know what I said that makes you think I believe I'm "superior". You simply made that part of up - because I never said any such thing.
I just think it's funny how drastically MMORPGs have changed over my life time - where 10 minutes has now turned into a player's idea of an excessively long boss fight. Back in the old days 10 minutes could have been a trash pull.
But that's ok if you "dislike" me because of that. I"ll try not to let that hurt my feelings.
Edited by Jeremy on August 27, 2018 8:46PM2 -
Splattercat_83✭✭✭✭Facefister wrote: »You can be sure about that your 10k ps dd dies way more often than that guy who is steadily pulling off 40k+ dps
Maybe. On the other hand I've had personal experience with ultra high DPS players who die rather quickly after the pull and spend most of their time berating the rest of the party for not "playing correctly". Meanwhile the fellow with sub-par DPS is still alive and doing much more overall damage than the elitist because he doesn't get blown away by a stiff breeze. Actually, even the healer and the tank are doing more damage. Because they aren't dead.
I've heard comments that 16K health is good enough...I find that starting at at least 20K keeps you in the battle. This was the problem with most of my characters...health was too low.
16 health is more than enough if you know mechanics and where damage is coming from. If you dont then that number needs to be around 19-20k4 -
Nerdrage9000✭✭✭✭Yes, but this post misses the point.
Do the DPS have a cool outfit? Everyone knows that a cool outfit is like a 20k dps boost right there.
And now you know...;)3 -
Valrien✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Facefister wrote: »
Apples and Styrofoam Oranges. Backthen everything was an endless grind. Gear was an endless grind, items were an endless grind, leveling was an endless grind. And I am not talking about killing 10 wolves.ZoS may you improve a DPS minimun damage requirement for vet dungeons please? In my last dungeon (vWS1) I was doing 47% of the group damage as a Frost Warden Tank, the annoying think i that all want to be a DPS when not all are, the role of a DPS is do damage no kiss the mobs. 10 minutes to kill the second boss. Or at least remove the quiter punishment in this situations.
If you think taking 10 minutes to kill a boss is bad it's a good thing you didn't play online RPGs back in the old days when they could take hours.
My post had nothing to do with apples and styrofoam oranges.
I wasn't trying to compare this game to older MMORPGs anyway. I was doing the opposite in fact - and pointing out how different they are. On those games, a 10 minute boss fight wouldn't have been anything to complain about. So for someone with my perspective - it's kind of amusing to watch players bemoan 10 minutes as if that's a long time to fight a boss.
And for this game, it is.
Your mindset has absolutely nothing to do with this. If 10 minutes was average for you, youd have been angry if your fight took half an hour...
Same principal. I generally dislike gamers that think they are superior because they're "old school"
I don't know what I said that makes you think I believe I'm "superior". You simply made that part of up - because I never said any such thing.
I just think it's funny how drastically MMORPGs have changed over my life time - where 10 minutes has now turned into a player's idea of an excessively long boss fight. Back in the old days 10 minutes could have been a trash pull.
But that's ok if you "dislike" me because of that. I"ll try not to let that hurt my feelings.
Well when you say things like that it brings to mind the "Back in my day, we used to walk uphill both ways in the snow to get to school" types that think that they are instantly better than you because of it.
May not necessarily be you, but those people exist and their posts are VERY reminiscent of yoursValrien Dravic -- Level 50 Dunmeri Sorcerer (EP)
Garahel Dravic -- Level 50 Bosmeri Nightblade (EP)Tamriel Unlimited was a mistake. One Tamriel was a bigger mistake0 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Facefister wrote: »
Apples and Styrofoam Oranges. Backthen everything was an endless grind. Gear was an endless grind, items were an endless grind, leveling was an endless grind. And I am not talking about killing 10 wolves.ZoS may you improve a DPS minimun damage requirement for vet dungeons please? In my last dungeon (vWS1) I was doing 47% of the group damage as a Frost Warden Tank, the annoying think i that all want to be a DPS when not all are, the role of a DPS is do damage no kiss the mobs. 10 minutes to kill the second boss. Or at least remove the quiter punishment in this situations.
If you think taking 10 minutes to kill a boss is bad it's a good thing you didn't play online RPGs back in the old days when they could take hours.
My post had nothing to do with apples and styrofoam oranges.
I wasn't trying to compare this game to older MMORPGs anyway. I was doing the opposite in fact - and pointing out how different they are. On those games, a 10 minute boss fight wouldn't have been anything to complain about. So for someone with my perspective - it's kind of amusing to watch players bemoan 10 minutes as if that's a long time to fight a boss.
And for this game, it is.
Your mindset has absolutely nothing to do with this. If 10 minutes was average for you, youd have been angry if your fight took half an hour...
Same principal. I generally dislike gamers that think they are superior because they're "old school"
I don't know what I said that makes you think I believe I'm "superior". You simply made that part of up - because I never said any such thing.
I just think it's funny how drastically MMORPGs have changed over my life time - where 10 minutes has now turned into a player's idea of an excessively long boss fight. Back in the old days 10 minutes could have been a trash pull.
But that's ok if you "dislike" me because of that. I"ll try not to let that hurt my feelings.
Well when you say things like that it brings to mind the "Back in my day, we used to walk uphill both ways in the snow to get to school" types that think that they are instantly better than you because of it.
May not necessarily be you, but those people exist and their posts are VERY reminiscent of yours
I fail to see how reminiscing about the past means a person is trying to come across as your superior. It might be you are just a bit too touchy on this subject.
As I explained - it's more about sharing a different perspective. Because someone who was used to hour long boss fights on MMORPGs is probably going to find it amusing when they see 10 minutes being used to describe a long boss fight on one. Just as someone who had to walk through miles of snow to get to school might find it funny to listen to those complaining about a 10 minute drive.
It's just a matter of perspective. That's all. I doubt it has anything to do with trying to be your superior.Edited by Jeremy on August 27, 2018 9:53PM2 -
Glurin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Facefister wrote: »
The problem with low dps people are that they're so ignorant. They don't want to listen - They'll rather seek an excuse to blame you than better themselves.Shezzarrine wrote: »I only care about DPS in dungeons where the HM is a DPS race but thats it.
If theres no DPS race then it doesnt matter.
In fact moon hunter keep NEEDS to be done slowly unless your DDs have like 70k DPS each or something stupid like that otherwise you'll trigger multiple boss mechanics and get wiped as a result. So having a minimum DPS requirement would just be toxic tbh especially when they're intentionally slowing down dungeons even hardmodes like that.
Though I will admit the wardens (lightning mages or w/e) are a small DPS race but so long as there are never 3 up at once everything is fine tbh.
and just FYI 30k-40k DPS is more than enough for nearly all content baring Trial HMs.
Yes 30-40k is more than sufficient for any dungeon, but that's not what we are talking about here. You may consider that low dps, which is more or less true for end game, but we are talking low dps as sub-15k.
I honestly don't think I've ever had more than one or two pugs pulling in that 30-40k range. This is one reason why there are so few tanks and heals in queues (other than it being a less desirable role to most people) it's that they don't want to spend 50 min in an otherwise 10 min dungeon. Let alone vDLC where even if there isn't a dps check the fights can be much harder on ta ks and heals the longer they go on, when mistakes start to mount.
I don't believe dps requirements are the way to solve this, but can we at least acknowledge this as a problem?
Yeah no 30k-40k for me is honestly where most people should be at in terms of general population (This is of course for DDs and not tanks and healers lol) so I have no expectations of people generally when it comes to dps so long as they can pull their weight, anything higher than 42k is for over achievers lol
Yeah its totally fine to acknowledge the problem and I agree but if we do nothing with it then its pointless. Right now as far as I can see putting another barrier on the content would just be bad for new players and the player base generally (as you probably agree), My issue with all this is that instead of actually teaching new players and going out of their way to help people, they instead want to just block people who dont know any better from doing the content which imo is elitist as hell.
Acknowledge the problem fine, but we should teach those who have lower DPS how to be better. More people need to do this instead of just kicking them from group finder, ADD THEM and HELP them. I do it all the time when someone asks in chat or when we get a random running with our usual group. Always help them. Its the only way to reduce the problem of people joining with virtually no DPS.
"You're a meta slave!"
"But do you survive longer than 12 seconds?"
It's the high DPS people who show ignorance and stubbornness more often. Why? Because they think they know everything already. They don't think they can make any mistakes because "look at muh deeps!" Those low dps people know they are low dps and are usually willing to improve. As long as you're not being an *** about it anyway. Instead of yelling at them or telling them what to do and trying to get them to completely rebuild their character from scratch, try offering suggestions that are applicable to what they seem to be going for."He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster...when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss also gazes into you..."4 -
Glurin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Splattercat_83 wrote: »Facefister wrote: »You can be sure about that your 10k ps dd dies way more often than that guy who is steadily pulling off 40k+ dps
Maybe. On the other hand I've had personal experience with ultra high DPS players who die rather quickly after the pull and spend most of their time berating the rest of the party for not "playing correctly". Meanwhile the fellow with sub-par DPS is still alive and doing much more overall damage than the elitist because he doesn't get blown away by a stiff breeze. Actually, even the healer and the tank are doing more damage. Because they aren't dead.
I've heard comments that 16K health is good enough...I find that starting at at least 20K keeps you in the battle. This was the problem with most of my characters...health was too low.
16 health is more than enough if you know mechanics and where damage is coming from. If you dont then that number needs to be around 19-20k
Well yeah, if you know the mechanics and where the damage is coming from and can successfully avoid it 100% of the time, 16 points of health is more than you'll ever need.
The problem of course is when you can't avoid it 100% of the time. That's not necessarily indicative of a lack of knowledge or skill. Any number of things can go wrong. Lag, bugs, a poorly timed sneeze, cats... Hell, maybe you just goofed and hit the wrong button. Stuff happens. It doesn't hurt to have a buffer in place to help mitigate the impact it can have."He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster...when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss also gazes into you..."1 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Facefister wrote: »
The problem with low dps people are that they're so ignorant. They don't want to listen - They'll rather seek an excuse to blame you than better themselves.Shezzarrine wrote: »I only care about DPS in dungeons where the HM is a DPS race but thats it.
If theres no DPS race then it doesnt matter.
In fact moon hunter keep NEEDS to be done slowly unless your DDs have like 70k DPS each or something stupid like that otherwise you'll trigger multiple boss mechanics and get wiped as a result. So having a minimum DPS requirement would just be toxic tbh especially when they're intentionally slowing down dungeons even hardmodes like that.
Though I will admit the wardens (lightning mages or w/e) are a small DPS race but so long as there are never 3 up at once everything is fine tbh.
and just FYI 30k-40k DPS is more than enough for nearly all content baring Trial HMs.
Yes 30-40k is more than sufficient for any dungeon, but that's not what we are talking about here. You may consider that low dps, which is more or less true for end game, but we are talking low dps as sub-15k.
I honestly don't think I've ever had more than one or two pugs pulling in that 30-40k range. This is one reason why there are so few tanks and heals in queues (other than it being a less desirable role to most people) it's that they don't want to spend 50 min in an otherwise 10 min dungeon. Let alone vDLC where even if there isn't a dps check the fights can be much harder on ta ks and heals the longer they go on, when mistakes start to mount.
I don't believe dps requirements are the way to solve this, but can we at least acknowledge this as a problem?
Yeah no 30k-40k for me is honestly where most people should be at in terms of general population (This is of course for DDs and not tanks and healers lol) so I have no expectations of people generally when it comes to dps so long as they can pull their weight, anything higher than 42k is for over achievers lol
Yeah its totally fine to acknowledge the problem and I agree but if we do nothing with it then its pointless. Right now as far as I can see putting another barrier on the content would just be bad for new players and the player base generally (as you probably agree), My issue with all this is that instead of actually teaching new players and going out of their way to help people, they instead want to just block people who dont know any better from doing the content which imo is elitist as hell.
Acknowledge the problem fine, but we should teach those who have lower DPS how to be better. More people need to do this instead of just kicking them from group finder, ADD THEM and HELP them. I do it all the time when someone asks in chat or when we get a random running with our usual group. Always help them. Its the only way to reduce the problem of people joining with virtually no DPS.
"You're a meta slave!"
"But do you survive longer than 12 seconds?"
It's the high DPS people who show ignorance and stubbornness more often. Why? Because they think they know everything already. They don't think they can make any mistakes because "look at muh deeps!" Those low dps people know they are low dps and are usually willing to improve. As long as you're not being an *** about it anyway. Instead of yelling at them or telling them what to do and trying to get them to completely rebuild their character from scratch, try offering suggestions that are applicable to what they seem to be going for.
That's often my experience as well.
I see a lot of high-end damage-dealers get one-shotted by bosses over and over again because they already believe their build is perfect and refuse to add more health and defense at the expense of their coveted deeps.
That being said: and even when you take into account their deaths (and assuming someone is nice enough to keep spending crystals to raise them) their damage if often good enough to make up the difference. So even with repeated deaths - they are still better than say a horrible player who spams light attacks. But ideally I agree with you. The best party member is one who is flexible and willing to adapt to the situation instead of stubbornly cling to some guide they read on the internet that enables them to top the DPS charts.Edited by Jeremy on August 27, 2018 10:12PM3 -
yurimodin✭✭✭meanwhile on the other side of the A-Hole coin.....I queued as a tank for a random the other day and it threw me into Darkshade2 with 3 level players from lvl 25-35 (I am just under cp300). We get to the little mini-boss around the first corner and we barely beat him.
So I look at the group and see what their levels were (didn't look when we started). I told them there is no way we can finish on level2 So ported us all out and then back in as Darkshade1.
When we got done I asked them if they were new and they all said these were their only toons. They were apologetic about not knowing what they were doing and that I was the only tank they have ever had that did not rush past all the mobs trying to speed-run it. They were floored that I was looking back to make sure they were behind me before pulling aggro during the run. I told them they actually did really well with teamwork etc.
I made some new friends that day........but this was on normal, I can understand some frustration on Vet.
I guess not being able to hit 30K DPS is why I have a Tank and a Healer.4 -
Drdeath20✭✭✭✭✭
✭LordSarevok wrote: »I'm telling you! Licensing tests for all veteran content would help a lot! Just like good old Gran Turismo licensing tests. It needs to be a solo gauntlet that certifies you as a role.
Tanking it will be about absorbing damage, avoiding one shots, bar swap mechanics, bash/interrupts, mob placement, debuffs, pulling mobs inside AoE's, and resource management.
Dps certification, don't stand in stupid, don't stand behind the tank, bash/interrupts, mob priorities, pull at least 20k dps for vet content, 25 for vet dlc, 30 vet trials, 35k vet HM dlc/trials, and self sustain.
Don't play healer so wouldn't have valid input.
A vet dlc Healer needs to:
keep rapid regen 100% uptime on group in battle.
Have either orbs or shards available for group.
A oh shoot heal synergy
Have combat prayer or some other kind of big heal
Do atleast 20k dps with ultimates0