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PvP on this game needs work.
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Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭leepalmer95 wrote: »leepalmer95 wrote: »leepalmer95 wrote: »This forum is like walking on eggshells. But I'll risk being disruptive again and attempt to carry on this discussion only because I actually do like this game and would like to see its pvp design improved.
First: I decided to take seriously the "get gud!", "L2P", "your build is traaaash!" criticisms that suggested it was my lack of "buffs" that were responsible for such weak heals (and not the game design itself). So I slapped on Jorvuld's Guidance/Vanus and proceeded to buff myself with minor healing and major healing with the ritual Mundus. To my shock - my breath of life still critted for... yep... you guessed it... 7kish.
So that was my mistake for taking you seriously. I guess there is a reason you rely on such lame retorts as "l2P" as your counter arguments. If I had no clue what I was talking about I would probably rely on such lame and negative platitudesfor my arguments as well.
Tempars already get minor mending.
Again buff your stats, also sort of your cp. You have cp into crit heals, healing done and healing received right? because they all buff your heals.
Yes I know, that's how I was able to apply minor healing to myself.
And please take more time to read the full context of my thread, because I am talking about non-CP here.
So your complaint is you can only heal 35% of your max hp and heal someone else as well in 1 cast?
But again stack dmg.
I explain my criticisms as it relates to healing on this game PvP about as well as I can in my opening post. But basically: my criticism/complaint is that damage > healing on this game.
Dmg should always be > healing.
When dmg is < healing then you have the mess that is cp pvp. Where a healer can tank 5 people while healing a zerg,
Try making yourself more tanky, even in non cp i've seen magplars tank 4 people and heal easy enough.
Then those four people sucked badly. Because no "magplar" is going to out heal 4 good players attacking them, I don't care how "tanky" they are.
On most games healing does > damage. And it works much better when it does IMHO. This game's PvP is way too zergy - and part of the reason for that is this game's incredibly weak heals.Edited by Jeremy on August 20, 2018 11:04PM0 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭OrphanHelgen wrote: »healing rotation is same as dps rotation. Put healing over time before spam breath of life. And yes, you need major sorcery and mending.
I"m not discussing healing rotations here though. I am discussing the raw power of the heals themselves and how they fail to counter incoming damage.
But if your point is you can lay down retribution aura, use rapid regeneration - then proceed to spam breath of life and that is somehow going to work it doesn't. A good damage-dealer will have no problems out-damaging the healing numbers that combination is capable of.
Edited by Jeremy on August 20, 2018 11:03PM0 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭chesspilgrim wrote: »Heals should never out do damage in the long run
why?
that is the type of statement that implies it is true in all circumstances, and never is a long time. do you intend to say that within the context of pvp? because i don’t see how it could be true for pve. my assumption is that you refer to 1v1, but please correct me if that is not the case.
but, assuming you meant pvp 1v1 only, my question remains. why should healing never be greater than damage in the long run?
I don't understand the argument either.
That is usually the whole concept behind healing - which is to heal back the damage being done to you. Otherwise: I'm not sure what the point of healing even is to begin with if it can't restore the amount of health being lost. I guess so you can pointlessly waste your magicka before dying - which is a fair description of how healing operates on this game.Edited by Jeremy on August 20, 2018 11:34PM0 -
leepalmer95✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭leepalmer95 wrote: »leepalmer95 wrote: »leepalmer95 wrote: »This forum is like walking on eggshells. But I'll risk being disruptive again and attempt to carry on this discussion only because I actually do like this game and would like to see its pvp design improved.
First: I decided to take seriously the "get gud!", "L2P", "your build is traaaash!" criticisms that suggested it was my lack of "buffs" that were responsible for such weak heals (and not the game design itself). So I slapped on Jorvuld's Guidance/Vanus and proceeded to buff myself with minor healing and major healing with the ritual Mundus. To my shock - my breath of life still critted for... yep... you guessed it... 7kish.
So that was my mistake for taking you seriously. I guess there is a reason you rely on such lame retorts as "l2P" as your counter arguments. If I had no clue what I was talking about I would probably rely on such lame and negative platitudesfor my arguments as well.
Tempars already get minor mending.
Again buff your stats, also sort of your cp. You have cp into crit heals, healing done and healing received right? because they all buff your heals.
Yes I know, that's how I was able to apply minor healing to myself.
And please take more time to read the full context of my thread, because I am talking about non-CP here.
So your complaint is you can only heal 35% of your max hp and heal someone else as well in 1 cast?
But again stack dmg.
I explain my criticisms as it relates to healing on this game PvP about as well as I can in my opening post. But basically: my criticism/complaint is that damage > healing on this game.
Dmg should always be > healing.
When dmg is < healing then you have the mess that is cp pvp. Where a healer can tank 5 people while healing a zerg,
Try making yourself more tanky, even in non cp i've seen magplars tank 4 people and heal easy enough.
Then those four people sucked badly. Because no "magplar" is going to out heal 4 good players attacking them, I don't care how "tanky" they are.
On most games healing does > damage. And it works much better when it does IMHO. This game's PvP is way too zergy - and part of the reason for that is this game's incredibly weak heals.
No class is going to outheal 4 good players hitting them. What's your point?
A magplar can easily survive 2 good players on them built right in non cp. Keep hots up, purge debuffs, use breath when needed and rotate healing ults, either resto or remembrance, resto if you can survive with it and then heavy resto while its up.PS4 EU DC
Current CP : 756+
I have every character level 50, both a magicka and stamina version.
RIP my effort to get 5x v16 characters...0 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭leepalmer95 wrote: »leepalmer95 wrote: »leepalmer95 wrote: »leepalmer95 wrote: »This forum is like walking on eggshells. But I'll risk being disruptive again and attempt to carry on this discussion only because I actually do like this game and would like to see its pvp design improved.
First: I decided to take seriously the "get gud!", "L2P", "your build is traaaash!" criticisms that suggested it was my lack of "buffs" that were responsible for such weak heals (and not the game design itself). So I slapped on Jorvuld's Guidance/Vanus and proceeded to buff myself with minor healing and major healing with the ritual Mundus. To my shock - my breath of life still critted for... yep... you guessed it... 7kish.
So that was my mistake for taking you seriously. I guess there is a reason you rely on such lame retorts as "l2P" as your counter arguments. If I had no clue what I was talking about I would probably rely on such lame and negative platitudesfor my arguments as well.
Tempars already get minor mending.
Again buff your stats, also sort of your cp. You have cp into crit heals, healing done and healing received right? because they all buff your heals.
Yes I know, that's how I was able to apply minor healing to myself.
And please take more time to read the full context of my thread, because I am talking about non-CP here.
So your complaint is you can only heal 35% of your max hp and heal someone else as well in 1 cast?
But again stack dmg.
I explain my criticisms as it relates to healing on this game PvP about as well as I can in my opening post. But basically: my criticism/complaint is that damage > healing on this game.
Dmg should always be > healing.
When dmg is < healing then you have the mess that is cp pvp. Where a healer can tank 5 people while healing a zerg,
Try making yourself more tanky, even in non cp i've seen magplars tank 4 people and heal easy enough.
Then those four people sucked badly. Because no "magplar" is going to out heal 4 good players attacking them, I don't care how "tanky" they are.
On most games healing does > damage. And it works much better when it does IMHO. This game's PvP is way too zergy - and part of the reason for that is this game's incredibly weak heals.
No class is going to outheal 4 good players hitting them. What's your point?
A magplar can easily survive 2 good players on them built right in non cp. Keep hots up, purge debuffs, use breath when needed and rotate healing ults, either resto or remembrance, resto if you can survive with it and then heavy resto while its up.
My point was that your earlier statement that a magplar could outheal the damage of 4 players was false. Because they can't (which it now seems you agree with). What someone is capable of against terrible players isn't relevant.
And a magplar can't even out-heal one good DD attacking them - let alone easily do it. Damage is simply greater than healing on this game and is not an effective counter for damage. That is my complaint/criticism.
To quote Mursie from an earlier post:
a healer in this game that truly goes full heals can not win a 1v1 against a DD and further - will likely eventually succomb to resource fatigue and die to DD because - pursuant to original point, healing is subpar to damage in this game.
Edited by Jeremy on August 20, 2018 11:46PM0 -
leepalmer95✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭leepalmer95 wrote: »leepalmer95 wrote: »leepalmer95 wrote: »leepalmer95 wrote: »This forum is like walking on eggshells. But I'll risk being disruptive again and attempt to carry on this discussion only because I actually do like this game and would like to see its pvp design improved.
First: I decided to take seriously the "get gud!", "L2P", "your build is traaaash!" criticisms that suggested it was my lack of "buffs" that were responsible for such weak heals (and not the game design itself). So I slapped on Jorvuld's Guidance/Vanus and proceeded to buff myself with minor healing and major healing with the ritual Mundus. To my shock - my breath of life still critted for... yep... you guessed it... 7kish.
So that was my mistake for taking you seriously. I guess there is a reason you rely on such lame retorts as "l2P" as your counter arguments. If I had no clue what I was talking about I would probably rely on such lame and negative platitudesfor my arguments as well.
Tempars already get minor mending.
Again buff your stats, also sort of your cp. You have cp into crit heals, healing done and healing received right? because they all buff your heals.
Yes I know, that's how I was able to apply minor healing to myself.
And please take more time to read the full context of my thread, because I am talking about non-CP here.
So your complaint is you can only heal 35% of your max hp and heal someone else as well in 1 cast?
But again stack dmg.
I explain my criticisms as it relates to healing on this game PvP about as well as I can in my opening post. But basically: my criticism/complaint is that damage > healing on this game.
Dmg should always be > healing.
When dmg is < healing then you have the mess that is cp pvp. Where a healer can tank 5 people while healing a zerg,
Try making yourself more tanky, even in non cp i've seen magplars tank 4 people and heal easy enough.
Then those four people sucked badly. Because no "magplar" is going to out heal 4 good players attacking them, I don't care how "tanky" they are.
On most games healing does > damage. And it works much better when it does IMHO. This game's PvP is way too zergy - and part of the reason for that is this game's incredibly weak heals.
No class is going to outheal 4 good players hitting them. What's your point?
A magplar can easily survive 2 good players on them built right in non cp. Keep hots up, purge debuffs, use breath when needed and rotate healing ults, either resto or remembrance, resto if you can survive with it and then heavy resto while its up.
My point was that your earlier statement that a magplar could outheal the damage of 4 players was false. Because they can't (which it now seems you agree with...).
A magplar can't even out-heal one good DD attacking them - let alone easily do it. Damage is simply greater than healing on this game and is not an effective counter for damage.
To quote Mursie from an earlier post:
a healer in this game that truly goes full heals can not win a 1v1 against a DD and further - will likely eventually succomb to resource fatigue and die to DD because - pursuant to original point, healing is subpar to damage in this game.
You said 4 good players, i said 4 players.
I've both tanked and watched people tank 4 players in bg's.
A magplar can easy not die to a stam dd in a 1v1. Easy.
Damage is not greater than healing.
A full healer simply will not die 1v1, then will not be out of resources as its too easy to sustain in 1v1.
Look at healing ults compared to dmg ult.
I can db a group of 4 for like 4-8k each depending on builds and crits.
I can use rememberance have heal everyone for 4-6k /s for 6s.
Add up the dmg, add up the healing.PS4 EU DC
Current CP : 756+
I have every character level 50, both a magicka and stamina version.
RIP my effort to get 5x v16 characters...0 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭leepalmer95 wrote: »
A full healer simply will not die 1v1, then will not be out of resources as its too easy to sustain in 1v1.leepalmer95 wrote: »leepalmer95 wrote: »leepalmer95 wrote: »leepalmer95 wrote: »This forum is like walking on eggshells. But I'll risk being disruptive again and attempt to carry on this discussion only because I actually do like this game and would like to see its pvp design improved.
First: I decided to take seriously the "get gud!", "L2P", "your build is traaaash!" criticisms that suggested it was my lack of "buffs" that were responsible for such weak heals (and not the game design itself). So I slapped on Jorvuld's Guidance/Vanus and proceeded to buff myself with minor healing and major healing with the ritual Mundus. To my shock - my breath of life still critted for... yep... you guessed it... 7kish.
So that was my mistake for taking you seriously. I guess there is a reason you rely on such lame retorts as "l2P" as your counter arguments. If I had no clue what I was talking about I would probably rely on such lame and negative platitudesfor my arguments as well.
Tempars already get minor mending.
Again buff your stats, also sort of your cp. You have cp into crit heals, healing done and healing received right? because they all buff your heals.
Yes I know, that's how I was able to apply minor healing to myself.
And please take more time to read the full context of my thread, because I am talking about non-CP here.
So your complaint is you can only heal 35% of your max hp and heal someone else as well in 1 cast?
But again stack dmg.
I explain my criticisms as it relates to healing on this game PvP about as well as I can in my opening post. But basically: my criticism/complaint is that damage > healing on this game.
Dmg should always be > healing.
When dmg is < healing then you have the mess that is cp pvp. Where a healer can tank 5 people while healing a zerg,
Try making yourself more tanky, even in non cp i've seen magplars tank 4 people and heal easy enough.
Then those four people sucked badly. Because no "magplar" is going to out heal 4 good players attacking them, I don't care how "tanky" they are.
On most games healing does > damage. And it works much better when it does IMHO. This game's PvP is way too zergy - and part of the reason for that is this game's incredibly weak heals.
No class is going to outheal 4 good players hitting them. What's your point?
A magplar can easily survive 2 good players on them built right in non cp. Keep hots up, purge debuffs, use breath when needed and rotate healing ults, either resto or remembrance, resto if you can survive with it and then heavy resto while its up.
My point was that your earlier statement that a magplar could outheal the damage of 4 players was false. Because they can't (which it now seems you agree with...).
A magplar can't even out-heal one good DD attacking them - let alone easily do it. Damage is simply greater than healing on this game and is not an effective counter for damage.
To quote Mursie from an earlier post:
a healer in this game that truly goes full heals can not win a 1v1 against a DD and further - will likely eventually succomb to resource fatigue and die to DD because - pursuant to original point, healing is subpar to damage in this game.
lol
Sorry, but no - that's actually not the way it works on this game. Do you play on Ebonheart Pact? If so - let's put this to the test. I want you to get your "full healer" magplar and I'll introduce you to some damage dealers I know and let's see if you can keep yourself alive by healing.
What do you say? I'll give you the opportunity to prove me wrong.
I have to head out - but I'll check back in later to see if you take me up on my challenge.Edited by Jeremy on August 20, 2018 11:54PM0 -
Waffennacht✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The point of healing isn't to be or to make players invincible
The point of healing is to extend TTK.
An extended TTK provides a good player an opportunity to have more offensive windows and win
Longer TTK means more mistakes from your opponent, so you can win.
You're right healing<damage, but that's fine because the difference in TTK is enough to make a difference in combat for good players.1 -
leepalmer95✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭leepalmer95 wrote: »
A full healer simply will not die 1v1, then will not be out of resources as its too easy to sustain in 1v1.leepalmer95 wrote: »leepalmer95 wrote: »leepalmer95 wrote: »leepalmer95 wrote: »This forum is like walking on eggshells. But I'll risk being disruptive again and attempt to carry on this discussion only because I actually do like this game and would like to see its pvp design improved.
First: I decided to take seriously the "get gud!", "L2P", "your build is traaaash!" criticisms that suggested it was my lack of "buffs" that were responsible for such weak heals (and not the game design itself). So I slapped on Jorvuld's Guidance/Vanus and proceeded to buff myself with minor healing and major healing with the ritual Mundus. To my shock - my breath of life still critted for... yep... you guessed it... 7kish.
So that was my mistake for taking you seriously. I guess there is a reason you rely on such lame retorts as "l2P" as your counter arguments. If I had no clue what I was talking about I would probably rely on such lame and negative platitudesfor my arguments as well.
Tempars already get minor mending.
Again buff your stats, also sort of your cp. You have cp into crit heals, healing done and healing received right? because they all buff your heals.
Yes I know, that's how I was able to apply minor healing to myself.
And please take more time to read the full context of my thread, because I am talking about non-CP here.
So your complaint is you can only heal 35% of your max hp and heal someone else as well in 1 cast?
But again stack dmg.
I explain my criticisms as it relates to healing on this game PvP about as well as I can in my opening post. But basically: my criticism/complaint is that damage > healing on this game.
Dmg should always be > healing.
When dmg is < healing then you have the mess that is cp pvp. Where a healer can tank 5 people while healing a zerg,
Try making yourself more tanky, even in non cp i've seen magplars tank 4 people and heal easy enough.
Then those four people sucked badly. Because no "magplar" is going to out heal 4 good players attacking them, I don't care how "tanky" they are.
On most games healing does > damage. And it works much better when it does IMHO. This game's PvP is way too zergy - and part of the reason for that is this game's incredibly weak heals.
No class is going to outheal 4 good players hitting them. What's your point?
A magplar can easily survive 2 good players on them built right in non cp. Keep hots up, purge debuffs, use breath when needed and rotate healing ults, either resto or remembrance, resto if you can survive with it and then heavy resto while its up.
My point was that your earlier statement that a magplar could outheal the damage of 4 players was false. Because they can't (which it now seems you agree with...).
A magplar can't even out-heal one good DD attacking them - let alone easily do it. Damage is simply greater than healing on this game and is not an effective counter for damage.
To quote Mursie from an earlier post:
a healer in this game that truly goes full heals can not win a 1v1 against a DD and further - will likely eventually succomb to resource fatigue and die to DD because - pursuant to original point, healing is subpar to damage in this game.
lol
Sorry, but no. Do you play on Ebonheart Pact? If so - let's put this to the test. I want you to get your "full healer" magplar and I'll introduce you to some damage dealers I know and let's see if you can keep yourself alive by healing.
What do you say?
I'm on ps4 eu.
I'm not sure if you play a different game or something. Pretty sure everyone knows you can't kill certain buildings, including full healers 1v1. All they have to do really is build tanky throw on hot's and survive.PS4 EU DC
Current CP : 756+
I have every character level 50, both a magicka and stamina version.
RIP my effort to get 5x v16 characters...0 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Waffennacht wrote: »The point of healing isn't to be or to make players invincible
The point of healing is to extend TTK.
An extended TTK provides a good player an opportunity to have more offensive windows and win
Longer TTK means more mistakes from your opponent, so you can win.
You're right healing<damage, but that's fine because the difference in TTK is enough to make a difference in combat for good players.
On this game that's pretty accurate. To paraphrase:
It's only purpose is to provide a damage dealer with an opportunity to have more offensive windows and win.
That's not a bad way to describe it. So I don't have a beef with your post.
We disagree that it's fine. But that's alright. We can agree to disagree about that.Edited by Jeremy on August 20, 2018 11:55PM1 -
Waffennacht✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Waffennacht wrote: »The point of healing isn't to be or to make players invincible
The point of healing is to extend TTK.
An extended TTK provides a good player an opportunity to have more offensive windows and win
Longer TTK means more mistakes from your opponent, so you can win.
You're right healing<damage, but that's fine because the difference in TTK is enough to make a difference in combat for good players.
On this game that's pretty accurate. To paraphrase:
It's only purpose is to provide a damage dealer with an opportunity to have more offensive windows and win.
That's not a bad way to describe it. So I don't have a beef with your post.
We disagree that it's fine. But that's alright. We can agree to disagree about that.
For me, why I can't really support healing to be as strong as I think you want it; is because of the huge skill gap between premade/good healer groups and those without.
I imagine signing up for a BG, I get a Stam NB, a mag Sorc, myself, and a Stam khajiit resto healer PuG, another team has a healer like you.
We are screwed, and I mean not just gonna lose, but we will lose very very hard.
PuGing would be that more difficult1
