PvP on this game needs work.

chesspilgrim · August 2018

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Heals should never out do damage in the long run

why?

that is the type of statement that implies it is true in all circumstances, and never is a long time. do you intend to say that within the context of pvp? because i don’t see how it could be true for pve. my assumption is that you refer to 1v1, but please correct me if that is not the case.

but, assuming you meant pvp 1v1 only, my question remains. why should healing never be greater than damage in the long run?

Grimhallow · August 2018

chesspilgrim wrote: »

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Heals should never out do damage in the long run

why?

that is the type of statement that implies it is true in all circumstances, and never is a long time. do you intend to say that within the context of pvp? because i don’t see how it could be true for pve. my assumption is that you refer to 1v1, but please correct me if that is not the case.

but, assuming you meant pvp 1v1 only, my question remains. why should healing never be greater than damage in the long run?

He is talking about PvP (this is a PvP subforum so it's always safe to assume that statements fall under that umbrella).

The reason is that when healing outdoes damage over a prolonged period- you get stalemates. Stalemates are boring game design. That is also the reason why defensive abilities cost more than offensive abilities. Your goal should be to counter-attack and kill your opponent, not just to survive your opponent. ZoS designs the game around this principle to help deter invincible ball groups, and 1vX block tanks- which can be really frustrating for new and old players alike.

Try dueling a PvE tank and you'll understand the reality of this. The battle becomes one of attrition of wills more than it does resources. First person to get bored and walk away "loses"- and it suuuucks.

While the statement is meant only to cover PvP scenarios, I would still argue that damage is a better raw form of defense than healing. One example of this would be maelstrom arena. Have you ever tried beating it with a heal-centric character? (By that I mean a character who's primary focus is healing). It is near impossible. On the other hand it can be a breeze with a high DPS build. This is because killing enemies quickly limits the amount of possible incoming damage, as well as limiting the negative effects of certain mechanics.

ChefZero · August 2018

Well, maybe we must not forget that healing in ESO is a different thing like other games cause of no CDs, CC break + immunity and damage and healing are increased by the same stats.

1st and 2nd are gameplay things and they shouldnt change it. But you cant compare fighting a healer in ESO like fighting a healer in WoW BGs/Arena for example.

3rd is the major issues IMO. If they seperate the scaling like crit, W/M dmg and penetration for dealing damage and max stam/mag for defense abilities then they would have more opportunities for balancing skills and sets.

ZOS_Ragnar · August 2018

We have edited the title of this thread and removed inappropriate comments. Please keep your discussion focused on the game and mechanics and avoid bashing the devs who make it.

VirtualElizabeth · August 2018

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

wanting mass amounts of damage and mass healing on a templar and / or on a warden is what is unbalanced.
healers should Heal, and the more damage they do the less they should be able to heal.

Spell Damage impacts healing is my understanding.

Aedaryl · August 2018

This is clearly a build and cps errors.
&
My PvP sorc get 12k heal on heavy armor argonian players easely. I don't have a single point into healing.

VirtualElizabeth · August 2018

Are you all using Combat Metrics to determine your crit heals?

SugaComa · August 2018

7k is low, I could crit 12 to 14k almost double , but I thought heals had been nerfed so they no longer crit

Ragnarock41 · August 2018

I know the frustration of beating up a magplar with 30k hp for hours, only for him to hit BoL two times and be max hp again, so I'm not buying any of your tales. Improve your build maybe? Do I really need to tell you for maybe 20th time that 7k is not a great bol heal, even with defile?

chesspilgrim · August 2018

@Grimick

thank you kindly. i appreciate your response.

Malamar1229 · August 2018

Thogard wrote: »

Oh hey look it’s Jeremy again .

I see you’re still up to the same old shenanigans

What a rascal.

I remember his pro auction house threads

Syiccal · August 2018

I play a dps templar in pvp and regularly get HTD heals of 12k+ ..no issues here, look at your build .(not just the sets you wear)

Waffennacht · August 2018

SugaComa wrote: »

7k is low, I could crit 12 to 14k almost double , but I thought heals had been nerfed so they no longer crit

Heals still crit

What changed is critical damage modifiers no longer also modify crit heals

Lexxypwns · August 2018

Odd, I got a 14k BoL crit earlier today...

SlowMetabolism · August 2018

Jeremy wrote: »

Keep in mind, I am talking None CP PvP here.

You probably should have led with that as CP stats and none CP stats are extremely different.

Alfie2072 · August 2018

all im hearing is how you are a healer who cant outheal 1 player, its l2p, healers are fine, healing is more than fine, change your build and get alittle better...
this guys sitting here thinking he should be able to hit a 20k BOL ahahahaahah

Alfie2072 · August 2018

"So no wonder people create "healing bots". Why would anyone want to actually play as one?"
this to me also sounds like you dont understand what "healing bot" means, they are not talking about actual bots, they are talking about builds that are literally only designed for healing, which is exactly what you are saying isnt possible

Jeremy · August 2018

This forum is like walking on eggshells. But I'll risk being disruptive again and attempt to carry on this discussion only because I actually do like this game and would like to see its pvp design improved.

First: I decided to take seriously the "get gud!", "L2P", "your build is traaaash!" criticisms that suggested it was my lack of "buffs" that were responsible for such weak heals (and not the game design itself). So I slapped on Jorvuld's Guidance/Vanus and proceeded to buff myself with minor healing and major healing with the ritual Mundus. To my shock - my breath of life still critted for... yep... you guessed it... 7kish.

So that was my mistake for taking your arguments seriously. I guess there is a reason your replies rely on such lame retorts as "l2P" as your counter argument. If I had no clue what I was talking about I would probably rely on such generic and negative platitudes for my arguments as well.

Jeremy · August 2018

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Heals should never out do damage in the long run

Then this is definitely the game for you - because it doesn't.

Now why you (and the developers) feel this way is a mystery to me. Because I'm not sure what the point of healing is if it can't "outheal' the damage being done to you as that is sorta the point of healing.

I guess so DPS classes have something to get their life back up with when they are aren't killing people....

Jeremy · August 2018

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Lol at one point I could get 23k breath of life crits, sadly I’m not even exaggerating. Anyways you definitely should get higher than 7k for a crit.

Yes, well I critical heal for 24k in PvE also with breath of life...

But that's not really the point now is it.

leepalmer95 · August 2018

Jeremy wrote: »

This forum is like walking on eggshells. But I'll risk being disruptive again and attempt to carry on this discussion only because I actually do like this game and would like to see its pvp design improved.

First: I decided to take seriously the "get gud!", "L2P", "your build is traaaash!" criticisms that suggested it was my lack of "buffs" that were responsible for such weak heals (and not the game design itself). So I slapped on Jorvuld's Guidance/Vanus and proceeded to buff myself with minor healing and major healing with the ritual Mundus. To my shock - my breath of life still critted for... yep... you guessed it... 7kish.

So that was my mistake for taking you seriously. I guess there is a reason you rely on such lame retorts as "l2P" as your counter arguments. If I had no clue what I was talking about I would probably rely on such lame and negative platitudesfor my arguments as well.

Tempars already get minor mending.

Again buff your stats, also sort of your cp. You have cp into crit heals, healing done and healing received right? because they all buff your heals.

Jeremy · August 2018

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

This forum is like walking on eggshells. But I'll risk being disruptive again and attempt to carry on this discussion only because I actually do like this game and would like to see its pvp design improved.

First: I decided to take seriously the "get gud!", "L2P", "your build is traaaash!" criticisms that suggested it was my lack of "buffs" that were responsible for such weak heals (and not the game design itself). So I slapped on Jorvuld's Guidance/Vanus and proceeded to buff myself with minor healing and major healing with the ritual Mundus. To my shock - my breath of life still critted for... yep... you guessed it... 7kish.

So that was my mistake for taking you seriously. I guess there is a reason you rely on such lame retorts as "l2P" as your counter arguments. If I had no clue what I was talking about I would probably rely on such lame and negative platitudesfor my arguments as well.

Tempars already get minor mending.

Again buff your stats, also sort of your cp. You have cp into crit heals, healing done and healing received right? because they all buff your heals.

Yes I know, that's how I was able to apply minor healing to myself.

And please take more time to read the full context of my thread, because I am talking about non-CP here.

leepalmer95 · August 2018

Jeremy wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

This forum is like walking on eggshells. But I'll risk being disruptive again and attempt to carry on this discussion only because I actually do like this game and would like to see its pvp design improved.

First: I decided to take seriously the "get gud!", "L2P", "your build is traaaash!" criticisms that suggested it was my lack of "buffs" that were responsible for such weak heals (and not the game design itself). So I slapped on Jorvuld's Guidance/Vanus and proceeded to buff myself with minor healing and major healing with the ritual Mundus. To my shock - my breath of life still critted for... yep... you guessed it... 7kish.

So that was my mistake for taking you seriously. I guess there is a reason you rely on such lame retorts as "l2P" as your counter arguments. If I had no clue what I was talking about I would probably rely on such lame and negative platitudesfor my arguments as well.

Tempars already get minor mending.

Again buff your stats, also sort of your cp. You have cp into crit heals, healing done and healing received right? because they all buff your heals.

Yes I know, that's how I was able to apply minor healing to myself.

And please take more time to read the full context of my thread, because I am talking about non-CP here.

So your complaint is you can only heal 35% of your max hp and heal someone else as well in 1 cast?

But again stack dmg.

Jeremy · August 2018

f

mursie wrote: »

People are fixated on the 7k - so be it. but the real point was that healing in this game is sub par to the damage in this game.

From the perspective of other mmo's - i agree with that statement. a healer in this game that truly goes full heals can not win a 1v1 against a DD and further - will likely eventually succomb to resource fatigue and die to DD because - pursuant to original point, healing is subpar to damage in this game.

Now - that said, I can't necessarily say that I am opposed to this setup. I have played mmo's where a competent group with a good healer make it virtually impossible for any pug group to score even one kill against the opposing team. This is because healing is so incredibly strong that pugs would never create the coordination necessary to burst a player down.

In this game - pugs can beat premades... and that is because healers are not that dominant. sure - more times than not the competent group with a healer will out kill and win. but - a pug can score a kill with well timed burst because healing simply can't match it.

anyways - good luck in your pursuit Jeremy. I would only heal in this game for the following:
1. you like a change of pace - alt a holic - and want to play some heals in bg's every now and then.
2. you have an organized group to run with and they want you to heal
3. you enjoy pugging - watching everyone around you die - and revel in the fact that if you los and scramble successfully - while you will achieve nothing towards the end goal - you may survive, to heal another day.

Excellent post.

Because that is pretty much spot on with what I am attempting to say here. This game's PvP favors DD classes and healing is subpar when compared to damage on this game. Even when I use a PVE build designed for nothing but healing and neglect my defense still my heals fail to put out the kind of numbers damage does on this game.

We disagree that this is a good set up. I feel it's a terrible one. But that's ok, we can agree to disagree about that. I'm just happy to read someone who actually understands the argument I am making instead of ranting about how awful a player I am and blah blah blah

Jeremy · August 2018

Thunderknuckles wrote: »

I've been PvP'ing for ten years in MMO's. Balance is always an issue in these types games. It's just incredibly difficult to do. If you want truly balanced PvP then you need a game that does only PvP. The only way I can think of where ESO devs could really make PvP balanced would be to have PvP only classes and gear. When you mix PvE and PvP balance is just a constant juggling act.

I've played a lot of MMORPGs and I've never seen healing that is so weak on a game's PvP before.

So they could do a better job of balancing it. This is going to be the first MMO I have ever played where I won't be playing as a healer in PvP. They're just horrible in my opinion (no offense to those who enjoy it).

Jeremy · August 2018

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

This forum is like walking on eggshells. But I'll risk being disruptive again and attempt to carry on this discussion only because I actually do like this game and would like to see its pvp design improved.

First: I decided to take seriously the "get gud!", "L2P", "your build is traaaash!" criticisms that suggested it was my lack of "buffs" that were responsible for such weak heals (and not the game design itself). So I slapped on Jorvuld's Guidance/Vanus and proceeded to buff myself with minor healing and major healing with the ritual Mundus. To my shock - my breath of life still critted for... yep... you guessed it... 7kish.

So that was my mistake for taking you seriously. I guess there is a reason you rely on such lame retorts as "l2P" as your counter arguments. If I had no clue what I was talking about I would probably rely on such lame and negative platitudesfor my arguments as well.

Tempars already get minor mending.

Again buff your stats, also sort of your cp. You have cp into crit heals, healing done and healing received right? because they all buff your heals.

Yes I know, that's how I was able to apply minor healing to myself.

And please take more time to read the full context of my thread, because I am talking about non-CP here.

So your complaint is you can only heal 35% of your max hp and heal someone else as well in 1 cast?

But again stack dmg.

I explain my criticisms as it relates to healing on this game's PvP about as well as I can in my opening post. But basically: my criticism/complaint is that damage > healing on this game.

Jeremy · August 2018

SlowMetabolism wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Keep in mind, I am talking None CP PvP here.

You probably should have led with that as CP stats and none CP stats are extremely different.

That's a fair point. I guess I wrongly assumed people would know I was talking about none CP PvP because of battlegrounds and the numbers I was using in my argument. There was one poster who was even comparing his PvE healing numbers to mine in an effort to illustrate just how badly I sucked when compared to him...

So it certainly seems I should have been more clear about that. So point well taken. But in my defense, I did point it out in my 6th post.

leepalmer95 · August 2018

Jeremy wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

This forum is like walking on eggshells. But I'll risk being disruptive again and attempt to carry on this discussion only because I actually do like this game and would like to see its pvp design improved.

First: I decided to take seriously the "get gud!", "L2P", "your build is traaaash!" criticisms that suggested it was my lack of "buffs" that were responsible for such weak heals (and not the game design itself). So I slapped on Jorvuld's Guidance/Vanus and proceeded to buff myself with minor healing and major healing with the ritual Mundus. To my shock - my breath of life still critted for... yep... you guessed it... 7kish.

So that was my mistake for taking you seriously. I guess there is a reason you rely on such lame retorts as "l2P" as your counter arguments. If I had no clue what I was talking about I would probably rely on such lame and negative platitudesfor my arguments as well.

Tempars already get minor mending.

Again buff your stats, also sort of your cp. You have cp into crit heals, healing done and healing received right? because they all buff your heals.

Yes I know, that's how I was able to apply minor healing to myself.

And please take more time to read the full context of my thread, because I am talking about non-CP here.

So your complaint is you can only heal 35% of your max hp and heal someone else as well in 1 cast?

But again stack dmg.

I explain my criticisms as it relates to healing on this game PvP about as well as I can in my opening post. But basically: my criticism/complaint is that damage > healing on this game.

Dmg should always be > healing.

When dmg is < healing then you have the mess that is cp pvp. Where a healer can tank 5 people while healing a zerg,

Try making yourself more tanky, even in non cp i've seen magplars tank 4 people and heal easy enough.

Jeremy · August 2018

Mr_Nobody wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

That's what a critical Breath of Life does in Mother of Sorrow/Twice Born Star with ritual and apprentice Mundus.

If that set up can't give you heals powerful enough to simply break even against one player's damage, then there is a serious problem.

Keep in mind, I am talking None CP PvP here.

idk my breath of life crits me for 15k or so. sometimes even more depending on my health.

Listen to what other nice people here have told you -

look for a new and better healing build, you are clearly doing something VERY wrong. I am sure i can get a 7k BoL crit heal while playing a stamina templar.

good luck, young templar

Like I said - until you and those like you who keep making these obscure arguments that the sets I am using are responsible actually share with me which sets I could put on that are supposedly going to double my heals I'm not going to take it serious.

So by all means - tell this "young templar" what sets he could be using that would turn his 7k heals into 15k heals. But I won't be holding my breath - because it's B.S.

OrphanHelgen · August 2018

healing rotation is same as dps rotation. Put healing over time before spam breath of life. And yes, you need major sorcery and mending.