Shields Do Not Make Healers Useless and Why They Should Not Be Nerfed

WuffyCerulei · August 2018

One thing from the newest Class Rep notes that has been really bothering me. The fact that some people think that shields make healers seem useless. That is FAR from the truth.

I assume this is based on pve, where magicka dps are required to use shields to negate damage. Just because magicka dps can survive various mechanics doesn't make the shields too strong. They still heavily rely healers to keep them up in many situations. All trials have mechanics where everyone, not just the magicka dps, have to stay by the healers to stay alive. On another note, I have been told by healers that they appreciate magicka dps being proactive about their shields, as it eases the workload on them. There are too many points where they have to focus their heals in certain parts of the trial or on certain people. Shields help keep the magicka dps from dying all the time. Not to mention the many one-shot mechanics soft light armor dps cannot survive without shields. Take vAS for example. A lot of mechanics there hit hard. They can't be all avoided. Lothis's poison conal, Lightning, Gust of Steam, you name it. Magicka dps there need their shields to stay alive. Healers can't be up in their case when they have to kite Felms or heal the main tank constantly getting [removed profanity] slapped by Olms.

Also progression groups and people learning trials and how to survive the mechanics better. A lot of them use shields to keep them up while learning to get better at the mechanics. Only top-tier, experienced dps can survive the mechanics without glancing at their shield. If they even have one slotted.

Shields are also a major part in pvp and solo play. Many magicka players in pvp use shields to keep them from dying all the time. It offers damage mitigation without having to rely on heavy armor or impen. For solo play, overland stuff and especially veteran Maelstrom Arena, shields are extremely important. Someone on a magicka builds and is running vMA needs shields to avoid getting dunked by mechanics that would nuke them in seconds.

Healers are still needed in trials and stuff. There is no getting around that healers are important. But nerfing shields won't make their jobs any easier or more rewarding. DPS would be dying more to mechanics they could survive, progression groups would have hell getting past mechanics. and pvp and solo players would suffer.

DO NOT TOUCH SHIELDS.

erlewine · August 2018

WuffyCerulei wrote: »

Someone on a magicka builds and is running vMA needs shields to avoid getting dunked by mechanics that would nuke them in seconds.

The top leaderboard scores for Magicka builds in vMA don't use shields. Really, the problem with healers isn't rooted in shields, it's rooted in DPS. With high DPS and smart play, a healer isn't needed because no damage is taken. It's not really because of shields.

WuffyCerulei · August 2018

erlewine wrote: »

WuffyCerulei wrote: »

Someone on a magicka builds and is running vMA needs shields to avoid getting dunked by mechanics that would nuke them in seconds.

The top leaderboard scores for Magicka builds in vMA don't use shields. Really, the problem with healers isn't rooted in shields, it's rooted in DPS. With high DPS and smart play, a healer isn't needed because no damage is taken. It's not really because of shields.

Most magicka people in there still use shields. Of course the people who practically live in there don't use them.

XxCaLxX · August 2018

I’m sure many magicka builds can go without shield in vMA or other solo content but for the majority of the game vet dlc dungeons and trials a mag dps couldn’t make it without shield. Maybe a magblade and a high crit sorc but would have to have op tank and healer at all times.

Tasear · August 2018

As your class representative, I am listening to the concerns that present themselves in this thread.

Inarre · August 2018

So uh, are shieldd being nerfed? Or is this just an opinion piece?

Either way I don't really agree with the statement that shields render heals useless. In really any facet of the game. Shields currently are totally useless in pvp. In pve all shields have such a short cooldown that you need to basically spam them or REALLY know the content to get the best use out of them. I dont think nerfing them would change any of that except to make shields useless in pve too.

As a healer who is progressing vet trials there is no point where I have been able to say "welp, my magic dps are spamming shields instead of damaging things, guess they have it covered" *drops healing staff*

DarcyMardin · August 2018

Tasear wrote: »

As your class representative, I am listening to the concerns that present themselves in this thread.

I hope this is not another one of those situations where something is nerfed that hurts us PvErs because folks in PvP are still complaining about shields.

In difficult PvE content, I need my shield on my magicka characters. In certain situations, I even use harness magicka on my healers. And my husband, who mains a magsorc with pets, always has his sorc shield equipped, in part to protect his pets.

WuffyCerulei · August 2018

Tasear wrote: »

As your class representative, I am listening to the concerns that present themselves in this thread.

Thank you,. It's good to know yall are listening!

Varana · August 2018

Heals react to damage, shields prevent damage. That's two very different things.

The best healer doesn't help if you're dead. MagDPS are typically somewhat squishy, meaning the range when healing is actually is required is rather small. Either they take a bit of damage which no one takes seriously and they heal through them themselves, or they get blasted. In between is very little room, but only that small in-between is where heals apply.

Nerfing shields doesn't lead to a greater need for healers. It leads to more people being one-shot.

SickleCider · August 2018

Varana wrote: »

[. . .]
Nerfing shields doesn't lead to a greater need for healers. It leads to more people being one-shot.

Strongly agree with this. I'm a mag sorc, and I can add my voice to the others that say that shields mitigate only enough damage so that the healer has time to get to me. Nerfing shields wouldn't just negatively affect me, but it'd destroy the entire group dynamic.

zaria · August 2018

Varana wrote: »

Heals react to damage, shields prevent damage. That's two very different things.

The best healer doesn't help if you're dead. MagDPS are typically somewhat squishy, meaning the range when healing is actually is required is rather small. Either they take a bit of damage which no one takes seriously and they heal through them themselves, or they get blasted. In between is very little room, but only that small in-between is where heals apply.

Nerfing shields doesn't lead to a greater need for healers. It leads to more people being one-shot.

This, especially in high damage fights or mechanics, vBC1 final boss is probably the best example.
As DD I only use them in specific fights even if I tend to slot it for harder stuff.
As healer I have it outside of normals, very nice then resurrecting for one

Cronopoly · August 2018

zaria wrote: »

Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.

Sig is awesome

I'm hoping this is not some new precurser to a Class killer. Templars still have not bounced back in PVP to the levels they were before.

after some of their defining skills were gutted (In PVP)

I'll just stop here.

ak_pvp · August 2018

DarcyMardin wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

As your class representative, I am listening to the concerns that present themselves in this thread.

I hope this is not another one of those situations where something is nerfed that hurts us PvErs because folks in PvP are still complaining about shields.

In difficult PvE content, I need my shield on my magicka characters. In certain situations, I even use harness magicka on my healers. And my husband, who mains a magsorc with pets, always has his sorc shield equipped, in part to protect his pets.

Actually, its the opposite. Healers in PvE feel useless in some content because a DPS can just shield through it and passively heal, whilst adding more DPS, and more DPS means less engagement needed and thus less healing need. This is marginally true in the way that harness is basically free to use when hit with magic abilities. (a lot)

As for my thoughts, they don't need nerfing. They do however need some form of soft counter and then buffing, so you can counter it but then they become stronger for OW, where they melt.
I won't be sad to see them go though, then people would know what block/roll feels like being nerfed every patch.

Valrien · August 2018

ak_pvp wrote: »

DarcyMardin wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

As your class representative, I am listening to the concerns that present themselves in this thread.

I hope this is not another one of those situations where something is nerfed that hurts us PvErs because folks in PvP are still complaining about shields.

In difficult PvE content, I need my shield on my magicka characters. In certain situations, I even use harness magicka on my healers. And my husband, who mains a magsorc with pets, always has his sorc shield equipped, in part to protect his pets.

Actually, its the opposite. Healers in PvE feel useless in some content because a DPS can just shield through it and passively heal, whilst adding more DPS, and more DPS means less engagement needed and thus less healing need,

As for my thoughts, they don't need nerfing. They do however need some form of soft counter and then buffing, so you can counter it but then they become stronger for OW, where they melt.
I won't be sad to see them go though, then people would know what block/roll feels like being nerfed every patch.

Those healers need to get over themselves and realize it's not just their job to keep the group alive. DPS needs to keep themselves alive too, healers mainly exist to keep people topped off so they don't die when the shields come off and support the group by keeping their magicka and stamina topped off.

RedRook · August 2018

100% agree. Do not want.

If we're worried healers don't feel needed, make some healer-specific mechanics and stop making the best tactic in every fight in every dungeon to nuke everything as quickly as possible, so people want more DD rather than heals and support. Don't for the love of Mara gimp ANYbody else so I can feel like my contribution is more important. Gross.

Aliyavana · August 2018

Zos just needs more incentive to bring stam dps into raids over magblades

Ragged_Claw · August 2018

Please don't nerf shields, I'm so close to finishing VMA and it's not like I can take a healer.. *sobs*

Universe · August 2018

Sadly, given the past nerfs to sorcerer and damage shields we can expect a nerf to shields, like 1 or more of the following(examples):
1. Reduce damage shields effectiveness by 30%-50%.
2. Damage shields will be critable.
3. Damage shields can't stack.
4. Damage shields reduce the damage of the player by 10%-20%.
5. Damage shields will reduce self healing by 30%-50% - that way zos may make the healers more viable.

There is no need to nerf damage shields.
The current damage output of different abilities/sets far outweigh the strength of the damage shields and they offer much less protection than they used to.

DarcyMardin · August 2018

ak_pvp wrote: »

DarcyMardin wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

As your class representative, I am listening to the concerns that present themselves in this thread.

I hope this is not another one of those situations where something is nerfed that hurts us PvErs because folks in PvP are still complaining about shields.

In difficult PvE content, I need my shield on my magicka characters. In certain situations, I even use harness magicka on my healers. And my husband, who mains a magsorc with pets, always has his sorc shield equipped, in part to protect his pets.

Actually, its the opposite. Healers in PvE feel useless in some content because a DPS can just shield through it and passively heal, whilst adding more DPS, and more DPS means less engagement needed and thus less healing need. This is marginally true in the way that harness is basically free to use when hit with magic abilities. (a lot)

Sorry, but I disagree. I main a healer (both a templar and a warden) and I never feel useless. Not only am I healing and contributing important buffs, but at times I'm using that shield myself. Nerfing shields, as has been already said, will result in more people being one-shotted. I don't want to have to stop healing and buffing to rez dead people any more than I already have to, thank you very much!

ak_pvp · August 2018

DarcyMardin wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

DarcyMardin wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

As your class representative, I am listening to the concerns that present themselves in this thread.

I hope this is not another one of those situations where something is nerfed that hurts us PvErs because folks in PvP are still complaining about shields.

In difficult PvE content, I need my shield on my magicka characters. In certain situations, I even use harness magicka on my healers. And my husband, who mains a magsorc with pets, always has his sorc shield equipped, in part to protect his pets.

Actually, its the opposite. Healers in PvE feel useless in some content because a DPS can just shield through it and passively heal, whilst adding more DPS, and more DPS means less engagement needed and thus less healing need. This is marginally true in the way that harness is basically free to use when hit with magic abilities. (a lot)

Sorry, but I disagree. I main as healer (both a templar and a warden) and I never feel useless. Not only am I healing and contributing important buffs, but at times I'm using that shield myself. Nerfing shields, as has been already said, will result in more people being one-shotted. I don't want to have to stop healing and buffing to rez dead people any more than I already have to, thank you very much!

Valrien wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

DarcyMardin wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

As your class representative, I am listening to the concerns that present themselves in this thread.

I hope this is not another one of those situations where something is nerfed that hurts us PvErs because folks in PvP are still complaining about shields.

In difficult PvE content, I need my shield on my magicka characters. In certain situations, I even use harness magicka on my healers. And my husband, who mains a magsorc with pets, always has his sorc shield equipped, in part to protect his pets.

Actually, its the opposite. Healers in PvE feel useless in some content because a DPS can just shield through it and passively heal, whilst adding more DPS, and more DPS means less engagement needed and thus less healing need,

As for my thoughts, they don't need nerfing. They do however need some form of soft counter and then buffing, so you can counter it but then they become stronger for OW, where they melt.
I won't be sad to see them go though, then people would know what block/roll feels like being nerfed every patch.

Those healers need to get over themselves and realize it's not just their job to keep the group alive. DPS needs to keep themselves alive too, healers mainly exist to keep people topped off so they don't die when the shields come off and support the group by keeping their magicka and stamina topped off.

Its not specifically what I think, just a concern pressed by some healers for PvE. You do see non endgame healers say they feel left out since most content is completable with 3dds who are just better especially for speed/no death. Can't outheal a 1 shot as it were.

Instead of ZOS updating design philosophy however, they go for nerfs which'd be a bad change overall for both PvE/PvP.

Tasear · August 2018

As your class representative, I am listening to the concerns that present themselves in this thread.

DarcyMardin wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

As your class representative, I am listening to the concerns that present themselves in this thread.

I hope this is not another one of those situations where something is nerfed that hurts us PvErs because folks in PvP are still complaining about shields.

In difficult PvE content, I need my shield on my magicka characters. In certain situations, I even use harness magicka on my healers. And my husband, who mains a magsorc with pets, always has his sorc shield equipped, in part to protect his pets.

So the issue is actually pve. For various reasons a strong subset of healers have felt they aren't needed in content. Then even then players themselves don't find themselves needing healers. Sure the status quo still has healers participating in content, but number expressed concern in game , in discord and in forums and they aren't feeling needed for content.

Such statements are

"best score runs are without a healer in vDSA"
" I have to ask people to take as a healer for pledges"
" I feel my healers are secondary not primary"
" What do I need combat prayer with all nightblades"

Is changing shields the right call? That is for combat team to decide. My personal thoughts is issue will take time to resolve and there are many active healing play styles to account for in such changes. I think it's best to discuss why healers aren't needed so different changes might come about that is more satisfactory for solution for everyone. But my apologizes for the worries the players feel about "potential changes". We will do our best to convey such concerns as your class representatives.

Universe · August 2018

Tasear wrote: »

As your class representative, I am listening to the concerns that present themselves in this thread.

DarcyMardin wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

As your class representative, I am listening to the concerns that present themselves in this thread.

I hope this is not another one of those situations where something is nerfed that hurts us PvErs because folks in PvP are still complaining about shields.

In difficult PvE content, I need my shield on my magicka characters. In certain situations, I even use harness magicka on my healers. And my husband, who mains a magsorc with pets, always has his sorc shield equipped, in part to protect his pets.

So the issue is actually pve. For various reasons a strong subset of healers have felt they aren't needed in content. Then even then players themselves don't find themselves needing healers. Sure the status quo still has healers participating in content, but number expressed concern in game , in discord and in forums and they aren't feeling needed for content.

Such statements are

"best score runs are without a healer in vDSA"
" I have to ask people to take as a healer for pledges"
" I feel my healers are secondary not primary"
" What do I need combat prayer with all nightblades"

Is changing shields the right call? That is for combat team to decide. My personal thoughts is issue will take time to resolve and there are many active healing play styles to account for in such changes. I think it's best to discuss why healers aren't needed so different changes might come about that is more satisfactory for solution for everyone. But my apologizes for the worries the players feel about "potential changes". We will do our best to convey such concerns as your class representatives.

Until the combat team will not separate the combat balancing of PVP from the combat balancing of PVE there will never be true combat balance.
The faster they will realize it the better.
There is a need for 2 separate combat systems and each ability will work differently in either scenario, PVP or PVE.

Also, constantly balancing around cp enabled makes no cp far less balanced(poisons are OP, different sets/abilities are OP or less efficient), this is why the no cp battlegrounds and no cp alliance war campaigns are not as popular as they can be.
I strongly suggest to bring back the cp enabled battlegrounds and perhaps let go of no cp(remove it from the game entirely) since you clearly can't balance the no cp and cp enabled together and you're not going to balance both of them apart.

MLGProPlayer · August 2018

Magicka DPS would not be able to complete most dungeons/trials without shields since they don't have any other ways to mitigate/avoid incoming damage (they don't have enough stamina to block/dodge and they don't have evasion).

Armatesz · August 2018

Something I have found about damage shields is that they are a very essential thing to this game. They allow opportunities to more focus on actually doing the damage or even to brace for an attack that so many people call a "one shot" mechanic... most of what people call a one shot mechanic is based solely on either resistances and amount of health they have. If they don't have enough health and resistances for it then they could use a damage shield to cushion some of the damage or all of it if the damage shield exceeds the actual damage being done to it. Where as you pop a shield when you are low and then heal it gives you a bit of a break.
One example of a shield that is extremely powerful is the restoration staff's ward... I choose ward ally as the healing one can be bugged out, that way I will always get a shield no matter what. The lower my hp the stronger the shield, and I can get a damage shield that fills my entire health bar... that is really saying something. Shields are extremely essential and especially so if your group is not used to doing something like maw of lorkhaj on vet hard mode so many times you can't count the times you have done it. A damage shield can make a glass cannon build (which I see a lot of people use) last much longer than they should. Just remember that when you make your build all light, you have your perfect damage build without any sort of damage mitigation that you leave yourself vulnerable to even some of the most basic veteran dungeon/trial enemies.

Kadoin · August 2018

Who would say shields make healers useless? The game is a DPS race with little to no punishment for DPS, that's the problem and will keep being the problem. Adding 1-shot mechanics that happen in predictable ways is NOT the solution and not punishment for the DPS either; DPS checks only exist to confound the problem.

A real question would be this: does anyone doing DPS actually ever feel unsafe in the game? I would bet among anyone that is "top tier" or whatever you want to call it, the answer would be a resounding no. When you can solo a dungeon as a DPS without a healer, that is a problem, but it has little to nothing to do with shields. It's more of a problem that fights are too predictable and not punishing enough. Adding HP and more damage is a LAZY way to increase difficulty and doesn't accomplish anything.

PvP actually shows exactly where PvE fails. In PvP you have enemies with multiple skillsets, different abilities, etc. that actually make you have to pay attention and worry about where you are, what you are doing, what might happen next whereas in PvE you don't! Every enemy in PvE is eventually predictable, has a limited skill set, and can't really cause trouble for you once you've done it enough times.

If they want to make healers more useful, they are going to need a combat overhaul for PvE. Not "class balancing." Not a stupid nerf across the board to a few skills, then leave sets that also have shields that are problematic, then leave sets that can heal amounts that are problematic, then leave skills that are problematic, etc. and then the nerfing would have accomplished nothing besides making combat slower and boring AGAIN.

I know this might sound crazy, but ZOS needs to revisit their old content. As CP continues to rise and new sets are introduced, what else would happen besides a lesser need for healers and tanks when damage is the only thing that ultimately matters in the game (at least in PvE)? It's literally "do damage, avoid it, drop hp until you win." How does anyone not expect this to eventually make healers and tanks irrelevant in the long run? I know I've seen it long coming since CP was introduced and every cap increase.

Micah_Bayer · August 2018

DarcyMardin wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

DarcyMardin wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

As your class representative, I am listening to the concerns that present themselves in this thread.

I hope this is not another one of those situations where something is nerfed that hurts us PvErs because folks in PvP are still complaining about shields.

In difficult PvE content, I need my shield on my magicka characters. In certain situations, I even use harness magicka on my healers. And my husband, who mains a magsorc with pets, always has his sorc shield equipped, in part to protect his pets.

Actually, its the opposite. Healers in PvE feel useless in some content because a DPS can just shield through it and passively heal, whilst adding more DPS, and more DPS means less engagement needed and thus less healing need. This is marginally true in the way that harness is basically free to use when hit with magic abilities. (a lot)

Sorry, but I disagree. I main as healer (both a templar and a warden) and I never feel useless. Not only am I healing and contributing important buffs, but at times I'm using that shield myself. Nerfing shields, as has been already said, will result in more people being one-shotted. I don't want to have to stop healing and buffing to rez dead people any more than I already have to, thank you very much!

That's not the point. The point is this is a pure pve change warranted by pvers

Haashhtaag · August 2018

Tasear wrote: »

As your class representative, I am listening to the concerns that present themselves in this thread.

DarcyMardin wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

As your class representative, I am listening to the concerns that present themselves in this thread.

I hope this is not another one of those situations where something is nerfed that hurts us PvErs because folks in PvP are still complaining about shields.

In difficult PvE content, I need my shield on my magicka characters. In certain situations, I even use harness magicka on my healers. And my husband, who mains a magsorc with pets, always has his sorc shield equipped, in part to protect his pets.

So the issue is actually pve. For various reasons a strong subset of healers have felt they aren't needed in content. Then even then players themselves don't find themselves needing healers. Sure the status quo still has healers participating in content, but number expressed concern in game , in discord and in forums and they aren't feeling needed for content.

Such statements are

"best score runs are without a healer in vDSA"
" I have to ask people to take as a healer for pledges"
" I feel my healers are secondary not primary"
" What do I need combat prayer with all nightblades"

Is changing shields the right call? That is for combat team to decide. My personal thoughts is issue will take time to resolve and there are many active healing play styles to account for in such changes. I think it's best to discuss why healers aren't needed so different changes might come about that is more satisfactory for solution for everyone. But my apologizes for the worries the players feel about "potential changes". We will do our best to convey such concerns as your class representatives.

It’s having 3 magblades running funnel health and a tank that is causing the issue. You’re looking st this through the scope of probably high end rng game healers most of which aren’t 200-600 cp. Healing CP is the issue if they feel useless then reduce healing cp and make them work their asses off to heal and it would also prevent DPS classes from out healing damage.

Fiktius · August 2018

Please, pretty please, do not give a death sentence to PvP healers because PvE healers feels themselves useless...

Konstant_Tel_Necris · August 2018

I use rare mDK healer and I agree with OP shield is usefull for healer, I'd like how Bone Surge was changed as it open new ways for healers and tanks.
I also have sorc healer and protecting my winged nurse assistant with Empowered Ward and give my group Minor Intellect buff.

Hotdog_23 · August 2018

To me the difference being magic character and stamina characters are the shields. Magic gets shields that can stop the damage thus less heals and stamina eats the damage and has to use vigor to stay alive. To me shields are too much compared to stamina players who have no shield.

Generally when I play a magic character in groups content (outside of HM and trials) I don't need heals because of the shield and when I play stamina I need some heals form the healer because vigor is like 10k over 5 seconds and shields are harness and ward are 10k with the press of a button.

AlienatedGoat · August 2018

Everyone who says shields make healers obsolete should try running vet DLC trials with no healers.

I guarantee that they'll eat their words.