Enchantment "stays with the DoT" but what about the trait?

Samsgaard · August 2018

I understand that the enchantment on the weapon used to cast a DoT (e.g., Elemental Blockade) now stays with the DoT if you switch bars to a weapon with a different enchantment. But what about the trait on the weapon used to cast the DoT? I don't think that carries over as well, but the explanations I've seen are not unanimous. If the staff's trait is Charged but the front bar weapon is Infused, will ticks of the DoT after swapping to the front bar proc Infused versions of the Shock enchant?

Septimus_Magna · August 2018

The trait stays with the DOT, so if you cast Blockade from a Nirnhoned staff and switch to an infused staff it will retain the extra dmg from nirn trait.

John_Falstaff · August 2018

@Septimus_Magna , I'm frankly not sure about that. It may not be the case; I think ZOS explicitly stated that damage ticks will be recalculated using current stats, so it may depend on the trait. The way I thought it happens is, Nirnhoned will not be carried over with the DoT (after bar-swap, next damage tick will have damage corresponding to newly calculated weapon/spell damage), but infused trait is definitely remembered because it affects enchantment and not character stats. But we definitely could use either official comment, or a mention of someone having done the test. (I gave test to infused, but not to nirnhoned after the patch.)

jypcy · August 2018

I just did a very quick test of infused on Monday, but it seems that infused only affects the enchantment that is on that weapon, as in:
Regular cooldown on damage enchantment (no infused): 4 seconds
Cooldown on damage enchantment with infused: 2 seconds
Cooldown for enchantment when cast from an infused weapon while on a bar with an infused weapon: 2 seconds
Cooldown for enchantment when cast from an infused weapon while on a bar with a non-infused weapon: 2 seconds
Cooldown for enchantment when cast from a non-infused weapon while on a bar with an infused weapon: 4 seconds
Cooldown for enchantment when cast from a non-infused weapon while on a bar with a non-infused weapon: 4 seconds

I’m not sure how other offbar traits affect the enchantment, but my guess is that they don’t; infused only takes effect because it specifically affects that weapon’s enchantment. A precise backbar wouldn’t give that enchantment a higher crit chance while offbarred, nor would a sharpened backbar give that enchantment more penetration while offbarred, etc. But I haven’t tested these other traits, so can’t be sure.

Samsgaard · August 2018

jypcy wrote: »

Cooldown for enchantment when cast from an infused weapon while on a bar with a non-infused weapon: 2 seconds
Cooldown for enchantment when cast from a non-infused weapon while on a bar with an infused weapon: 4 seconds

This seems to confirm that the Infused trait, at least, "fuses" with enchantment, which it turn fuses with the DoT.

Would the Charged trait do the same? I'd think not, because as I understand it, Charged affects everything you do that has a chance to proc a status effect. Unlike Infused, it's not a direct buff to the enchantment and only the enchantment.

jypcy · August 2018

Samsgaard wrote: »

jypcy wrote: »

Cooldown for enchantment when cast from an infused weapon while on a bar with a non-infused weapon: 2 seconds
Cooldown for enchantment when cast from a non-infused weapon while on a bar with an infused weapon: 4 seconds

This seems to confirm that the Infused trait, at least, "fuses" with enchantment, which it turn fuses with the DoT.

Would the Charged trait do the same? I'd think not, because as I understand it, Charged affects everything you do that has a chance to proc a status effect. Unlike Infused, it's not a direct buff to the enchantment and only the enchantment.

Like said, I haven’t tested so don’t want to say for certain, but that’s my understanding of it. Most traits buff you: you have higher penetration, you have stronger healing, you have a higher chance to proc status effects. Infused uniquely affects the enchantment: the enchantment has a lower cooldown and is more potent.

Samsgaard · August 2018

Assuming Charged doesn't work like Infused when you swap bars, is Charged pretty useless as the back bar weapon trait, at least when Blockade is the only attack regularly launched from the back bar? Seems only the first tick of Blockade would have the increased chance to proc a status effect. Whereas with Infused on the back bar weapon, the benefits of the trait would last throughout the duration of the DoT, even after bar swapping.

John_Falstaff · August 2018

Basically yes. I see meta shifting from nirnhoned back (the shift began in Summerset because DoTs began recalculating each new damage tick from current, actual stat values derived from current bar) to infused in Wolfhunter (now that DoTs remember enchantment and the fact that the weapon was infused).

jypcy · August 2018

I’d say it depends on what you’re using charged for. If we’re talking as a dps character, I would guess that for your single target damage, no combo would beat out two infused weapons with damage enchants. But if you’re running a lot of lightning, charged allowing you to concuss enemies more reliably should boost aoe damage and buff your group’s damage as well (assuming healer or tank isn’t covering this already). I don’t think it’s inherently useless, but if you let me know what you’re aiming for I could probably give you a better answer (since any role is liable to run blockade these days lol).

Septimus_Magna · August 2018

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@Septimus_Magna , I'm frankly not sure about that. It may not be the case; I think ZOS explicitly stated that damage ticks will be recalculated using current stats, so it may depend on the trait. The way I thought it happens is, Nirnhoned will not be carried over with the DoT (after bar-swap, next damage tick will have damage corresponding to newly calculated weapon/spell damage), but infused trait is definitely remembered because it affects enchantment and not character stats. But we definitely could use either official comment, or a mention of someone having done the test. (I gave test to infused, but not to nirnhoned after the patch.)

Its easy to check in-game if you dont believe me. Get two similar staves, one infused and one nirn, cast blockade of the nirn staff, check non-crit dmg. Switch to the infused staff and see what the difference is.

John_Falstaff · August 2018

@Septimus_Magna , I believe, just in the habit of double-checking everything. ^^ At the time of writing, I wasn't at home to check, but I just did - I had a couple of identical bows handy, one infused, one nirnhoned. While on bow bar, Endless Hail ticks differ in value for different bows. But after equipping each bow, firing Endless Hail and bar-swapping, the non-crit damage ticks are identical: 1099. So, no, nirnhoned trait isn't carried over with the DoT after bar-swap.

Samsgaard · August 2018

For example, say I'm tanking on my Shock Tank (sorc) and due to group makeup/gear/laziness, concussion ain't happening unless I proc it.

It seems that for the trait on the staff, Charged would make little difference because it's only going to work while I'm on the back bar, which means it's only going to help if the shock enchant fires on the first tick of blockade (before I swap bars), or if I'm on the back long enough to do shock damage with a heavy attack (I understand the splash damage can proc concussion) or with ticks of lightning storm or lightning flood. But apparently AOE's have the lowest base chance to proc concussion, so having Charged for just a few ticks of one or more AOE's wouldn't be great.

Same considerations if I'm on my Ice Tank (warden), with a frost-enchanted ice staff on the back bar, aiming to Chill stuff out.

jypcy · August 2018

Sure, so in that situation, I would think that an infused backbar with crusher enchant and a charged front bar with your element of choice (shock/frost) enchant would be best. If you’re doing any vet content, crusher is an important debuff to apply and you want to maximize uptime on it. As a buff/debuff enchant, it has a cooldown of 10 seconds, so needs to be used on an infused weapon for 100% uptime. Making your staff the infused crusher weapon means simply maintaining blockade of elements can get you that 100% uptime, all while spending most of your time on your charged weapon for more time spent with an increased status proc chance.

Doing the reverse (charged element staff and crusher 1h) would mean manually reapplying crusher every 5 seconds and having a “burst” of increased status proc chance only when you swap to your backbar. Status durations last 4 seconds and the cooldown for the element enchant is 4 seconds so you could probably pretty reliably apply the status effect on cooldown with this setup, but that’d be a LOT of barswapping and manual maintenance. I’m guessing the setup above would get you similar results with a much easier rotation.

John_Falstaff · August 2018

Edit: okay, I have misread OP's earlier comment, got in there after I've updated the page; sorry. Ignore. ^^

Samsgaard · August 2018

Thanks all. My takeaways are:

1) If a tank is aiming to apply elemental status effects using Elemental Blockade cast from the back bar with a destro staff with an elemental enchantment, then Infused (rather than Charged) is the better trait for the staff.

2) It might be better for the tank to apply elemental status effects using front bar attacks and let Elemental Blockade apply the crusher debuff.

3) However, even if the crusher enchantment goes on the back bar staff instead of on the front bar weapon, the staff's TRAIT still should be Infused.

That's good news, because it means you don't have to farm for and upgrade multiple staves in your set of choice. You can carry one staff and just swap its enchantment between elemental and crusher (or whatever else you want to proc with Blockade) to fit the needs of the situation, your playstyle, or your whim on a given day.

I've always been happy applying crusher with the front bar weapon, which (as I recall) was considered meta back in the early days, but maybe isn't so today. I can see the advantages of doing it with Blockade instead, given how the Infused trait and bar swapping now work.

jypcy · August 2018

All sounds right to me! And I’d add that if you don’t really care about the crusher debuff’s uptime, you’ll likely get the most out of an infused staff with an element enchant and charged front bar with whatever. This way, your highest chance to proc the status effect (the enchant) can be further buffed with charged while also ticking twice as often due to being applied by an infused weapon. Crusher really is a nifty debuff so I’d still recommend one of the prior setups I mentioned for maximum uptime (and stronger potency) on it. But, if you’d rather just focus on status effects, this setup is probably best for you