my take on DLC dungeons

Guppet · August 2018

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

@Guppet there needs to be more than three difficulty options, period.

I do run them on Vet. Even before I was Vet, I still wanted a challenge, and that is every bit as reasonable a request as the opposing viewpoint.

Back when dungeons were zone scaled, there were options to pursue the next tier prior to being at that tier's level. Since they introduced 1T Scale everything, that's no longer an option.

I'm not trying to deny content to anyone. There should be appropriate content for all skill and character levels.

That includes an easier version if that's what someone is after. That includes a more challenging version, even if someone is not yet level 50, and thus does not have access to the Vet versions.

Other than ZoS stubbornness, there is no reason why both of these cannot coexist alongside each other.

There are groups that don't want it harder. There are groups that don't want it easier. There should be method to accommodate both.

I think your probably right.

Seems the game is set up for 3 difficulty levels, if you think of rewards.

Green for easy
Blue for normal
Purple for hard

Maybe even yellow for ultra hard.

But it’s a lot of work to do that.

The DLC dungeons are quite possible to pug on normal, but it does require some skilled players or lots of communication.

I’m on PS4, so not seen the wolf hunter stuff yet. But I have done all up to now with pugs. But I tank, so I have a fair bit of carry potential and I’ll even explain stuff IF people will listen.

The difference in difficulty is just jarring though and if you get lucky your ok, but when things go wrong it can be a far greater shirt show than non dlc normals.

DocFrost72 · August 2018

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

profundidob16_ESO wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Most of the DLC dungeons are fine, but the new wolf hunter ones are nasty on normal. For example, my "meta" dk tank runs plague, Torug, and bloodspawn. For the purpose of this exercise, I'm operating on the assumption that bloodspawn was not active (I think it was not).

I was one shot by one of the hulking werewolves (not a boss) in the keep. The strike itself was for 47.2k damage. I was blocking, maim was up, and my resistances were no lower than 26k.

Let's do some math.

47k ÷ .5 (block reduction- it's actually more because dk but this is for fun) ÷ .85 (maim) ÷ .6 (resistances) ÷ .81 (direct damage cps) ÷ 89 (hardy cp)

The grand total comes out to 255,671.7 (rounded).

A trash mob in a normal dungeon struck a player for an unmitigated 250k damage. That's absurd, sorry. I cannot defend that. For emphasis, the boss tier Dro'mothra (sp?) In nMoL hit for far less. A freaking trial.

There are absolutely some things that could use a comb over in the new normals.

Ah this sort of stuff I recognise: 47K is the dmge when it is considered unblocked by the server. When you as tank to your best knowledge truly believe you had pressed block the cause of the unblocked damage is usually one of these:

1. Since the server and not client calculates the mechanics, a bit of lag is all it takes for the server to consider you as "having blocked too late" even though on your side everything looked ok. Happens most when the dungeon is the daily pledge since then that particular instance (read: server) is overloaded. Most annoying in vSP when not only you are considered blocking too late but also moving too late out of red cone areas even though on your screen everything's looking fine..
2. The Hulking mob raises his paws indicating that a killing blow is coming and you're absolutely ready for it as tank standing there in full block mode but -totally invisible- a few milliseconds right before that final blow lands some other mob behind you launches a cc on you (werewolf crying scream, plant strangling you, spriggan turning you into a rat) and before the animation of that cc shows on your screen you are dead since the cc had removed your block mode right as the damage from the hulking werewolf heavy attack came in.
3. You were so fascinated by the Hulking werewolf's paws you never noticed that you in fact had no stamina left right before the final blow...

I had stamina (management on a dk is a joke).

There were no mobs capable of CC at that time (it was the mage boss and his pink bubble had just fired). This was not in the garden. Are there hulkings in the garden? I don't remember, only ran this dungeon the once.

I had been holding block for maybe ten seconds. I know about the timer being irritating.

What may have happened is the mob went through the boss' red aoe (that one that enrages that I have no control over) and immediately upon getting up to me, one shotted me. I was struck for 47k through block.

The above is fact. The below is opinion.

No non boss mob in normal should one shot a properly built, blocking tank. Ever. No mechanic that cannot be controlled (where a mob spawns) should allow a one shot. The purest irony is the fight before this with the werewolf that pounces, then one shots a few seconds later I LOVED. It made group play important, but if you were paying attention you could save your team. This is absolutely not something I can defend.

@DocFrost72 if you range taunt them while they're on the stairs, they'll not step foot in the enrage circle. Obviously you have to be back from the main boss, as well. (If you're bubbled, or something, you may not always have this option.)

The Alpha WW's attack is more reasonable, at least, in that you have a few seconds to counter it. It's not an automatic one-and-done like some of the trash mobs currently in there. The timing vs some of the tells do seem a bit strict at the moment.

Yet you have other, sometimes boss level mechanics you would expect to one-shot you that do not (Lurcher thorns, for instance.)

Multiple mobs arrive at once. I did learn you cannot stay near boss very quickly, and at the time of death was not in the boss' aoe. I am willing to admit I am not the best tank in the game, not even close. Plenty of very skilled people out there. That said, I'm not bad either. I dislike the idea of a regular mob, even enraged, one shotting the tank. That though is mere opinion.

And yeah, things like the spriggan thorns should at least one shot the healer and dps if under 20k health. The wind up is so long.

Trinity_Is_My_Name · August 2018

I really don't understand how a Normal mode DLC dungeon can be so tough. I just don't get it. If you are having such a difficult time getting through a DLC dungeon in Normal I highly suggest looking at your character(s) and improving them and your skill level.

There are many build guides available and many videos on how to setup characters for their maximum potential. Instead of asking for dungeons to be nerfed again and again I suggest improving your build and skill level to beat these DLC dungeons in Normal and eventually you will be beating them in Vet and Vet HM.

profundidob16_ESO · August 2018

DocFrost72 wrote: »

profundidob16_ESO wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Most of the DLC dungeons are fine, but the new wolf hunter ones are nasty on normal. For example, my "meta" dk tank runs plague, Torug, and bloodspawn. For the purpose of this exercise, I'm operating on the assumption that bloodspawn was not active (I think it was not).

I was one shot by one of the hulking werewolves (not a boss) in the keep. The strike itself was for 47.2k damage. I was blocking, maim was up, and my resistances were no lower than 26k.

Let's do some math.

47k ÷ .5 (block reduction- it's actually more because dk but this is for fun) ÷ .85 (maim) ÷ .6 (resistances) ÷ .81 (direct damage cps) ÷ 89 (hardy cp)

The grand total comes out to 255,671.7 (rounded).

A trash mob in a normal dungeon struck a player for an unmitigated 250k damage. That's absurd, sorry. I cannot defend that. For emphasis, the boss tier Dro'mothra (sp?) In nMoL hit for far less. A freaking trial.

There are absolutely some things that could use a comb over in the new normals.

Ah this sort of stuff I recognise: 47K is the dmge when it is considered unblocked by the server. When you as tank to your best knowledge truly believe you had pressed block the cause of the unblocked damage is usually one of these:

1. Since the server and not client calculates the mechanics, a bit of lag is all it takes for the server to consider you as "having blocked too late" even though on your side everything looked ok. Happens most when the dungeon is the daily pledge since then that particular instance (read: server) is overloaded. Most annoying in vSP when not only you are considered blocking too late but also moving too late out of red cone areas even though on your screen everything's looking fine..
2. The Hulking mob raises his paws indicating that a killing blow is coming and you're absolutely ready for it as tank standing there in full block mode but -totally invisible- a few milliseconds right before that final blow lands some other mob behind you launches a cc on you (werewolf crying scream, plant strangling you, spriggan turning you into a rat) and before the animation of that cc shows on your screen you are dead since the cc had removed your block mode right as the damage from the hulking werewolf heavy attack came in.
3. You were so fascinated by the Hulking werewolf's paws you never noticed that you in fact had no stamina left right before the final blow...

No non boss mob in normal should one shot a properly built, blocking tank. Ever. No mechanic that cannot be controlled (where a mob spawns) should allow a one shot. The purest irony is the fight before this with the werewolf that pounces, then one shots a few seconds later I LOVED. It made group play important, but if you were paying attention you could save your team. This is absolutely not something I can defend.

yes they should.

The enraging circle as well as the heavy hitting hulking werewolf mob mechanics are not just some thrash mob that you can rack up along with others and then aoe dps down. They are a separate and specific specific mechanic that you must respect or die from. It is really that simple and honestly without these sort of mechanics it's just another dungeon that 4dd's blaze through at the speed of lightning within 9 minutes completed and then come boast on the forums that tanks and healers are not necessary in this game.

Its not the mob you failed at , it's the enraging circle mechanic

Just as much as allowing yourself to be strangled and then helplessly be killed or be bubbled and then helplessly getting yourself killed so is this. Allow mobs to wander freely into enraging area's is also getting yourself helplessly killed. If you decide to ignore it you pay the price...you die. And not only your own actions and knowledge of mechanics and tactics matters but that of everyone in the group matters because that is what group content is all about ! These are very easy mechanics so don't come here demanding the devs to allow you to ignore those mechanics just because you're a tank.

if the tank decides not to block => tank dies
if the tank decides to allow mobs to wander into enraging circles => everyone starts dying including tank
if the dps does not destroy purple bubble in time => affected group member dies
if the dps does not kill hulking werewolf fast enough => tank dies first and they are next

DocFrost72 · August 2018

profundidob16_ESO wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

profundidob16_ESO wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Most of the DLC dungeons are fine, but the new wolf hunter ones are nasty on normal. For example, my "meta" dk tank runs plague, Torug, and bloodspawn. For the purpose of this exercise, I'm operating on the assumption that bloodspawn was not active (I think it was not).

I was one shot by one of the hulking werewolves (not a boss) in the keep. The strike itself was for 47.2k damage. I was blocking, maim was up, and my resistances were no lower than 26k.

Let's do some math.

47k ÷ .5 (block reduction- it's actually more because dk but this is for fun) ÷ .85 (maim) ÷ .6 (resistances) ÷ .81 (direct damage cps) ÷ 89 (hardy cp)

The grand total comes out to 255,671.7 (rounded).

A trash mob in a normal dungeon struck a player for an unmitigated 250k damage. That's absurd, sorry. I cannot defend that. For emphasis, the boss tier Dro'mothra (sp?) In nMoL hit for far less. A freaking trial.

There are absolutely some things that could use a comb over in the new normals.

Ah this sort of stuff I recognise: 47K is the dmge when it is considered unblocked by the server. When you as tank to your best knowledge truly believe you had pressed block the cause of the unblocked damage is usually one of these:

1. Since the server and not client calculates the mechanics, a bit of lag is all it takes for the server to consider you as "having blocked too late" even though on your side everything looked ok. Happens most when the dungeon is the daily pledge since then that particular instance (read: server) is overloaded. Most annoying in vSP when not only you are considered blocking too late but also moving too late out of red cone areas even though on your screen everything's looking fine..
2. The Hulking mob raises his paws indicating that a killing blow is coming and you're absolutely ready for it as tank standing there in full block mode but -totally invisible- a few milliseconds right before that final blow lands some other mob behind you launches a cc on you (werewolf crying scream, plant strangling you, spriggan turning you into a rat) and before the animation of that cc shows on your screen you are dead since the cc had removed your block mode right as the damage from the hulking werewolf heavy attack came in.
3. You were so fascinated by the Hulking werewolf's paws you never noticed that you in fact had no stamina left right before the final blow...

No non boss mob in normal should one shot a properly built, blocking tank. Ever. No mechanic that cannot be controlled (where a mob spawns) should allow a one shot. The purest irony is the fight before this with the werewolf that pounces, then one shots a few seconds later I LOVED. It made group play important, but if you were paying attention you could save your team. This is absolutely not something I can defend.

yes they should.

The enraging circle as well as the heavy hitting hulking werewolf mob mechanics are not just some thrash mob that you can rack up along with others and then aoe dps down. They are a separate and specific specific mechanic that you must respect or die from. It is really that simple and honestly without these sort of mechanics it's just another dungeon that 4dd's blaze through at the speed of lightning within 9 minutes completed and then come boast on the forums that tanks and healers are not necessary in this game.

Its not the mob you failed at , it's the enraging circle mechanic

Just as much as allowing yourself to be strangled and then helplessly be killed or be bubbled and then helplessly getting yourself killed so is this. Allow mobs to wander freely into enraging area's is also getting yourself helplessly killed. If you decide to ignore it you pay the price...you die. And not only your own actions and knowledge of mechanics and tactics matters but that of everyone in the group matters because that is what group content is all about ! These are very easy mechanics so don't come here demanding the devs to allow you to ignore those mechanics just because you're a tank.

if the tank decides not to block => tank dies
if the tank decides to allow mobs to wander into enraging circles => everyone starts dying including tank
if the dps does not destroy purple bubble in time => affected group member dies
if the dps does not kill hulking werewolf fast enough => tank dies first and they are next

In a vet, sure. In my opinion, normal should not be one mistake and dead. I'm also not sure how 4 dds would suddenly breeze through the dungeon if the attack was even just 30k through block lol.

profundidob16_ESO · August 2018

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

profundidob16_ESO wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Most of the DLC dungeons are fine, but the new wolf hunter ones are nasty on normal. For example, my "meta" dk tank runs plague, Torug, and bloodspawn. For the purpose of this exercise, I'm operating on the assumption that bloodspawn was not active (I think it was not).

I was one shot by one of the hulking werewolves (not a boss) in the keep. The strike itself was for 47.2k damage. I was blocking, maim was up, and my resistances were no lower than 26k.

Let's do some math.

47k ÷ .5 (block reduction- it's actually more because dk but this is for fun) ÷ .85 (maim) ÷ .6 (resistances) ÷ .81 (direct damage cps) ÷ 89 (hardy cp)

The grand total comes out to 255,671.7 (rounded).

A trash mob in a normal dungeon struck a player for an unmitigated 250k damage. That's absurd, sorry. I cannot defend that. For emphasis, the boss tier Dro'mothra (sp?) In nMoL hit for far less. A freaking trial.

There are absolutely some things that could use a comb over in the new normals.

Ah this sort of stuff I recognise: 47K is the dmge when it is considered unblocked by the server. When you as tank to your best knowledge truly believe you had pressed block the cause of the unblocked damage is usually one of these:

1. Since the server and not client calculates the mechanics, a bit of lag is all it takes for the server to consider you as "having blocked too late" even though on your side everything looked ok. Happens most when the dungeon is the daily pledge since then that particular instance (read: server) is overloaded. Most annoying in vSP when not only you are considered blocking too late but also moving too late out of red cone areas even though on your screen everything's looking fine..
2. The Hulking mob raises his paws indicating that a killing blow is coming and you're absolutely ready for it as tank standing there in full block mode but -totally invisible- a few milliseconds right before that final blow lands some other mob behind you launches a cc on you (werewolf crying scream, plant strangling you, spriggan turning you into a rat) and before the animation of that cc shows on your screen you are dead since the cc had removed your block mode right as the damage from the hulking werewolf heavy attack came in.
3. You were so fascinated by the Hulking werewolf's paws you never noticed that you in fact had no stamina left right before the final blow...

I had stamina (management on a dk is a joke).

There were no mobs capable of CC at that time (it was the mage boss and his pink bubble had just fired). This was not in the garden. Are there hulkings in the garden? I don't remember, only ran this dungeon the once.

I had been holding block for maybe ten seconds. I know about the timer being irritating.

What may have happened is the mob went through the boss' red aoe (that one that enrages that I have no control over) and immediately upon getting up to me, one shotted me. I was struck for 47k through block.

The above is fact. The below is opinion.

No non boss mob in normal should one shot a properly built, blocking tank. Ever. No mechanic that cannot be controlled (where a mob spawns) should allow a one shot. The purest irony is the fight before this with the werewolf that pounces, then one shots a few seconds later I LOVED. It made group play important, but if you were paying attention you could save your team. This is absolutely not something I can defend.

@DocFrost72 if you range taunt them while they're on the stairs, they'll not step foot in the enrage circle. Obviously you have to be back from the main boss, as well. (If you're bubbled, or something, you may not always have this option.)

The Alpha WW's attack is more reasonable, at least, in that you have a few seconds to counter it. It's not an automatic one-and-done like some of the trash mobs currently in there. The timing vs some of the tells do seem a bit strict at the moment.

Yet you have other, sometimes boss level mechanics you would expect to one-shot you that do not (Lurcher thorns, for instance.)

Multiple mobs arrive at once. I did learn you cannot stay near boss very quickly, and at the time of death was not in the boss' aoe. I am willing to admit I am not the best tank in the game, not even close. Plenty of very skilled people out there. That said, I'm not bad either. I dislike the idea of a regular mob, even enraged, one shotting the tank. That though is mere opinion.

And yeah, things like the spriggan thorns should at least one shot the healer and dps if under 20k health. The wind up is so long.

when the position of you as tank and the others is correct, no mob will ever go near that enraging circle at all. In other words you just haven't been able to figure that out by yourself and that is fine. Just go read the solution to this puzzle in the guides that are already here on the forum and then this will never ever happen to you again. Learn the mechanics either by yourself or read up on a guide in order to learn them and become a better player.

Guppet · August 2018

Trinity_Is_My_Name wrote: »

I really don't understand how a Normal mode DLC dungeon can be so tough. I just don't get it. If you are having such a difficult time getting through a DLC dungeon in Normal I highly suggest looking at your character(s) and improving them and your skill level.

There are many build guides available and many videos on how to setup characters for their maximum potential. Instead of asking for dungeons to be nerfed again and again I suggest improving your build and skill level to beat these DLC dungeons in Normal and eventually you will be beating them in Vet and Vet HM.

This is the issue. But it makes huge assumptions. Most players don’t use forums, they don’t use guides, they don’t research before they play.

Once you make the decision to do those things, your going to be capable of completing all content. It’s a conscious decision to take things more seriously.

It’s what people should do before they go on to hard content. The problem is they are labelled normal, so people think the same mindset of not taking it too seriously will be enough, as it was with other normal content.

It is not the same difficulty level as other normal content (it’s on par with non dlc vets), it should not have the same label, that label sets expectations that result in frustration.

People don’t need to research builds or dungeon guides to do other normals, why should they accept the need to do that for dlc normals?

Strider__Roshin · August 2018

Normal mode should be a means of easing you into the mechanics so that you're more adequately prepared for veteran. People wanting this to be nerfed to the point where it's not remotely challenging is selfishness stemmed from laziness.

This game is catered to low skilled players enough as it is. Leave the DLC dungeons alone.

profundidob16_ESO · August 2018

DocFrost72 wrote: »

profundidob16_ESO wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

profundidob16_ESO wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Most of the DLC dungeons are fine, but the new wolf hunter ones are nasty on normal. For example, my "meta" dk tank runs plague, Torug, and bloodspawn. For the purpose of this exercise, I'm operating on the assumption that bloodspawn was not active (I think it was not).

I was one shot by one of the hulking werewolves (not a boss) in the keep. The strike itself was for 47.2k damage. I was blocking, maim was up, and my resistances were no lower than 26k.

Let's do some math.

47k ÷ .5 (block reduction- it's actually more because dk but this is for fun) ÷ .85 (maim) ÷ .6 (resistances) ÷ .81 (direct damage cps) ÷ 89 (hardy cp)

The grand total comes out to 255,671.7 (rounded).

A trash mob in a normal dungeon struck a player for an unmitigated 250k damage. That's absurd, sorry. I cannot defend that. For emphasis, the boss tier Dro'mothra (sp?) In nMoL hit for far less. A freaking trial.

There are absolutely some things that could use a comb over in the new normals.

Ah this sort of stuff I recognise: 47K is the dmge when it is considered unblocked by the server. When you as tank to your best knowledge truly believe you had pressed block the cause of the unblocked damage is usually one of these:

1. Since the server and not client calculates the mechanics, a bit of lag is all it takes for the server to consider you as "having blocked too late" even though on your side everything looked ok. Happens most when the dungeon is the daily pledge since then that particular instance (read: server) is overloaded. Most annoying in vSP when not only you are considered blocking too late but also moving too late out of red cone areas even though on your screen everything's looking fine..
2. The Hulking mob raises his paws indicating that a killing blow is coming and you're absolutely ready for it as tank standing there in full block mode but -totally invisible- a few milliseconds right before that final blow lands some other mob behind you launches a cc on you (werewolf crying scream, plant strangling you, spriggan turning you into a rat) and before the animation of that cc shows on your screen you are dead since the cc had removed your block mode right as the damage from the hulking werewolf heavy attack came in.
3. You were so fascinated by the Hulking werewolf's paws you never noticed that you in fact had no stamina left right before the final blow...

No non boss mob in normal should one shot a properly built, blocking tank. Ever. No mechanic that cannot be controlled (where a mob spawns) should allow a one shot. The purest irony is the fight before this with the werewolf that pounces, then one shots a few seconds later I LOVED. It made group play important, but if you were paying attention you could save your team. This is absolutely not something I can defend.

yes they should.

The enraging circle as well as the heavy hitting hulking werewolf mob mechanics are not just some thrash mob that you can rack up along with others and then aoe dps down. They are a separate and specific specific mechanic that you must respect or die from. It is really that simple and honestly without these sort of mechanics it's just another dungeon that 4dd's blaze through at the speed of lightning within 9 minutes completed and then come boast on the forums that tanks and healers are not necessary in this game.

Its not the mob you failed at , it's the enraging circle mechanic

Just as much as allowing yourself to be strangled and then helplessly be killed or be bubbled and then helplessly getting yourself killed so is this. Allow mobs to wander freely into enraging area's is also getting yourself helplessly killed. If you decide to ignore it you pay the price...you die. And not only your own actions and knowledge of mechanics and tactics matters but that of everyone in the group matters because that is what group content is all about ! These are very easy mechanics so don't come here demanding the devs to allow you to ignore those mechanics just because you're a tank.

if the tank decides not to block => tank dies
if the tank decides to allow mobs to wander into enraging circles => everyone starts dying including tank
if the dps does not destroy purple bubble in time => affected group member dies
if the dps does not kill hulking werewolf fast enough => tank dies first and they are next

In a vet, sure. In my opinion, normal should not be one mistake and dead. I'm also not sure how 4 dds would suddenly breeze through the dungeon if the attack was even just 30k through block lol.

this exactly is the source of the problem and the reason why players cannot make the jump from normal to vet dungeons and then ask that all vet dungeons be nerfed. You must realize that you are litteraly asking here to make this mechanic entirely skippable in normal mode as if it were non-existent. And then people don't understand why it's suddenly there in vet while they never got a chance to learn it in normal.

Also please realize that normal is already forgiving in fact. Even enraged if you had pressed your igneous shield right before that slam comes you will survive it instead of be 1-shot. On vet you will ! Accept that this really IS the easy version but please don't ask for mechanics to be removed entirely from normal mode. They are meant to teach you and make you adapt. On vet it causes a wipe. Here just 1 death on your part as the dps finishes off the mob. This really IS the forgiving 'easy' version. I'm sure one day in the future you'll complete vet or even hardmode and then come back smile when you read your own post so don't take it so hard

DocFrost72 · August 2018

profundidob16_ESO wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

profundidob16_ESO wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

profundidob16_ESO wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Most of the DLC dungeons are fine, but the new wolf hunter ones are nasty on normal. For example, my "meta" dk tank runs plague, Torug, and bloodspawn. For the purpose of this exercise, I'm operating on the assumption that bloodspawn was not active (I think it was not).

I was one shot by one of the hulking werewolves (not a boss) in the keep. The strike itself was for 47.2k damage. I was blocking, maim was up, and my resistances were no lower than 26k.

Let's do some math.

47k ÷ .5 (block reduction- it's actually more because dk but this is for fun) ÷ .85 (maim) ÷ .6 (resistances) ÷ .81 (direct damage cps) ÷ 89 (hardy cp)

The grand total comes out to 255,671.7 (rounded).

A trash mob in a normal dungeon struck a player for an unmitigated 250k damage. That's absurd, sorry. I cannot defend that. For emphasis, the boss tier Dro'mothra (sp?) In nMoL hit for far less. A freaking trial.

There are absolutely some things that could use a comb over in the new normals.

Ah this sort of stuff I recognise: 47K is the dmge when it is considered unblocked by the server. When you as tank to your best knowledge truly believe you had pressed block the cause of the unblocked damage is usually one of these:

1. Since the server and not client calculates the mechanics, a bit of lag is all it takes for the server to consider you as "having blocked too late" even though on your side everything looked ok. Happens most when the dungeon is the daily pledge since then that particular instance (read: server) is overloaded. Most annoying in vSP when not only you are considered blocking too late but also moving too late out of red cone areas even though on your screen everything's looking fine..
2. The Hulking mob raises his paws indicating that a killing blow is coming and you're absolutely ready for it as tank standing there in full block mode but -totally invisible- a few milliseconds right before that final blow lands some other mob behind you launches a cc on you (werewolf crying scream, plant strangling you, spriggan turning you into a rat) and before the animation of that cc shows on your screen you are dead since the cc had removed your block mode right as the damage from the hulking werewolf heavy attack came in.
3. You were so fascinated by the Hulking werewolf's paws you never noticed that you in fact had no stamina left right before the final blow...

No non boss mob in normal should one shot a properly built, blocking tank. Ever. No mechanic that cannot be controlled (where a mob spawns) should allow a one shot. The purest irony is the fight before this with the werewolf that pounces, then one shots a few seconds later I LOVED. It made group play important, but if you were paying attention you could save your team. This is absolutely not something I can defend.

yes they should.

The enraging circle as well as the heavy hitting hulking werewolf mob mechanics are not just some thrash mob that you can rack up along with others and then aoe dps down. They are a separate and specific specific mechanic that you must respect or die from. It is really that simple and honestly without these sort of mechanics it's just another dungeon that 4dd's blaze through at the speed of lightning within 9 minutes completed and then come boast on the forums that tanks and healers are not necessary in this game.

Its not the mob you failed at , it's the enraging circle mechanic

Just as much as allowing yourself to be strangled and then helplessly be killed or be bubbled and then helplessly getting yourself killed so is this. Allow mobs to wander freely into enraging area's is also getting yourself helplessly killed. If you decide to ignore it you pay the price...you die. And not only your own actions and knowledge of mechanics and tactics matters but that of everyone in the group matters because that is what group content is all about ! These are very easy mechanics so don't come here demanding the devs to allow you to ignore those mechanics just because you're a tank.

if the tank decides not to block => tank dies
if the tank decides to allow mobs to wander into enraging circles => everyone starts dying including tank
if the dps does not destroy purple bubble in time => affected group member dies
if the dps does not kill hulking werewolf fast enough => tank dies first and they are next

In a vet, sure. In my opinion, normal should not be one mistake and dead. I'm also not sure how 4 dds would suddenly breeze through the dungeon if the attack was even just 30k through block lol.

this exactly is the source of the problem and the reason why players cannot make the jump from normal to vet dungeons and then ask that all vet dungeons be nerfed. You must realize that you are litteraly asking here to make this mechanic entirely skippable in normal mode as if it were non-existent. And then people don't understand why it's suddenly there in vet while they never got a chance to learn it in normal.

Also please realize that normal is already forgiving in fact. Even enraged if you had pressed your igneous shield right before that slam comes you will survive it instead of be 1-shot. On vet you will ! Accept that this really IS the easy version but please don't ask for mechanics to be removed entirely from normal mode. They are meant to teach you and make you adapt. On vet it causes a wipe. Here just 1 death on your part as the dps finishes off the mob. This really IS the forgiving 'easy' version. I'm sure one day in the future you'll complete vet or even hardmode and then come back smile when you read your own post so don't take it so hard

Don't worry, we just disagree and that's okay! I don't take anything too hard

One thing I will reply with though to clear something up. I am not asking for vets to be nerfed at all, in fact I do enjoy veteran dungeons, including most of the DLC ones. But we're discussing (in the context of my posts) normal dungeons.

I just hate the idea of getting this as my random normal with normal pugs. My problem though, and I'll take the 15 minute penalty, but I bet that makes the group a lot less happy.

profundidob16_ESO · August 2018

one thing that I agree on completely is that regardless of vet/normal the DLC dungeons are of a higher difficulty tier and an option should exist in the group finder not to get those, even if that means a lesser reward to accommodate the feature

lientier · August 2018

well I can feel a little bit where this is coming from. I am more casual myself and I dont particularly enjoy dlc dungeons (or any dungeons actually - I dont like delves either, all so gloomy and begind a loading screen.. but have done them all)
I dont like getting dlc dungeons with random groups ( I quit quite some groups right at the start because I got a dlc at random, rather wait 15 minutes than be stuck in there with random people for a loooong time) but I have also completed some with random people with not problem. I completed of of the normal new ones with a random group and it was actually fun, trying to figure out the mechanic, and actually I think they were not that hard to fugure out - especially because there is voice over telling you what to with some stuff. Vet dlc on the other hand I have only done cradle of shadows until now, because I dont think I will enjoy it - with a random group even and it took ages.
I mean I could use the extra skillpoints, but well.. would take too long for my taste probably, or not the right people doing it, so they can explain it to me and are good enough themselves so that it's not a problem.
but I dont think they should nerf any dungeons - maybe just dont make them such a long walk, with so much annoying trashmobs.
I always hated city of ash 2 - and I won't do it (only for a skill point with a new character) because its such a LOOONG dungeon - and in vet it can be really annoying with a random group. Same goes for most of the dlc dungeons. So I was kind of positively suprised that march of sacrifices isnt that long a dungeon.

AlnilamE · August 2018

lientier wrote: »

well I can feel a little bit where this is coming from. I am more casual myself and I dont particularly enjoy dlc dungeons (or any dungeons actually - I dont like delves either, all so gloomy and begind a loading screen.. but have done them all)
I dont like getting dlc dungeons with random groups ( I quit quite some groups right at the start because I got a dlc at random, rather wait 15 minutes than be stuck in there with random people for a loooong time) but I have also completed some with random people with not problem. I completed of of the normal new ones with a random group and it was actually fun, trying to figure out the mechanic, and actually I think they were not that hard to fugure out - especially because there is voice over telling you what to with some stuff. Vet dlc on the other hand I have only done cradle of shadows until now, because I dont think I will enjoy it - with a random group even and it took ages.
I mean I could use the extra skillpoints, but well.. would take too long for my taste probably, or not the right people doing it, so they can explain it to me and are good enough themselves so that it's not a problem.
but I dont think they should nerf any dungeons - maybe just dont make them such a long walk, with so much annoying trashmobs.
I always hated city of ash 2 - and I won't do it (only for a skill point with a new character) because its such a LOOONG dungeon - and in vet it can be really annoying with a random group. Same goes for most of the dlc dungeons. So I was kind of positively suprised that march of sacrifices isnt that long a dungeon.

You do know that you don't get an additional skill point for completing a dungeon in Vet, right? Just do them on normal and you are good.

It's funny that you mention City of Ash II, because that's a non-DLC dungeon and I still think it's harder than the DLC ones (with the possible exception of Cradle of Shadows). People just got used to doing it though.

I run random dungeons often on my 4 healers, and very rarely do I get in a group where we can't complete a normal DLC dungeon. One time it was ICP, where our tank was level 12 and it was literally his first dungeon. We didn't make it past the first boss (and I called in some guildies and we took said tank through FG I so he could start off with a more appropriate dungeon). The second time was Scalecaller with a group where nobody had been there (or so it seemed) and the group gave up at the Ogre twins. But other than that, some dungeons may present more of a challenge, but they are all doable.

DocFrost72 wrote: »

profundidob16_ESO wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

profundidob16_ESO wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

profundidob16_ESO wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Most of the DLC dungeons are fine, but the new wolf hunter ones are nasty on normal. For example, my "meta" dk tank runs plague, Torug, and bloodspawn. For the purpose of this exercise, I'm operating on the assumption that bloodspawn was not active (I think it was not).

I was one shot by one of the hulking werewolves (not a boss) in the keep. The strike itself was for 47.2k damage. I was blocking, maim was up, and my resistances were no lower than 26k.

Let's do some math.

47k ÷ .5 (block reduction- it's actually more because dk but this is for fun) ÷ .85 (maim) ÷ .6 (resistances) ÷ .81 (direct damage cps) ÷ 89 (hardy cp)

The grand total comes out to 255,671.7 (rounded).

A trash mob in a normal dungeon struck a player for an unmitigated 250k damage. That's absurd, sorry. I cannot defend that. For emphasis, the boss tier Dro'mothra (sp?) In nMoL hit for far less. A freaking trial.

There are absolutely some things that could use a comb over in the new normals.

Ah this sort of stuff I recognise: 47K is the dmge when it is considered unblocked by the server. When you as tank to your best knowledge truly believe you had pressed block the cause of the unblocked damage is usually one of these:

1. Since the server and not client calculates the mechanics, a bit of lag is all it takes for the server to consider you as "having blocked too late" even though on your side everything looked ok. Happens most when the dungeon is the daily pledge since then that particular instance (read: server) is overloaded. Most annoying in vSP when not only you are considered blocking too late but also moving too late out of red cone areas even though on your screen everything's looking fine..
2. The Hulking mob raises his paws indicating that a killing blow is coming and you're absolutely ready for it as tank standing there in full block mode but -totally invisible- a few milliseconds right before that final blow lands some other mob behind you launches a cc on you (werewolf crying scream, plant strangling you, spriggan turning you into a rat) and before the animation of that cc shows on your screen you are dead since the cc had removed your block mode right as the damage from the hulking werewolf heavy attack came in.
3. You were so fascinated by the Hulking werewolf's paws you never noticed that you in fact had no stamina left right before the final blow...

No non boss mob in normal should one shot a properly built, blocking tank. Ever. No mechanic that cannot be controlled (where a mob spawns) should allow a one shot. The purest irony is the fight before this with the werewolf that pounces, then one shots a few seconds later I LOVED. It made group play important, but if you were paying attention you could save your team. This is absolutely not something I can defend.

yes they should.

The enraging circle as well as the heavy hitting hulking werewolf mob mechanics are not just some thrash mob that you can rack up along with others and then aoe dps down. They are a separate and specific specific mechanic that you must respect or die from. It is really that simple and honestly without these sort of mechanics it's just another dungeon that 4dd's blaze through at the speed of lightning within 9 minutes completed and then come boast on the forums that tanks and healers are not necessary in this game.

Its not the mob you failed at , it's the enraging circle mechanic

Just as much as allowing yourself to be strangled and then helplessly be killed or be bubbled and then helplessly getting yourself killed so is this. Allow mobs to wander freely into enraging area's is also getting yourself helplessly killed. If you decide to ignore it you pay the price...you die. And not only your own actions and knowledge of mechanics and tactics matters but that of everyone in the group matters because that is what group content is all about ! These are very easy mechanics so don't come here demanding the devs to allow you to ignore those mechanics just because you're a tank.

if the tank decides not to block => tank dies
if the tank decides to allow mobs to wander into enraging circles => everyone starts dying including tank
if the dps does not destroy purple bubble in time => affected group member dies
if the dps does not kill hulking werewolf fast enough => tank dies first and they are next

In a vet, sure. In my opinion, normal should not be one mistake and dead. I'm also not sure how 4 dds would suddenly breeze through the dungeon if the attack was even just 30k through block lol.

this exactly is the source of the problem and the reason why players cannot make the jump from normal to vet dungeons and then ask that all vet dungeons be nerfed. You must realize that you are litteraly asking here to make this mechanic entirely skippable in normal mode as if it were non-existent. And then people don't understand why it's suddenly there in vet while they never got a chance to learn it in normal.

Also please realize that normal is already forgiving in fact. Even enraged if you had pressed your igneous shield right before that slam comes you will survive it instead of be 1-shot. On vet you will ! Accept that this really IS the easy version but please don't ask for mechanics to be removed entirely from normal mode. They are meant to teach you and make you adapt. On vet it causes a wipe. Here just 1 death on your part as the dps finishes off the mob. This really IS the forgiving 'easy' version. I'm sure one day in the future you'll complete vet or even hardmode and then come back smile when you read your own post so don't take it so hard

Don't worry, we just disagree and that's okay! I don't take anything too hard

One thing I will reply with though to clear something up. I am not asking for vets to be nerfed at all, in fact I do enjoy veteran dungeons, including most of the DLC ones. But we're discussing (in the context of my posts) normal dungeons.

I just hate the idea of getting this as my random normal with normal pugs. My problem though, and I'll take the 15 minute penalty, but I bet that makes the group a lot less happy.

How many wipes does it take to make a boss "too hard" in normal? Is a dungeon where one person dies too hard? What's the criteria here?

I think it's fine to have to follow mechanics in a normal dungeon, and not just burn every thing down. That way, if you decide you want to try Vet, you are prepared for it, and you don't have to relearn the whole thing from scratch at a much higher difficulty.

Drdeath20 · August 2018

I hate that non dlc normal dungeons are soo easy that i never realize there is a dungeon mechanic. Dungeons are meant to be challenging, even on normal. People who play normal dungeons (know that they are not ready for vet dungeons) but still want the enjoyment of a group challenge and the satisfaction of getting through it.

DocFrost72 · August 2018

AlnilamE
How many wipes does it take to make a boss "too hard" in normal? Is a dungeon where one person dies too hard? What's the criteria here?

I personally think any normal that cannot be carried by one good player is a recipe for disaster once you start talking about dungeon finder groups. My group had a few experienced players to help each other when one messed up mechanically. That is not a universal luxury.

I think it's fine to have to follow mechanics in a normal dungeon, and not just burn every thing down. That way, if you decide you want to try Vet, you are prepared for it, and you don't have to relearn the whole thing from scratch at a much higher difficulty.

And not a thing above do I disagree with.

Dubhliam · August 2018

ayu_fever wrote: »

...
it is NOT as easy as “make friends, join a guild, git gud” because theres a thousand reasons why those concepts are not the solution: social anxiety, build shaming, punk kids being punk kids, elitism, getting kicked, etc
...
i dont play games to be stressed out. i want to cruise on through and not think about it too much, and i think normal mode should be brought down several notches by the nerf hammer to make this content WE PAID FOR more accessible and playable by the majority of the players.

I am sorry, but I cannot agree with you.
Normal dungeons ARE easy, and all the excuses you just gave for not even trying to learn the game are just that:

EXCUSES.

This is an MMO, a game designed to bring players to socialize and play together, you can't really expect the devs to cater to "social anxiety" player base?