Annoying Idiosyncrasy #2: The whole "Guild Store" thing

generalmyrick · August 2018

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

An intuitive search when you are in the guild trader menu is really all the current system needs. Would be nice if we received the mail as soon as we purchased but I like that we get them in the mail. Often I buy things that I want a different character to have.

Have to agree with this. I use an add-on, but I have no idea how everyone on console shops without going insane.

i got tired of our trade system long ago so i don't buy anything really. i save everything and so its rare to even really "need" anything.

if the system were more fluid and friendly i would use it. i knew people that played the game into the cp 300s that didn't even use the traders because it was too complicated and they were used to single player games where "if you want something just go quest for it."

Sylvermynx · August 2018

generalmyrick wrote: »

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

An intuitive search when you are in the guild trader menu is really all the current system needs. Would be nice if we received the mail as soon as we purchased but I like that we get them in the mail. Often I buy things that I want a different character to have.

Have to agree with this. I use an add-on, but I have no idea how everyone on console shops without going insane.

i got tired of our trade system long ago so i don't buy anything really. i save everything and so its rare to even really "need" anything.

if the system were more fluid and friendly i would use it. i knew people that played the game into the cp 300s that didn't even use the traders because it was too complicated and they were used to single player games where "if you want something just go quest for it."

Yep. Took me one time needing to buy something to figure out "not ever going there again". Now ever girl I play gathers everything she comes across. So nope, not doing the traders. I used the AH a lot in WoW and RIFT, but this particular iteration of "The Buying Game" just plain sucks.

radiostar · August 2018

It started off you needed to sell at a Keep, I think, or just internally to your guildies. Go back to that, LOL

Oh wait, that might lag out Cyro.

DirkRavenclaw · August 2018

One of the massive Things i love is that this Game doesnt have a Auction House, i makes the Economy more lively, i find there is a lot of Trouble with the way we have every week to throw a lot of money at a trader, but luckily, modern MMOs finally get away from Auction Houses, there is one new MMO where PVP is only around Traders,who travel around in Caravans, you never now where the Traders are, it changes the Economy of a Region and you have to violently take over the Trader Caravan. I like this concept.

Sylvermynx · August 2018

DirkRavenclaw wrote: »

One of the massive Things i love is that this Game doesnt have a Auction House, i makes the Economy more lively, i find there is a lot of Trouble with the way we have every week to throw a lot of money at a trader, but luckily, modern MMOs finally get away from Auction Houses, there is one new MMO where PVP is only around Traders,who travel around in Caravans, you never now where the Traders are, it changes the Economy of a Region and you have to violently take over the Trader Caravan. I like this concept.

Ugh. I wouldn't ever play a game like that. I DETEST pvp. I'm also very unhappy without a real auction house.

Each to her own.

Taleof2Cities · August 2018

Aca2017 wrote: »

I want the mercantile facet of ESO to be more like Amazon, even if it is "samey". And I don't really socialize with the people in my trading guilds ...

You can't buy this coffee mug on Amazon .. I checked:

ZeroXFF · August 2018

In essence there are 2 camps:
- people who want to play the game instead of wasting their time on searching for hours for the items they need
- concern trolls that can't bring a single argument that hasn't been refuted yet

Increasing the sales tax will solve the gold sink problem. It will also make market manipulation very hard, because margins would have to be at least as high as the tax for the manipulator to break even.

And even without high taxes market manipulation will be very difficult and only temporary, because in an attempt to control the market you will create incentives for other people to sell their stock at a higher price while still undercutting you, resulting in either you being unable to sell your items or being forced to buy up stuff from the competition at continually increasing prices and still not selling as much as you would need to to keep buying out the competition. No matter how rich you are, unless you're dealing with items that are irreplaceable (i.e can no longer be obtained by playing the game/farming), you will lose money in the long run.

A global AH will further increase the difficulty of market manipulation by suddenly including thousands of new players in the market who were previously only buyers, increasing competition.

And no, monopolies aren't going to be a thing, because you aren't actually producing anything that is protected by copyright law and patents, and cannot invent anything that another player couldn't copy at no cost to them at all.

And yeah, trading guilds are the most anti-social thing ever. If the guild is about trading, nothing else matters and the chats consist almost exclusively of MM spam. And if it isn't just about trading, they can't afford a trader on a regular basis, so they have literally nothing from the current system.

DuskMarine · August 2018

ZeroXFF wrote: »

In essence there are 2 camps:
- people who want to play the game instead of wasting their time on searching for hours for the items they need
- concern trolls that can't bring a single argument that hasn't been refuted yet

Increasing the sales tax will solve the gold sink problem. It will also make market manipulation very hard, because margins would have to be at least as high as the tax for the manipulator to break even.

And even without high taxes market manipulation will be very difficult and only temporary, because in an attempt to control the market you will create incentives for other people to sell their stock at a higher price while still undercutting you, resulting in either you being unable to sell your items or being forced to buy up stuff from the competition at continually increasing prices and still not selling as much as you would need to to keep buying out the competition. No matter how rich you are, unless you're dealing with items that are irreplaceable (i.e can no longer be obtained by playing the game/farming), you will lose money in the long run.

A global AH will further increase the difficulty of market manipulation by suddenly including thousands of new players in the market who were previously only buyers, increasing competition.

And no, monopolies aren't going to be a thing, because you aren't actually producing anything that is protected by copyright law and patents, and cannot invent anything that another player couldn't copy at no cost to them at all.

And yeah, trading guilds are the most anti-social thing ever. If the guild is about trading, nothing else matters and the chats consist almost exclusively of MM spam. And if it isn't just about trading, they can't afford a trader on a regular basis, so they have literally nothing from the current system.

you lie through your teeth theres many trade guilds who have great spots a heavily lucrative market and are also very social. you just havent found the good ones yet.

Azuramoonstar · August 2018

Lirkin wrote: »

The pricing for Auction houses could be easily resolved with a little thought but the current system can't be fixed the way it is. Just make it expensive to put an item back in the auction house to prevent people from buying lower listed items and listing them higher. That would make the auction house less likely to get inflated.
It is currently the most aggravating system that I have found and I have played a lot of online games. The current system already has the pricing issue but it can't be seen as easily. Look at the website for pricing and addons. Look at the prices around and they are not that different from an auction house system. It's just harder to find things and a good deal. To time consuming!

won't work. ff11 AH which was a real AH with blind bidding and no "buy now" option. would have a listing fee that was like 10% the item. so a 1mil cost 100K

ff14 had a market board. No bidding just buy now, and had 5%-7% tax. Meaning instead of having a listing fee you got taxed on sale.

I personally like the system as is, centralized markets are easier to manipulate, any gold sink it has becomes obsolete when people have too much money.

in ff11 and ff14 had inflation issues because of convenience, so as the games aged you saw prices go up. saw lowbie gear in both games go from 100g each, to 10K each. rmt companies enjoy the convenience as it is easier for them to do business, both games suffered from gold buying, and both economies has economy crashes. ff11 being the worst one. currently in ff14 you have dozens of people with near max gold and 0 to spend on.

I personally like the system we have now, with use you start familiarizing yourself with where the best trading guilds sell there stuff, and make notes on who they are.

ZeroXFF · August 2018

DuskMarine wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

In essence there are 2 camps:
- people who want to play the game instead of wasting their time on searching for hours for the items they need
- concern trolls that can't bring a single argument that hasn't been refuted yet

Increasing the sales tax will solve the gold sink problem. It will also make market manipulation very hard, because margins would have to be at least as high as the tax for the manipulator to break even.

And even without high taxes market manipulation will be very difficult and only temporary, because in an attempt to control the market you will create incentives for other people to sell their stock at a higher price while still undercutting you, resulting in either you being unable to sell your items or being forced to buy up stuff from the competition at continually increasing prices and still not selling as much as you would need to to keep buying out the competition. No matter how rich you are, unless you're dealing with items that are irreplaceable (i.e can no longer be obtained by playing the game/farming), you will lose money in the long run.

A global AH will further increase the difficulty of market manipulation by suddenly including thousands of new players in the market who were previously only buyers, increasing competition.

And no, monopolies aren't going to be a thing, because you aren't actually producing anything that is protected by copyright law and patents, and cannot invent anything that another player couldn't copy at no cost to them at all.

And yeah, trading guilds are the most anti-social thing ever. If the guild is about trading, nothing else matters and the chats consist almost exclusively of MM spam. And if it isn't just about trading, they can't afford a trader on a regular basis, so they have literally nothing from the current system.

you lie through your teeth theres many trade guilds who have great spots a heavily lucrative market and are also very social. you just havent found the good ones yet.

If I haven't found the good ones yet that means they are very rare. And how can you be social in a guild where you will be kicked if you don't meet an arbitrary quota? This is the kind of anti-social behavior that is being promoted by the current system. Just because some guilds manage to be social despite it, doesn't mean the system isn't creating anti-social incentives, which is the opposite of what your side tries to argue.

aaisoaho · August 2018

ZeroXFF wrote: »

DuskMarine wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

In essence there are 2 camps:
- people who want to play the game instead of wasting their time on searching for hours for the items they need
- concern trolls that can't bring a single argument that hasn't been refuted yet

Increasing the sales tax will solve the gold sink problem. It will also make market manipulation very hard, because margins would have to be at least as high as the tax for the manipulator to break even.

And even without high taxes market manipulation will be very difficult and only temporary, because in an attempt to control the market you will create incentives for other people to sell their stock at a higher price while still undercutting you, resulting in either you being unable to sell your items or being forced to buy up stuff from the competition at continually increasing prices and still not selling as much as you would need to to keep buying out the competition. No matter how rich you are, unless you're dealing with items that are irreplaceable (i.e can no longer be obtained by playing the game/farming), you will lose money in the long run.

A global AH will further increase the difficulty of market manipulation by suddenly including thousands of new players in the market who were previously only buyers, increasing competition.

And no, monopolies aren't going to be a thing, because you aren't actually producing anything that is protected by copyright law and patents, and cannot invent anything that another player couldn't copy at no cost to them at all.

And yeah, trading guilds are the most anti-social thing ever. If the guild is about trading, nothing else matters and the chats consist almost exclusively of MM spam. And if it isn't just about trading, they can't afford a trader on a regular basis, so they have literally nothing from the current system.

you lie through your teeth theres many trade guilds who have great spots a heavily lucrative market and are also very social. you just havent found the good ones yet.

If I haven't found the good ones yet that means they are very rare. And how can you be social in a guild where you will be kicked if you don't meet an arbitrary quota? This is the kind of anti-social behavior that is being promoted by the current system. Just because some guilds manage to be social despite it, doesn't mean the system isn't creating anti-social incentives, which is the opposite of what your side tries to argue.

First, your statement about rarity is false, you haven't found doesn't mean they are rare, for example I haven't found any alliance motif ever in ESO, does it make them rare? No. It just mean I haven't looked for them from the right place.

Secondly, trading and being social doesn't exclude each other. Trading can be considered as an unifying thing between the members. The trade guild I'm in has a very active guild chat and a discord channel. Our chat is not filled with price checks, so you think our trading guild is anti-social? I disagree. (And our trader is in Rawl'Kha) The quotas are really not that high. They're what, 30k sales or 5k donation per week? You can meet the quota just by doing 1 set of max level crafting writs, which takes maybe 15min max.

ZeroXFF · August 2018

aaisoaho wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

DuskMarine wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

In essence there are 2 camps:
- people who want to play the game instead of wasting their time on searching for hours for the items they need
- concern trolls that can't bring a single argument that hasn't been refuted yet

Increasing the sales tax will solve the gold sink problem. It will also make market manipulation very hard, because margins would have to be at least as high as the tax for the manipulator to break even.

And even without high taxes market manipulation will be very difficult and only temporary, because in an attempt to control the market you will create incentives for other people to sell their stock at a higher price while still undercutting you, resulting in either you being unable to sell your items or being forced to buy up stuff from the competition at continually increasing prices and still not selling as much as you would need to to keep buying out the competition. No matter how rich you are, unless you're dealing with items that are irreplaceable (i.e can no longer be obtained by playing the game/farming), you will lose money in the long run.

A global AH will further increase the difficulty of market manipulation by suddenly including thousands of new players in the market who were previously only buyers, increasing competition.

And no, monopolies aren't going to be a thing, because you aren't actually producing anything that is protected by copyright law and patents, and cannot invent anything that another player couldn't copy at no cost to them at all.

And yeah, trading guilds are the most anti-social thing ever. If the guild is about trading, nothing else matters and the chats consist almost exclusively of MM spam. And if it isn't just about trading, they can't afford a trader on a regular basis, so they have literally nothing from the current system.

you lie through your teeth theres many trade guilds who have great spots a heavily lucrative market and are also very social. you just havent found the good ones yet.

If I haven't found the good ones yet that means they are very rare. And how can you be social in a guild where you will be kicked if you don't meet an arbitrary quota? This is the kind of anti-social behavior that is being promoted by the current system. Just because some guilds manage to be social despite it, doesn't mean the system isn't creating anti-social incentives, which is the opposite of what your side tries to argue.

First, your statement about rarity is false, you haven't found doesn't mean they are rare, for example I haven't found any alliance motif ever in ESO, does it make them rare? No. It just mean I haven't looked for them from the right place.

Secondly, trading and being social doesn't exclude each other. Trading can be considered as an unifying thing between the members. The trade guild I'm in has a very active guild chat and a discord channel. Our chat is not filled with price checks, so you think our trading guild is anti-social? I disagree. (And our trader is in Rawl'Kha) The quotas are really not that high. They're what, 30k sales or 5k donation per week? You can meet the quota just by doing 1 set of max level crafting writs, which takes maybe 15min max.

I don't care about trading enough to make it in any way a "unifying" thing. I just want to be able to sell stuff I don't need.

The skill level of the guild members in a trading guild on average is so low that I can't do anything with them as most of them wouldn't be able to complete the vet DLC pledges, it's probably even worse than looking for pugs in /zone. I also joined a vSO run with the trading guild once to fail at Ozara and never try again.

So I avoid looking for people for my groups there. It's an entirely different category of people who are in trading guilds and who I actually can do anything with to even build a relationship in the first place.

Add to that the anti-social incentive structure forcing GMs to kick members based on their sales, and you got yourself guilds that don't offer anything that would make you want to actively engage with anyone, and also end whatever relationships you did build if you're inactive for more than a week.

Also, the example you brought is bad. 30k sales is quite a high mark. My hirelings alone wouldn't be able to fulfill that quota, and making donations defeats the purpose of being in a trading guild in the first place. I am there to make money, not throw it away. If I have to make "donations" (more like a club membership fee), I'm better off just vendoring the stuff I could have sold.

jedtb16_ESO · August 2018

ZeroXFF wrote: »

DuskMarine wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

In essence there are 2 camps:
- people who want to play the game instead of wasting their time on searching for hours for the items they need
- concern trolls that can't bring a single argument that hasn't been refuted yet

Increasing the sales tax will solve the gold sink problem. It will also make market manipulation very hard, because margins would have to be at least as high as the tax for the manipulator to break even.

And even without high taxes market manipulation will be very difficult and only temporary, because in an attempt to control the market you will create incentives for other people to sell their stock at a higher price while still undercutting you, resulting in either you being unable to sell your items or being forced to buy up stuff from the competition at continually increasing prices and still not selling as much as you would need to to keep buying out the competition. No matter how rich you are, unless you're dealing with items that are irreplaceable (i.e can no longer be obtained by playing the game/farming), you will lose money in the long run.

A global AH will further increase the difficulty of market manipulation by suddenly including thousands of new players in the market who were previously only buyers, increasing competition.

And no, monopolies aren't going to be a thing, because you aren't actually producing anything that is protected by copyright law and patents, and cannot invent anything that another player couldn't copy at no cost to them at all.

And yeah, trading guilds are the most anti-social thing ever. If the guild is about trading, nothing else matters and the chats consist almost exclusively of MM spam. And if it isn't just about trading, they can't afford a trader on a regular basis, so they have literally nothing from the current system.

you lie through your teeth theres many trade guilds who have great spots a heavily lucrative market and are also very social. you just havent found the good ones yet.

If I haven't found the good ones yet that means they are very rare. And how can you be social in a guild where you will be kicked if you don't meet an arbitrary quota? This is the kind of anti-social behavior that is being promoted by the current system. Just because some guilds manage to be social despite it, doesn't mean the system isn't creating anti-social incentives, which is the opposite of what your side tries to argue.

the quotas aren't arbitrary. they are gauged to ensure there are sufficient funds to meet the following weeks trader bid. most guilds also have donations. can't meet the sales requirement? make a donation instead. there is nothing 'anti-social' about it. you want the benefits then make a contribution in some form... that is entirely sociable.

TheStealthDude · August 2018

ZeroXFF wrote: »

aaisoaho wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

DuskMarine wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

In essence there are 2 camps:
- people who want to play the game instead of wasting their time on searching for hours for the items they need
- concern trolls that can't bring a single argument that hasn't been refuted yet

Increasing the sales tax will solve the gold sink problem. It will also make market manipulation very hard, because margins would have to be at least as high as the tax for the manipulator to break even.

And even without high taxes market manipulation will be very difficult and only temporary, because in an attempt to control the market you will create incentives for other people to sell their stock at a higher price while still undercutting you, resulting in either you being unable to sell your items or being forced to buy up stuff from the competition at continually increasing prices and still not selling as much as you would need to to keep buying out the competition. No matter how rich you are, unless you're dealing with items that are irreplaceable (i.e can no longer be obtained by playing the game/farming), you will lose money in the long run.

A global AH will further increase the difficulty of market manipulation by suddenly including thousands of new players in the market who were previously only buyers, increasing competition.

And no, monopolies aren't going to be a thing, because you aren't actually producing anything that is protected by copyright law and patents, and cannot invent anything that another player couldn't copy at no cost to them at all.

And yeah, trading guilds are the most anti-social thing ever. If the guild is about trading, nothing else matters and the chats consist almost exclusively of MM spam. And if it isn't just about trading, they can't afford a trader on a regular basis, so they have literally nothing from the current system.

you lie through your teeth theres many trade guilds who have great spots a heavily lucrative market and are also very social. you just havent found the good ones yet.

If I haven't found the good ones yet that means they are very rare. And how can you be social in a guild where you will be kicked if you don't meet an arbitrary quota? This is the kind of anti-social behavior that is being promoted by the current system. Just because some guilds manage to be social despite it, doesn't mean the system isn't creating anti-social incentives, which is the opposite of what your side tries to argue.

First, your statement about rarity is false, you haven't found doesn't mean they are rare, for example I haven't found any alliance motif ever in ESO, does it make them rare? No. It just mean I haven't looked for them from the right place.

Secondly, trading and being social doesn't exclude each other. Trading can be considered as an unifying thing between the members. The trade guild I'm in has a very active guild chat and a discord channel. Our chat is not filled with price checks, so you think our trading guild is anti-social? I disagree. (And our trader is in Rawl'Kha) The quotas are really not that high. They're what, 30k sales or 5k donation per week? You can meet the quota just by doing 1 set of max level crafting writs, which takes maybe 15min max.

I don't care about trading enough to make it in any way a "unifying" thing. I just want to be able to sell stuff I don't need.

The skill level of the guild members in a trading guild on average is so low that I can't do anything with them as most of them wouldn't be able to complete the vet DLC pledges, it's probably even worse than looking for pugs in /zone. I also joined a vSO run with the trading guild once to fail at Ozara and never try again.

So I avoid looking for people for my groups there. It's an entirely different category of people who are in trading guilds and who I actually can do anything with to even build a relationship in the first place.

Add to that the anti-social incentive structure forcing GMs to kick members based on their sales, and you got yourself guilds that don't offer anything that would make you want to actively engage with anyone, and also end whatever relationships you did build if you're inactive for more than a week.

Also, the example you brought is bad. 30k sales is quite a high mark. My hirelings alone wouldn't be able to fulfill that quota, and making donations defeats the purpose of being in a trading guild in the first place. I am there to make money, not throw it away. If I have to make "donations" (more like a club membership fee), I'm better off just vendoring the stuff I could have sold.

"Why should I have to pay rent for this shopping center space to have my business sell goods here!?!?!?"

That's what you are basically saying.

Sergykid · August 2018

agree with everything u say, and Z0$ won't even give an answer "why".

it's extremely irritating to buy anything without checking tamriel trade centre site. I use it at any purchase. This way guilds from unpopulated areas also get some visitors

idk · August 2018

Aca2017 wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Zos didn’t want ya he boring stale central kiosk found is many, but not all games. They wanted it to be more of a social trading scene and that’s what we have with a guild based trading system.

Real-life analogy:

I would find it really rough to have to get in the car and travel around from store to store "hoping" (on speculation) to find what I wanted (aka "availability"), or even just to price what I wanted (aka "price transparency"). It would be even worse if I used some sort of web tool to locate what I wanted, presumably at the best price, only to travel to the store and find it is sold out, and have to start all over again... ON EVERYTHING I WANTED TO BUY.

I am afraid I am the sort of person who likes Amazon's model. Single point of sale. Unparalleled selection (with few exceptions, which generally involve perishable goods and specialized/high-ticket merchandise, if it is made you can pretty much find it on Amazon). Good prices (driven by internal competition). Coherent, well designed, functional (i.e. not defect prone), performant interface. Delivery to my door.

This minimizes the time I have to spend "shopping", and maximizes the time I have available to enjoy what I really enjoy about life: getting interesting work done, keeping up with the news (is is the duty of every citizen to remain informed), getting out and seeing/doing things (or staying inside and reading, watching vintage movies, etc), descending into subterranean areas to test my combat prowess against... oh, wait, that's not real-life! This also helps me avoid the stuff I don't enjoy about life: sitting in city traffic, "comparison shopping", dealing with frustrating supply issues, and in general not doing the things I enjoy about life, etc.

I want the mercantile facet of ESO to be more like Amazon, even if it is "samey". And I don't really socialize with the people in my trading guilds (and if the design purpose was making buy/sell/trade "social", there would be no "store" mechanism of any kind, everyone would have to hawk stuff live in game chat, and/or an external/third-party web-based mechanism would develop that would basically be guaranteed to operate like Amazon).

The Amazon model is successful for a reason. But... to each their own.

This isn’t real life. I be analogy is meaningless.

I’ll explain again in simple terms.

1. The devs really liked the idea of social guild based trading. They talked about it plenty before the game launched. This is someone’s baby and probably someone in the a place of making a decision.

2. The current system has undeniably delivers a vibrant, robust economy to ESO. Millions of gold trade hands daily as a result.

3. Games don’t overhaul their in game economic engine 4 years in.

So in the end it it’s a solid fact that no matter how many threads on this subject are created guild traders are here to stay.

AlnilamE · August 2018

OP, your post is interesting because your points 1-4 are actually things I enjoy about the system in ESO, as opposed to games that have an Auction House/Marketplace. It's fun stopping at a trader you meet along the way to see what they have and finding a recipe or motif page that you still need. Or a weapon you wanted for one of your alts.

And the two trading guilds I'm in are really nice and friendly. I've been with one of them for several years.

Points 5-6 are things that the community have asked for a long time. Having the AwesomeGuildStore addon integrated into the UI would be a major improvement and would make people complain less about the system.

I'm not sure why they decided to mail you items you buy, but I guess each game sorts this out in their own way (and it would allow you to buy something while having a full inventory, for example). GW2 puts the items you buy at the Trading Outpost in a "cart" and you have to withdraw them after you buy them. I can't count how many times I was half-way back to the crafting station before I realized I had not picked up all the mats I had bought.

ZeroXFF · August 2018

TheStealthDude wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

aaisoaho wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

DuskMarine wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

In essence there are 2 camps:
- people who want to play the game instead of wasting their time on searching for hours for the items they need
- concern trolls that can't bring a single argument that hasn't been refuted yet

Increasing the sales tax will solve the gold sink problem. It will also make market manipulation very hard, because margins would have to be at least as high as the tax for the manipulator to break even.

And even without high taxes market manipulation will be very difficult and only temporary, because in an attempt to control the market you will create incentives for other people to sell their stock at a higher price while still undercutting you, resulting in either you being unable to sell your items or being forced to buy up stuff from the competition at continually increasing prices and still not selling as much as you would need to to keep buying out the competition. No matter how rich you are, unless you're dealing with items that are irreplaceable (i.e can no longer be obtained by playing the game/farming), you will lose money in the long run.

A global AH will further increase the difficulty of market manipulation by suddenly including thousands of new players in the market who were previously only buyers, increasing competition.

And no, monopolies aren't going to be a thing, because you aren't actually producing anything that is protected by copyright law and patents, and cannot invent anything that another player couldn't copy at no cost to them at all.

And yeah, trading guilds are the most anti-social thing ever. If the guild is about trading, nothing else matters and the chats consist almost exclusively of MM spam. And if it isn't just about trading, they can't afford a trader on a regular basis, so they have literally nothing from the current system.

you lie through your teeth theres many trade guilds who have great spots a heavily lucrative market and are also very social. you just havent found the good ones yet.

If I haven't found the good ones yet that means they are very rare. And how can you be social in a guild where you will be kicked if you don't meet an arbitrary quota? This is the kind of anti-social behavior that is being promoted by the current system. Just because some guilds manage to be social despite it, doesn't mean the system isn't creating anti-social incentives, which is the opposite of what your side tries to argue.

First, your statement about rarity is false, you haven't found doesn't mean they are rare, for example I haven't found any alliance motif ever in ESO, does it make them rare? No. It just mean I haven't looked for them from the right place.

Secondly, trading and being social doesn't exclude each other. Trading can be considered as an unifying thing between the members. The trade guild I'm in has a very active guild chat and a discord channel. Our chat is not filled with price checks, so you think our trading guild is anti-social? I disagree. (And our trader is in Rawl'Kha) The quotas are really not that high. They're what, 30k sales or 5k donation per week? You can meet the quota just by doing 1 set of max level crafting writs, which takes maybe 15min max.

I don't care about trading enough to make it in any way a "unifying" thing. I just want to be able to sell stuff I don't need.

The skill level of the guild members in a trading guild on average is so low that I can't do anything with them as most of them wouldn't be able to complete the vet DLC pledges, it's probably even worse than looking for pugs in /zone. I also joined a vSO run with the trading guild once to fail at Ozara and never try again.

So I avoid looking for people for my groups there. It's an entirely different category of people who are in trading guilds and who I actually can do anything with to even build a relationship in the first place.

Add to that the anti-social incentive structure forcing GMs to kick members based on their sales, and you got yourself guilds that don't offer anything that would make you want to actively engage with anyone, and also end whatever relationships you did build if you're inactive for more than a week.

Also, the example you brought is bad. 30k sales is quite a high mark. My hirelings alone wouldn't be able to fulfill that quota, and making donations defeats the purpose of being in a trading guild in the first place. I am there to make money, not throw it away. If I have to make "donations" (more like a club membership fee), I'm better off just vendoring the stuff I could have sold.

"Why should I have to pay rent for this shopping center space to have my business sell goods here!?!?!?"

That's what you are basically saying.

Lol. No. More like "why force everyone to open their own shop if we can have eBay". Just shows us how little you understand of the conversation you participate in. Maybe if you tried listening instead of being condescending and misrepresenting me, we would have a productive conversation.

I understand why the guilds ask for fees, but it's them working with a broken system forcing them to become exclusive clubs even if they don't want to.

Don't confuse the criticism of the system with just not wanting to spend gold. The gold you pay in fees should be proportional to the gold you make, and that is not the case with a system that punishes people with low sales. An AH with a flat sales tax or one that increases with the amount of gold you make is much more sensible than a system that creates a barrier to entry and makes people who earn little gold to sometimes spend more than they make through this system.

TheStealthDude · August 2018

ZeroXFF wrote: »

TheStealthDude wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

aaisoaho wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

DuskMarine wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

In essence there are 2 camps:
- people who want to play the game instead of wasting their time on searching for hours for the items they need
- concern trolls that can't bring a single argument that hasn't been refuted yet

Increasing the sales tax will solve the gold sink problem. It will also make market manipulation very hard, because margins would have to be at least as high as the tax for the manipulator to break even.

And even without high taxes market manipulation will be very difficult and only temporary, because in an attempt to control the market you will create incentives for other people to sell their stock at a higher price while still undercutting you, resulting in either you being unable to sell your items or being forced to buy up stuff from the competition at continually increasing prices and still not selling as much as you would need to to keep buying out the competition. No matter how rich you are, unless you're dealing with items that are irreplaceable (i.e can no longer be obtained by playing the game/farming), you will lose money in the long run.

A global AH will further increase the difficulty of market manipulation by suddenly including thousands of new players in the market who were previously only buyers, increasing competition.

And no, monopolies aren't going to be a thing, because you aren't actually producing anything that is protected by copyright law and patents, and cannot invent anything that another player couldn't copy at no cost to them at all.

And yeah, trading guilds are the most anti-social thing ever. If the guild is about trading, nothing else matters and the chats consist almost exclusively of MM spam. And if it isn't just about trading, they can't afford a trader on a regular basis, so they have literally nothing from the current system.

you lie through your teeth theres many trade guilds who have great spots a heavily lucrative market and are also very social. you just havent found the good ones yet.

If I haven't found the good ones yet that means they are very rare. And how can you be social in a guild where you will be kicked if you don't meet an arbitrary quota? This is the kind of anti-social behavior that is being promoted by the current system. Just because some guilds manage to be social despite it, doesn't mean the system isn't creating anti-social incentives, which is the opposite of what your side tries to argue.

First, your statement about rarity is false, you haven't found doesn't mean they are rare, for example I haven't found any alliance motif ever in ESO, does it make them rare? No. It just mean I haven't looked for them from the right place.

Secondly, trading and being social doesn't exclude each other. Trading can be considered as an unifying thing between the members. The trade guild I'm in has a very active guild chat and a discord channel. Our chat is not filled with price checks, so you think our trading guild is anti-social? I disagree. (And our trader is in Rawl'Kha) The quotas are really not that high. They're what, 30k sales or 5k donation per week? You can meet the quota just by doing 1 set of max level crafting writs, which takes maybe 15min max.

I don't care about trading enough to make it in any way a "unifying" thing. I just want to be able to sell stuff I don't need.

The skill level of the guild members in a trading guild on average is so low that I can't do anything with them as most of them wouldn't be able to complete the vet DLC pledges, it's probably even worse than looking for pugs in /zone. I also joined a vSO run with the trading guild once to fail at Ozara and never try again.

So I avoid looking for people for my groups there. It's an entirely different category of people who are in trading guilds and who I actually can do anything with to even build a relationship in the first place.

Add to that the anti-social incentive structure forcing GMs to kick members based on their sales, and you got yourself guilds that don't offer anything that would make you want to actively engage with anyone, and also end whatever relationships you did build if you're inactive for more than a week.

Also, the example you brought is bad. 30k sales is quite a high mark. My hirelings alone wouldn't be able to fulfill that quota, and making donations defeats the purpose of being in a trading guild in the first place. I am there to make money, not throw it away. If I have to make "donations" (more like a club membership fee), I'm better off just vendoring the stuff I could have sold.

"Why should I have to pay rent for this shopping center space to have my business sell goods here!?!?!?"

That's what you are basically saying.

Lol. No. More like "why force everyone to open their own shop if we can have eBay". Just shows us how little you understand of the conversation you participate in. Maybe if you tried listening instead of being condescending and misrepresenting me, we would have a productive conversation.

I understand why the guilds ask for fees, but it's them working with a broken system forcing them to become exclusive clubs even if they don't want to.

Don't confuse the criticism of the system with just not wanting to spend gold. The gold you pay in fees should be proportional to the gold you make, and that is not the case with a system that punishes people with low sales. An AH with a flat sales tax or one that increases with the amount of gold you make is much more sensible than a system that creates a barrier to entry and makes people who earn little gold to sometimes spend more than they make through this system.

Such a barrier to entry: 2 weeks ago, I spent 5 minutes applying to a guild online, received invite same day. I farmed for less than an hour, listed equipment I found. Made the sales requirement in less than 24 hours later off of that. Didn't have to pay any dues.

Man that barrier to entry was TOUGH to break through, I tell you!

Anyone can do this. The system is not the problem.

ZeroXFF · August 2018

TheStealthDude wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

TheStealthDude wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

aaisoaho wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

DuskMarine wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

In essence there are 2 camps:
- people who want to play the game instead of wasting their time on searching for hours for the items they need
- concern trolls that can't bring a single argument that hasn't been refuted yet

Increasing the sales tax will solve the gold sink problem. It will also make market manipulation very hard, because margins would have to be at least as high as the tax for the manipulator to break even.

And even without high taxes market manipulation will be very difficult and only temporary, because in an attempt to control the market you will create incentives for other people to sell their stock at a higher price while still undercutting you, resulting in either you being unable to sell your items or being forced to buy up stuff from the competition at continually increasing prices and still not selling as much as you would need to to keep buying out the competition. No matter how rich you are, unless you're dealing with items that are irreplaceable (i.e can no longer be obtained by playing the game/farming), you will lose money in the long run.

A global AH will further increase the difficulty of market manipulation by suddenly including thousands of new players in the market who were previously only buyers, increasing competition.

And no, monopolies aren't going to be a thing, because you aren't actually producing anything that is protected by copyright law and patents, and cannot invent anything that another player couldn't copy at no cost to them at all.

And yeah, trading guilds are the most anti-social thing ever. If the guild is about trading, nothing else matters and the chats consist almost exclusively of MM spam. And if it isn't just about trading, they can't afford a trader on a regular basis, so they have literally nothing from the current system.

you lie through your teeth theres many trade guilds who have great spots a heavily lucrative market and are also very social. you just havent found the good ones yet.

If I haven't found the good ones yet that means they are very rare. And how can you be social in a guild where you will be kicked if you don't meet an arbitrary quota? This is the kind of anti-social behavior that is being promoted by the current system. Just because some guilds manage to be social despite it, doesn't mean the system isn't creating anti-social incentives, which is the opposite of what your side tries to argue.

First, your statement about rarity is false, you haven't found doesn't mean they are rare, for example I haven't found any alliance motif ever in ESO, does it make them rare? No. It just mean I haven't looked for them from the right place.

Secondly, trading and being social doesn't exclude each other. Trading can be considered as an unifying thing between the members. The trade guild I'm in has a very active guild chat and a discord channel. Our chat is not filled with price checks, so you think our trading guild is anti-social? I disagree. (And our trader is in Rawl'Kha) The quotas are really not that high. They're what, 30k sales or 5k donation per week? You can meet the quota just by doing 1 set of max level crafting writs, which takes maybe 15min max.

I don't care about trading enough to make it in any way a "unifying" thing. I just want to be able to sell stuff I don't need.

The skill level of the guild members in a trading guild on average is so low that I can't do anything with them as most of them wouldn't be able to complete the vet DLC pledges, it's probably even worse than looking for pugs in /zone. I also joined a vSO run with the trading guild once to fail at Ozara and never try again.

So I avoid looking for people for my groups there. It's an entirely different category of people who are in trading guilds and who I actually can do anything with to even build a relationship in the first place.

Add to that the anti-social incentive structure forcing GMs to kick members based on their sales, and you got yourself guilds that don't offer anything that would make you want to actively engage with anyone, and also end whatever relationships you did build if you're inactive for more than a week.

Also, the example you brought is bad. 30k sales is quite a high mark. My hirelings alone wouldn't be able to fulfill that quota, and making donations defeats the purpose of being in a trading guild in the first place. I am there to make money, not throw it away. If I have to make "donations" (more like a club membership fee), I'm better off just vendoring the stuff I could have sold.

"Why should I have to pay rent for this shopping center space to have my business sell goods here!?!?!?"

That's what you are basically saying.

Lol. No. More like "why force everyone to open their own shop if we can have eBay". Just shows us how little you understand of the conversation you participate in. Maybe if you tried listening instead of being condescending and misrepresenting me, we would have a productive conversation.

I understand why the guilds ask for fees, but it's them working with a broken system forcing them to become exclusive clubs even if they don't want to.

Don't confuse the criticism of the system with just not wanting to spend gold. The gold you pay in fees should be proportional to the gold you make, and that is not the case with a system that punishes people with low sales. An AH with a flat sales tax or one that increases with the amount of gold you make is much more sensible than a system that creates a barrier to entry and makes people who earn little gold to sometimes spend more than they make through this system.

Such a barrier to entry: 2 weeks ago, I spent 5 minutes applying to a guild online, received invite same day. I farmed for less than an hour, listed equipment I found. Made the sales requirement in less than 24 hours later off of that. Didn't have to pay any dues.

Man that barrier to entry was TOUGH to break through, I tell you!

Anyone can do this. The system is not the problem.

So instead of going out and doing something fun you went farming. And you still don't see how that is a barrier to entry?

Also in all this you're ignoring the buyer side. Spending hours to find the item you want is not fun either.

I'd rather just play the game than do a 2nd job. The less and the shorter the interactions with the trader the more time I have to actually do something fun.

jedtb16_ESO · August 2018

ZeroXFF wrote: »

TheStealthDude wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

TheStealthDude wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

aaisoaho wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

DuskMarine wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

In essence there are 2 camps:
- people who want to play the game instead of wasting their time on searching for hours for the items they need
- concern trolls that can't bring a single argument that hasn't been refuted yet

Increasing the sales tax will solve the gold sink problem. It will also make market manipulation very hard, because margins would have to be at least as high as the tax for the manipulator to break even.

And even without high taxes market manipulation will be very difficult and only temporary, because in an attempt to control the market you will create incentives for other people to sell their stock at a higher price while still undercutting you, resulting in either you being unable to sell your items or being forced to buy up stuff from the competition at continually increasing prices and still not selling as much as you would need to to keep buying out the competition. No matter how rich you are, unless you're dealing with items that are irreplaceable (i.e can no longer be obtained by playing the game/farming), you will lose money in the long run.

A global AH will further increase the difficulty of market manipulation by suddenly including thousands of new players in the market who were previously only buyers, increasing competition.

And no, monopolies aren't going to be a thing, because you aren't actually producing anything that is protected by copyright law and patents, and cannot invent anything that another player couldn't copy at no cost to them at all.

And yeah, trading guilds are the most anti-social thing ever. If the guild is about trading, nothing else matters and the chats consist almost exclusively of MM spam. And if it isn't just about trading, they can't afford a trader on a regular basis, so they have literally nothing from the current system.

you lie through your teeth theres many trade guilds who have great spots a heavily lucrative market and are also very social. you just havent found the good ones yet.

If I haven't found the good ones yet that means they are very rare. And how can you be social in a guild where you will be kicked if you don't meet an arbitrary quota? This is the kind of anti-social behavior that is being promoted by the current system. Just because some guilds manage to be social despite it, doesn't mean the system isn't creating anti-social incentives, which is the opposite of what your side tries to argue.

First, your statement about rarity is false, you haven't found doesn't mean they are rare, for example I haven't found any alliance motif ever in ESO, does it make them rare? No. It just mean I haven't looked for them from the right place.

Secondly, trading and being social doesn't exclude each other. Trading can be considered as an unifying thing between the members. The trade guild I'm in has a very active guild chat and a discord channel. Our chat is not filled with price checks, so you think our trading guild is anti-social? I disagree. (And our trader is in Rawl'Kha) The quotas are really not that high. They're what, 30k sales or 5k donation per week? You can meet the quota just by doing 1 set of max level crafting writs, which takes maybe 15min max.

I don't care about trading enough to make it in any way a "unifying" thing. I just want to be able to sell stuff I don't need.

The skill level of the guild members in a trading guild on average is so low that I can't do anything with them as most of them wouldn't be able to complete the vet DLC pledges, it's probably even worse than looking for pugs in /zone. I also joined a vSO run with the trading guild once to fail at Ozara and never try again.

So I avoid looking for people for my groups there. It's an entirely different category of people who are in trading guilds and who I actually can do anything with to even build a relationship in the first place.

Add to that the anti-social incentive structure forcing GMs to kick members based on their sales, and you got yourself guilds that don't offer anything that would make you want to actively engage with anyone, and also end whatever relationships you did build if you're inactive for more than a week.

Also, the example you brought is bad. 30k sales is quite a high mark. My hirelings alone wouldn't be able to fulfill that quota, and making donations defeats the purpose of being in a trading guild in the first place. I am there to make money, not throw it away. If I have to make "donations" (more like a club membership fee), I'm better off just vendoring the stuff I could have sold.

"Why should I have to pay rent for this shopping center space to have my business sell goods here!?!?!?"

That's what you are basically saying.

Lol. No. More like "why force everyone to open their own shop if we can have eBay". Just shows us how little you understand of the conversation you participate in. Maybe if you tried listening instead of being condescending and misrepresenting me, we would have a productive conversation.

I understand why the guilds ask for fees, but it's them working with a broken system forcing them to become exclusive clubs even if they don't want to.

Don't confuse the criticism of the system with just not wanting to spend gold. The gold you pay in fees should be proportional to the gold you make, and that is not the case with a system that punishes people with low sales. An AH with a flat sales tax or one that increases with the amount of gold you make is much more sensible than a system that creates a barrier to entry and makes people who earn little gold to sometimes spend more than they make through this system.

Such a barrier to entry: 2 weeks ago, I spent 5 minutes applying to a guild online, received invite same day. I farmed for less than an hour, listed equipment I found. Made the sales requirement in less than 24 hours later off of that. Didn't have to pay any dues.

Man that barrier to entry was TOUGH to break through, I tell you!

Anyone can do this. The system is not the problem.

So instead of going out and doing something fun you went farming. And you still don't see how that is a barrier to entry?

Also in all this you're ignoring the buyer side. Spending hours to find the item you want is not fun either.

I'd rather just play the game than do a 2nd job. The less and the shorter the interactions with the trader the more time I have to actually do something fun.

farming is fun...

Ydrisselle · August 2018

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

TheStealthDude wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

TheStealthDude wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

aaisoaho wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

DuskMarine wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

In essence there are 2 camps:
- people who want to play the game instead of wasting their time on searching for hours for the items they need
- concern trolls that can't bring a single argument that hasn't been refuted yet

Increasing the sales tax will solve the gold sink problem. It will also make market manipulation very hard, because margins would have to be at least as high as the tax for the manipulator to break even.

And even without high taxes market manipulation will be very difficult and only temporary, because in an attempt to control the market you will create incentives for other people to sell their stock at a higher price while still undercutting you, resulting in either you being unable to sell your items or being forced to buy up stuff from the competition at continually increasing prices and still not selling as much as you would need to to keep buying out the competition. No matter how rich you are, unless you're dealing with items that are irreplaceable (i.e can no longer be obtained by playing the game/farming), you will lose money in the long run.

A global AH will further increase the difficulty of market manipulation by suddenly including thousands of new players in the market who were previously only buyers, increasing competition.

And no, monopolies aren't going to be a thing, because you aren't actually producing anything that is protected by copyright law and patents, and cannot invent anything that another player couldn't copy at no cost to them at all.

And yeah, trading guilds are the most anti-social thing ever. If the guild is about trading, nothing else matters and the chats consist almost exclusively of MM spam. And if it isn't just about trading, they can't afford a trader on a regular basis, so they have literally nothing from the current system.

you lie through your teeth theres many trade guilds who have great spots a heavily lucrative market and are also very social. you just havent found the good ones yet.

If I haven't found the good ones yet that means they are very rare. And how can you be social in a guild where you will be kicked if you don't meet an arbitrary quota? This is the kind of anti-social behavior that is being promoted by the current system. Just because some guilds manage to be social despite it, doesn't mean the system isn't creating anti-social incentives, which is the opposite of what your side tries to argue.

First, your statement about rarity is false, you haven't found doesn't mean they are rare, for example I haven't found any alliance motif ever in ESO, does it make them rare? No. It just mean I haven't looked for them from the right place.

Secondly, trading and being social doesn't exclude each other. Trading can be considered as an unifying thing between the members. The trade guild I'm in has a very active guild chat and a discord channel. Our chat is not filled with price checks, so you think our trading guild is anti-social? I disagree. (And our trader is in Rawl'Kha) The quotas are really not that high. They're what, 30k sales or 5k donation per week? You can meet the quota just by doing 1 set of max level crafting writs, which takes maybe 15min max.

I don't care about trading enough to make it in any way a "unifying" thing. I just want to be able to sell stuff I don't need.

The skill level of the guild members in a trading guild on average is so low that I can't do anything with them as most of them wouldn't be able to complete the vet DLC pledges, it's probably even worse than looking for pugs in /zone. I also joined a vSO run with the trading guild once to fail at Ozara and never try again.

So I avoid looking for people for my groups there. It's an entirely different category of people who are in trading guilds and who I actually can do anything with to even build a relationship in the first place.

Add to that the anti-social incentive structure forcing GMs to kick members based on their sales, and you got yourself guilds that don't offer anything that would make you want to actively engage with anyone, and also end whatever relationships you did build if you're inactive for more than a week.

Also, the example you brought is bad. 30k sales is quite a high mark. My hirelings alone wouldn't be able to fulfill that quota, and making donations defeats the purpose of being in a trading guild in the first place. I am there to make money, not throw it away. If I have to make "donations" (more like a club membership fee), I'm better off just vendoring the stuff I could have sold.

"Why should I have to pay rent for this shopping center space to have my business sell goods here!?!?!?"

That's what you are basically saying.

Lol. No. More like "why force everyone to open their own shop if we can have eBay". Just shows us how little you understand of the conversation you participate in. Maybe if you tried listening instead of being condescending and misrepresenting me, we would have a productive conversation.

I understand why the guilds ask for fees, but it's them working with a broken system forcing them to become exclusive clubs even if they don't want to.

Don't confuse the criticism of the system with just not wanting to spend gold. The gold you pay in fees should be proportional to the gold you make, and that is not the case with a system that punishes people with low sales. An AH with a flat sales tax or one that increases with the amount of gold you make is much more sensible than a system that creates a barrier to entry and makes people who earn little gold to sometimes spend more than they make through this system.

Such a barrier to entry: 2 weeks ago, I spent 5 minutes applying to a guild online, received invite same day. I farmed for less than an hour, listed equipment I found. Made the sales requirement in less than 24 hours later off of that. Didn't have to pay any dues.

Man that barrier to entry was TOUGH to break through, I tell you!

Anyone can do this. The system is not the problem.

So instead of going out and doing something fun you went farming. And you still don't see how that is a barrier to entry?

Also in all this you're ignoring the buyer side. Spending hours to find the item you want is not fun either.

I'd rather just play the game than do a 2nd job. The less and the shorter the interactions with the trader the more time I have to actually do something fun.

farming is fun...

Not for everyone, just like for any other in-game activity, there will be somebody who hates it. I don't hate farming, but I don't like it particularly, so I tend to avoid it.