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Silks of the Sun vs Julianos (MagDK)

Thestephenmcraeub17_ESO
Hi all, I'm looking at my PvE gear on my magDK and wondering if I need to make any changes to it to be more effective. Right now, I'm running 5 BSW (divines), 2 Skoria (impen, but I also use this for PvP...), and 5 Infallible Aether (divines, gold jewels) BSW inferno staves on both bars. I was wondering if switching out Infallible Aether for either Silks or Julianos would provide a DPS boost in PvE (I never use heavy attacks, so Infallible Aether feels kind of useless on this toon, I might hand it off to my magsorc who handles my vMA runs). I like to run engame PvE on my magDK but I don't want to burden my groups (if groups even run with mDKs anymore), so I just wanted some input on which set is better.

It seems to me just by looking at the set bonuses that Silks will perform better, since it's an extra 100 spell damage over juli, and literally 100% of my outgoing damage is fire -- the thing I don't know, however, is whether or not Silks applies it's extra damage to light attacks and enchants. If so, then I'm pretty much sold on that one (running the Thief so I don't really need crit from juli), but if there's something you guys think I should know before taking the plunge, let me know!

What are your experiences with either? Any immediately noticeable drawbacks of either? Any immediately noticeable benefits on a magDK?

(and please don't suggest I run perfected Siroria, I understand it's BiS vs target dummies, but as a melee-range class, I don't have the luxury of standing in one place for an entire fight in PvE trials, HM vet dungeons, and vMA)
  • GreenHere
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    Two A few things to consider:

    - Juli is craftable, so you can get it and try it out in like 5 minutes, almost for free. Plus you can get a Cuirass made, or any other combo of armor weights for your build to maximize your resists, armor passive bonuses, and max stats (via Undaunted passives). That factors pretty heavily into the decision, imo.

    - Silks gives a Max Health bonus. This may be good or bad, depending on what you want. If you're min/maxing for straight up dps, that health is a "loss". But dead damage dealers don't deal much damage, so...

    EDIT:: Not having tested this myself in long enough that I can't remember with any certainty, and not being able to find any solid sources right now, disregard what I said below. I can't promise that Silks does or doesn't benefit from Major/Minor Sorcery. What I can say is, unless you deal exclusively flame damage (which is quite feasible for a magDK!), Silks isn't usually your best option since other sets that give Spell Damage can boost up your healing and other types of damage whereas Silks would not. Think about (or if you're on PC, look at your Combat Metrics report!) any damage you do that isn't flame, or healing you do for yourself/others. Synergies, for instance. If there's any significant skills that aren't being boosted by Silks' set bonus, then that's makes Juli that much more attractive. ::EDIT

    - Silks adds 400 (versus Juli's 299), but only to flame damage attacks directly. This includes your light, heavies, and enchantments, BUT it's tacked onto the attack itself. Julianos adds 299 to your base Spell Damage, which is then multiplied by all other buffs that affect Spell Damage. So Juli scales up, and up, and up, depending on the situation/group you're in. Silks stays a static 400. In solo / testing, you may see Silks perform a bit better, but in most "real" situations Juli will still do better due to this scaling.

    (Disclaimer: This information is passed on from sources I trust, mostly from reading into this very question here on the forum. I have not tested them on the PTS or anything. This is just my understanding of why Juli/Hunding's > all of those (add 400 damage to X attacks) sets.)
    Edited by GreenHere on August 15, 2018 12:56PM
  • GreenHere
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    Also, just wanted to add that the general consensus on this seems to be more or less what I said, but often by a very small margin for most people. Not knowing what kind of dps tier you're aiming for, Silks could be 0.4K dps less than Juli (or vice versa, depending on your build etc.), or it could be a 6k dps difference.

    If you're in the 40k+ dps territory, small differences for most of us can end up being quite large differences for you. At that point, you should test for yourself if possible, or get advice from someone more knowledgeable than me. ;P
  • John_Falstaff
    John_Falstaff
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    @GreenHere , not quite objecting, but I feel that it'll be worth putting to test. I've always thought that sets that "add X spell/weapon damage to such-and-such skills" would essentially add buffable damage (like Automaton - the damage it adds is buffable) that will be put through same pipeline of armor passive bonuses, CP and so on and so forth. With only difference that only certain skills will add that bonus to their base damage.

    Now, I also don't know with absolute certainty how things work under the hood, just think that it's worth testing just to be sure.
  • GreenHere
    GreenHere
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    @GreenHere , not quite objecting, but I feel that it'll be worth putting to test. I've always thought that sets that "add X spell/weapon damage to such-and-such skills" would essentially add buffable damage (like Automaton - the damage it adds is buffable) that will be put through same pipeline of armor passive bonuses, CP and so on and so forth. With only difference that only certain skills will add that bonus to their base damage.

    Now, I also don't know with absolute certainty how things work under the hood, just think that it's worth testing just to be sure.

    Good call, and I agree. I can't vouch for how sets like Silks, Automaton, etc. work exactly, I just go by what I've read. Which I may have misremembered, may be outdated, or just misunderstood in the first place! I think your CP effects those 400 to x damage sets in that CP affects all you do, but buffs like Major Sorcery/Brutality do not. That was what I was thinking of mainly when I made my response. And even that could be wrong, now that you have me questioning myself...

    Thanks for weighing in and keeping me in check; I'd hate to be giving false info. I'll try to look up a more reliable source for this stuff, and post it here. Links to follow.
  • TheYKcid
    TheYKcid
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    Sets that add 400 WD/SD to a conditional damage type ARE affected by maj/min brutality/sorcery buffs, as well as other unique %-based modifiers.
    Edited by TheYKcid on August 15, 2018 12:45PM
    PC/NA — Daggerfall Covenant — BGs, Kaalgrontiid
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  • Thestephenmcraeub17_ESO
    TheYKcid wrote: »
    Sets that add 400 WD/SD to a conditional damage type ARE affected by maj/min brutality/sorcery buffs, as well as other unique %-based modifiers.

    @TheYKcid do you happen to have a source for that claim? We now have two different claims about what affects the set in this thread, and since I doubt any devs are gonna chime in here, I'd like to see as much evidence as possible.

    But anyway, time for some number crunching...

    So let's say my base spell damage is 2000. If I apply major sorcery, that goes up to 2400.
    If I'm wearing Julianos, my "base" spell damage is now 2299. If I apply major sorcery, that seems like it should go up to 2759, right? Right. Ok.
    So, what I would like to know for sure (can't test as I am at work right now) is if wearing Silks, your actual spell damage (ignoring the tooltip on character page, as the set doesn't change the number readout) goes to 2400 + 400 (silks) when major sorcery is applied, or if it goes to 2880 (which would be the number if the 400 spell damage from silks also receives a boost from major sorvery). The difference just by applying major sorcery (if it affects the damage output from a set like silks of the sun) is 80 spell damage. In total, that beats Julianos damage multiplier by 121 spell damage (in these hypothetical numbers).

    Now, even if sets like silks are NOT affected by buffs like major sorcery, then Juli w/Major sorcery gives you 2759, while silks ends up giving you the following: base spell damage at (hypothetical) 2000, major sorcery applied -> now is 2400, plus 400 in the background, unaffected by major sorcery is STILL 2800, which is obviously greater than 2759. In my head, it looks like silks wins for a magDK, who's outgoing damage is 100% fire damage.

    But if a set like silks doesn't affect light attacks and weapon enchants, but Juli does, then the clear winner is julianos. The problem is that I don't have enough information to prove that certain item sets affect certain aspects of the game, and again, I would test right now, but I am at work.

    If I have missed something important in my math, let me know, or if someone has definitely tested (on PTS or otherwise) a direct, perfectly accurate side-by-side comparisson of the two sets to see how they perform, then I would very much like to see those results to see if my hypothesis is correct. Thanks!
  • TheStealthDude
    TheStealthDude
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    TheYKcid wrote: »
    Sets that add 400 WD/SD to a conditional damage type ARE affected by maj/min brutality/sorcery buffs, as well as other unique %-based modifiers.

    Yep. While it was heavily rumored that these sets were not affected by the brutality/sorcery buffs, we had a definitive thread about a year ago around the Homestead or Morrowind updates that showed testing done proving that these set bonuses were in fact modified by the buffs and other modifiers
    Edited by TheStealthDude on August 15, 2018 1:25PM
  • GreenHere
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    Here's some relevant reading on the subject, I hope it helps:

    An old but good discussion on the subject
    A similar thread to this one, asking about Juli vs Silks
    And another similar thread asking about Silks for DK damage dealers
    Discussing the Max Health bonus that Silks has versus other specific damage type sets

    I don't think I've ever been in any of those threads; I wish I could find the ones that gave me the impression that 400 damage to x abilities sets were too specific to be useful, because I found them convincing enough to stop digging into it at that point. But this was back in like 2016, so maybe the game has changed on these sets anyway.

    If anyone has more links to share, they'd be appreciated! I'm now wondering about all sets like this. Thinking it might be time to hop on the PTS and give Automaton, Netch's, Silks, etc. a try again...
  • Thestephenmcraeub17_ESO
    TheYKcid wrote: »
    Sets that add 400 WD/SD to a conditional damage type ARE affected by maj/min brutality/sorcery buffs, as well as other unique %-based modifiers.

    Yep. While it was heavily reumored that these sets were not affected by the brutality/sorcery buffs, we had a definitive thread about a year ago around the Homestead or Morrowind updates that showed testing done proving that these set bonuses were in fact modified by the buffs and other modifiers

    So it seems like for a magDK DPS, silks is the clear winner between the two, right?
  • GreenHere
    GreenHere
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    TheYKcid wrote: »
    Sets that add 400 WD/SD to a conditional damage type ARE affected by maj/min brutality/sorcery buffs, as well as other unique %-based modifiers.

    @TheYKcid do you happen to have a source for that claim? We now have two different claims about what affects the set in this thread, and since I doubt any devs are gonna chime in here, I'd like to see as much evidence as possible.

    But anyway, time for some number crunching...

    So let's say my base spell damage is 2000. If I apply major sorcery, that goes up to 2400.
    If I'm wearing Julianos, my "base" spell damage is now 2299. If I apply major sorcery, that seems like it should go up to 2759, right? Right. Ok.
    So, what I would like to know for sure (can't test as I am at work right now) is if wearing Silks, your actual spell damage (ignoring the tooltip on character page, as the set doesn't change the number readout) goes to 2400 + 400 (silks) when major sorcery is applied, or if it goes to 2880 (which would be the number if the 400 spell damage from silks also receives a boost from major sorvery). The difference just by applying major sorcery (if it affects the damage output from a set like silks of the sun) is 80 spell damage. In total, that beats Julianos damage multiplier by 121 spell damage (in these hypothetical numbers).

    Now, even if sets like silks are NOT affected by buffs like major sorcery, then Juli w/Major sorcery gives you 2759, while silks ends up giving you the following: base spell damage at (hypothetical) 2000, major sorcery applied -> now is 2400, plus 400 in the background, unaffected by major sorcery is STILL 2800, which is obviously greater than 2759. In my head, it looks like silks wins for a magDK, who's outgoing damage is 100% fire damage.

    But if a set like silks doesn't affect light attacks and weapon enchants, but Juli does, then the clear winner is julianos. The problem is that I don't have enough information to prove that certain item sets affect certain aspects of the game, and again, I would test right now, but I am at work.

    If I have missed something important in my math, let me know, or if someone has definitely tested (on PTS or otherwise) a direct, perfectly accurate side-by-side comparisson of the two sets to see how they perform, then I would very much like to see those results to see if my hypothesis is correct. Thanks!

    Your math makes sense to me, but I'm not a number crunching guru. Just wanted to remind that different skills scale with Spell Damage and Max Magicka differently, so (again, not being a math wizard) I assume that throws a wrench into being able to figure which one is actually better in a real fight. I seem to recall Gilliamtherogue having a video on exactly this, now that I'm typing this... Let me see if I can find it...

    BAM! At 16 and a half minutes, he talks about (and tests!) Silks of the Sun directly. I'll let this guy give better info than I ever could parrot. He essentially concludes, as you do, that Silks is best for a magDK.
    Edited by GreenHere on August 15, 2018 1:18PM
  • TheStealthDude
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    Here is the thread from 2017 showing testing and results, confirmed by another very knowledgable player & tester on page 2:

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/343255/psa-for-sets-like-automaton-netch-war-maiden/p1
    Edited by TheStealthDude on August 15, 2018 1:16PM
  • TheStealthDude
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    TheYKcid wrote: »
    Sets that add 400 WD/SD to a conditional damage type ARE affected by maj/min brutality/sorcery buffs, as well as other unique %-based modifiers.

    Yep. While it was heavily reumored that these sets were not affected by the brutality/sorcery buffs, we had a definitive thread about a year ago around the Homestead or Morrowind updates that showed testing done proving that these set bonuses were in fact modified by the buffs and other modifiers

    So it seems like for a magDK DPS, silks is the clear winner between the two, right?

    As far as the 5th piece bonus goes, yes, since the standard DK DPS loadout is dual inferno staves and all fire abilities. The 2-4 piece bonuses are different and I haven't done enough testing personally to see if 2 spell crit bonuses makes up the ground lost by the Julianos 5th piece versus the single spell damage bonus from Silks.
  • Thestephenmcraeub17_ESO
    Here is the thread from 2017 showing testing and results, confirmed by another very knowledgable player & tester on page 2:

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/343255/psa-for-sets-like-automaton-netch-war-maiden/p1

    @TheStealthDude So keeping in mind that silks doesn't buff proc sets (I run Skoria, as mentioned above) or enchants (I have two infused BSW infernos with flame enchants), does Julianos boost proc sets and enchants? And if so, does that make enough of a difference in the numbers to definitively say that Julianos outperforms Silks?
  • TheStealthDude
    TheStealthDude
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    Here is the thread from 2017 showing testing and results, confirmed by another very knowledgable player & tester on page 2:

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/343255/psa-for-sets-like-automaton-netch-war-maiden/p1

    @TheStealthDude So keeping in mind that silks doesn't buff proc sets (I run Skoria, as mentioned above) or enchants (I have two infused BSW infernos with flame enchants), does Julianos boost proc sets and enchants? And if so, does that make enough of a difference in the numbers to definitively say that Julianos outperforms Silks?

    No, the Julianos spell damage does not buff those either.
  • Narvuntien
    Narvuntien
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    I tried both and had identicial dps...

    I might be skill capped on dps :/.

    Before this patch i was using Juli + skoria but i was using a nirn juli back bar and the enchantment change this patch means i want infused on the back bar while i have infused and sharp sun staffs (sharp front barred) and i changed to grothdar (because of the sun hp bonus)
  • Thestephenmcraeub17_ESO
    Here is the thread from 2017 showing testing and results, confirmed by another very knowledgable player & tester on page 2:

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/343255/psa-for-sets-like-automaton-netch-war-maiden/p1

    @TheStealthDude So keeping in mind that silks doesn't buff proc sets (I run Skoria, as mentioned above) or enchants (I have two infused BSW infernos with flame enchants), does Julianos boost proc sets and enchants? And if so, does that make enough of a difference in the numbers to definitively say that Julianos outperforms Silks?

    No, the Julianos spell damage does not buff those either.

    Well I'll be damned. It looks to me like in every possible way for a magDK DPS, silks is the better set. Glad I didn't decon my set from 2+ years ago, thanks for all the help with this everyone!

    EDIT: Theoretically, of course. I'll put it to the test when I get home tonight.
    Edited by Thestephenmcraeub17_ESO on August 15, 2018 1:28PM
  • Septimus_Magna
    Septimus_Magna
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    Personally I think Silks is a good choice for mDKs because you only deal flame dmg and the health bonus helps to reach decent HP with Witchmothers.

    However, if you run Silks I wouldnt suggest running Skoria because it has another health bonus. As mDK you’ll be in melee range so why not use Zaan?
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  • GreenHere
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    Here is the thread from 2017 showing testing and results, confirmed by another very knowledgable player & tester on page 2:

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/343255/psa-for-sets-like-automaton-netch-war-maiden/p1

    Thanks for the link! That's a good source. If @Masel92 posts info, I tend to consider that about as solid as it gets.

    Thanks for chiming in, everyone. I nearly spread false info, so I'm glad y'all showed up to set this straight. :)

    Not sure how my memory on this stuff got so borked... I'll go stand in the corner and think about what I've done.
  • John_Falstaff
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    @GreenHere , tosh, haven't done anything. :) Discussion is how solutions are born.

    Also, I'm seconding @Septimus_Magna , I've recently tried Zaan, and it's dynamite for single target. I'm only refraining from using it on my second character - a magblade - because of small range, but shouldn't be a hindrance for mDK. For close range, Grothdarr is also a viable alternative.
  • TheStealthDude
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    GreenHere wrote: »
    Here is the thread from 2017 showing testing and results, confirmed by another very knowledgable player & tester on page 2:

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/343255/psa-for-sets-like-automaton-netch-war-maiden/p1

    Thanks for the link! That's a good source. If @Masel92 posts info, I tend to consider that about as solid as it gets.

    Thanks for chiming in, everyone. I nearly spread false info, so I'm glad y'all showed up to set this straight. :)

    Not sure how my memory on this stuff got so borked... I'll go stand in the corner and think about what I've done.

    No worries, I would say that before that thread (and there was another much larger one at the time that linked there, but i cant find it), the majority of forum posters had the wrong idea about the +400 [Damage type] sets like Sun and War Maiden. That's probably why that thread was created in the first place.
  • Icy_Waffles
    Icy_Waffles
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    I am still building mine.

    I plan on zaan. Bsw. Elfbane. Vma backbar. Need bsw staff still.
  • craftycarper73
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    my Magdk for pve is setup like this

    5 x BSW 5 x SotS 2 X skoria it hits like a truck, flame staff bar front lightening staff back bar

    Sustain can be troublesome, but using trash pots helps out a lot.
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  • X3ina
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    Any set with minor slayer > silks period.
    Just go for moondancer it will solve most of your problems with sustain and damage output.
    SW GoH > ESO
  • weg0
    weg0
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    Two words... Elf Bane.
  • Thestephenmcraeub17_ESO
    weg0 wrote: »
    Two words... Elf Bane.

    I'm not really considering Elf bane because all of the flame DOTs already have sufficient uptime, without much management needed. Plus, the real DPS numbers (on my parses, anyway) come from light attacks and whip, which would be unaffected by the bonus of Elf Bane. I guess it would help a pretty good amount with Standard, but for the most part, I don't think it fits my needs.
  • Masel
    Masel
    Class Representative
    TheYKcid wrote: »
    Sets that add 400 WD/SD to a conditional damage type ARE affected by maj/min brutality/sorcery buffs, as well as other unique %-based modifiers.

    This is true. I did ingame testing a while back, and it verified that these buffs do affect sets that work like this.

    I calculated theoretical damage values that should occur with silks, without silks, with and without major sorcery, and then replicated them Ingame and it was 99.99% exact. Silks of the Sun is a valid contender, given that you can use clockwork food and still have enough health with it. If you use skoria you'll have that either way, but still...
    Edited by Masel on August 15, 2018 10:11PM
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  • boombazookajd
    boombazookajd
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    @xynode has a build combining Destruction Mastery and BSW with Grothdarr and a vMA fire staff back bar. He's hitting for something like 39k without the free whip proc and 41k with it.

    I use Juli with BSW right now but have also put together enough Suns gear to start testing for myself. Personally, I can hit for 22k with Juli+BSW/Grothdarr and I'm not yet that good at parsing, 490 CP-ish.
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  • Xvorg
    Xvorg
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    TheYKcid wrote: »
    Sets that add 400 WD/SD to a conditional damage type ARE affected by maj/min brutality/sorcery buffs, as well as other unique %-based modifiers.

    Yep. While it was heavily reumored that these sets were not affected by the brutality/sorcery buffs, we had a definitive thread about a year ago around the Homestead or Morrowind updates that showed testing done proving that these set bonuses were in fact modified by the buffs and other modifiers

    So it seems like for a magDK DPS, silks is the clear winner between the two, right?

    not so easy... sun does not affect your heals except the one from embers (which escalates with dmg done)
    Sarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly

    I was born with the wrong sign
    In the wrong house
    With the wrong ascendancy
    I took the wrong road
    That led to the wrong tendencies
    I was in the wrong place at the wrong time
    For the wrong reason and the wrong rhyme
    On the wrong day of the wrong week
    Used the wrong method with the wrong technique
  • Xvorg
    Xvorg
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    weg0 wrote: »
    Two words... Elf Bane.

    crap set in PvP... not very useful in PvE besides the longer duration on flame dots. If you can change the trait of the jewelry, maybe it can be an option
    Sarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly

    I was born with the wrong sign
    In the wrong house
    With the wrong ascendancy
    I took the wrong road
    That led to the wrong tendencies
    I was in the wrong place at the wrong time
    For the wrong reason and the wrong rhyme
    On the wrong day of the wrong week
    Used the wrong method with the wrong technique
  • Thestephenmcraeub17_ESO
    Xvorg wrote: »
    TheYKcid wrote: »
    Sets that add 400 WD/SD to a conditional damage type ARE affected by maj/min brutality/sorcery buffs, as well as other unique %-based modifiers.

    Yep. While it was heavily reumored that these sets were not affected by the brutality/sorcery buffs, we had a definitive thread about a year ago around the Homestead or Morrowind updates that showed testing done proving that these set bonuses were in fact modified by the buffs and other modifiers

    So it seems like for a magDK DPS, silks is the clear winner between the two, right?

    not so easy... sun does not affect your heals except the one from embers (which escalates with dmg done)

    But in most PvE content, a magDK DPS isn't going to be casting a lot of self heals. The healer will carry the bulk of that burden, and for content like vMA, Embers is the primary heal anyway, with the other defensives being Reflective Scale and Harness/Dampen (which scale off max magicka anyway, so Julianos would be no more helpful for those). Coagulating blood would benefit from Julianos, but I believe that is the only heal skill a DK would cast in PvE such as vMA, and I don't see it commonly used there.

    It's looking more and more like (to me anyway) Silks is the better set for magDK damage dealer. Julianos might be more versatile, especially if you cast a lot of self-heals, but the numbers all point to silks outperforming it in terms of raw damage.
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