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You gotta be kidding.
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CyrusArya✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭exeeter702 wrote: »
This is completely contrary to ZOS's current stance on class balance and shouldnt be used as a benchmark. Wardens and templars have every fundamental right to be aggressive in pvp with possession of some form of lethal compared to sorcs and nbs just as much as the later are equipped with options to play a support role. The argument that many make is under the ideology and expectation that sorcs shouldnt inherently be superior at dealing damage just because. Regardless of the current state of balance achieved, it is not a hard foundation that sorcs and nbs SHOULD be the strongest damage dealers in pvp by design, that is a complete falacy and that logic falls apart when you look at stam wardens and mag dks.
I don’t disagree that Templars and Wardens have a right to be aggressive, and yes I can see the game moving towards that direction and becoming more homogenized- for better or worse. Classes will lose identity, but individually become more well rounded and viable for all situations. Doesn’t change what the current state of the game is at this time, and what the entire foundation of balance design up to this point is.
What I was arguing with monkey man is that there is a reason sorcs are compared to nightblades and not wardens in the current state of the game. Sure, in the future we might get to a point that all classes are on even footing. But you have to consider the other side of the coin too. If wardens and templars should be as strong at dealing damage as sorc and nightblades, sorcs and nightblades should equally so be as strong at healing and group utility as templars and wardens. That is definitely not the case. But is that really the game we want? An equalized setting where everything does everything the same?
As an aside, this is regarding magicka characters. Stamina is a whole nother ball game.
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Grimhallow✭✭✭I can agree that sorcs need more tuning, and that this meta is going to be a little bland for them. But the rune cage meta was even more bland, and it was massively over-performing.
I think this meta is more fun to play as a magsorc, and also more fun to play against magsorc. Playing against rune cage wasn't fun, and using it wasn't really fun either. It made me miss frag stun a lot.
Is this patch better than clockwork city? no- magsorcs are in a worse place for no reason. But do I think this change is an improvement over last patch? Absolutely.
Sorc obviously needs a rework, but it did last patch too, and at least now we don't have to deal with rune cage while said re-work is coming.3 -
MalagenR✭✭✭✭✭I can agree that sorcs need more tuning, and that this meta is going to be a little bland for them. But the rune cage meta was even more bland, and it was massively over-performing.
I think this meta is more fun to play as a magsorc, and also more fun to play against magsorc. Playing against rune cage wasn't fun, and using it wasn't really fun either. It made me miss frag stun a lot.
Is this patch better than clockwork city? no- magsorcs are in a worse place for no reason. But do I think this change is an improvement over last patch? Absolutely.
Sorc obviously needs a rework, but it did last patch too, and at least now we don't have to deal with rune cage while said re-work is coming.
Do you die to sorc's as a Stam NB?Edited by MalagenR on August 14, 2018 8:45PM1 -
Grimhallow✭✭✭Do you die to sorc's as a Stam NB?
I do my best to never die to any one class. When I do die, I like it to be because I was trampled by a wave of 1,000 potatoes (though statistically I die most getting sniped while I'm fighting other people).
That being said, you're right: this patch I am likely to be killed by sorcs far less often.
But that should be obvious, because now I can't get 1-shot by players (both good and bad) who take advantage of a ranged, un-dodgable, un-blockable, high damage burst combo that can effortlessly line up 4 or more attacks into a single buggy breakfree timer (Endless Fury-where the execute tagged you even if dodged, Curse, Meteor, Frag, Rune Cage Damage+ light attack weaves).
Do I benefit from this? Heck yeah- who doesn't? It was terribly broken.
But like I said, I want sorc to be good- but even more importantly I want it to be fun. I want all classes to be good, but sorc in particular is a class I used to love playing. Rune cage ruined that for me. No more cheeky frag stuns. No more mindgames. Just boring, mindless rune cage.
This is just a personal opinion; but it's an honest one.
To me HotR was the last golden age of the sorc. Hopefully sorc can return to that golden age, which is likely the most balanced the class has been since launch.
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leepalmer95✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Step 1: call everyone a noob
Step 2: explain why they can't kill any competent player on their magsorc because *gasp* each class has a defensive mechanism to deal with incoming damage.
This has to be some sort of performance art.
Want to know what's the defensive Mechanism of DK. Just, don't say Block...
Wings.PS4 EU DC
Current CP : 756+
I have every character level 50, both a magicka and stamina version.
RIP my effort to get 5x v16 characters...2 -
Strider__Roshin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Please explain how rune cage has been nerfed to the ground? It no longer deals damage if you cc break, which should have never been added to begin with. Still has the same long range, still can cc people for a generous 3.5 seconds, instant cast. The only real change that's been made is that it no longer stuns people who are dodge rolling which is a well-needed change. It's BS that sorcs have gotten away with undodgable hit you all at once burst for so long, finally some counterplay, like previously you weren't able to block, you weren't able to dodge, the only counterplay was using a hot or burst heal which doesn't matter since sorc can execute preemptively and hit you with 4 abilities all at once.
Umm did you forget about Shuffle? RC can be passively dodged now. This nerfs it to the ground.
Wait my Spectral Bow can also be dodged passively... I guess that means it's nerfed to the ground too!
ZOS needs to buff all of my dodgeable abilities to compensate! No one should be able to avoid my damage!3 -
Waffennacht✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭.Please explain how rune cage has been nerfed to the ground? It no longer deals damage if you cc break, which should have never been added to begin with. Still has the same long range, still can cc people for a generous 3.5 seconds, instant cast. The only real change that's been made is that it no longer stuns people who are dodge rolling which is a well-needed change. It's BS that sorcs have gotten away with undodgable hit you all at once burst for so long, finally some counterplay, like previously you weren't able to block, you weren't able to dodge, the only counterplay was using a hot or burst heal which doesn't matter since sorc can execute preemptively and hit you with 4 abilities all at once.
Umm did you forget about Shuffle? RC can be passively dodged now. This nerfs it to the ground.
Wait my Spectral Bow can also be dodged passively... I guess that means it's nerfed to the ground too!
ZOS needs to buff all of my dodgeable abilities to compensate! No one should be able to avoid my damage!
Lol, what's unavoidable now at range tho?
Curse... And Light...
.....
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antihero727✭✭✭✭✭It all started with the frags nerf.
The Cage buff was meant to compensate this, but ZOS went overboard. Now they've swung the opposite way and nerfed Cage to be even worse than its CWC/DBones version, which was already bad.
And now Sorcs are left with no good options again.
We could always slot Master's destro again, but then we'd lose an entire slot bonus compared to every other build.
It wasn’t OP because of the buff it was bugged and difficult to break free.Veldrn-AD Magica Sorc
Bizarro Veldrn-AD Stam Sorc
Antiherro-AD Stam DK
Antihero-AD Magplar
Aww Crit-AD Magblade
AD Since PC beta
On A lag free vacation
for the near and far future0 -
Strider__Roshin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Waffennacht wrote: ».Please explain how rune cage has been nerfed to the ground? It no longer deals damage if you cc break, which should have never been added to begin with. Still has the same long range, still can cc people for a generous 3.5 seconds, instant cast. The only real change that's been made is that it no longer stuns people who are dodge rolling which is a well-needed change. It's BS that sorcs have gotten away with undodgable hit you all at once burst for so long, finally some counterplay, like previously you weren't able to block, you weren't able to dodge, the only counterplay was using a hot or burst heal which doesn't matter since sorc can execute preemptively and hit you with 4 abilities all at once.
Umm did you forget about Shuffle? RC can be passively dodged now. This nerfs it to the ground.
Wait my Spectral Bow can also be dodged passively... I guess that means it's nerfed to the ground too!
ZOS needs to buff all of my dodgeable abilities to compensate! No one should be able to avoid my damage!
Lol, what's unavoidable now at range tho?
Curse... And Light...
.....
You failed to mention 23k fall damage after getting hit by meteor on flat land
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Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Mojomonkeyman wrote: »The entire first year of ESO PvP was dominated by "tanky" setups (to go along with Aryas lingo) doing damage (magdk's, saptanks) while the "DD" prototype (sorc) was either supporting negatebot with some single burst potential or batsorc with lots of AE potential. You would see solo MagPlars doing very well, solo MagDKs (both "standyourground") doing really well - both being able to actually have similar or better results out there like the mobile classes.
That is gone, mobility reigns supreme in PvP for more than 2 years now, progressively. That's the main reason why NB and Sorc are considered top tier in PvP.
I think that´s the problem though - DK would outperform prettymuch everything and stand your ground NB or templar would also outperform mobility oriented sorc. Sorc was apart from superlowcost bats not really a great pvp class for the first 8 months (compared to what a similar skilled DK or NB1.4 onwards or templar 1.4 onwards could do) and as setups got tankier and things like sharpened and nirn penetration got fixed got progressively worse up until 1.6.
Now we have a situation where sorc is niche desireable in grps due to negate but good as a solo dd. But when looking at groups sorc is definetly not the first choice.
I don´t think @Arya was meaning to turn this into a tank vs dd discussion but rather into a solo vs grp class/spec argument.
Which is where magica templar, warden and DK exceed the abilities of of magsorc.Edited by Derra on August 15, 2018 11:39AM<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 500 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Ariades_swe wrote: »I think all classes should be able to either spec for solo or group play.
That said a pure dd, pure tank or pure healer should never have the same solo play ability as a more well rounded spec.
This is not the case now.
We have a class that excels at both damage, active mitigation and mobility. I'm not talking about sorcs btw.
If you are pure damage you should have to work in group just like a pure healer has.
That's pretty much the case now. If I am alone and want to do something aside from die or run out of resources when facing multiple opponents, I have to devote a decent chunk of my build to resource management, defense, mobility, healing etc. It's not a pure DPS spec.
In a group of say 12, I can go pure DPS and rely on my group-mates to handle most of the other stuff.Make Rush of Agony "Monsters only." People should not be consecutively crowd controlled in a PvP setting. Period.1 -
MalagenR✭✭✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »Ariades_swe wrote: »I think all classes should be able to either spec for solo or group play.
That said a pure dd, pure tank or pure healer should never have the same solo play ability as a more well rounded spec.
This is not the case now.
We have a class that excels at both damage, active mitigation and mobility. I'm not talking about sorcs btw.
If you are pure damage you should have to work in group just like a pure healer has.
That's pretty much the case now. If I am alone and want to do something aside from die or run out of resources when facing multiple opponents, I have to devote a decent chunk of my build to resource management, defense, mobility, healing etc. It's not a pure DPS spec.
In a group of say 12, I can go pure DPS and rely on my group-mates to handle most of the other stuff.
That's just simply not true. Most NB's don't really lose out on damage while having an insane amount of survivability due to being able to invis and escape at will.1 -
MirkoZ✭✭✭✭Sorcerer has no useful stuns now: crystal fragments has no stun , crystal blast has the stun but it is not so useful in pvp since it has got one 1sec of cast time. then rune cage now is completely useless( 20% less dmg, dodgeable also from shuffle or other skills that provides evasion and rune cage now only deals damage if the stun lasts for its full duration.
) so we are forced to slot desctructive reach but of course that is a destro skill not a sorc skill. Sorcs have no more useful stun to use in pvp currently.0 -
Grimhallow✭✭✭That's just simply not true. Most NB's don't really lose out on damage while having an insane amount of survivability due to being able to invis and escape at will.
You're not entirely wrong, there are good ways of maximizing your defense while losing the least amount of damage possible (cough cough 2 heavy + Shadow Barrier). However, I do think you may be forgetting one thing:
Escaping at will isn't free. You have to give up damage to build into mag recovery. Nightblades that spec all damage can only cloak once or twice, and then are out of magicka that they would use on fear or shade. In fact, most nightblades have to spec into recovery in order to survive- because unlike stamwarden and stam DK, nightblades only recovery comes from straight recovery enhancements like glyphs, sets, and mundus. No Netch, No Battleroar, No Helping Hands. Even Siphoning requires you to attack in order to recover, so that's no good for cloakspam.
Ironically, cloak is most effective against exclusively single target opponents (i.e. other nightblades). Anyone with a solid AoE ability can pull a nightblade out of cloak. If they are able to cloak again and again, then sure they can get away- but you'll know that they lost damage potential to be able to do it, which is why they are running away from you.
(I mean either that or you outnumber them several to one).
EDIT:
I would also like to point out that this conversation stems from the following premise that you made:"I think all classes should be able to either spec for solo or group play."
However, nightblades, possibly more than any other class have to build for group play because single target pressure does not transition well into groups. Likewise cloak and shade simply don't perform as well in a group setting. Heavy armor DW Dawnbreaker/Steel Tornado is going to be better on every other stam class. Nightblades excel in small group and solo play, where their defensive mechanics are not watered down by a group, and where their single target pressure is given space to shine.
Edited by Grimhallow on August 15, 2018 6:48PM0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭You don’t bother to provide feedback about this during the pts feedback period yet come and complain about it after it goes live.
Ok. I guess that crown crate post you made during the 5 weeks of this change was on a be pts was more important.0 -
RedRook✭✭✭✭Sorcerer has no useful stuns now: crystal fragments has no stun , crystal blast has the stun but it is not so useful in pvp since it has got one 1sec of cast time. then rune cage now is completely useless( 20% less dmg, dodgeable also from shuffle or other skills that provides evasion and rune cage now only deals damage if the stun lasts for its full duration.
) so we are forced to slot desctructive reach but of course that is a destro skill not a sorc skill. Sorcs have no more useful stun to use in pvp currently.
Magicka warden says hi.1 -
MalagenR✭✭✭✭✭That's just simply not true. Most NB's don't really lose out on damage while having an insane amount of survivability due to being able to invis and escape at will.
You're not entirely wrong, there are good ways of maximizing your defense while losing the least amount of damage possible (cough cough 2 heavy + Shadow Barrier). However, I do think you may be forgetting one thing:
Escaping at will isn't free. You have to give up damage to build into mag recovery. Nightblades that spec all damage can only cloak once or twice, and then are out of magicka that they would use on fear or shade. In fact, most nightblades have to spec into recovery in order to survive- because unlike stamwarden and stam DK, nightblades only recovery comes from straight recovery enhancements like glyphs, sets, and mundus. No Netch, No Battleroar, No Helping Hands. Even Siphoning requires you to attack in order to recover, so that's no good for cloakspam.
Ironically, cloak is most effective against exclusively single target opponents (i.e. other nightblades). Anyone with a solid AoE ability can pull a nightblade out of cloak. If they are able to cloak again and again, then sure they can get away- but you'll know that they lost damage potential to be able to do it, which is why they are running away from you.
(I mean either that or you outnumber them several to one).
EDIT:
I would also like to point out that this conversation stems from the following premise that you made:"I think all classes should be able to either spec for solo or group play."
However, nightblades, possibly more than any other class have to build for group play because single target pressure does not transition well into groups. Likewise cloak and shade simply don't perform as well in a group setting. Heavy armor DW Dawnbreaker/Steel Tornado is going to be better on every other stam class. Nightblades excel in small group and solo play, where their defensive mechanics are not watered down by a group, and where their single target pressure is given space to shine.
But Sorc's have to do the exact same thing - we have to spec into cost reduction / stamina regen to have enough active defense to survive because our escape has increasing mana costs while gap closers do not have increasing stamina costs - we can't pressure + shield - so we really have two choices
Shield Spam during enemy player offensive rotations - not viable - 1st you can't have enough magicka regen, 2nd - most DPS have higher pressure damage than Sorc (which is burst only) and don't even have to sacrifice damage to have really high stamina regen, thus if a stam class is unleashing hell on me, they can keep going with unlimited pressure because I'm not able to dps while shield spamming putting them on the defensive and forcing them to burn more stamina than their offense allows, essentially I'm dead because I have absolutely no reliable CC / escape to get away from a stamina class that has a gap closer, they can put unlimited pressure and I die.
Spec heavy into stamina regeneration so that we can roll dodge during stamina offensive combinations giving us time after we shield to put some pressure - BUT - this comes at the sacrifice of our shield strength and DPS strength - unless our burst combo is executed perfectly when we do get our one opening we are dead.
I'm seriously considering a frost staff block casting mag sorc build because we honestly don't have that much survivability open field. As soon as shield is down we are dead.
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ZOS_JesCadminGreetings, we've had to remove several baiting comments. Due to the threads derailment, we have decided to close it. Thank you.The Elder Scrolls Online: Tamriel Unlimited - ZeniMax Online Studios
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https://youtu.be/b3XlFKmZXcE?t=2m42sThis discussion has been closed.