Stealth detection/prevention abilities: time to update them

Wreuntzylla · August 2018

I am completely confused. Starting at the intro of the warden class, ZoS systematically added to the list of dots that break stealth on every tic. I haven't used stealth very much since the empower nerf, did they change it so those dots no longer break cloak?

If not, the complaints are baseless. If so, carry on.

Hunharibo · August 2018

I believe that a nerf is needed for cloak. It is not the stealth aspect of it that is so broken, but the fact that it suppresses all dots. As someone eloquently put it in this thread before, it is 100% mitigation when it works.
I propose to suppress all healing as well while in stealth just the same as dots - its only fair. Cloak should be a getaway/repositioning tool, not a quick in-combat 2 second invulnerability window where you can heal up without dots being able to negate your vigor+rally.

Or make dots continue to tick while in stealth but not reveal the user. But thats worse i think since you could die while in stealth then. At least with my proposed change you could make sure to get away if cloak was indeed successful.

biminirwb17_ESO · August 2018

I love sneaking up on unsuspecting folk and 1 shotting them from stealth with a 20k surprise attack. No cloak required.

Feanor · August 2018

Sharee wrote: »

ProbablePaul wrote: »

I have a hard time appreciating this argument, considering that there's an ability, that when merely slotted, it essentially nullifies the racial bonuses of my main char, as well as gimps the bonuses that are foundational to nightblade. It kinda screws with cloak in a roundabout way too, and can reveal people when cast. One, slotted ability can mitigate an entire playstyle.

So, when people are still complaining about cloak and stealth, after the implementation of something like magelight, it just screams "I don't like dealing with this mechanic".

As a matter of fact, if someone can illustrate how cloak/stealth is imbalanced to the point of making other classes lose, and not the complaints against it are more than just a bias against the stealther archetypes/playstyles, I would greatly appreciate it. Until then, all of you 'knights' and 'templars' need to find another way to defeat the 'bad guys.'

Magelight has a reveal radius of 6 meters. With the speed characters are moving at nowadays, that's pretty much useless. Just for comparison, flame lash range is 7 meters.

What this means is, a NB cloaks in front of your nose, and before your GCD from using the previous ability clears(so you can cast magelight), the NB is already out of the detection radius (three times over, likely). I use volatile armor to reveal NB's who cloaked in front of me, which has almost twice the radius, and they still are out of range more often than not.

Actually, Radiant Magelight (the PvP morph) has a reveal radius of 12m. What you say is still true though, because the "useless" Improved Sneak medium armour passive reduces this to 9m with 5 pieces, and futher to 6m if you're Khajiit. That's close to or even less than the nerfed heavy attack range for melee weapons (now 7m), just to give it a perspective. All that for a base cost of 3241 magicka.

Juhasow · August 2018

Feanor wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

ProbablePaul wrote: »

I have a hard time appreciating this argument, considering that there's an ability, that when merely slotted, it essentially nullifies the racial bonuses of my main char, as well as gimps the bonuses that are foundational to nightblade. It kinda screws with cloak in a roundabout way too, and can reveal people when cast. One, slotted ability can mitigate an entire playstyle.

So, when people are still complaining about cloak and stealth, after the implementation of something like magelight, it just screams "I don't like dealing with this mechanic".

As a matter of fact, if someone can illustrate how cloak/stealth is imbalanced to the point of making other classes lose, and not the complaints against it are more than just a bias against the stealther archetypes/playstyles, I would greatly appreciate it. Until then, all of you 'knights' and 'templars' need to find another way to defeat the 'bad guys.'

Magelight has a reveal radius of 6 meters. With the speed characters are moving at nowadays, that's pretty much useless. Just for comparison, flame lash range is 7 meters.

What this means is, a NB cloaks in front of your nose, and before your GCD from using the previous ability clears(so you can cast magelight), the NB is already out of the detection radius (three times over, likely). I use volatile armor to reveal NB's who cloaked in front of me, which has almost twice the radius, and they still are out of range more often than not.

Actually, Radiant Magelight (the PvP morph) has a reveal radius of 12m. What you say is still true though, because the "useless" Improved Sneak medium armour passive reduces this to 9m with 5 pieces, and futher to 6m if you're Khajiit. That's close to or even less than the nerfed heavy attack range for melee weapons (now 7m), just to give it a perspective. All that for a base cost of 3241 magicka.

Khajiit and Bosmer where other bosmer passives making it even stronger then khajiit.

Lylith · August 2018

Feanor wrote: »

ZOS just added an indicator that shows that a player can see you although you are hidden. So do you think your suggestion is one that’s reasonably expected to be put into the game?

which never should've been added.

worked fine the way it was, the hunters need to feel as though they can be hunted. this sets them up to take down the searcher with near impunity.

just marvelous.

the change was completely unnecessary, much like many we've been blessed with over these last many years. 0/10.

Didgerion · August 2018

Hunharibo wrote: »

I believe that a nerf is needed for cloak. It is not the stealth aspect of it that is so broken, but the fact that it suppresses all dots. As someone eloquently put it in this thread before, it is 100% mitigation when it works.
I propose to suppress all healing as well while in stealth just the same as dots - its only fair. Cloak should be a getaway/repositioning tool, not a quick in-combat 2 second invulnerability window where you can heal up without dots being able to negate your vigor+rally.

Or make dots continue to tick while in stealth but not reveal the user. But thats worse i think since you could die while in stealth then. At least with my proposed change you could make sure to get away if cloak was indeed successful.

You forgot to mention that it also disconnects all the direct hits launched toward a cloaking NB.
All I see on my scroll text is dodged and missed...then 3 seconds of silence...then an incoming crazy burst combo which also inflicts powerful debuffs...then if you are not dead - repeat.

Mage-light is a useless counter, even if you successfully reveal the NB using it - it's too late already, you've got disconnected attacks that did 0 damage but it costed you magica, then you cast mage-light which again costs
you magica...you get lots of resources wasted for one NB's skill.

BattleAxe · August 2018

Super easy change to fight the stealth of night blade cloak make it a toggle BUT while active all recovery is disabled and instantly untoggled when detected

Didgerion · August 2018

Mayrael wrote: »

Again biased thread. Did you ever seen how fast magblade dies when marked? Usually it takes 5-15 seconds depending on skill of a player but it is guaranteed kill. Why? Because outside of one (not even class) shield it's the only! way magblade can mitigate damage. So you want to completely disable main defense of the class just because you refuse to learn to play? Det pots are extremely efficient when it goes to killing NBs, you just need to know when to use them...

I've been where you are now few years ago, frustrated that NBs can escape from the fight so easy. Now when I know how to kill them they are easiest prey for me and the only thing I use to secure my kills are det potions, not even a single one skill designed to detect them is needed. Based on that from the perspective of experienced player I can tell it's literally L2P issue. You won't be happy till you will be able to use one button to completely disable NBs ability to defend while I can bet none of you have any NB character with PvP rank higher than 15 because then you would know how to counter cloak.

Can we have skills and potions that completely disable roll dodge, block shield and heals for XXs because I don't know how to kill someone? Santa please?

Oh... But what I am trying to achieve here? This thread will drag only frustrated vultures that just feel scent of possible nerf to other class which is always ok as long it doesn't touch my own tralala. Flies away

As mentioned already a NB with mark target is a good counter to cloak...do you suggest we all roll a NB to counter cloak efficiently?

Also it was mentioned that the skills specifically designed to counter cloak are not efficient, you cripple your bar keeping revealing skills on it, and on top of that they don't even do the job.

Also to the rest of your remarks:

roll-dodge was overperfoming, that's why there is a cool down on it (in form of cost increase). It still over-performs as players find ways to sustain it, like coupling it with cloak for example
block sustain was nerfed as well, also skills that break it were introduced, and the sets that facilitated perma-block were adjusted, there are still non-killable perma-blockers out there, but they cannot kill you either - its a proper fix to me.
shields were purely adjusted, Sets and enchants were added that does oblivion damage and goes direct under the shields. It is still a bad fix as you have to re-spec just to counter shields - and once you respec you counter them too easily. That's definitely a wrong way of fixing it.
big heals - it is funny you mentioned it providing your(NB) ultimate debuffs it nicely just when needed. Anyway big heals will be a big problem in the current DLC, as the heal debuff duration is getting reduced across the board....a big problem for all but not for NBs as it will make the cloak even stronger as you will come out of cloak heal-debuff-free and NB's ultimate will apply this healing debuff just when needed for their short burst combo.

And now there is a mark on players who uses detect mechanics. Now NBs will have easy times to target players...or not engage at all.

GG I guess, NBs are properly balanced!

GoodFella146 · August 2018

Nightblades are still the best class in both pve and pvp but OMG NERF A STUN BC SORC NERF NERFF NERFFFF

Ragnarock41 · August 2018

Evil/camo hunter is used more as an argument in forums to prevent cloak nerfs, than as an actual cloak counter. Its kinda funny that in my last 2 years of PvP, I've witnessed this skill getting used to counter stamblades less than 5 times (in none of those attempts it properly did its job) and I'm actually counting.

RedRook · August 2018

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Evil/camo hunter is used more as an argument in forums to prevent cloak nerfs, than as an actual cloak counter. Its kinda funny that in my last 2 years of PvP, I've witnessed this skill getting used to counter stamblades less than 5 times (in none of those attempts it properly did its job) and I'm actually counting.

Other than DBOS - and maybe silver leash? - FG skills are pretty trash. They seem to be fine leaving them way, it's been years since they were a threat to anybody in PVP.

Edit: Forgot trap. I guess trap doesn't suck in PVE, so there's that.

Ragnarock41 · August 2018

RedRook wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Evil/camo hunter is used more as an argument in forums to prevent cloak nerfs, than as an actual cloak counter. Its kinda funny that in my last 2 years of PvP, I've witnessed this skill getting used to counter stamblades less than 5 times (in none of those attempts it properly did its job) and I'm actually counting.

Other than DBOS - and maybe silver leash? - FG skills are pretty trash. They seem to be fine leaving them way, it's been years since they were a threat to anybody in PVP.

Edit: Forgot trap. I guess trap doesn't suck in PVE, so there's that.

When it comes to stamina builds , non stamblades are told that they are supposed to rely on these abilities, so Its in my best interest to ask for buffs to weapon/guild skills. DBOS is equally as good as leap, and other than that FG abilities are pretty meh, which I would like to change, I also don't understand why the best stealth counter ability in the game is also a nightblade exclusive. I think mark overperforms in doing its job, but having soooo many abilities just for the purpose of countering a single ability goes to show how strong cloak is.

So , either cloak will get streak treatment, or we will get proper counterplay tools, otherwise the nerf nb posts will probably go on forever.

thankyourat · August 2018

Feanor wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

ProbablePaul wrote: »

I have a hard time appreciating this argument, considering that there's an ability, that when merely slotted, it essentially nullifies the racial bonuses of my main char, as well as gimps the bonuses that are foundational to nightblade. It kinda screws with cloak in a roundabout way too, and can reveal people when cast. One, slotted ability can mitigate an entire playstyle.

So, when people are still complaining about cloak and stealth, after the implementation of something like magelight, it just screams "I don't like dealing with this mechanic".

As a matter of fact, if someone can illustrate how cloak/stealth is imbalanced to the point of making other classes lose, and not the complaints against it are more than just a bias against the stealther archetypes/playstyles, I would greatly appreciate it. Until then, all of you 'knights' and 'templars' need to find another way to defeat the 'bad guys.'

Magelight has a reveal radius of 6 meters. With the speed characters are moving at nowadays, that's pretty much useless. Just for comparison, flame lash range is 7 meters.

What this means is, a NB cloaks in front of your nose, and before your GCD from using the previous ability clears(so you can cast magelight), the NB is already out of the detection radius (three times over, likely). I use volatile armor to reveal NB's who cloaked in front of me, which has almost twice the radius, and they still are out of range more often than not.

Actually, Radiant Magelight (the PvP morph) has a reveal radius of 12m. What you say is still true though, because the "useless" Improved Sneak medium armour passive reduces this to 9m with 5 pieces, and futher to 6m if you're Khajiit. That's close to or even less than the nerfed heavy attack range for melee weapons (now 7m), just to give it a perspective. All that for a base cost of 3241 magicka.

I don't believe medium armor and racial passives reduce the reveal radius of radiant magelight. It's just a flat out 12m reveal regardless of passives. It's actually a really good ability to counter Cloak because you also take 50% less damage from stealth attacks. It also lady for 5 seconds meaning at anytime during that 5 seconds if a nightblade enters the 12 meter radius they will be pulled from stealth. I use to use this ability slot when gankers were a thing. The problem with this ability is inner light is better in every situation except fighting nightblades because of the increase to max Magicka. So the argument becomes should you have to slightly weakened you build against other classes to make it stronger against nightblades. Radiant magelight is one of the actual viable counters to cloak, with detect pots and mark Target

RedRook · August 2018

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

RedRook wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Evil/camo hunter is used more as an argument in forums to prevent cloak nerfs, than as an actual cloak counter. Its kinda funny that in my last 2 years of PvP, I've witnessed this skill getting used to counter stamblades less than 5 times (in none of those attempts it properly did its job) and I'm actually counting.

Other than DBOS - and maybe silver leash? - FG skills are pretty trash. They seem to be fine leaving them way, it's been years since they were a threat to anybody in PVP.

Edit: Forgot trap. I guess trap doesn't suck in PVE, so there's that.

When it comes to stamina builds , non stamblades are told that they are supposed to rely on these abilities, so Its in my best interest to ask for buffs to weapon/guild skills. DBOS is equally as good as leap, and other than that FG abilities are pretty meh, which I would like to change, I also don't understand why the best stealth counter ability in the game is also a nightblade exclusive. I think mark overperforms in doing its job, but having soooo many abilities just for the purpose of countering a single ability goes to show how strong cloak is.

So , either cloak will get streak treatment, or we will get proper counterplay tools, otherwise the nerf nb posts will probably go on forever.

They'll go on forever regardless, or at least until people who never play and don't care about the class succeed in getting it wrecked. See: templar.

Feanor · August 2018

thankyourat wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

ProbablePaul wrote: »

I have a hard time appreciating this argument, considering that there's an ability, that when merely slotted, it essentially nullifies the racial bonuses of my main char, as well as gimps the bonuses that are foundational to nightblade. It kinda screws with cloak in a roundabout way too, and can reveal people when cast. One, slotted ability can mitigate an entire playstyle.

So, when people are still complaining about cloak and stealth, after the implementation of something like magelight, it just screams "I don't like dealing with this mechanic".

As a matter of fact, if someone can illustrate how cloak/stealth is imbalanced to the point of making other classes lose, and not the complaints against it are more than just a bias against the stealther archetypes/playstyles, I would greatly appreciate it. Until then, all of you 'knights' and 'templars' need to find another way to defeat the 'bad guys.'

Magelight has a reveal radius of 6 meters. With the speed characters are moving at nowadays, that's pretty much useless. Just for comparison, flame lash range is 7 meters.

What this means is, a NB cloaks in front of your nose, and before your GCD from using the previous ability clears(so you can cast magelight), the NB is already out of the detection radius (three times over, likely). I use volatile armor to reveal NB's who cloaked in front of me, which has almost twice the radius, and they still are out of range more often than not.

Actually, Radiant Magelight (the PvP morph) has a reveal radius of 12m. What you say is still true though, because the "useless" Improved Sneak medium armour passive reduces this to 9m with 5 pieces, and futher to 6m if you're Khajiit. That's close to or even less than the nerfed heavy attack range for melee weapons (now 7m), just to give it a perspective. All that for a base cost of 3241 magicka.

I don't believe medium armor and racial passives reduce the reveal radius of radiant magelight. It's just a flat out 12m reveal regardless of passives. It's actually a really good ability to counter Cloak because you also take 50% less damage from stealth attacks. It also lady for 5 seconds meaning at anytime during that 5 seconds if a nightblade enters the 12 meter radius they will be pulled from stealth. I use to use this ability slot when gankers were a thing. The problem with this ability is inner light is better in every situation except fighting nightblades because of the increase to max Magicka. So the argument becomes should you have to slightly weakened you build against other classes to make it stronger against nightblades. Radiant magelight is one of the actual viable counters to cloak, with detect pots and mark Target

It’s been a while since you used RML it seems.

Cost: [3511 / 3421 / 3331 / 3241] Magicka, Radius: 12 meters.
Summon a mote of magelight, revealing stealthed and invisible enemies around you for 5 seconds. Exposed enemies cannot return to stealth or invisibility for 3 seconds. While slotted you gain Major Prophecy, increasing your Spell Critical rating by 2191. You also prevent the stun from stealth attacks for you and nearby allies.

No, it’s not “really good”.

Katahdin · August 2018

Feanor wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

ProbablePaul wrote: »

I have a hard time appreciating this argument, considering that there's an ability, that when merely slotted, it essentially nullifies the racial bonuses of my main char, as well as gimps the bonuses that are foundational to nightblade. It kinda screws with cloak in a roundabout way too, and can reveal people when cast. One, slotted ability can mitigate an entire playstyle.

So, when people are still complaining about cloak and stealth, after the implementation of something like magelight, it just screams "I don't like dealing with this mechanic".

As a matter of fact, if someone can illustrate how cloak/stealth is imbalanced to the point of making other classes lose, and not the complaints against it are more than just a bias against the stealther archetypes/playstyles, I would greatly appreciate it. Until then, all of you 'knights' and 'templars' need to find another way to defeat the 'bad guys.'

Magelight has a reveal radius of 6 meters. With the speed characters are moving at nowadays, that's pretty much useless. Just for comparison, flame lash range is 7 meters.

What this means is, a NB cloaks in front of your nose, and before your GCD from using the previous ability clears(so you can cast magelight), the NB is already out of the detection radius (three times over, likely). I use volatile armor to reveal NB's who cloaked in front of me, which has almost twice the radius, and they still are out of range more often than not.

Actually, Radiant Magelight (the PvP morph) has a reveal radius of 12m. What you say is still true though, because the "useless" Improved Sneak medium armour passive reduces this to 9m with 5 pieces, and futher to 6m if you're Khajiit. That's close to or even less than the nerfed heavy attack range for melee weapons (now 7m), just to give it a perspective. All that for a base cost of 3241 magicka.

I don't believe medium armor and racial passives reduce the reveal radius of radiant magelight. It's just a flat out 12m reveal regardless of passives. It's actually a really good ability to counter Cloak because you also take 50% less damage from stealth attacks. It also lady for 5 seconds meaning at anytime during that 5 seconds if a nightblade enters the 12 meter radius they will be pulled from stealth. I use to use this ability slot when gankers were a thing. The problem with this ability is inner light is better in every situation except fighting nightblades because of the increase to max Magicka. So the argument becomes should you have to slightly weakened you build against other classes to make it stronger against nightblades. Radiant magelight is one of the actual viable counters to cloak, with detect pots and mark Target

It’s been a while since you used RML it seems.

Cost: [3511 / 3421 / 3331 / 3241] Magicka, Radius: 12 meters.
Summon a mote of magelight, revealing stealthed and invisible enemies around you for 5 seconds. Exposed enemies cannot return to stealth or invisibility for 3 seconds. While slotted you gain Major Prophecy, increasing your Spell Critical rating by 2191. You also prevent the stun from stealth attacks for you and nearby allies.

No, it’s not “really good”.

Right, it's more than really good, it's excellent.
Cloak has more counters than ant other skill in the game but it's still not good enough for the NB haters.

It's very easy to pull a NB out of cloak. If a NB gets away, he's either a really good NB or you're really bad at finding them or both. Once a NB is revealed, he's dead, period. A NB can't stack shields, cant armor up, cant streak away 6 times.

But that is anti cloak/ anti stealth establishment wants, to absolutely gut NBs into oblivion.

Cloak lasts 2.5 seconds. You want to put a 4 sec cooldown. How about we also put an 8 second cooldown on shields, 2 sec cooldown on streak, a cooldown that's 1.5 seconds longer than the up time on any armor skill. A 6 second cooldown on any self heal.

Feanor · August 2018

Katahdin wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

ProbablePaul wrote: »

I have a hard time appreciating this argument, considering that there's an ability, that when merely slotted, it essentially nullifies the racial bonuses of my main char, as well as gimps the bonuses that are foundational to nightblade. It kinda screws with cloak in a roundabout way too, and can reveal people when cast. One, slotted ability can mitigate an entire playstyle.

So, when people are still complaining about cloak and stealth, after the implementation of something like magelight, it just screams "I don't like dealing with this mechanic".

As a matter of fact, if someone can illustrate how cloak/stealth is imbalanced to the point of making other classes lose, and not the complaints against it are more than just a bias against the stealther archetypes/playstyles, I would greatly appreciate it. Until then, all of you 'knights' and 'templars' need to find another way to defeat the 'bad guys.'

Magelight has a reveal radius of 6 meters. With the speed characters are moving at nowadays, that's pretty much useless. Just for comparison, flame lash range is 7 meters.

What this means is, a NB cloaks in front of your nose, and before your GCD from using the previous ability clears(so you can cast magelight), the NB is already out of the detection radius (three times over, likely). I use volatile armor to reveal NB's who cloaked in front of me, which has almost twice the radius, and they still are out of range more often than not.

Actually, Radiant Magelight (the PvP morph) has a reveal radius of 12m. What you say is still true though, because the "useless" Improved Sneak medium armour passive reduces this to 9m with 5 pieces, and futher to 6m if you're Khajiit. That's close to or even less than the nerfed heavy attack range for melee weapons (now 7m), just to give it a perspective. All that for a base cost of 3241 magicka.

I don't believe medium armor and racial passives reduce the reveal radius of radiant magelight. It's just a flat out 12m reveal regardless of passives. It's actually a really good ability to counter Cloak because you also take 50% less damage from stealth attacks. It also lady for 5 seconds meaning at anytime during that 5 seconds if a nightblade enters the 12 meter radius they will be pulled from stealth. I use to use this ability slot when gankers were a thing. The problem with this ability is inner light is better in every situation except fighting nightblades because of the increase to max Magicka. So the argument becomes should you have to slightly weakened you build against other classes to make it stronger against nightblades. Radiant magelight is one of the actual viable counters to cloak, with detect pots and mark Target

It’s been a while since you used RML it seems.

Cost: [3511 / 3421 / 3331 / 3241] Magicka, Radius: 12 meters.
Summon a mote of magelight, revealing stealthed and invisible enemies around you for 5 seconds. Exposed enemies cannot return to stealth or invisibility for 3 seconds. While slotted you gain Major Prophecy, increasing your Spell Critical rating by 2191. You also prevent the stun from stealth attacks for you and nearby allies.

No, it’s not “really good”.

Right, it's more than really good, it's excellent.
Cloak has more counters than ant other skill in the game but it's still not good enough for the NB haters.

It's very easy to pull a NB out of cloak. If a NB gets away, he's either a really good NB or you're really bad at finding them or both. Once a NB is revealed, he's dead, period. A NB can't stack shields, cant armor up, cant streak away 6 times.

But that is anti cloak/ anti stealth establishment wants, to absolutely gut NBs into oblivion.

Cloak lasts 2.5 seconds. You want to put a 4 sec cooldown. How about we also put an 8 second cooldown on shields, 2 sec cooldown on streak, a cooldown that's 1.5 seconds longer than the up time on any armor skill. A 6 second cooldown on any self heal.

I didn’t comment on the cooldown idea - that would be a novel thing to do because ZOS has a design pattern of having only a global and not skill based cooldowns. For that reason alone the idea won’t make it into the game.

All I did comment on is that RML is not a good skill. If you’re opinion is that “once a NB is revealed, he’s dead, period” you’re speaking of pure glass cannon builds or really bad NBs. Nothing to do with RML being “excellent”.

Ragnarock41 · August 2018

RedRook wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

RedRook wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Evil/camo hunter is used more as an argument in forums to prevent cloak nerfs, than as an actual cloak counter. Its kinda funny that in my last 2 years of PvP, I've witnessed this skill getting used to counter stamblades less than 5 times (in none of those attempts it properly did its job) and I'm actually counting.

Other than DBOS - and maybe silver leash? - FG skills are pretty trash. They seem to be fine leaving them way, it's been years since they were a threat to anybody in PVP.

Edit: Forgot trap. I guess trap doesn't suck in PVE, so there's that.

When it comes to stamina builds , non stamblades are told that they are supposed to rely on these abilities, so Its in my best interest to ask for buffs to weapon/guild skills. DBOS is equally as good as leap, and other than that FG abilities are pretty meh, which I would like to change, I also don't understand why the best stealth counter ability in the game is also a nightblade exclusive. I think mark overperforms in doing its job, but having soooo many abilities just for the purpose of countering a single ability goes to show how strong cloak is.

So , either cloak will get streak treatment, or we will get proper counterplay tools, otherwise the nerf nb posts will probably go on forever.

They'll go on forever regardless, or at least until people who never play and don't care about the class succeed in getting it wrecked. See: templar.

templar, Dk... soon warden aswell. So much for diversity I guess.