Mr_Nobody wrote: »

A magplar came in here to check if sorcs need any towels to shed their tears.

Anyone?

Maybe if templars would just up their forum histrionics game, the class wouldn't be left mangled for... ever.

pieratsos wrote: »

Baconlad wrote: »

Frags was nerfed because zos wanted Sorcs to actually have to try to CC, by slotting a skill meant only to CC...
The rune cage change was evident of this.
Rune cage was over performing, their initial intent remains unchanged, and new cage Nerf is in line with their initial plans for sorc. God forbid we force a skill into your rotation...you know like every other class has. Ah *** NM...nightblades Will still not have to worry about CCing their target...getting a skill that does everything you can ask it to.

Actually you are wrong. They nerfed frags (no one knows why) and they gave sorcs rune cage and actually thought that it was going to work like it would on any other class. But just like you dont seem to understand sorcs so does ZOS. Sorcs cannot use a cc that does nothing but a stun. It doesnt fit in their kit because of their limited pressure, very small windows of burst meaning they cant extend their rotation to more cds and very limited bar space.

When they understood that they went and gave dmg to cage. And when cage became worth using because of its dmg it became broken as hell cause it was also undodgeable and unblockable. And now they went on and nerfed the ability again to an even worse state than it was before they buffed it. Its just worse than master reach.

There is only one iteration of cage which is balanced. That is to deal dmg but be dodgeable/blockable. In this case however u are just making it similar to frags and its still worse than master reach cause u dont give a bar slot. So what was the freaking point of nerfing frags in the first place if you are going to give them essentially the same crap that no one will use because they can use master reach which is going to be much closer to frags.

This whole rune cage situation is a freaking comedy. Buff,nerf,buff,nerf the same skill for half a year for no reason.

ZOS "smart solution"?

They'll nerf reach. So nobody will be able to tell it's better than rune cage any more.

You know they are NOT above doing this.

Sounds like yet another L2P post right here, I can't wait until it goes live on Xbox and ps4 so we can hear more people cry about it

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

Yubarius wrote: »

leb91han wrote: »

So u go make rune cage pretty op for a few months and now u nerf it to the ground and we r left with what nothing ? Well guess what ? Nobody asked for cage in the first place. Bring back frag stun . Just Look at how foxy was the tactic : Taking stun from frag leaving sorc hopeless for a while , then buff cage make sorcs pretty much godly op . Then oh look its 2 op we r sorry we need to nerf it to the ground . Then we r left with what ? Nothing : the big flat nerf to frag stun that u intended in the first place . No frag stun + uneffective rune = big big big nerf . BRING BACK FRAG STUN plz ty.

You get frag stun when magden gets A stun and/or an execute. RC still goes through block and streak still stuns no matter what. Stop acting like every sorc entitled to be OP every patch and complaining that your class is on a more even playing field with everyone else.

Hello noob.

Streak is blockable, stop spreading false information

Warden stun and sorc stun issues are not even close. Why bound the both ?

Sorc is before and now after summerset is bad because it's not competitive with others meta builds at high level. If you are a scrub being 1vX by a sorc, go l2p and don't rage and lie on the forum.

kiss kiss

Are you implying that sorc is somehow worse off than mag Warden when it comes to cc?

He's implying that because one class doesn't have a cc doesn't mean another class should become the same.

This 'WAAAA my class sucks so all other should as well WAAA' mentality that on this forum is messed up.

If people want to complain about mag warden needing a cc and i think they do need a cc then they should go make a thread about it.

But in a thread about rune cage on a sorc mag warden is just not relevant to the discussion.

MagWardens damage is more telegraphed than MagSorcs and just as delayed. Not only that it in addition it does not stick to target and is not fire & forget, unlike MagSorcs.

I think it is very relevant to compare and point out that this massive outcry is a bit pathetic, when looking at the problems other classes with similar (and more) restrictions have to deal with.

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

Yubarius wrote: »

leb91han wrote: »

So u go make rune cage pretty op for a few months and now u nerf it to the ground and we r left with what nothing ? Well guess what ? Nobody asked for cage in the first place. Bring back frag stun . Just Look at how foxy was the tactic : Taking stun from frag leaving sorc hopeless for a while , then buff cage make sorcs pretty much godly op . Then oh look its 2 op we r sorry we need to nerf it to the ground . Then we r left with what ? Nothing : the big flat nerf to frag stun that u intended in the first place . No frag stun + uneffective rune = big big big nerf . BRING BACK FRAG STUN plz ty.

You get frag stun when magden gets A stun and/or an execute. RC still goes through block and streak still stuns no matter what. Stop acting like every sorc entitled to be OP every patch and complaining that your class is on a more even playing field with everyone else.

Hello noob.

Streak is blockable, stop spreading false information

Warden stun and sorc stun issues are not even close. Why bound the both ?

Sorc is before and now after summerset is bad because it's not competitive with others meta builds at high level. If you are a scrub being 1vX by a sorc, go l2p and don't rage and lie on the forum.

kiss kiss

Are you implying that sorc is somehow worse off than mag Warden when it comes to cc?

He's implying that because one class doesn't have a cc doesn't mean another class should become the same.

This 'WAAAA my class sucks so all other should as well WAAA' mentality that on this forum is messed up.

If people want to complain about mag warden needing a cc and i think they do need a cc then they should go make a thread about it.

But in a thread about rune cage on a sorc mag warden is just not relevant to the discussion.

MagWardens damage is more telegraphed than MagSorcs and just as delayed. Not only that it in addition it does not stick to target and is not fire & forget, unlike MagSorcs.

I think it is very relevant to compare and point out that this massive outcry is a bit pathetic, when looking at the problems other classes with similar (and more) restrictions have to deal with.

Is there anyone playing ESO who doesn’t think that magWarden needs buffs and what they did to it is atrocious?

So much Sorc hate from those who doesn't understand anything beyond buttonmashing, lawl.

Feanor wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

Yubarius wrote: »

leb91han wrote: »

So u go make rune cage pretty op for a few months and now u nerf it to the ground and we r left with what nothing ? Well guess what ? Nobody asked for cage in the first place. Bring back frag stun . Just Look at how foxy was the tactic : Taking stun from frag leaving sorc hopeless for a while , then buff cage make sorcs pretty much godly op . Then oh look its 2 op we r sorry we need to nerf it to the ground . Then we r left with what ? Nothing : the big flat nerf to frag stun that u intended in the first place . No frag stun + uneffective rune = big big big nerf . BRING BACK FRAG STUN plz ty.

You get frag stun when magden gets A stun and/or an execute. RC still goes through block and streak still stuns no matter what. Stop acting like every sorc entitled to be OP every patch and complaining that your class is on a more even playing field with everyone else.

Hello noob.

Streak is blockable, stop spreading false information

Warden stun and sorc stun issues are not even close. Why bound the both ?

Sorc is before and now after summerset is bad because it's not competitive with others meta builds at high level. If you are a scrub being 1vX by a sorc, go l2p and don't rage and lie on the forum.

kiss kiss

Are you implying that sorc is somehow worse off than mag Warden when it comes to cc?

He's implying that because one class doesn't have a cc doesn't mean another class should become the same.

This 'WAAAA my class sucks so all other should as well WAAA' mentality that on this forum is messed up.

If people want to complain about mag warden needing a cc and i think they do need a cc then they should go make a thread about it.

But in a thread about rune cage on a sorc mag warden is just not relevant to the discussion.

MagWardens damage is more telegraphed than MagSorcs and just as delayed. Not only that it in addition it does not stick to target and is not fire & forget, unlike MagSorcs.

I think it is very relevant to compare and point out that this massive outcry is a bit pathetic, when looking at the problems other classes with similar (and more) restrictions have to deal with.

Is there anyone playing ESO who doesn’t think that magWarden needs buffs and what they did to it is atrocious?

My point is, magWarden (just like NB which magSorcs love to compare themselves with) is part of the game.

A substantial part of my critisism stems from the fact that forum sorcs (and ingame sorcs) tend to rarely look at what they actually have compared to the less privileged classes. They only compare themselves upwards to what they perceive as being stronger than their kit. It is a very convenient excuse to just say: "ye, we agree magwarden is trash" and dodge the downwards comparison by singleing out magWarden like that.

That's not how balance is achieved. If we look at ALL classes (not just the outliers on the very top) right now in the current state of the game, there is not much to complain about for MagSorcs. That's just how it is. Yet I have trouble finding a single one of all those oh-so-smart forum sorcs acknowledging that.

If I am considering my MagWarden as totally playable (despite its many shortcomings) at even the higher tiers of PvP - how can people be so ignorant and hysterical to even imply that magSorc would be unplayable now? And they do. All the same forum sorcs that you tend to "agree" with, with very few exceptions are transporting that kind of message all over the forums.

I don't see you making positive posts about magSorc performance, instead you (like all others) are repeating the same eternal mantras "Sorc can only potato mash". I personally don't think that is true at all and I was quite a good magSorc when I mained it. Maybe I'm just a huge potato, but having counterplay doesn't equal to "potato killer" in my books - quite the opposite, it makes for healthy gameplay, tactical gameplay.

Long story short, I still have hope some people have the mental capacities to realise they've been falling into the hyperbole trap. Bringing up magWarden as an example for something being worse off is not me crying louder, it is an attempt to put things into perpective.

@Mojomonkeyman

I see, but I just don't think accepting a nerf by saying "it could be worse, I could play a magWarden" is helping in making any class better. My issue with Sorc isn't specific skills mostly - it's the theme of every magSorc being virtually the same, except some stubborn DW leftovers or players like Malcolm who can pull off a well-fitted dodge roll build. My view is also a bit different because I exclusively play noCP. The strengths the class has are much lesser there because you miss out on stat pool increase and some valuable mitigation CP, as well as the damage ones ofc. For noCP I do think Sorc is a class that lacks a lot, even if less than magWarden.

I'm not even thinking that Sorc needs buffs though - you are right, it has a solid base. The game has changed so much in these 4 years, but Sorcs haven't, and that's why I'd like a rework or overhaul of the class. As for magWarden, by all means buff it.

Feanor wrote: »

@Mojomonkeyman

I see, but I just don't think accepting a nerf by saying "it could be worse, I could play a magWarden" is helping in making any class better. My issue with Sorc isn't specific skills mostly - it's the theme of every magSorc being virtually the same, except some stubborn DW leftovers or players like Malcolm who can pull off a well-fitted dodge roll build. My view is also a bit different because I exclusively play noCP. The strengths the class has are much lesser there because you miss out on stat pool increase and some valuable mitigation CP, as well as the damage ones ofc. For noCP I do think Sorc is a class that lacks a lot, even if less than magWarden.

I'm not even thinking that Sorc needs buffs though - you are right, it has a solid base. The game has changed so much in these 4 years, but Sorcs haven't, and that's why I'd like a rework or overhaul of the class. As for magWarden, by all means buff it.

Thanks for the reply. Those are exactly the comments I feel are missing in those sorc discussions. Reasonable and analytical comments that don't auto-join the complain-chorus just because.

Derra wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Absolutely not, the difference is I don't compare my magWarden solely to Sorcs. I was making a point that all those sorc discussions on the forums are missing other comparisons besides mSorc vs NB or mSorc vs Stam. And I am claiming that it would be an eye-opening experience if those comparisons would include all setups played.

I, on the contrary, am the first to agree that compared to Templars and even DKs, Warden has a lot of privileges in some areas (the Warden house being much more efficient and dangerous than the Templar house, certain skills with similar output having 1/3rd of the cost of corresponding Templar skills, same goes for Warden vs DK with shimmer ing and wings). I can have those duiscussions on a fundamentally different level because its about both, weakness and strengths. I am not cherrypicking the comparisons that suit my agenda best.

The problem is though - magsorc isn´t really comparable to anything but stamina and magica NB.

The forum sorcs could go the route and compare themselves to warden, magplar and magDK - but then do that in a "standyourground" scenario - the class is utterly unfit for those though and a comparison would just go to point out MORE painpoints about sorcs.

So sorcs are comparing themselves in the same scenario you´d compare your warden in.
The strenghs lie with shieldstacking (vs magica) and streak - with the latter being hard to utilize effectively. Shieldstacking is a topic that´s been discussed for ages now and i think most good sorcs would love to get away from it with some balanced trade for non shield focused defense + slight offensive buff.

The problem is that the thing sorc really excells at compared to fitting counterparts it´s in creating a *** gameplay experience for all participants of a fight bc it ´s really good at draws.
Meh.

Well, I am not suggesting "mobile" classes to outline why they can't stand their ground and I don't think this is even necessary for the discussinon. The way to bring all the playstyles together for comparisons sake, is rating 1) overall survival and 2) kill potential. That's the common denominantor we all have in PvP no matter the playstyle. We want to be able to kill and we want to be able to survive.

I think the approach is viable, legit and rebuttal to your objection/apprehension. If we apply that approach we can outline power tiers for different scenarios.

My personal conclusion is, that after the removal of scaling mechanics which benefitted "standyourground" most, mobility has far too much influence on survival and partially kill potential (the KPIs for a "fun" gaming experience), too. We talked about it, there even is no need to cut mobility off of the ususal suspects to balance playstyles - scaling mechanics need to be re-enabled to strengthen "standyourground".

pieratsos wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Baconlad wrote: »

Frags was nerfed because zos wanted Sorcs to actually have to try to CC, by slotting a skill meant only to CC...
The rune cage change was evident of this.
Rune cage was over performing, their initial intent remains unchanged, and new cage Nerf is in line with their initial plans for sorc. God forbid we force a skill into your rotation...you know like every other class has. Ah *** NM...nightblades Will still not have to worry about CCing their target...getting a skill that does everything you can ask it to.

Actually you are wrong. They nerfed frags (no one knows why) and they gave sorcs rune cage and actually thought that it was going to work like it would on any other class. But just like you dont seem to understand sorcs so does ZOS. Sorcs cannot use a cc that does nothing but a stun. It doesnt fit in their kit because of their limited pressure, very small windows of burst meaning they cant extend their rotation to more cds and very limited bar space.

When they understood that they went and gave dmg to cage. And when cage became worth using because of its dmg it became broken as hell cause it was also undodgeable and unblockable. And now they went on and nerfed the ability again to an even worse state than it was before they buffed it. Its just worse than master reach.

There is only one iteration of cage which is balanced. That is to deal dmg but be dodgeable/blockable. In this case however u are just making it similar to frags and its still worse than master reach cause u dont give a bar slot. So what was the freaking point of nerfing frags in the first place if you are going to give them essentially the same crap that no one will use because they can use master reach which is going to be much closer to frags.

This whole rune cage situation is a freaking comedy. Buff,nerf,buff,nerf the same skill for half a year for no reason.

ZOS "smart solution"?

They'll nerf reach. So nobody will be able to tell it's better than rune cage any more.

You know they are NOT above doing this.

Got to admit, never thought of that. Next patch. We nerfed master reach to make rune cage look better.

I don't have a masters staff - and have no intention of farming one.. but currently would rather run non-masters reach than cage.

Holy crap there's still people moaning about sorcs on this thread? Wow.

Ohhh its ok it's my console brethren, clearly no one on PC has an issue with sorcs now. Or if you do I'm sure once you hit L50 and get past Kyne you'll realize they aren't that hard to beat.

Cries wrote: »

Please explain how rune cage has been nerfed to the ground? It no longer deals damage if you cc break, which should have never been added to begin with. Still has the same long range, still can cc people for a generous 3.5 seconds, instant cast. The only real change that's been made is that it no longer stuns people who are dodge rolling which is a well-needed change. It's BS that sorcs have gotten away with undodgable hit you all at once burst for so long, finally some counterplay, like previously you weren't able to block, you weren't able to dodge, the only counterplay was using a hot or burst heal which doesn't matter since sorc can execute preemptively and hit you with 4 abilities all at once.

Umm did you forget about Shuffle? RC can be passively dodged now. This nerfs it to the ground.

Xvorg wrote: »

ccmedaddy wrote: »

Step 1: call everyone a noob
Step 2: explain why they can't kill any competent player on their magsorc because *gasp* each class has a defensive mechanism to deal with incoming damage.

This has to be some sort of performance art.

Want to know what's the defensive Mechanism of DK. Just, don't say Block...

Intimidation?