Hey ZOS, how about we stop buffing Balls groups every patch?

Xsorus · August 2018

"The siege masters of Vivec and Shor have learned from their counterparts in Sotha Sil, and all siege weapons will be more effective against players in Champion enabled Campaigns."

and this is your developer response to that

"Siege damage over the years has tailed off in terms of raw output when comparing CP vs. No-CP campaigns. Siege in Non-CP campaigns deal damage that more closely resembles the original design and intent of Siege weaponry. The changes we’re doing to Siege damage in Champion-enabled campaigns result in closer parity between CP and Non-CP Siege damage."

Basically you're Siege damage isn't enough to kill a lot of CP players compared to how it is on NO CP....

Yet... 3 patches later what do I see

"Siege Shield: This ability and its morphs now reduce the damage you take from siege attacks by 50%, originally 35%."

So you buffed siege damage to make it stronger on CP, then turn around and buff the Siege shield ability...the ability that pretty much only Ball Groups are able to run because everyone else who's not in a group can't support it in a build... So you're buffing ball groups...making everyone else take more Siege Damage.

This is a problem that you guys have..you consistently do this every patch cycle...

STOP BUFFING BALL GROUPS.

leepalmer95 · August 2018

Ball groups are their whales.

Why would they buff the small scalers/ solo players.

VaranisArano · August 2018

Its almost like Cyrodiil is designed for groups of 2 to 24 players, originally for groups of 8 to 24 players, and consistently favors organized groups over disorganized ones.

leepalmer95 · August 2018

VaranisArano wrote: »

Its almost like Cyrodiil is designed for groups of 2 to 24 players, originally for groups of 8 to 24 players, and consistently favors organized groups over disorganized ones.

It was designed for big fights.

It can't handle big fights.

What it was designed for and what should change now aren't related.

Valrien · August 2018

I like how large-scale siege based organized PvP is looked down upon in Cyrodiil of all places.

leepalmer95 · August 2018

Valrien wrote: »

I like how large-scale siege based organized PvP is looked down upon in Cyrodiil of all places.

The fact you're in a large group should be enough of a advantage. The fact you outnumber the enemy 4:1 in a fight should be advantage enough.

The game shouldn't give you plenty of hidden advantages/ sets/ mechanics that then buff you more because you're in a group. If anything it should be the other way around, to give smaller groups some type of chance to actually fight back.

Every change they seem to make only makes zergs strong, every new OP set they bring in makes zergs stronger.

ak_pvp · August 2018

VaranisArano wrote: »

Its almost like Cyrodiil is designed for groups of 2 to 24 players, originally for groups of 8 to 24 players, and consistently favors organized groups over disorganized ones.

Cyrodiil was designed for every number. Dynamic ult was a thing.

Honestly they'd be better catering to the smaller group players because they don't give everyone a seething hatred of cyrodiil and lag that the ball groups do.

OP don't really bother. Game is too casual and you'll be crucified for thinking that better players should get better results. And that... god forbid... people have to... git gud.

VaranisArano · August 2018

ak_pvp wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Its almost like Cyrodiil is designed for groups of 2 to 24 players, originally for groups of 8 to 24 players, and consistently favors organized groups over disorganized ones.

Cyrodiil was designed for every number. Dynamic ult was a thing.

Honestly they'd be better catering to the smaller group players because they don't give everyone a seething hatred of cyrodiil and lag that the ball groups do.

OP don't really bother. Game is too casual and you'll be crucified for thinking that better players should get better results. And that... god forbid... people have to... git gud.

Strangely enough, I do think that better players and especially more organized players should get better results. I certainly find that better players and organized groups already do better than disorganized groups or less skilled players. That's pretty obvious in Battlegrounds and in Cyrodiil.

But it sounds like you think an organized small group should be able to take on an organized large group and win.

That's the part I can't see, because if both groups have equal organization and tactical skill, obviously the larger organized group should win. Just like an organized small group can do very well against a large group of disorganized players. Whoever has the best organization and group tactics should win, or if those are equal, the larger group will win.

So I guess my response to "git gud," is "Sure, but its even more effective to 'git organized' when it comes to group combat."

And that's why everything ZOS does winds up buffing organized groups, because its their organization that lets them dominate over many more disorganized players, no matter whether we're talking organized small scale or large group organized players. But I don't expect organized small scalers to beat equally organized large groups.

RedRook · August 2018

Xsorus wrote: »

"The siege masters of Vivec and Shor have learned from their counterparts in Sotha Sil, and all siege weapons will be more effective against players in Champion enabled Campaigns."

and this is your developer response to that

"Siege damage over the years has tailed off in terms of raw output when comparing CP vs. No-CP campaigns. Siege in Non-CP campaigns deal damage that more closely resembles the original design and intent of Siege weaponry. The changes we’re doing to Siege damage in Champion-enabled campaigns result in closer parity between CP and Non-CP Siege damage."

Basically you're Siege damage isn't enough to kill a lot of CP players compared to how it is on NO CP....

Yet... 3 patches later what do I see

"Siege Shield: This ability and its morphs now reduce the damage you take from siege attacks by 50%, originally 35%."

So you buffed siege damage to make it stronger on CP, then turn around and buff the Siege shield ability...the ability that pretty much only Ball Groups are able to run because everyone else who's not in a group can't support it in a build... So you're buffing ball groups...making everyone else take more Siege Damage.

This is a problem that you guys have..you consistently do this every patch cycle...

STOP BUFFING BALL GROUPS.

Yeah, I had to laugh.

I loved the change to siege damage. I like longer sieges, and it's been reliably useful against ball groups when we don't have a ball group of our own to go deal with them. There were some places where it was a problem though, particularly with siege hitting the upper inner keep from so many locations it was quickly rendered useless.

So they buffed siege shield. lol

Half measures though. They should also change siege shield as they did purge and rapids so it only applies to people with whom you are grouped. Why not. Everybody in Cyro not surrounded by a cushion of specialists can just go **** themselves.

Xsorus · August 2018

If they want to buff siege shield... they should give it a freakin passive that both solos and groups might use it.

ak_pvp · August 2018

VaranisArano wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Its almost like Cyrodiil is designed for groups of 2 to 24 players, originally for groups of 8 to 24 players, and consistently favors organized groups over disorganized ones.

Cyrodiil was designed for every number. Dynamic ult was a thing.

Honestly they'd be better catering to the smaller group players because they don't give everyone a seething hatred of cyrodiil and lag that the ball groups do.

OP don't really bother. Game is too casual and you'll be crucified for thinking that better players should get better results. And that... god forbid... people have to... git gud.

Strangely enough, I do think that better players and especially more organized players should get better results. I certainly find that better players and organized groups already do better than disorganized groups or less skilled players. That's pretty obvious in Battlegrounds and in Cyrodiil.

But it sounds like you think an organized small group should be able to take on an organized large group and win.

That's the part I can't see, because if both groups have equal organization and tactical skill, obviously the larger organized group should win. Just like an organized small group can do very well against a large group of disorganized players. Whoever has the best organization and group tactics should win, or if those are equal, the larger group will win.

So I guess my response to "git gud," is "Sure, but its even more effective to 'git organized' when it comes to group combat."

And that's why everything ZOS does winds up buffing organized groups, because its their organization that lets them dominate over many more disorganized players, no matter whether we're talking organized small scale or large group organized players. But I don't expect organized small scalers to beat equally organized large groups.

Nah, I don't think organized small should be better than organized large, I think that large, organized or no instead has too much too easily. As it is, things like low counterplay strengths like siege, sloads, and stacking easy heals mean that large groups even if less organized can get more firepower and healing than the individuals added together.

Its super easy to roll over a group just because of numbers, organized or no because of mechanics in the game that means effectiveness increases due to the ease of specializing. This shouldn't happen, there should be no incentive bar being more, and those members should have to spec for their own defense/offense a little too, not "oh well someone will heal me no biggie lets go full damage."

For example, a 2/3/4vX each player has to pull their weight as they are organized, you can spec specific healers and damage dealers, however healer has to spec for some damage that isn't just be tanky and sit in a 30 person moshpit, and the damage dealer has to spec for some defense as to not rely solely on the healer.

That difficulty or base level effort is what I want to be applied to zergs. Then, everyone will have to start from the ground up getting beat, or joining small skirmishes to gain skill, not just jump into the local lag ball and not get better or be incentivised to get better because you are being carried. Call it elitism or whatever but in my eyes elitism is a good thing.

Also, AoE effect cap. Why does this still exist? Like talons/encase/spikes can only root 6 people, and shooting star can only return ult for 6 people, so a max of 72 ult returned. These effects should be uncapped.

VaranisArano · August 2018

ak_pvp wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Its almost like Cyrodiil is designed for groups of 2 to 24 players, originally for groups of 8 to 24 players, and consistently favors organized groups over disorganized ones.

Cyrodiil was designed for every number. Dynamic ult was a thing.

Honestly they'd be better catering to the smaller group players because they don't give everyone a seething hatred of cyrodiil and lag that the ball groups do.

OP don't really bother. Game is too casual and you'll be crucified for thinking that better players should get better results. And that... god forbid... people have to... git gud.

Strangely enough, I do think that better players and especially more organized players should get better results. I certainly find that better players and organized groups already do better than disorganized groups or less skilled players. That's pretty obvious in Battlegrounds and in Cyrodiil.

But it sounds like you think an organized small group should be able to take on an organized large group and win.

That's the part I can't see, because if both groups have equal organization and tactical skill, obviously the larger organized group should win. Just like an organized small group can do very well against a large group of disorganized players. Whoever has the best organization and group tactics should win, or if those are equal, the larger group will win.

So I guess my response to "git gud," is "Sure, but its even more effective to 'git organized' when it comes to group combat."

And that's why everything ZOS does winds up buffing organized groups, because its their organization that lets them dominate over many more disorganized players, no matter whether we're talking organized small scale or large group organized players. But I don't expect organized small scalers to beat equally organized large groups.

Nah, I don't think organized small should be better than organized large, I think that large, organized or no instead has too much too easily. As it is, things like low counterplay strengths like siege, sloads, and stacking easy heals mean that large groups even if less organized can get more firepower and healing than the individuals added together.

Its super easy to roll over a group just because of numbers, organized or no because of mechanics in the game that means effectiveness increases due to the ease of specializing. This shouldn't happen, there should be no incentive bar being more, and those members should have to spec for their own defense/offense a little too, not "oh well someone will heal me no biggie lets go full damage."

For example, a 2/3/4vX each player has to pull their weight as they are organized, you can spec specific healers and damage dealers, however healer has to spec for some damage that isn't just be tanky and sit in a 30 person moshpit, and the damage dealer has to spec for some defense as to not rely solely on the healer.

That difficulty or base level effort is what I want to be applied to zergs. Then, everyone will have to start from the ground up getting beat, or joining small skirmishes to gain skill, not just jump into the local lag ball and not get better or be incentivised to get better because you are being carried. Call it elitism or whatever but in my eyes elitism is a good thing.

Also, AoE effect cap. Why does this still exist? Like talons/encase/spikes can only root 6 people, and shooting star can only return ult for 6 people, so a max of 72 ult returned. These effects should be uncapped.

That's mostly fair. I too would prefer to see organized small groups be more effective against zergs of disorganized players, though in my experience, organized small groups are generally pretty darned effective against disorganized zergs already. Since that's the case, I'm unsurprised that organized large groups are very effective against disorganized zergs.

Now the AOE effect cap is interesting, and I'm not sure why ZOS chose to limit that to 6 people when they lifted the AOE damage cap. If ZOS could fix the whole issue with CC immunity and Break Free working properly, I think that wouldn't be too bad to add to the game.

Feanor · August 2018

VaranisArano wrote: »

Its almost like Cyrodiil is designed for groups of 2 to 24 players, originally for groups of 8 to 24 players, and consistently favors organized groups over disorganized ones.

There is a difference between a 7k Coldfire Treb DoT that can be handled even in noCP and a nuclear fallout zone that is Meatbag and Scattershot areas.

Narvuntien · August 2018

Cryodil should reward organisation and co-ordination.

That includes being able to gather a large group of people together and get them to the right place.

If you hate ball groups play battlegrounds.

Feanor · August 2018

Narvuntien wrote: »

Cryodil should reward organisation and co-ordination.

That includes being able to gather a large group of people together and get them to the right place.

If you hate ball groups play battlegrounds.

Cyrodiil should reward faction stacking?

Silver_Strider · August 2018

To be fair, since the buff to scattershot and meatbag, siege shield has sort of fallen behind since it doesn't counter the ground DoT at all. Even with this buff to SS, those 2 are going to be just as brutal, if not more so, than they currently are.

This is more a nerf to oil and Coldharbours than anything else.

Derra · August 2018

Valrien wrote: »

I like how large-scale siege based organized PvP is looked down upon in Cyrodiil of all places.

That´s because organisation should be a feat only achieved by the best guilds - not something handed to players by the games UI and to some extend addons.

Open pvp in the past has been best when big fights were chaotic to some extend because organisation was hard/impossible because that opens up more possibilities to participate for players of all kinds in those large fights.

leepalmer95 · August 2018

Currently the games groups work as follows:

The more people you add the more effective each person added becomes to the group.

A healer in a 8 man on the exact same build is less effective than a healing in a 40 man. Spamming springs to heal 8 ppl or to heal 20+ ppl, the ball healer is going to get more heal/s just by doing the same thing.

When to have a balanced game it should be the more people in a group the less effective boost to the group each person adds.

1 more person in a group should be more effective joining a 4 man group than joining a 23 man group, but thats not the case.

1 more person in a 4 man isn't going to help much, an extra healer in a 23 man is going to make a difference, especially with sets like earthgore etc..

Sandman929 · August 2018

leepalmer95 wrote: »

When to have a balanced game it should be the more people in a group the less effective boost to the group each person adds.

How should someone be made less effective?

Stibbons · August 2018

They should fix siege shot travel speed. Just stupid to even try to land shot in ball zerg running with speeds and immunities. Camoon! Ballista arrow speed should be doubled!

The-Baconator · August 2018

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Currently the games groups work as follows:

The more people you add the more effective each person added becomes to the group.

A healer in a 8 man on the exact same build is less effective than a healing in a 40 man. Spamming springs to heal 8 ppl or to heal 20+ ppl, the ball healer is going to get more heal/s just by doing the same thing.

When to have a balanced game it should be the more people in a group the less effective boost to the group each person adds.

1 more person in a group should be more effective joining a 4 man group than joining a 23 man group, but thats not the case.

1 more person in a 4 man isn't going to help much, an extra healer in a 23 man is going to make a difference, especially with sets like earthgore etc..

After the removal of AoE caps the healer hitting 8 ppl with their springs will be far more impactful than the guy hitting +20 because healing is capped at 6 ppl while damage is completely uncapped. Essentially a 24 man will take 3x as much damage as an 8 man, assuming they are stacked similarly, while healing is the same on a per person basis. Generally when I'm in a small group I PREFER my enemies to be supper stacked because they're far easier to kill that way.

Also I completely disagree with your 3+1 vs 23+1 argument. The extra 1 in a 23 man isn't doing much of anything where having a 4 man as opposed to a 3 man is huge. You're adding 33% more burst\healing\etc while also throwing in someone else who can draw single target aggro\pressure that saves another member of the group from having to eat 4-5 ults as opposed to 2-3.

VaranisArano · August 2018

The-Baconator wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Currently the games groups work as follows:

The more people you add the more effective each person added becomes to the group.

A healer in a 8 man on the exact same build is less effective than a healing in a 40 man. Spamming springs to heal 8 ppl or to heal 20+ ppl, the ball healer is going to get more heal/s just by doing the same thing.

When to have a balanced game it should be the more people in a group the less effective boost to the group each person adds.

1 more person in a group should be more effective joining a 4 man group than joining a 23 man group, but thats not the case.

1 more person in a 4 man isn't going to help much, an extra healer in a 23 man is going to make a difference, especially with sets like earthgore etc..

After the removal of AoE caps the healer hitting 8 ppl with their springs will be far more impactful than the guy hitting +20 because healing is capped at 6 ppl while damage is completely uncapped. Essentially a 24 man will take 3x as much damage as an 8 man, assuming they are stacked similarly, while healing is the same on a per person basis. Generally when I'm in a small group I PREFER my enemies to be supper stacked because they're far easier to kill that way.

That's true that the single healer in an 8-man group is more effective than a single healer in a 24-man group, but show me the 24-man raid that only runs 1 healer. Most 24-man raids I fight run enough healers for their group size. Now, PUGs or disorganized zergs might definitely run into the 1 healer per 24 players ratio, and that's one reason why disorganized zergs are easier to defeat.

leepalmer95 · August 2018

VaranisArano wrote: »

The-Baconator wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Currently the games groups work as follows:

The more people you add the more effective each person added becomes to the group.

A healer in a 8 man on the exact same build is less effective than a healing in a 40 man. Spamming springs to heal 8 ppl or to heal 20+ ppl, the ball healer is going to get more heal/s just by doing the same thing.

When to have a balanced game it should be the more people in a group the less effective boost to the group each person adds.

1 more person in a group should be more effective joining a 4 man group than joining a 23 man group, but thats not the case.

1 more person in a 4 man isn't going to help much, an extra healer in a 23 man is going to make a difference, especially with sets like earthgore etc..

After the removal of AoE caps the healer hitting 8 ppl with their springs will be far more impactful than the guy hitting +20 because healing is capped at 6 ppl while damage is completely uncapped. Essentially a 24 man will take 3x as much damage as an 8 man, assuming they are stacked similarly, while healing is the same on a per person basis. Generally when I'm in a small group I PREFER my enemies to be supper stacked because they're far easier to kill that way.

That's true that the single healer in an 8-man group is more effective than a single healer in a 24-man group, but show me the 24-man raid that only runs 1 healer. Most 24-man raids I fight run enough healers for their group size. Now, PUGs or disorganized zergs might definitely run into the 1 healer per 24 players ratio, and that's one reason why disorganized zergs are easier to defeat.

It's near impossible to kill balls groups who run 4-5 full healers in heavy with 30k~ hp that cross heal, rotate healing ults and have sets like earthgorge on and reactive.

It's even worse then they setup healers like so with duroks/ wizards or reactive/ trans etc... So even when you try to melt them you do less dmg, less crit dmg and can't heal.

NyassaV · August 2018

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Ball groups are their whales.

Why would they buff the small scalers/ solo players.

Cuz a lot of us spend a lot of money UNTIL we see their stupid changes. Then we stop

Kova · August 2018

Don't prioritize large groups and one click mechanics? That's funny. Hah.

I actually came back for the midyear mayhem event after about 6 months leave. I was able to roll over the pve groups without too much of a problem, but it wasn't long until the mid-large groups started chasing me down anytime I poked them.

The best part was getting t-bagged by a player group that use to zerg me down before I took the break. It honestly felt like they were saying, "Hey, welcome back! You didn't miss a thing! lololool"

I've played since beta. High skill left when Imperial City launched and everyone's just surfing the aftershock now. Today I've seen a nerf sorcs thread, a nerf animation cancelling thread, and now a "buff smallscale" thread. It's pretty amazing we've figured out how to cryogenically freeze and preserve an MMO community. Must be all the salt.

See you all in 3018.

Durham · August 2018

I just hate the lag created from these ball groups.. I have no other problem with them and do not blame them.

But ball group meta creates unplayable lag and that affects everyone.. This is the #1 thing that drives people from pvp...

This is something ZoS has acknowledged multiple times however fixing it would make some drastic changes that would heavily affect pve.... This would involve probally the way healing works ...

Galarthor · August 2018

Xsorus wrote: »

STOP BUFFING BALL GROUPS.

You mad bro? Where would ESO become?

pieratsos · August 2018

The-Baconator wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Currently the games groups work as follows:

The more people you add the more effective each person added becomes to the group.

A healer in a 8 man on the exact same build is less effective than a healing in a 40 man. Spamming springs to heal 8 ppl or to heal 20+ ppl, the ball healer is going to get more heal/s just by doing the same thing.

When to have a balanced game it should be the more people in a group the less effective boost to the group each person adds.

1 more person in a group should be more effective joining a 4 man group than joining a 23 man group, but thats not the case.

1 more person in a 4 man isn't going to help much, an extra healer in a 23 man is going to make a difference, especially with sets like earthgore etc..

After the removal of AoE caps the healer hitting 8 ppl with their springs will be far more impactful than the guy hitting +20 because healing is capped at 6 ppl while damage is completely uncapped. Essentially a 24 man will take 3x as much damage as an 8 man, assuming they are stacked similarly, while healing is the same on a per person basis. Generally when I'm in a small group I PREFER my enemies to be supper stacked because they're far easier to kill that way.

Also I completely disagree with your 3+1 vs 23+1 argument. The extra 1 in a 23 man isn't doing much of anything where having a 4 man as opposed to a 3 man is huge. You're adding 33% more burst\healing\etc while also throwing in someone else who can draw single target aggro\pressure that saves another member of the group from having to eat 4-5 ults as opposed to 2-3.

Healing is affected by smart healing. The healer in a 24 man will not heal just 6 people. He is always going to heal the 6 people who need it. He is also going to have earthgore keeping the group alive and other buff/debuff sets, purges to help the entire group.

You think that he is not doing much of anything because you are not going to see a group of 24 people without a healer to see the difference like you would with a small group. But imagine a full raid with no healers. At the first time they get bombed they will all die most likely. Now imagine if they have even one healer. Every half a minute he is saving the entire group from dying with earthgore, he is purging the group and buffing them with a set or probably debuffing anyone the group fights with riposte or duroks and he is also almost impossible to target inside the group. One healer in a group of 24 is way more effective than in a group of 4.