Crown Store Exclusives, Convenience, "P2W", etc -- thoughts on balancing cash shop concerns

tinythinker · April 2018

Touchy subject(s), so I am putting this thread in the Crown Store & ESO Plus forum both because it is the appropriate location and to avoid some of the trolling/flaming that breaks out on the General Forum.

I get that ZOS wants/needs revenue beyond optional subs and he box price of the base game, DLC, and Chapters. I also get the frustration with going from convenience-only to "Crown Store/Crown Crate Exclusives". The fact is, glamour/transmog/outfits have been the true end-game for many players in different MMOs for years, and this is becoming more common. Some crafters, fashionistas, collectors of pets/mounts, etc. can't or don't want to have to keep buying pricey limited time stuff on the Crown Store on a regular basis. It can feel a bit like "P2W" for their areas of interest. (Note: This is not an argument about whether the Crown Store is P2W, the obvious reading is that I am pointing out how frustrated some players feel about having items for areas of the game they really enjoy obtainable only for extra real world money.)

ESO Plus does give 1500 Crowns per month, yet, the costs of items, the selection of items, and the range of items has greatly increased since that reward was set up. So now there will be daily log-in items which can include Crown Crates. I'm not going to litigate the Crown Crate issue here. There have been and still are tons of threads on that topic. Please join or start a new thread on that rather than argue about them here.

For this post I am assuming that ESO Plus, Crown Crates, and Crown Store Exclusive items are here to stay. That is, I am considering how to address concerns of various groups of players *within* that reality.

My suggestions and their reasoning are:

1. Increase access to Crown Store items through conversion of daily rewards. So far we've heard that the daily log-in rewards will include "consumables, currencies, special collectibles, and even Crown Crates" but not how these will work or the relative rates of each. They should all be convertible to Crown Gems. That way, if you get something you don't need or want you can still use the gems. If you have less disposable income or are frugal, you can build up gems over time to buy items in the cash shop you might not otherwise afford. You aren't going to be buying that 5000 Crown item with gems after a week, but you are still getting somewhere. The whales, the impatient, the impulsive, and those who can afford to regularly buy cash shop items and choose to won't be slowed by this. It just helps other people while *rewarding* regularly logging in to play.

2. Bring back loyalty rewards for subs. One example (focus on "example") is that at three months subbed, you get a bundle of crates. At six month you get a bundle plus a (mid-tier) Crown Store item. At nine months you the bundle plus a higher tier item. At twelve months you get the bundle and 50% off any single Crown Store item of your choice (bankable for nearly a year). Then the cycle resets and you start earning a three month bonus, then six month, etc. all over again. You can't get a second 50% off coupon so use it or lose it as it will be overwritten by the new one on day you earn the next twelve month bonus. As mentioned above in the introduction the Crown Store prices and selection ain't what they used to be when the 1500 Crowns per month reward was introduced, and loyalty rewards encourage players to keep their subs going year-round. That 50% off coupon means subs can grab some limited time offer that they otherwise might not be able to afford or feel comfortable spending so much real-world money on.

3. Let all Crown Crate rewards for daily log-ins and loyalty rewards be giftable. So if I get my loyalty rewards for subbing and decide I don't want or need them, I can just gift them to another player who will appreciate them. Or I can just sit on them if I am opposed to Crown Crates.

4. Make in-game and Crown Store items upgradeable through game play. I've suggested this before in a different context (initially about encouraging faction pride and loyalty), but it fits here. There is already a mount, a costume, and even headwear and tattoos that are Alliance specific available in the Crown Store. Similar items items can be added either for in-game rewards or to the Crown Store for: Undaunted Guild, Mages Guild, Thieves Guild, Dark Brotherhood, Psijic Order, etc. The trick is, however you get it, it can be upgraded but *ONLY* through game play.

An example of how it works: when you reach Alliance Rank 17 (Lieutenant, Grade One) you go from ranks designated by stripes to ranks to ranks designated by diamonds. So, you unlock new optional appearances for the Alliance mount and Alliance costume. When you graduate from the diamond ranks to the moon ranks, you unlock a new upgrade. When you reach the star ranks, another upgrade unlocks. The same can be done in PvE. You have to join an NPC guild to even get the mount, costume, skin or whatever, whether you obtain the item(s) in-game or from the cash shop. Then when you earn the achievement for reaching max rank with the guild, or earn some other specific achievement tied to that NPC guild, you unlock an optional upgrade to appearance. Other appearances could be unlocked for additional existing achievements that take some commitment to earn. ZOS can expand activities and achievements for PvE NPC Guilds where needed to give players more to strive for/unlock. It can extend beyond AvA and NPC Guilds. These could even be tied to master crafting and crafting achievements with existing or new outfits, or pets, or mounts, or skins, etc.

Summary of reasoning: The idea is to:

- make Crown Store rewards more accessible to all players by letting people convert any log-in reward to Crown Gems and allowing earned Crown Crates to be giftable
- increase the value of a sub/staying subbed to keep up with the new Crown Store reality through a revived and revised reward system
- emphasize *playing the game* and working toward achievements that will amplify the value of items like mounts, outfits, skins, pets etc. so that there are a greater number of visible signs for player accomplishments (that aren't all super-hard to obtain but still require effort beyond being a wallet-hero) while increasing the potential value of many cash shop items

Thanks for reading.

Atallanta · May 2018

tinythinker wrote: »

Touchy subject(s), so I am putting this thread in the Crown Store & ESO Plus forum both because it is the appropriate location and to avoid some of the trolling/flaming that breaks out on the General Forum.

I get that ZOS wants/needs revenue beyond optional subs and he box price of the base game, DLC, and Chapters. I also get the frustration with going from convenience-only to "Crown Store/Crown Crate Exclusives". The fact is, glamour/transmog/outfits have been the true end-game for many players in different MMOs for years, and this is becoming more common. Some crafters, fashionistas, collectors of pets/mounts, etc. can't or don't want to have to keep buying pricey limited time stuff on the Crown Store on a regular basis. It can feel a bit like "P2W" for their areas of interest. (Note: This is not an argument about whether the Crown Store is P2W, the obvious reading is that I am pointing out how frustrated some players feel about having items for areas of the game they really enjoy obtainable only for extra real world money.)

ESO Plus does give 1500 Crowns per month, yet, the costs of items, the selection of items, and the range of items has greatly increased since that reward was set up. So now there will be daily log-in items which can include Crown Crates. I'm not going to litigate the Crown Crate issue here. There have been and still are tons of threads on that topic. Please join or start a new thread on that rather than argue about them here.

For this post I am assuming that ESO Plus, Crown Crates, and Crown Store Exclusive items are here to stay. That is, I am considering how to address concerns of various groups of players *within* that reality.

My suggestions and their reasoning are:

1. Increase access to Crown Store items through conversion of daily rewards. So far we've heard that the daily log-in rewards will include "consumables, currencies, special collectibles, and even Crown Crates" but not how these will work or the relative rates of each. They should all be convertible to Crown Gems. That way, if you get something you don't need or want you can still use the gems. If you have less disposable income or are frugal, you can build up gems over time to buy items in the cash shop you might not otherwise afford. You aren't going to be buying that 5000 Crown item with gems after a week, but you are still getting somewhere. The whales, the impatient, the impulsive, and those who can afford to regularly buy cash shop items and choose to won't be slowed by this. It just helps other people while *rewarding* regularly logging in to play.

2. Bring back loyalty rewards for subs. One example (focus on "example") is that at three months subbed, you get a bundle of crates. At six month you get a bundle plus a (mid-tier) Crown Store item. At nine months you the bundle plus a higher tier item. At twelve months you get the bundle and 50% off any single Crown Store item of your choice (bankable for nearly a year). Then the cycle resets and you start earning a three month bonus, then six month, etc. all over again. You can't get a second 50% off coupon so use it or lose it as it will be overwritten by the new one on day you earn the next twelve month bonus. As mentioned above in the introduction the Crown Store prices and selection ain't what they used to be when the 1500 Crowns per month reward was introduced, and loyalty rewards encourage players to keep their subs going year-round. That 50% off coupon means subs can grab some limited time offer that they otherwise might not be able to afford or feel comfortable spending so much real-world money on.

3. Let all Crown Crate rewards for daily log-ins and loyalty rewards be giftable. So if I get my loyalty rewards for subbing and decide I don't want or need them, I can just gift them to another player who will appreciate them. Or I can just sit on them if I am opposed to Crown Crates.

4. Make in-game and Crown Store items upgradeable through game play. I've suggested this before in a different context (initially about encouraging faction pride and loyalty), but it fits here. There is already a mount, a costume, and even headwear and tattoos that are Alliance specific available in the Crown Store. Similar items items can be added either for in-game rewards or to the Crown Store for: Undaunted Guild, Mages Guild, Thieves Guild, Dark Brotherhood, Psijic Order, etc. The trick is, however you get it, it can be upgraded but *ONLY* through game play.

An example of how it works: when you reach Alliance Rank 17 (Lieutenant, Grade One) you go from ranks designated by stripes to ranks to ranks designated by diamonds. So, you unlock new optional appearances for the Alliance mount and Alliance costume. When you graduate from the diamond ranks to the moon ranks, you unlock a new upgrade. When you reach the star ranks, another upgrade unlocks. The same can be done in PvE. You have to join an NPC guild to even get the mount, costume, skin or whatever, whether you obtain the item(s) in-game or from the cash shop. Then when you earn the achievement for reaching max rank with the guild, or earn some other specific achievement tied to that NPC guild, you unlock an optional upgrade to appearance. Other appearances could be unlocked for additional existing achievements that take some commitment to earn. ZOS can expand activities and achievements for PvE NPC Guilds where needed to give players more to strive for/unlock. It can extend beyond AvA and NPC Guilds. These could even be tied to master crafting and crafting achievements with existing or new outfits, or pets, or mounts, or skins, etc.

Summary of reasoning: The idea is to:

- make Crown Store rewards more accessible to all players by letting people convert any log-in reward to Crown Gems and allowing earned Crown Crates to be giftable
- increase the value of a sub/staying subbed to keep up with the new Crown Store reality through a revived and revised reward system
- emphasize *playing the game* and working toward achievements that will amplify the value of items like mounts, outfits, skins, pets etc. so that there are a greater number of visible signs for player accomplishments (that aren't all super-hard to obtain but still require effort beyond being a wallet-hero) while increasing the potential value of many cash shop items

Thanks for reading.

I like your ideas, thanks for sharing your thoughts. As a sub player since Beta I agree that 1500 crowns per month is not enough. It used to be, but not anymore. Hope it will be looked at some day soon.

And thumbs up for loyalty rewards for subs!! Did we ever get anything except the tiger senche and Beta monkey?

tinythinker · May 2018

Atallanta wrote: »

And thumbs up for loyalty rewards for subs!! Did we ever get anything except the tiger senche and Beta monkey?

Ice wraith and a couple other things

http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Loyalty_Program

Stewart1874 · May 2018

@tinythinker

I also really like your ideas, I wanted to comment on two in particular:

2. Bring back loyalty rewards for subs. One example (focus on "example") is that at three months subbed, you get a bundle of crates. At six month you get a bundle plus a (mid-tier) Crown Store item. At nine months you the bundle plus a higher tier item. At twelve months you get the bundle and 50% off any single Crown Store item of your choice (bankable for nearly a year). Then the cycle resets and you start earning a three month bonus, then six month, etc. all over again. You can't get a second 50% off coupon so use it or lose it as it will be overwritten by the new one on day you earn the next twelve month bonus. As mentioned above in the introduction the Crown Store prices and selection ain't what they used to be when the 1500 Crowns per month reward was introduced, and loyalty rewards encourage players to keep their subs going year-round. That 50% off coupon means subs can grab some limited time offer that they otherwise might not be able to afford or feel comfortable spending so much real-world money on.

I agree, it was a quirky idea that rewarded long term supporters. Doing away with that removes the incentive to keep subbing when things get ***. These non-area dlc's like Dragon Bones and Falkenreath are not engaging for me personally and if I wasn't so into the game just now I'd have dumped the sub a while ago.

3. Let all Crown Crate rewards for daily log-ins and loyalty rewards be giftable. So if I get my loyalty rewards for subbing and decide I don't want or need them, I can just gift them to another player who will appreciate them. Or I can just sit on them if I am opposed to Crown Crates.

I think that the gambling element of crown crates needs to be blunted. By which I mean a mechanism must be implemented to navigate the gambling element for players who either morally object or just aren't interested in rolling the dice. Perhaps a premium could be charged or whatever, but ultimately I think not participating in gambling should always be an option, but not at the cost of missing out on 90% of new content. This isn't a 'having your cake and eating it moment'. You can pay more for the guarantee of getting what you want or alternatively have a roll of the dice and get 'lucky'. I really feel this is the halfway point we need to get to that is both fair to both sides (ZOS and its players).

Anyway, well put together post with some sensible points. ZOS needs to have a rethink of their current model and tweak it to be more consumer friendly. I think in general micro-transactions and loot boxes suffer greatly from a lack of regulation meaning developers are free to charge whatever the *** they like which is a huge problem for the consumer and the experience they are able to have within the game.

I think when all is said and done and things are made more equitable by regulators the companies who got ahead of the curve on this will be remembered for it. Reputation is a hard thing to build up and easy thing to lose but acting correctly and not just following the crowd is something that would impress players and build loyalty and respect. With ZOS's current trend I half expect a battle royale game mode to be announced

WhiteNoiseMaker · May 2018

I like most of your ideas, but I strenuously object to the idea of linking cosmetics to Alliance Skill ranks, or consequently any skill lines at all. There are PVE players who already cannot stand the idea of having to grind PVP for mechanics, likewise there are PVP players that cannot stand grinding Undaunted or Mage Guild. Cosmetics should stay cosmetic and never be linked to gameplay grinding, EVER.

Vaoh · May 2018

My main issue atm is that you can bypass the Jewelry Crafting researching grind by paying real money. It would be much more fair to at least wait one quarter before selling them.

Anyway, I wouldn’t even call it P2W. Definitely is dirty though.

tinythinker · May 2018

WhiteNoiseMaker wrote: »

I like most of your ideas, but I strenuously object to the idea of linking cosmetics to Alliance Skill ranks, or consequently any skill lines at all. There are PVE players who already cannot stand the idea of having to grind PVP for mechanics, likewise there are PVP players that cannot stand grinding Undaunted or Mage Guild. Cosmetics should stay cosmetic and never be linked to gameplay grinding, EVER.

So it's all Crown Store all the time for appearances?

We already have dyes tied to achievements. The "cosmetics" in question are reskins of things to act as in-game rewards. Rewards for playing the game. It's like getting a new (version of an) outfit or pet or mount. Players can still buy the base outfits, mounts, pets, etc. for cash or possibly acquire them as in-game rewards, they just can't unlock the new versions with cash. And if you can't stand some activity, don't do it. No one is forced to get an in-game reward.

Currently, you only have these choices for most pets, costumes, mounts, skins, etc.:

have the friends, time, and skill to try for Emperor (costume), which is beyond many players
buy DLC and complete DLC trials on vet or vet hm, which is beyond many players
buy DLC and complete DLC dungeons on vet or vet hm with challenge requirements, which is beyond many players
pony up a lot of real world cash directly in the Crown Store

I am glad there are unique skins for those doing the hardest PvE content as visible rewards, and that Emps get robes, because it is an in-game reward for actually playing the game. How many threads are there where PvP players are crying over not getting a skin for beating those PvE DLC challenges? They are missing out on those cosmetics unless they spend a lot of time learning and practicing those dungeons or trials. (Or unless they get carried through it...

)

If people want to scream because "Hey I can't get that mount (appearance) because I don't want to do X in the game" then let them. I would much rather see people being able to have a chance to earn something through regular game play than have it be practically all cash shop stuff. A few things for regular players isn't much to ask. Those players who've spent the time in AvA, even in a zerg blob, to get to Lieutenant can have a way to show it off. It isn't some ability they need for PvE, it isn't some weapon or set that they can only PvP for.

Same the other way. It's not like having to run dungeons or trials to get some armor or weapon or jewelry for PvP to be competitive. If you can't be bothered getting a Mages Guild achievement to unlock a new appearance for something, that's fine. But let's be real. These are primarily time-based rather than skill based making them open to more people. If you get enough lore books and "defeat" Sheogorath etc., you get the reward. If you do enough dungeons or trials for the Undaunted (even on easy mode), you get a reward. Get an achievement for dedication in some other part of the game (crafting, trophies, etc)? Reward. Are they going to be as cool as the stuff locked behind really hard content? Maybe not unless they take a *lot* of dedication. But here's the thing: any player can get any of these if they play a while. It's like a stealth loyalty reward.

People like to complain about grinding in MMOs, but MMOs are all grind if you just mean repetition. You repeat the same content over and over to climb some ladder. That's the nature of the beast. The question is: what do you like to repeat and which ladder entices you? The difference between "grinding" and "just playing" is whether you are having fun. Some people ran vMA over and over to get a BiS weapon, then stopped "grinding" once they got it or a better weapon came along. Some people have all the weapons but still run it over and over to compete for the leaderboards or just to enjoy it, so they are "playing". Same for people who craft and craft and craft. For some it's a grind (oh gods, not again, I hate these stations, why do I always run out of Lilmoth Hagfish so fast???). For some it's fun.

Speaking of crafting, it's tied to housing. Housing is another form of cosmetics and people already grind their eyes out to get writ vouchers for items for their homes. Or have to complete achievements in game to unlock or acquire items to place in their homes. So they can show that off when people come to visit or just because enjoy seeing it. *grind* *grind* *grind* or *fun* *fun* fun*? Subjective. But it's already in the game.

It already happens for far more consequential things than appearances, and as mentioned there are so many potential "grinds" in the game, so here is a partial list. "Grinding..."

normal writs for tempers, inspiration, achievements (includes dyes)
master writs for vouchers (--> cosmetics and functional items for housing)
vMA for weapons
dungeons & trials for armor, weapons, jewelry, skins, achievements (includes dyes)
IC for telvar and key fragments (--> jewelry, mats, etc)
daily quests for motifs
AvA for ranks, skills, motifs, Emp (includes dyes)
dolmens for XP and jewelry
public dungeons and Skyreach for XP
fishing holes for achievements (includes dyes)
monsters/monster trophies for achievements (includes dyes)
assorted other achievements such as those for NPC guilds (includes dyes)
Et alia

In all of this, then, simply saying "Hey, you managed to get an achievement for engaging in some part of the game you like for a while that now unlocks a new version/skin/appearance of a costume (mount, pet, etc.)" is again like loyalty reward. You really like X, you keep doing it, so here you go. Now people know you really like doing X. You get a reward for time spent. The only way to flip that into "whoa the grinding" is if you presume that everyone should be able to get anything quick, for a carry, or for cash. Sure, people who want a particular reskin will feel like they have to "grind" an activity they don't like, but that is their choice. Just like all the other activities in game.

ghastley · May 2018

WhiteNoiseMaker wrote: »

I like most of your ideas, but I strenuously object to the idea of linking cosmetics to Alliance Skill ranks, or consequently any skill lines at all. There are PVE players who already cannot stand the idea of having to grind PVP for mechanics, likewise there are PVP players that cannot stand grinding Undaunted or Mage Guild. Cosmetics should stay cosmetic and never be linked to gameplay grinding, EVER.

I couldn't disagree more. Some achievements require a grind to get them, and that fact's not going away. Visible "badges of achievement" are needed to let others know you've done them, assuming you want it known. Would you remove Cadwell's Helm of Heroism from the game?

Cosmetics that only signify "i can afford it" or "I was there are the right time" are the ones I feel have no place in a game. I'm uncomfortable with costumes, the way they are now, with only a limited subset available at any time, and would prefer them to be craftable, and participate in the outfit system.

tinythinker · August 2018

tinythinker wrote: »

...

ESO Plus does give 1500 Crowns per month, yet, the costs of items, the selection of items, and the range of items has greatly increased since that reward was set up. So now there will be daily log-in items which can include Crown Crates. I'm not going to litigate the Crown Crate issue here. There have been and still are tons of threads on that topic. Please join or start a new thread on that rather than argue about them here.

...

2. Bring back loyalty rewards for subs. One example (focus on "example") is that at three months subbed, you get a bundle of crates. At six month you get a bundle plus a (mid-tier) Crown Store item. At nine months you the bundle plus a higher tier item. At twelve months you get the bundle and 50% off any single Crown Store item of your choice (bankable for nearly a year). Then the cycle resets and you start earning a three month bonus, then six month, etc. all over again. You can't get a second 50% off coupon so use it or lose it as it will be overwritten by the new one on day you earn the next twelve month bonus. As mentioned above in the introduction the Crown Store prices and selection ain't what they used to be when the 1500 Crowns per month reward was introduced, and loyalty rewards encourage players to keep their subs going year-round. That 50% off coupon means subs can grab some limited time offer that they otherwise might not be able to afford or feel comfortable spending so much real-world money on.

OK, so based on QuakeCon 2018, good progress on these parts that were focused on ESO Plus.

Now for the rest of it