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They need to simplify this game.

Shraar
Shraar
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I hate how everytime I level up I'm given a choice between Magic/Health/Stam. Except it's not really a choice, it's just a trap to screw up your build. If you don't put everything in the right place, you're just wasting your points. The whole game is built around these binary choices of pure Stamina and Pure magicka. Health, I never see health, not even for tanks, so why is there even a choice? Remove this pointless step, it can only go wrong. I wish I could just commit to specializations, I don't want to have to do HOMEWORK just to play a stupid game. That sucks. Update the build advisor to not be useless, remove pointless stats and introduce specializations.

The community, including the biggest youtubers, are GARBAGE when it comes to helping new players. I search "Beginner advice" and get a 3 HOUR VIDEO, just to get started. Don't you realize how bad that makes your game look?

Remove the Magic/Health/Stam choice on level up. It's not even a choice, it's just an overly confusing opportunity for new players to screw up. And they have no way of knowing they've screwed up.
  • Itacira
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    Agree with most of your rant and I think you make a very good point about the "homework" part. Player should not have to do homework in order to be able to play a game. It's just absurd that this is the point we're at.

    I wouldn't blame the community though : other users are not responsible for the game's state, and calling people who take the time to make explanatory videos garbage is both ungrateful and very, very pointless.
    PC/EU - PVE 2H stam orc petsorc (meta, what meta?) ww - terrible dps - mediocre player - fun times - free ww bites to whomever asks so don't be shy if interested
  • Emma_Overload
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    Why don't you just play minesweeper?
    #CAREBEARMASTERRACE
  • Judas Helviaryn
    Judas Helviaryn
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    If the game feels like homework to you, then it probably isn't the game you're looking for.

    EVE felt like homework to me, which is why I stopped playing. You know why it felt like homework, and why I ultimately failed at EVE? I didn't have enough time to invest in it. ESO is far more intuitive when it comes to building, you just can't expect to learn everything there is to know about the game, and how to be self sufficient, solely from watching walkthroughs and videos.

    You have to -actually play- the game to #GitGud.
    Edited by Judas Helviaryn on August 9, 2018 3:10AM
  • Mattock_Romulus
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    Shraar wrote: »
    I hate how everytime I level up I'm given a choice between Magic/Health/Stam. Except it's not really a choice, it's just a trap to screw up your build. If you don't put everything in the right place, you're just wasting your points. The whole game is built around these binary choices of pure Stamina and Pure magicka. Health, I never see health, not even for tanks, so why is there even a choice? Remove this pointless step, it can only go wrong. I wish I could just commit to specializations, I don't want to have to do HOMEWORK just to play a stupid game. That sucks. Update the build advisor to not be useless, remove pointless stats and introduce specializations.

    The community, including the biggest youtubers, are GARBAGE when it comes to helping new players. I search "Beginner advice" and get a 3 HOUR VIDEO, just to get started. Don't you realize how bad that makes your game look?

    Remove the Magic/Health/Stam choice on level up. It's not even a choice, it's just an overly confusing opportunity for new players to screw up. And they have no way of knowing they've screwed up.

    I agree that some "choices" are very misleading and superfluous. I'm unsure if there are any builds at all that evenly distribute magic/health/stam.

    The community videos have been useful to me, however, they can be overwhelming for new players.

    Maybe they should just have us all be MageSorcs and be done with the whole illusion of choice?

    Edited by Mattock_Romulus on August 9, 2018 3:13AM
  • LordGavus
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    Yes the game is big with a lot to learn, but that's a good thing. You can't expect to learn everything thing from a short youtube video.

    When you start the game and are just overworld questing you don't need to know much. You can get away doing what ever. If the game tried to teach new players everything it would be totally overwhelming.

    Now the game could do a better job at teaching players, but calling the community that is trying to help other players garbage is not cool.

    If you want to get to vet dungeon and trial level, you're going to have to invest time to learn the game. This includes a lot of time playing the game and trial and error. An hour on youtube isn't going to do it.

    As for 'screwing up' your skills and attributes, as you learn more and refine your build just respec your points. Nothing is permanent.
  • Animal_Mother
    Animal_Mother
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    6000 gold is too much to spend to respec attributes? You should have been around at launch - $$$.
  • Sigtric
    Sigtric
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    I like how people who took time to make a video to help you understand something you seem incapable of grasping are garbage. Classy.

    Stormproof: Vibeke - 50 EP mDragonknight | Savi Dreloth - 50 EP Magsorc | Sadi Dreloth - 50 EP Magblade | Sigtric Stormaxe - 50 EP Stamsorc | Valora Dreloth - 50 EP Magplar | Sigtric the Unbearable 50 EP Stam Warden
    Scrub: Chews-on-Beavers - 50 EP DK Tank | Vera the Wild - 50 EP magicka Warden | Sigtric the Axe - 50 EP Dragonknight Crafter | Sigtric the Blade - 50 EP Lost Nightblade | Sigtric the Savage - 50 EP magicka Templar | Vibeka Shadowblade - 50 Ep Stealthy Ganky Nightblade |

    Show Me Your Dunmer
    [/center]
  • Elsonso
    Elsonso
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    Shraar wrote: »
    I hate how everytime I level up I'm given a choice between Magic/Health/Stam. Except it's not really a choice, it's just a trap to screw up your build. If you don't put everything in the right place, you're just wasting your points. The whole game is built around these binary choices of pure Stamina and Pure magicka. Health, I never see health, not even for tanks, so why is there even a choice? Remove this pointless step, it can only go wrong. I wish I could just commit to specializations, I don't want to have to do HOMEWORK just to play a stupid game. That sucks. Update the build advisor to not be useless, remove pointless stats and introduce specializations.

    Remove the Magic/Health/Stam choice on level up. It's not even a choice, it's just an overly confusing opportunity for new players to screw up. And they have no way of knowing they've screwed up.

    I don't always put all my points into Stamina or Magicka as I am leveling up, and I don't always ignore Health. I put it where I need it, not where some internet build or video tells me to put it. As my character progresses, I will respec and move the points around as needed. When it finally hits Level 50, I will respec into the final mix, which is usually all-in-one, but not always.
    XBox EU/NA:@ElsonsoJannus
    PC NA/EU: @Elsonso
    PSN NA/EU: @ElsonsoJannus
    Total in-game hours: 11321
    X/Twitter: ElsonsoJannus
  • MerlinPendragon
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    This game is not simple, nor should it be. It is deep and has something for everyone.

    ESO should not be brought down to the lowest denominator so a new player can figure it out over night. If that's what you want, then this isn't your game. It's as simple as that.
    _____________________________________
    Merlin Pendragon - Uther Pendragon - The Lady of the Lake - Sir Lancelot
  • Sheezabeast
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    What do you mean "it can only go wrong"? It encourages build diversity, it's easily changeable too. Zos even added a level up reward of a free respec scroll for your attributes....so your point is very moot.

    tenor.gif?itemid=5423662
    Grand Master Crafter, Beta baby who grew with the game. PC/NA. @Sheezabeast if you have crafting needs!
  • max_only
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    Shraar wrote: »
    I hate how everytime I level up I'm given a choice between Magic/Health/Stam. Except it's not really a choice, it's just a trap to screw up your build. If you don't put everything in the right place, you're just wasting your points. The whole game is built around these binary choices of pure Stamina and Pure magicka. Health, I never see health, not even for tanks, so why is there even a choice? Remove this pointless step, it can only go wrong. I wish I could just commit to specializations, I don't want to have to do HOMEWORK just to play a stupid game. That sucks. Update the build advisor to not be useless, remove pointless stats and introduce specializations.

    Remove the Magic/Health/Stam choice on level up. It's not even a choice, it's just an overly confusing opportunity for new players to screw up. And they have no way of knowing they've screwed up.

    I don't always put all my points into Stamina or Magicka as I am leveling up, and I don't always ignore Health. I put it where I need it, not where some internet build or video tells me to put it. As my character progresses, I will respec and move the points around as needed. When it finally hits Level 50, I will respec into the final mix, which is usually all-in-one, but not always.

    Yes.

    Also, my Warden tank has all points in health because his 2 most important skills scale by health.

    Here is a build by Liofa, a class representative who reps tanks. https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/378661/end-game-pve-warden-main-tank-build-by-liofa/p1


    So not only is the premise faulty, as others have pointed out it’s cheap and even free at least once to respec.
    Edited by max_only on August 9, 2018 3:47AM
    #FiteForYourRite Bosmer = Stealth
    #OppositeResourceSiphoningAttacks
    || CP 1000+ || PC/NA || GUILDS: LWH; IA; CH; XA
    ""All gods' creatures (you lot) are equal when covered in A1 sauce"" -- Old Bosmeri Wisdom
  • Shraar
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    If the game feels like homework to you, then it probably isn't the game you're looking for.

    EVE felt like homework to me, which is why I stopped playing. You know why it felt like homework, and why I ultimately failed at EVE? I didn't have enough time to invest in it. ESO is far more intuitive when it comes to building, you just can't expect to learn everything there is to know about the game, and how to be self sufficient, solely from watching walkthroughs and videos.

    You have to -actually play- the game to #GitGud.

    I am actually playing. That's the thing, I've played and I'm not learning.

    1. It'd be helpful to have a cursor. When I did, I want to mouse over what killed me so I know what tricks the enemies have up their sleeves. A pointless damage recap is pointless. Damage killed me, cool, I get it. Let me mouse over those abilities to see exactly what they do, how much they cost, and what other debuffs they apply so I can actually prepare myself for them next time. The damage recap is pointless.

    2. Nothing makes sense and nothing is explained and when it is explained (3 hour long homework video) it's a total mess. None of it is fun. Stop making the game so reliant on food. drinks. builds. gear sets. I hate this cookie cutter

    3. They've failed at creating the illusion of choice. Sure, you can build your character however you want, with whatever weapons you want, whatever skills, any role.. but ultimately this fails because you end up being totally useless due to your choices. Race shouldnt' matter as much as it does. Pointless stat choices that totally govern your ability and weapon power shoehorn you into cookie cutter builds that require HOURS of research to get right... and even longer to actually follow. It's ridiculous.

    It's like they forgot about the fun. Way too much complexity, they need to streamline things. I would kill for Specialization options, an updated build advisor that I as a new player can learn from.

    I want to be a tank? Then my stats will grow this way and I should pick up and unlock these core abilities.
    I want to be a ranged damager? Then my stats grow this way and I gain these new abilities that are thematic and useful.

    As it is now, I have to look up a build, make sure my stats are perfect, get the right abilities leveled and selected... like, I just want to play the game. Those steps should be handled automatically so I can get to the fun, this is stupid. I am trying to hard to play this game, by brother picked it up and then instantly dropped it, but I've been trying, now I'm venting all my frustration because I can tell this game could be so great, it just needs to slough off all this nonsense first.
  • Judas Helviaryn
    Judas Helviaryn
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    Shraar wrote: »
    If the game feels like homework to you, then it probably isn't the game you're looking for.

    EVE felt like homework to me, which is why I stopped playing. You know why it felt like homework, and why I ultimately failed at EVE? I didn't have enough time to invest in it. ESO is far more intuitive when it comes to building, you just can't expect to learn everything there is to know about the game, and how to be self sufficient, solely from watching walkthroughs and videos.

    You have to -actually play- the game to #GitGud.

    I am actually playing. That's the thing, I've played and I'm not learning.
    1. It'd be helpful to have a cursor. When I did, I want to mouse over what killed me so I know what tricks the enemies have up their sleeves. A pointless damage recap is pointless. Damage killed me, cool, I get it. Let me mouse over those abilities to see exactly what they do, how much they cost, and what other debuffs they apply so I can actually prepare myself for them next time. The damage recap is pointless.

    ESO is more actiony than most MMORPGs. You have to learn how an enemy fights by watching them, and fighting them. It's more active than having a cheat sheet stapled to everyones' heads. Did you get knocked back and destroyed by a two hander-wielding maniac? He likely hit you with an uppercut. Is your avatar running scared for his life from a mob with red and black shadow-looking magic? He got feared. You have to take your time and learn how everything works, you -have- to die, and to lose, to learn how to win.
    3. Nothing makes sense and nothing is explained and when it is explained (3 hour long homework video) it's a total mess. None of it is fun. Stop making the game so reliant on food. drinks. builds. gear sets. I hate this cookie cutter

    The food, the gear sets, gear types, the different skill permutations you can take all add up to one complex system that, while hard to balance to the nth degree (that's a good thing), is going to continue to provide replay value for far longer than some actual cookie-cutter MMOs out there. Every single variable added to the game gives you another layer of control over YOUR character, allowing you to build him or her how YOU want.

    3. They've failed at creating the illusion of choice. Sure, you can build your character however you want, with whatever weapons you want, whatever skills, any role.. but ultimately this fails because you end up being totally useless due to your choices. Race shouldnt' matter as much as it does. Pointless stat choices that totally govern your ability and weapon power shoehorn you into cookie cutter builds that require HOURS of research to get right... and even longer to actually follow. It's ridiculous.

    Anybody who plays long enough realizes that they can do more for themselves by learning to build for themselves, rather than following what some other random person on the internet calls the meta. You're seeing this system from the outside, and you're not comprehending it. All you can really do is open your mind back up, trust those of us who have been around and active since launch and beyond, and get back into the game. You need to experience it for yourself, there is no shortcut.
    It's like they forgot about the fun. Way too much complexity, they need to streamline things. I would kill for Specialization options, an updated build advisor that I as a new player can learn from.

    I want to be a tank? Then my stats will grow this way and I should pick up and unlock these core abilities.
    I want to be a ranged damager? Then my stats grow this way and I gain these new abilities that are thematic and useful.

    As it is now, I have to look up a build, make sure my stats are perfect, get the right abilities leveled and selected... like, I just want to play the game. Those steps should be handled automatically so I can get to the fun, this is stupid. I am trying to hard to play this game, by brother picked it up and then instantly dropped it, but I've been trying, now I'm venting all my frustration because I can tell this game could be so great, it just needs to slough off all this nonsense first.

    This is all part of the game. Personal growth makes the game itself more rewarding than any amount of pixel-treasure you could ever attain. Stop following, start blazing a trail.

    This isn't a theme park, you can't pop in and immediately become proficient on a whim. You have to earn it just like everyone else.
    Edited by Judas Helviaryn on August 9, 2018 4:10AM
  • Narvuntien
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    If you screw up you can easily undo it though.

    I vaguely understand that some things can be very confusing. There are things like ability scaling and crit chance which is kind of opaque.

    Then there isn't anything that properly conveyes what a rotation is and how to get good dps or whats important when tanking and healing.

    Then there is sets, there is just so many that is overwhelming, without knowing what stats are important and

    There is no explanation how some stats like physical poison and disease use weapon pen and elemental and magic use spell pen. Or... Direct, AoE and damage over time effects.

    My personal solution that tool tips need to have little with what type of damage it is whether it is direct, AoE or damage over time effects.
  • Shraar
    Shraar
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    Judas Helviaryn, you're simultaneously telling me to both trust experienced players but also trust myself. Either way I can't do either, because trusting myself results in being absolutely useless because nothing is intuitive (Want to be a tank? Make sure you DON'T put stats into HP!) and oftentimes trusting experienced players results in snotty attitutes or incomphrensible jargon.

    You know the great thing about Blizzard games, including WoW, the outdated MMO that nobody can beat a decade later? Easy to learn, hard to master. Right now, ESO is hard to learn and hard to master.

    I want to start playing. Remove these stat growths than can only go wrong and lead you astray. Nerf all these ridiculous enchants, smithing, potions, blah blah blah so that they are a trick up your sleeve if you've invested time into making them, but you won't be hopeless without them.

    Let skill decide fights instead of meta knowledge. As it is now, this is a terrible illusion of choice: Sure I can "forge my own path" but I'll be useless and hopeless. Lower the skill floor. Make this game easier to pick up. Trim away all the tedious, monotonous, boring jargon. Simplify the game, like I said I'm trying so hard to learn the game but my brother dropped it almost instantly. I can only wonder how many other people did the exact same thing. This game scares off new players.
  • Watchdog
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    @Shraar - I would wholeheartedly recommend joining some guild, preferably one that is not composed of elitists who feel too good to help you shed your training wheels.

    There are plenty to choose from and many veterans actually enjoy helping new players.
    Member of Alith Legion: https://www.alithlegion.com
  • Judas Helviaryn
    Judas Helviaryn
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    Watchdog wrote: »
    @Shraar - I would wholeheartedly recommend joining some guild, preferably one that is not composed of elitists who feel too good to help you shed your training wheels.

    There are plenty to choose from and many veterans actually enjoy helping new players.

    If people who need help act less hostile and hateful, I'm sure plenty of others on here would have no problem helping out.
    Edited by Judas Helviaryn on August 9, 2018 4:46AM
  • Reverb
    Reverb
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    The game should not be dumbed down any more than it already has been. The best way to learn to play the game is to actually play the game. The best way to shortcut that is to engage in the social component and develop a network of friends and guilds to provide guidance.

    It's an an a MMORPG, not a mobile game.
    Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you. ~Friedrich Nietzsche
  • Smitch_59
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    Narvuntien wrote: »
    If you screw up you can easily undo it though.

    I vaguely understand that some things can be very confusing. There are things like ability scaling and crit chance which is kind of opaque.

    Then there isn't anything that properly conveyes what a rotation is and how to get good dps or whats important when tanking and healing.

    Then there is sets, there is just so many that is overwhelming, without knowing what stats are important and

    There is no explanation how some stats like physical poison and disease use weapon pen and elemental and magic use spell pen. Or... Direct, AoE and damage over time effects.

    My personal solution that tool tips need to have little with what type of damage it is whether it is direct, AoE or damage over time effects.

    I completely agree with this. Far too many elements of the game are simply not explained, so players are left having to figure it out for themselves. For example, I played for a long time before I learned that NPC attacks don't crit, while I was uselessly wearing impen armor for PvE. Simple things like this could have easily been explained in a tutorial or something.
    By Azura, by Azura, by Azura!
  • Kel
    Kel
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    Shraar wrote: »

    You know the great thing about Blizzard games, including WoW, the outdated MMO that nobody can beat a decade later?

    Ah..there it is.
    The truth behind the rant.
    I played WoW from Burning Crusade right up until the end of Legion.
    This game was far, far easier to get into then WoW.
    Everything you've said about ESO has also been said about WoW many times over...and a garbage community? It doesn't get as toxic as WoW. If ESO is garbage, WoW's community is a sewer.
    If you can't handle ESO, I doubt you were any good in WoW. This game is far more new player friendly than most mmo's I've played.
    Edited by Kel on August 9, 2018 4:50AM
  • BigBragg
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    I really hope they don't ever simplify the game and remove choices. There are hundred of videos and various websites that explain things, on top of tooltips to read and other players to engage. It takes time to learn, there and many nuanced layered to the game, and I relish in that aspect. Removing that would be greatly disappointing to me.
  • Starlock
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    You can play the game and enjoy it without understanding all of the mechanics. It’s only as hard as you choose to make it. If you choose not to give two flips about being a min-maxing meta sheep or competitive gamer, you really can play how you want. That’s one of the strengths of this game. It’ll only stress you out if you let your own expectations do that to you (though in some cases, peer pressure can cause the same issue).

    That said, there are certainly things I found troublesome as a new player back in the VR days. Ironically, it was oversimplification that was my issue... haha. On the tooltips, specifically. In a way, I think your gripes are related to that. It isn’t really clear that mag/stam affect damage (though we now have the advisor to tell us this), for example. How CP affect various abilities is about as transparent as mud. There is still more choice there than I think is being granted, but the nature of those choices is not always straightforward.
  • SupremeRissole
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    [removed quote]

    This game is more beginner friendly than it ever has been. Ive only played for about two years now but before my time I know you couldnt just wander anywhere and fight any enemy, now everything scales down to your level. Now you have xp scrolls given to you just for logging in. Now you have a build adviser, which granted may not be the best, but its better than nothing like I had. Yes I agree the game is very complex, but as a new player you dont need to do homework and worry about things like diminishing returns and damage mitigation, just play the game, do some quests, meet some guildies, MAKE MISTAKES. Later down the track when you want to do the hard stuff you'll already enjoy the game enough that it wont feel like a chore to do your homework.
    Edited by ZOS_JesC on August 9, 2018 1:48PM
  • Smitch_59
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    BigBragg wrote: »
    I really hope they don't ever simplify the game and remove choices. There are hundred of videos and various websites that explain things, on top of tooltips to read and other players to engage. It takes time to learn, there and many nuanced layered to the game, and I relish in that aspect. Removing that would be greatly disappointing to me.

    I don't think they should remove these choices, only that the ramifications of these choices should be better explained in-game, either via tooltips or tutorials. I'd much rather have such guidance in-game instead of having to sift through hundreds of videos and websites, many of which are of questionable value. So rather than simplifying the game, I wish they would simplify learning the game.
    By Azura, by Azura, by Azura!
  • Nova Sky
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    I hear Fortnite is popular, OP. And simple, too!
    "Wheresoever you go, go with all of your heart."
  • Bakkagami
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    Shraar wrote: »
    If the game feels like homework to you, then it probably isn't the game you're looking for.

    EVE felt like homework to me, which is why I stopped playing. You know why it felt like homework, and why I ultimately failed at EVE? I didn't have enough time to invest in it. ESO is far more intuitive when it comes to building, you just can't expect to learn everything there is to know about the game, and how to be self sufficient, solely from watching walkthroughs and videos.

    You have to -actually play- the game to #GitGud.

    I am actually playing. That's the thing, I've played and I'm not learning.

    1. It'd be helpful to have a cursor. When I did, I want to mouse over what killed me so I know what tricks the enemies have up their sleeves. A pointless damage recap is pointless. Damage killed me, cool, I get it. Let me mouse over those abilities to see exactly what they do, how much they cost, and what other debuffs they apply so I can actually prepare myself for them next time. The damage recap is pointless.

    2. Nothing makes sense and nothing is explained and when it is explained (3 hour long homework video) it's a total mess. None of it is fun. Stop making the game so reliant on food. drinks. builds. gear sets. I hate this cookie cutter

    3. They've failed at creating the illusion of choice. Sure, you can build your character however you want, with whatever weapons you want, whatever skills, any role.. but ultimately this fails because you end up being totally useless due to your choices. Race shouldnt' matter as much as it does. Pointless stat choices that totally govern your ability and weapon power shoehorn you into cookie cutter builds that require HOURS of research to get right... and even longer to actually follow. It's ridiculous.

    It's like they forgot about the fun. Way too much complexity, they need to streamline things. I would kill for Specialization options, an updated build advisor that I as a new player can learn from.

    I want to be a tank? Then my stats will grow this way and I should pick up and unlock these core abilities.
    I want to be a ranged damager? Then my stats grow this way and I gain these new abilities that are thematic and useful.

    As it is now, I have to look up a build, make sure my stats are perfect, get the right abilities leveled and selected... like, I just want to play the game. Those steps should be handled automatically so I can get to the fun, this is stupid. I am trying to hard to play this game, by brother picked it up and then instantly dropped it, but I've been trying, now I'm venting all my frustration because I can tell this game could be so great, it just needs to slough off all this nonsense first.

    I think the game does a decent job of explaining most basic combat mechanics. More advanced techniques/builds aren't really the developers job to teach as the player is expected to learn a thing or two as they gain some experience over time (commonly referred to as learning to play). That being said, the game at its core isn't awfully complex, compared to most other comparable mmos such as WOW, FFXIV, GW2. If you choose to dive into the deep end and try to jump into endgame without learning as you go, of course it will seem a lot more complex. It would be like learning Physics without mastering basic maths.

    Regarding your 3rd point in particular. Choice is there, and frankly it isn't illusionary, you can choose to play whatever role you want, you will be able to complete most if not all open world content naked if you so desire and have an understanding of how to fight. Build choice really comes into play when you want to excel at content that is tougher or jump into pvp.

    That being said, This is NOT a sandbox, and at no point do they market themselves as such. Rather it is an mmorpg, character choices will have consequences and rewards, and not all choices will be equal. That is in the nature of an RPG as some people seem to forget. Judging from your post, i would recommend moving to Minecraft or Terraria, both are Sandboxes and would seem to cater to your preferences.
  • TempPlayer
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    Yes, they should simplify this game to a point that you can play with a Atari CX40 controller alone. Just a joystick and single button.

    And all the information you need to know should be printed in a miniature 10 pages black and white pamflet with a over illustrated color cover that doesn't remotely resemblance the actual game graphic.

    Oh, and they have to rename the game to E.T., aka, the Elder Troll.
    Edited by TempPlayer on August 9, 2018 5:36AM
  • Runs
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    The choices gives you a chance to learn on your own. You don't need pure stam or pure mag not even close, not while you are leveling. The battle leveling system will carry you. After 50 it may be a different ball game but by then you should have learned a few things along the way and have enough gold to respec into something better.
    Runs| Orc NightbladeChim-el Adabal| Dunmer TemplarM'air the Honest| Khajiit Templar
    Oddity| Altmer SorcerorDrizlo| Orc DragonKnightLady Ra Gada| Redguard Sorceror
    Taste-of-Hist-Sap| Argonian NightbladeWar'den Peace| Khajiit WardenLittle Warden Annie Altmer Warden
    Ports with Blood| Breton TemplarDirty-Old-Man| Dunmer DragonKnightEyes-of-the-Sun| Argonian DragonKnight
    Bleak Mystique| Nord WardenPolychronopolous| Imperial SorcerorBullcrit| Khajiit Nightblade
    PC NA CP 1250+ and still a noob
    At Writs End - A place to complete master writs
  • starkerealm
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    Shraar wrote: »
    3. They've failed at creating the illusion of choice. Sure, you can build your character however you want, with whatever weapons you want, whatever skills, any role.. but ultimately this fails because you end up being totally useless due to your choices. Race shouldnt' matter as much as it does. Pointless stat choices that totally govern your ability and weapon power shoehorn you into cookie cutter builds that require HOURS of research to get right... and even longer to actually follow. It's ridiculous.

    Anybody who plays long enough realizes that they can do more for themselves by learning to build for themselves, rather than following what some other random person on the internet calls the meta. You're seeing this system from the outside, and you're not comprehending it. All you can really do is open your mind back up, trust those of us who have been around and active since launch and beyond, and get back into the game. You need to experience it for yourself, there is no shortcut.

    Yeah, I've got to second this. And as someone who is partially responsible for the stuff you consider meta, and knows some of the guys who make the builds you think of as meta, I've got to say, there's way more flexibility than you seem to realize.

    Most of the people who legitimately know what they're doing, including people like @Alcast and @xynode will provide you with options. "Pick from this list of sets." And, then someone will come along, read that, and tell you, "no, this one is BIS." That game of telephone creates the illusion of constricting cookie cutters that the game does not have.

    Trust me.

    My builds are weird. Really ****ing weird sometimes. And they work very well.

    You have things your characters need. You need some health, or you'll get oneshot in endgame content. You need some damage. How you get there is up to you.

    I mean that. There are a lot of tools in front of you. Most of them have specific uses. Figuring out what a set is good for, like, where it really excels, is the first step. If someone tells you, "no, you need to be meta," they don't know what they're talking about.

    If they tell you, "this is best in slot," they are wrong. No question. There are tools for the build you decide on that will work best. But there is no single, "best in slot," for anything in this game. There are options. Learn how to use them together.

    People like @Alcast, @xynode, and @woeler can get you started. They can suggest where to look. But, if someone is telling you, "use this, and only this," that's probably not good advice.

    Also, and this is a personal bugbear, but race doesn't matter as much as a lot of people seem to think. It can help, and if you're trying to minmax, it can be very useful. But for a lot of applications, you'll get utility value from "non-meta" racial choices. It's about knowing what to pick.
    Edited by starkerealm on August 9, 2018 6:10AM
  • BigBragg
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    Smitch_59 wrote: »
    BigBragg wrote: »
    I really hope they don't ever simplify the game and remove choices. There are hundred of videos and various websites that explain things, on top of tooltips to read and other players to engage. It takes time to learn, there and many nuanced layered to the game, and I relish in that aspect. Removing that would be greatly disappointing to me.

    I don't think they should remove these choices, only that the ramifications of these choices should be better explained in-game, either via tooltips or tutorials. I'd much rather have such guidance in-game instead of having to sift through hundreds of videos and websites, many of which are of questionable value. So rather than simplifying the game, I wish they would simplify learning the game.

    I suppose that is a solid enough notion, but I can think of any game with a deep combat system that doesn't benefit from external sources of information.
This discussion has been closed.