Please Reconsider Rune Cage
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Feanor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭DuskMarine wrote: »DuskMarine wrote: »
That's an isolated event if it did happen that way. That's not its normal behavior.
isolated event when you have 100s of players that i know for a fact are having the same issues with it. my whole pvp guild complains about it ingame. im just one of the few who actually take a chance on here even through all the flaming people get for talking about how busted sorcs are. if your in a fight with any number of sorcs your gonna get rune cage chained. you wont stand a true chance with rune cage in its current state.
You know, from the way you state things: My guess is you don’t even have a Sorc (much less main it), and you are not in a PvP guild that’s totally complaining about Sorcs either. The talk about Rune Cage chain CC is completely wrong. You can’t even cast it on a CC immune opponent.Main characters: Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 50 - Flawless Conqueror (PC EU)Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)Other characters:Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial NecromancerFearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDKValirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBladeTuruna - AD Altmer magBladeKheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDKKibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - StormproofYavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWardenAzog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWardenVidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDKMarquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - StormproofRawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWardenTu'waccah - AD Redguard StamplarAll chars 50 @ CP 1900+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on PC EU.4 -
bardx86✭✭✭✭✭
✭DuskMarine wrote: »DuskMarine wrote: »
That's an isolated event if it did happen that way. That's not its normal behavior.
isolated event when you have 100s of players that i know for a fact are having the same issues with it. my whole pvp guild complains about it ingame. im just one of the few who actually take a chance on here even through all the flaming people get for talking about how busted sorcs are. if your in a fight with any number of sorcs your gonna get rune cage chained. you wont stand a true chance with rune cage in its current state.
You know, from the way you state things: My guess is you don’t even have a Sorc (much less main it), and you are not in a PvP guild that’s totally complaining about Sorcs either. The talk about Rune Cage chain CC is completely wrong. You can’t even cast it on a CC immune opponent.
Well I guess I should have taken the under. They are already complaining about shields now that cage is nerfed. Didn't take long.Edited by bardx86 on August 7, 2018 6:51PM3 -
DuskMarine✭✭✭✭✭
✭DuskMarine wrote: »DuskMarine wrote: »
That's an isolated event if it did happen that way. That's not its normal behavior.
isolated event when you have 100s of players that i know for a fact are having the same issues with it. my whole pvp guild complains about it ingame. im just one of the few who actually take a chance on here even through all the flaming people get for talking about how busted sorcs are. if your in a fight with any number of sorcs your gonna get rune cage chained. you wont stand a true chance with rune cage in its current state.
You know, from the way you state things: My guess is you don’t even have a Sorc (much less main it), and you are not in a PvP guild that’s totally complaining about Sorcs either. The talk about Rune Cage chain CC is completely wrong. You can’t even cast it on a CC immune opponent.
really funny thing that cause cc immunity surely doesnt work on it. and thats been getting reported about forever and nobody can deny that. its been getting fought about since it became a major thing. and yes i do main a sorc. and hmm pretty funny how ingame people complaining is alot different than on here cause alot of people do it. these forums are maybe 1% of the population of the game. but they dont come on here cause of how toxic and useless it is to get your experiences truly heard on here cause nobody wants to lose their op class to balance.0 -
Valrien✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭@DuskMarine making a fool of himself. Nothing to see hereValrien Dravic -- Level 50 Dunmeri Sorcerer (EP)
Garahel Dravic -- Level 50 Bosmeri Nightblade (EP)Tamriel Unlimited was a mistake. One Tamriel was a bigger mistake2 -
Galarthor✭✭✭✭✭
✭Also these "stamina abilities" (I'm assuming you refer to dodge roll/block, since Warlord hasn't reduced the cost of actual stamina abilities since Morrowind) are also available to magicka builds, and you should use them as much as possible.
And what do you know... the armor traits reducing the cost of those "stamina abilities" are also available to magicka builds.
Yes they are. And they are benefitting both magicka and stamina builds equally.
Sure there is some benefit to putting CPs into Dodge Roll cost reduction as a magicka player, but the benefits of doing so as a stamina player are far greater. Same is true for the Well-fitted armor trait. If you as magicka wanted the same benefits as a stamina player you would pretty much have to use a stamina build ... which makes it really great for magicka builds.Are damage shields available to stamina builds? Should I be complaining about that? It's not like I have a CP to make dodge roll mitigate more abilities, or increase block effectiveness.
I hope you realize how nonsensical your whole argument is. If CP is such a huge problem to you, go play in noCP.
Your argument is the nonsensical one! CP are increasing the effectivness of an abilities features - that is, it increases the parameters. It does not add new features. What you are asking for, however, is adding new features to dodge and block. That's like asking that shields should also heal in CP environment or cloak also shield. If this seriously flawed comparision is really the best argument that you can come up with, then we are really done here ...You have the best *** counters in the entire game against dodge rollers (stamblades in particular). Both Streak & Curse are 100% undodgeable & uncloakable and easily outpressure Vigor heals. A dodge roller is pretty much forced to spam those dodge rolls (and eventually run out of stamina/health) vs a Sorc because even one undodged Reach can terminate a medium armor player.
It really amazing how stamblades die like flies as soon as a sorcs shows up on the battle fields and throws around his curse that deals 3k to 5k damage every 3.5 sec ... I don't know how thousands of sorcs could have missed that for so many years.
I knew that skill was good for something and not just deco in our skill books. Rejoice fellow sorcs, the rule of the stamblades is over. We just have to slot and use Curse.
And Streak? Seriously? That thing that stuns the sorc more than the actual target? That thing that has sorcs turn their backs towards the enemy? That thing that increases in cost faster than dodge roll and which cost CANNOT be reduced? That thing that is so clunky to use that you will almost certainly miss the NB running circles around you? That thing that is slower than the NB running?So yeah, I'd go read up on what "double standard" actually means since you actually display a perfect example of it in your post: "it's ok I can counter dodge roller's burst with dmg shields, but it's not ok they can counter my burst with dodge roll"
There is nothing wronmg with dodge negating the damage, BUT:
1) There needs to be counterplay to dodge b/c you can still pretty much rofl on forever, especially as a NB if you throw in the occassional cloak.
2) There shouldnt be such blatant favoritism in the CP and armor trait system.
3) Dodge and Shields - in fact all mitigation tools - should behave the same in laggy situations. Either all ignore lag or none do.
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Didgerion✭✭✭✭✭
✭You're wrong, the fact that it was undodgeable was the issue. The issue was that this move allowed no counterplay. Now there is thankfully. Now you'll actually have to outplay your opponent to win rather than have victory handed to you.
..and they will...or they will try at least...most probably sorcs will have to go back to down-breaker ultimate...
This physical ultimate will be bis for magica sorcerer...feels odd don't you think?
Again down-breaker will be a viable option on mag sorcs .. the problem is that stamina builds can use similar combos around down-breaker but much more efficiently.
My guess is that solo mag-sorcs will vanish slowly from pvp - as there is no viable option to counter stamina players now, also there is no viable option to counter reflect builds ... and it is still really painful to keep yourself mobile in this root and snare meta.
Edited by Didgerion on August 7, 2018 8:15PM1 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Also these "stamina abilities" (I'm assuming you refer to dodge roll/block, since Warlord hasn't reduced the cost of actual stamina abilities since Morrowind) are also available to magicka builds, and you should use them as much as possible.
And what do you know... the armor traits reducing the cost of those "stamina abilities" are also available to magicka builds.
Yes they are. And they are benefitting both magicka and stamina builds equally.
Sure there is some benefit to putting CPs into Dodge Roll cost reduction as a magicka player, but the benefits of doing so as a stamina player are far greater. Same is true for the Well-fitted armor trait. If you as magicka wanted the same benefits as a stamina player you would pretty much have to use a stamina build ... which makes it really great for magicka builds.
Actually you can make dodge roll more cost efficient than most stamina builds by going 7x Well-Fitted (35% dodge roll cost reduction vs max. 21% from medium armor) - and you won't even have to feel bad about it (Impen mitigates very little damage compared to stam builds that can at all times take crit damage).
No need to use a "stamina build", just gotta theorycraft a little (there's lots of good sets to help sustain stamina, Engine Guardian for example).
No amount of theorycrafting will make dmg shields worth slotting (because you do actually have to spend a skill slot for one) for a stamina build.Are damage shields available to stamina builds? Should I be complaining about that? It's not like I have a CP to make dodge roll mitigate more abilities, or increase block effectiveness.
I hope you realize how nonsensical your whole argument is. If CP is such a huge problem to you, go play in noCP.
Your argument is the nonsensical one! CP are increasing the effectivness of an abilities features - that is, it increases the parameters. It does not add new features. What you are asking for, however, is adding new features to dodge and block. That's like asking that shields should also heal in CP environment or cloak also shield. If this seriously flawed comparision is really the best argument that you can come up with, then we are really done here ...
There actually is a damage shield that also heals in any environment: Healing Ward. No idea why you're bringing up cloak though.
There is also a CP passive that increases the strength of damage shields and since we're arguing about pointless stuff please do point me out the CP passive that increases the amount of damage block mitigates.
Clearly the CP system is favouring magicka builds by letting them scale their primary defense higher. /s
Again, if CP system supposedly makes your magicka build weaker, go play in noCP.
Funny enough I find my stamina builds to perform better in noCP (without sprint/dodge roll/block cost reducing passives).You have the best *** counters in the entire game against dodge rollers (stamblades in particular). Both Streak & Curse are 100% undodgeable & uncloakable and easily outpressure Vigor heals. A dodge roller is pretty much forced to spam those dodge rolls (and eventually run out of stamina/health) vs a Sorc because even one undodged Reach can terminate a medium armor player.
It really amazing how stamblades die like flies as soon as a sorcs shows up on the battle fields and throws around his curse that deals 3k to 5k damage every 3.5 sec ... I don't know how thousands of sorcs could have missed that for so many years.
I knew that skill was good for something and not just deco in our skill books. Rejoice fellow sorcs, the rule of the stamblades is over. We just have to slot and use Curse.
And Streak? Seriously? That thing that stuns the sorc more than the actual target? That thing that has sorcs turn their backs towards the enemy? That thing that increases in cost faster than dodge roll and which cost CANNOT be reduced? That thing that is so clunky to use that you will almost certainly miss the NB running circles around you? That thing that is slower than the NB running?
Sounds like those issues are mostly on your part. You can go on youtube & find videos from 2014-present where magicka sorcerers destroy medium armor dodge rollers (those tend to be easiest builds to kill almost no matter which class/build though).
You make it sound like those squishy dodge rollers are some unkillable monsters, how do you imagine I kill them on my own melee stamblade (zero undodgeable abilities)? Literally the easiest kills in Cyrodiil, if I see someone spamming snipe or dodge rolling I know I'm in for some free AP. With zero undodgeable abilities. No Curse, no Streak, not even Sloads or Bleeds to deal damage to them.
Medium armor is weak. Dodge roll based builds are weak.
That's just how it, how it has been for over a year (ever since proc set nerfs). That's why every PTS you find a "buff medium armor" thread on the forums.So yeah, I'd go read up on what "double standard" actually means since you actually display a perfect example of it in your post: "it's ok I can counter dodge roller's burst with dmg shields, but it's not ok they can counter my burst with dodge roll"
There is nothing wronmg with dodge negating the damage, BUT:
1) There needs to be counterplay to dodge b/c you can still pretty much rofl on forever, especially as a NB if you throw in the occassional cloak.
2) There shouldnt be such blatant favoritism in the CP and armor trait system.
3) Dodge and Shields - in fact all mitigation tools - should behave the same in laggy situations. Either all ignore lag or none do.
There is counterplay to dodge roll: undodgeable damage (duh) as well as catching them off guard with CC+burst (requires some skill) or running them out of stamina because no, unlimited stamina doesn't exist and the more someone can dodge roll the less dangerous their damage is.
I'm not going to tell you "l2p", but I am going to suggest you learn to counter those builds. Others have.
...this whole thing reminds me of when they made Power Lash dodgeable and mDKs would QQ about no longer being able to kill dodge rollers (builds that were and still are easiest to kill for them). How many "dodge roll is op" posts from mDKs do you see these days?Edited by DDuke on August 7, 2018 8:39PM3 -
Ragnaroek93✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Also these "stamina abilities" (I'm assuming you refer to dodge roll/block, since Warlord hasn't reduced the cost of actual stamina abilities since Morrowind) are also available to magicka builds, and you should use them as much as possible.
And what do you know... the armor traits reducing the cost of those "stamina abilities" are also available to magicka builds.
Yes they are. And they are benefitting both magicka and stamina builds equally.
Sure there is some benefit to putting CPs into Dodge Roll cost reduction as a magicka player, but the benefits of doing so as a stamina player are far greater. Same is true for the Well-fitted armor trait. If you as magicka wanted the same benefits as a stamina player you would pretty much have to use a stamina build ... which makes it really great for magicka builds.Are damage shields available to stamina builds? Should I be complaining about that? It's not like I have a CP to make dodge roll mitigate more abilities, or increase block effectiveness.
I hope you realize how nonsensical your whole argument is. If CP is such a huge problem to you, go play in noCP.
Your argument is the nonsensical one! CP are increasing the effectivness of an abilities features - that is, it increases the parameters. It does not add new features. What you are asking for, however, is adding new features to dodge and block. That's like asking that shields should also heal in CP environment or cloak also shield. If this seriously flawed comparision is really the best argument that you can come up with, then we are really done here ...You have the best *** counters in the entire game against dodge rollers (stamblades in particular). Both Streak & Curse are 100% undodgeable & uncloakable and easily outpressure Vigor heals. A dodge roller is pretty much forced to spam those dodge rolls (and eventually run out of stamina/health) vs a Sorc because even one undodged Reach can terminate a medium armor player.
It really amazing how stamblades die like flies as soon as a sorcs shows up on the battle fields and throws around his curse that deals 3k to 5k damage every 3.5 sec ... I don't know how thousands of sorcs could have missed that for so many years.
I knew that skill was good for something and not just deco in our skill books. Rejoice fellow sorcs, the rule of the stamblades is over. We just have to slot and use Curse.
And Streak? Seriously? That thing that stuns the sorc more than the actual target? That thing that has sorcs turn their backs towards the enemy? That thing that increases in cost faster than dodge roll and which cost CANNOT be reduced? That thing that is so clunky to use that you will almost certainly miss the NB running circles around you? That thing that is slower than the NB running?So yeah, I'd go read up on what "double standard" actually means since you actually display a perfect example of it in your post: "it's ok I can counter dodge roller's burst with dmg shields, but it's not ok they can counter my burst with dodge roll"
There is nothing wronmg with dodge negating the damage, BUT:
1) There needs to be counterplay to dodge b/c you can still pretty much rofl on forever, especially as a NB if you throw in the occassional cloak.
2) There shouldnt be such blatant favoritism in the CP and armor trait system.
3) Dodge and Shields - in fact all mitigation tools - should behave the same in laggy situations. Either all ignore lag or none do.
In other words, you want sorcs to be able to play a draw against almost everything while having something to kill other classes without putting much effort into it.So yeah, I'd go read up on what "double standard" actually means since you actually display a perfect example of it in your post: "it's ok I can counter dodge roller's burst with dmg shields, but it's not ok they can counter my burst with dodge roll"
This nails it. His post is basically: I hate dodgerollers and because of that I want to be able to delete them by pressing one button instead of putting effort into the game.
I'm not a fan of these sorc nerfs either, nor am I happy about them. But I also disagree with all the nonsense which the sorc community comes up every day (some highlights are: "Magdens have 100k shields", "dodgeroll is still op", "frags needs to stun and to hit as hard as Assassins Will", "sorc only gets nerfed because of nightblades", "petsorcs are easy to counter in duels"). If you lose to a dodgeroll build which isn't a nightblade than you have to get better. If anything, you should complain about Cloak, not about dodgeroll and if you nerf Cloak you would have to buff medium armor in some ways. At least try to be objective.I used to think that PvP was a tragedy, but now I realize, it's a comedy.3 -
Galarthor✭✭✭✭✭
✭Ragnaroek93 wrote: »In other words, you want sorcs to be able to play a draw against almost everything while having something to kill other classes without putting much effort into it.
That's what you as a Stamblade are asking for. You want to be able to dodge almost all of the Sorcs damage and what little gets through is healed away. The only thing dangerous about the sorc is if he can land the full rotation. A sorc won't wear you down over time like a DK for example. Sorcs have always struggled against the perma dodgers. Now that they finally had a tool to deal with perma dodgers it got taken away.
NBs want undodgeable and unblockable Stuns themselves, but are upset if other classes have them too. And Stamblades can hit just as hard as sorcs can. It's not like you guys are slowly killing your targets over time.
[/quote]Ragnaroek93 wrote: »This nails it. His post is basically: I hate dodgerollers and because of that I want to be able to delete them by pressing one button instead of putting effort into the game.
So me pointing out obivous double standards makes me a NB hater. But you defending them makes you the class balance champion. Sound logic.Ragnaroek93 wrote: »I'm not a fan of these sorc nerfs either, nor am I happy about them. But I also disagree with all the nonsense which the sorc community comes up every day (some highlights are: "Magdens have 100k shields", "dodgeroll is still op", "frags needs to stun and to hit as hard as Assassins Will", "sorc only gets nerfed because of nightblades", "petsorcs are easy to counter in duels"). If you lose to a dodgeroll build which isn't a nightblade than you have to get better. If anything, you should complain about Cloak, not about dodgeroll and if you nerf Cloak you would have to buff medium armor in some ways. At least try to be objective.
I am not argueing against the dodge roll mechanic, I am argueing against it receiving preferential treatment in that it get's its cost reduced by CP and Armor traits and is designed in a way that allows it to remain fully functional in laggy situations while other mitigation tools are not. And I am argueing that given how cheap and powerful dodge roll is, that builds dealing primarily single target direct damage, which is dodgeable, need a counter to deal with it.
But you NBs are all like: "Nah ... that would be OP, a counter against our abilities", while having a counter against your opponents abilities. A counter that doesnt require a skill slot, has 100% effectiveness, is 1 of only 3 tools (all of which are stamina btw) that still gets a cost reduction after morrowind and a stun that goes through dodge and block AND adds minor Maim and a 50% slow ... THAT'S A DOUBLE STANDARD.
And I am not complaining about other dodge roll builds. Perma Dodging is design for NBs. Anybody else benefitting from it is pure collateral.
I actually layed out a good way how to change Rune Cage to allow sorcs to deal with the Heavy Armor block meta and the perma dodgers WHILE AT THE SAME TIME OFFERING A COUNTER by making it blockable. This change can even be applied to all stuns that are similar in concept to Rune Cage. While this would solve all our issues, it would not give stamNBs an unfair advantage and that's why Stamblades don't like it.2 -
TheValar85✭✭✭✭✭You're wrong, the fact that it was undodgeable was the issue. The issue was that this move allowed no counterplay. Now there is thankfully. Now you'll actually have to outplay your opponent to win rather than have victory handed to you.
you do know that there are a *** ton of meles who can do the same? bascikly no one can dodge roll out of thieir stunns or even break free? what about those issues hm? meles can get out of stunns but rangeds cant cc in teh same way? thats a bit unfair dont you think? not to mention how many sorc skills were nerfed before even they werent even over proformed but yet the constant qq against the sorcerers classes lead the class to edge of full destruction. thats not how you fix things in a game like this, this is how they ruins tjhings in this game. a litle logical skill ussage is requiered in these matters to finde a solution that wont kill other classes from @ZOS and the most of the qq plebs are it seems a luxury thing that they cant afford to have.Edited by TheValar85 on August 8, 2018 4:24AMGM Of The Lusty Argonian ERPGM Of THe Alessia Dynasty PVP GuildGM Of The Guardians Of MiddleEarthMy Smiling Emperor Profile Picture: https://ibb.co/bsOM6n0 -
TheValar85✭✭✭✭✭
oh boy tell me more about those counters i wanna hear them all again. Gotta love how sorcs try to justify they are the shittiest class of all
yeh I know its still kinda free compared to will. This is the problem of you sorcs...you think you have an extremely hard time achiving burst but in reality for ppl who played anything else than mag sorc playing sorc is ez pz.
yeh i still find it more skillful since you actually have to do something for that will (5 light attack) not just wait for your c frag to proc in your hands twice in 3 seconds for free.Oooh I couldnt wait to see the tears of sorcs when they come to realize that now they actually have to learn to play abit...its still not fully needed since they can still shieldstack like scrubs but at least they wont run around with delayed dmg plus unavoidable cc...I didnt think I will ever witness sorcs begging since they have such a big face when they win u with curse fury meteor rune cage c frag and they claim it was pure skill but here it is....keep em coming gotta love sorc tears.
True. Waiting for a Will proc while your sets proc the rest of the damage is way more skilled.
You...you do know how Frags works...right?
How is Frags free compared to Will?
If anything, isn't Will free compared to Frags? Since Light Attacks cost nothing and you have to spend MP to get a Frags proc?
And you're right, the burst isn't hard to pull off, but it also isn't hard to counter. That's mainly what people complain about regarding how Sorc isn't OP...it has an insane number of counters.
:D
You can read any recent thread and see them. I'm not going to repeat them again when all you're going to do is not understand them and then pull evidence from nowhere about how Sorcs can get 100k Magicka and 50k shields
thats not true. no one can do that maybe in opsoite way but thats not easy. 50 magicka posible 100k shiled not realy GM Of The Lusty Argonian ERPGM Of THe Alessia Dynasty PVP GuildGM Of The Guardians Of MiddleEarthMy Smiling Emperor Profile Picture: https://ibb.co/bsOM6n0 -
Valrien✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭TheValar85 wrote: »
oh boy tell me more about those counters i wanna hear them all again. Gotta love how sorcs try to justify they are the shittiest class of all
yeh I know its still kinda free compared to will. This is the problem of you sorcs...you think you have an extremely hard time achiving burst but in reality for ppl who played anything else than mag sorc playing sorc is ez pz.
yeh i still find it more skillful since you actually have to do something for that will (5 light attack) not just wait for your c frag to proc in your hands twice in 3 seconds for free.Oooh I couldnt wait to see the tears of sorcs when they come to realize that now they actually have to learn to play abit...its still not fully needed since they can still shieldstack like scrubs but at least they wont run around with delayed dmg plus unavoidable cc...I didnt think I will ever witness sorcs begging since they have such a big face when they win u with curse fury meteor rune cage c frag and they claim it was pure skill but here it is....keep em coming gotta love sorc tears.
True. Waiting for a Will proc while your sets proc the rest of the damage is way more skilled.
You...you do know how Frags works...right?
How is Frags free compared to Will?
If anything, isn't Will free compared to Frags? Since Light Attacks cost nothing and you have to spend MP to get a Frags proc?
And you're right, the burst isn't hard to pull off, but it also isn't hard to counter. That's mainly what people complain about regarding how Sorc isn't OP...it has an insane number of counters.:D
You can read any recent thread and see them. I'm not going to repeat them again when all you're going to do is not understand them and then pull evidence from nowhere about how Sorcs can get 100k Magicka and 50k shields
thats not true. no one can do that maybe in opsoite way but thats not easy. 50 magicka posible 100k shiled not realy
The point of the post was to ridicule people who believe Sorcs can gain insanely high magicka pools and shields in PvP by pulling the argument into the extreme.Valrien Dravic -- Level 50 Dunmeri Sorcerer (EP)
Garahel Dravic -- Level 50 Bosmeri Nightblade (EP)Tamriel Unlimited was a mistake. One Tamriel was a bigger mistake1 -
templesus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Also these "stamina abilities" (I'm assuming you refer to dodge roll/block, since Warlord hasn't reduced the cost of actual stamina abilities since Morrowind) are also available to magicka builds, and you should use them as much as possible.
And what do you know... the armor traits reducing the cost of those "stamina abilities" are also available to magicka builds.
Yes they are. And they are benefitting both magicka and stamina builds equally.
Sure there is some benefit to putting CPs into Dodge Roll cost reduction as a magicka player, but the benefits of doing so as a stamina player are far greater. Same is true for the Well-fitted armor trait. If you as magicka wanted the same benefits as a stamina player you would pretty much have to use a stamina build ... which makes it really great for magicka builds.Are damage shields available to stamina builds? Should I be complaining about that? It's not like I have a CP to make dodge roll mitigate more abilities, or increase block effectiveness.
I hope you realize how nonsensical your whole argument is. If CP is such a huge problem to you, go play in noCP.
Your argument is the nonsensical one! CP are increasing the effectivness of an abilities features - that is, it increases the parameters. It does not add new features. What you are asking for, however, is adding new features to dodge and block. That's like asking that shields should also heal in CP environment or cloak also shield. If this seriously flawed comparision is really the best argument that you can come up with, then we are really done here ...You have the best *** counters in the entire game against dodge rollers (stamblades in particular). Both Streak & Curse are 100% undodgeable & uncloakable and easily outpressure Vigor heals. A dodge roller is pretty much forced to spam those dodge rolls (and eventually run out of stamina/health) vs a Sorc because even one undodged Reach can terminate a medium armor player.
It really amazing how stamblades die like flies as soon as a sorcs shows up on the battle fields and throws around his curse that deals 3k to 5k damage every 3.5 sec ... I don't know how thousands of sorcs could have missed that for so many years.
I knew that skill was good for something and not just deco in our skill books. Rejoice fellow sorcs, the rule of the stamblades is over. We just have to slot and use Curse.
And Streak? Seriously? That thing that stuns the sorc more than the actual target? That thing that has sorcs turn their backs towards the enemy? That thing that increases in cost faster than dodge roll and which cost CANNOT be reduced? That thing that is so clunky to use that you will almost certainly miss the NB running circles around you? That thing that is slower than the NB running?So yeah, I'd go read up on what "double standard" actually means since you actually display a perfect example of it in your post: "it's ok I can counter dodge roller's burst with dmg shields, but it's not ok they can counter my burst with dodge roll"
There is nothing wronmg with dodge negating the damage, BUT:
1) There needs to be counterplay to dodge b/c you can still pretty much rofl on forever, especially as a NB if you throw in the occassional cloak.
2) There shouldnt be such blatant favoritism in the CP and armor trait system.
3) Dodge and Shields - in fact all mitigation tools - should behave the same in laggy situations. Either all ignore lag or none do.
Have you ever played a stamina class? When you are playing defensive, it is necessary to dodge roll ani cancel vigor in order to survive. When it is laggy, vigor does not go off when ani canceled by dodge roll. You never stated it, but it is false to assume dodge roll performs fine in laggy situations when it does not.2 -
Feanor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Also these "stamina abilities" (I'm assuming you refer to dodge roll/block, since Warlord hasn't reduced the cost of actual stamina abilities since Morrowind) are also available to magicka builds, and you should use them as much as possible.
And what do you know... the armor traits reducing the cost of those "stamina abilities" are also available to magicka builds.
Yes they are. And they are benefitting both magicka and stamina builds equally.
Sure there is some benefit to putting CPs into Dodge Roll cost reduction as a magicka player, but the benefits of doing so as a stamina player are far greater. Same is true for the Well-fitted armor trait. If you as magicka wanted the same benefits as a stamina player you would pretty much have to use a stamina build ... which makes it really great for magicka builds.Are damage shields available to stamina builds? Should I be complaining about that? It's not like I have a CP to make dodge roll mitigate more abilities, or increase block effectiveness.
I hope you realize how nonsensical your whole argument is. If CP is such a huge problem to you, go play in noCP.
Your argument is the nonsensical one! CP are increasing the effectivness of an abilities features - that is, it increases the parameters. It does not add new features. What you are asking for, however, is adding new features to dodge and block. That's like asking that shields should also heal in CP environment or cloak also shield. If this seriously flawed comparision is really the best argument that you can come up with, then we are really done here ...You have the best *** counters in the entire game against dodge rollers (stamblades in particular). Both Streak & Curse are 100% undodgeable & uncloakable and easily outpressure Vigor heals. A dodge roller is pretty much forced to spam those dodge rolls (and eventually run out of stamina/health) vs a Sorc because even one undodged Reach can terminate a medium armor player.
It really amazing how stamblades die like flies as soon as a sorcs shows up on the battle fields and throws around his curse that deals 3k to 5k damage every 3.5 sec ... I don't know how thousands of sorcs could have missed that for so many years.
I knew that skill was good for something and not just deco in our skill books. Rejoice fellow sorcs, the rule of the stamblades is over. We just have to slot and use Curse.
And Streak? Seriously? That thing that stuns the sorc more than the actual target? That thing that has sorcs turn their backs towards the enemy? That thing that increases in cost faster than dodge roll and which cost CANNOT be reduced? That thing that is so clunky to use that you will almost certainly miss the NB running circles around you? That thing that is slower than the NB running?So yeah, I'd go read up on what "double standard" actually means since you actually display a perfect example of it in your post: "it's ok I can counter dodge roller's burst with dmg shields, but it's not ok they can counter my burst with dodge roll"
There is nothing wronmg with dodge negating the damage, BUT:
1) There needs to be counterplay to dodge b/c you can still pretty much rofl on forever, especially as a NB if you throw in the occassional cloak.
2) There shouldnt be such blatant favoritism in the CP and armor trait system.
3) Dodge and Shields - in fact all mitigation tools - should behave the same in laggy situations. Either all ignore lag or none do.
Have you ever played a stamina class? When you are playing defensive, it is necessary to dodge roll ani cancel vigor in order to survive. When it is laggy, vigor does not go off when ani canceled by dodge roll. You never stated it, but it is false to assume dodge roll performs fine in laggy situations when it does not.
Neither does healing ward or any other heal for that matter. Lag should never be a factor when it comes to balancing skills. Or should they buff DBoS because it sometimes doesn’t cast or vanished in certain LoS conditions?Main characters: Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 50 - Flawless Conqueror (PC EU)Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)Other characters:Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial NecromancerFearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDKValirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBladeTuruna - AD Altmer magBladeKheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDKKibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - StormproofYavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWardenAzog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWardenVidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDKMarquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - StormproofRawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWardenTu'waccah - AD Redguard StamplarAll chars 50 @ CP 1900+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on PC EU.3 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭a unblockable stun that hits no matter if you have cc immunity or not that can be continueously chainned you dont see a issue with that?
WTB that version. My Rune Cage certainly didn’t do that.
Just my thoughts when i read that. Not the same game i played.<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 501 -
Mayrael✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »You're wrong, the fact that it was undodgeable was the issue. The issue was that this move allowed no counterplay. Now there is thankfully. Now you'll actually have to outplay your opponent to win rather than have victory handed to you.
While that is certainly true I still try to figure out why these complains didn't started until the dmg buff. It was an no-counter stun for several months before SS and no one lost a word about it. Might it be that the skill simply wasn't worth slotting over the alternatives pre-summerset, when it was in a state that was arguably better than now?
It was because 90% of mag sorc was using destructive reach. I was one of the ones that were running cage. It was extremely powerful even then, especially vs dodge based classes. It was even more powerful because almost nobody expected this skill so when they were stunned by it, they didn't knew wat had happened. But the general reason of no nerf threads in the past was, as I said before, that there were just few sorcs that used offensive morph. This was also the reason of the buff, which led to sorcs running with rune cage everywhere and as a consequence of this, it came out that the skill is to powerful.
I was defending this skill in the past, but once you face it from the other side as a medium/light armour user (other than shieldstacking sorc) you will see how powerful this skill is.
Edit: though I think defensive morph should stay undodgeable.Edited by Mayrael on August 8, 2018 7:30AM"We are currently investigating connection issues some players are having on the European megaservers. We will update as new information becomes available."
— They always claim they’re “investigating” the causes, but in reality they’re just waiting until the PC EU players go to bed. Once that happens, you can suddenly log in again and they happily mark the issue as Fixed.0 -
Mayrael✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
oh boy tell me more about those counters i wanna hear them all again. Gotta love how sorcs try to justify they are the shittiest class of all
yeh I know its still kinda free compared to will. This is the problem of you sorcs...you think you have an extremely hard time achiving burst but in reality for ppl who played anything else than mag sorc playing sorc is ez pz.
yeh i still find it more skillful since you actually have to do something for that will (5 light attack) not just wait for your c frag to proc in your hands twice in 3 seconds for free.Oooh I couldnt wait to see the tears of sorcs when they come to realize that now they actually have to learn to play abit...its still not fully needed since they can still shieldstack like scrubs but at least they wont run around with delayed dmg plus unavoidable cc...I didnt think I will ever witness sorcs begging since they have such a big face when they win u with curse fury meteor rune cage c frag and they claim it was pure skill but here it is....keep em coming gotta love sorc tears.
True. Waiting for a Will proc while your sets proc the rest of the damage is way more skilled.
You...you do know how Frags works...right?
How is Frags free compared to Will?
If anything, isn't Will free compared to Frags? Since Light Attacks cost nothing and you have to spend MP to get a Frags proc?
And you're right, the burst isn't hard to pull off, but it also isn't hard to counter. That's mainly what people complain about regarding how Sorc isn't OP...it has an insane number of counters.:D
You can read any recent thread and see them. I'm not going to repeat them again when all you're going to do is not understand them and then pull evidence from nowhere about how Sorcs can get 100k Magicka and 50k shields
There are counters and they work, that's 100% true, I am still able to kill decent sorcs but it's because I had played one for years and I know almost every weak point of their offence and defence, I know when to go offensive and when to stay as defensive as possible. There is no other class that requires as mutch focus as sorcs when fighting them."We are currently investigating connection issues some players are having on the European megaservers. We will update as new information becomes available."
— They always claim they’re “investigating” the causes, but in reality they’re just waiting until the PC EU players go to bed. Once that happens, you can suddenly log in again and they happily mark the issue as Fixed.0 -
Feanor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
oh boy tell me more about those counters i wanna hear them all again. Gotta love how sorcs try to justify they are the shittiest class of all
yeh I know its still kinda free compared to will. This is the problem of you sorcs...you think you have an extremely hard time achiving burst but in reality for ppl who played anything else than mag sorc playing sorc is ez pz.
yeh i still find it more skillful since you actually have to do something for that will (5 light attack) not just wait for your c frag to proc in your hands twice in 3 seconds for free.Oooh I couldnt wait to see the tears of sorcs when they come to realize that now they actually have to learn to play abit...its still not fully needed since they can still shieldstack like scrubs but at least they wont run around with delayed dmg plus unavoidable cc...I didnt think I will ever witness sorcs begging since they have such a big face when they win u with curse fury meteor rune cage c frag and they claim it was pure skill but here it is....keep em coming gotta love sorc tears.
True. Waiting for a Will proc while your sets proc the rest of the damage is way more skilled.
You...you do know how Frags works...right?
How is Frags free compared to Will?
If anything, isn't Will free compared to Frags? Since Light Attacks cost nothing and you have to spend MP to get a Frags proc?
And you're right, the burst isn't hard to pull off, but it also isn't hard to counter. That's mainly what people complain about regarding how Sorc isn't OP...it has an insane number of counters.:D
You can read any recent thread and see them. I'm not going to repeat them again when all you're going to do is not understand them and then pull evidence from nowhere about how Sorcs can get 100k Magicka and 50k shields
There are counters and they work, that's 100% true, I am still able to kill decent sorcs but it's because I had played one for years and I know almost every weak point of their offence and defence, I know when to go offensive and when to stay as defensive as possible. There is no other class that requires as mutch focus as sorcs when fighting them.
In other words: balance should be done around the lowest common denominator?Main characters: Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 50 - Flawless Conqueror (PC EU)Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)Other characters:Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial NecromancerFearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDKValirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBladeTuruna - AD Altmer magBladeKheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDKKibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - StormproofYavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWardenAzog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWardenVidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDKMarquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - StormproofRawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWardenTu'waccah - AD Redguard StamplarAll chars 50 @ CP 1900+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on PC EU.0 -
Mayrael✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
oh boy tell me more about those counters i wanna hear them all again. Gotta love how sorcs try to justify they are the shittiest class of all
yeh I know its still kinda free compared to will. This is the problem of you sorcs...you think you have an extremely hard time achiving burst but in reality for ppl who played anything else than mag sorc playing sorc is ez pz.
yeh i still find it more skillful since you actually have to do something for that will (5 light attack) not just wait for your c frag to proc in your hands twice in 3 seconds for free.Oooh I couldnt wait to see the tears of sorcs when they come to realize that now they actually have to learn to play abit...its still not fully needed since they can still shieldstack like scrubs but at least they wont run around with delayed dmg plus unavoidable cc...I didnt think I will ever witness sorcs begging since they have such a big face when they win u with curse fury meteor rune cage c frag and they claim it was pure skill but here it is....keep em coming gotta love sorc tears.
True. Waiting for a Will proc while your sets proc the rest of the damage is way more skilled.
You...you do know how Frags works...right?
How is Frags free compared to Will?
If anything, isn't Will free compared to Frags? Since Light Attacks cost nothing and you have to spend MP to get a Frags proc?
And you're right, the burst isn't hard to pull off, but it also isn't hard to counter. That's mainly what people complain about regarding how Sorc isn't OP...it has an insane number of counters.:D
You can read any recent thread and see them. I'm not going to repeat them again when all you're going to do is not understand them and then pull evidence from nowhere about how Sorcs can get 100k Magicka and 50k shields
There are counters and they work, that's 100% true, I am still able to kill decent sorcs but it's because I had played one for years and I know almost every weak point of their offence and defence, I know when to go offensive and when to stay as defensive as possible. There is no other class that requires as mutch focus as sorcs when fighting them.
In other words: balance should be done around the lowest common denominator?
In other words, no other class can bring you down from 100% hp to 0% every 7s without even using ultimate. Curse, Cage, Frags all unmitigated combined with LA weaving can bring any light/medium armour user below 20% hp and then you're dead, and what's worse the only way to avoid it is immovability or perfect reflex, there is no room for even slightest mistake. It's unfortunate synergy of those all skills that allows them to land at the same time when you can't react to them. I think that even speeding up rune cage animation and making it truly instant (in the moment when you start to cast it your enemy is being stunned) would do the trick, because of GCD and frags travel time. Right now when you cast cage there is slight delay which allows sorcs to cast frags into stunned enemy that has no chance to break free and block/dodge inc frags because both skills hit him at the same time.
And about lowest common denominator. No, but you can't forget about it, you need to remember about it in balance equation."We are currently investigating connection issues some players are having on the European megaservers. We will update as new information becomes available."
— They always claim they’re “investigating” the causes, but in reality they’re just waiting until the PC EU players go to bed. Once that happens, you can suddenly log in again and they happily mark the issue as Fixed.2 -
Ranger209✭✭✭✭✭You're wrong, the fact that it was undodgeable was the issue. The issue was that this move allowed no counterplay. Now there is thankfully. Now you'll actually have to outplay your opponent to win rather than have victory handed to you.
You know what even more broken? Stam characters dodging nearly everything that is thrown at them. And there is no counterplay to it. But of course that is ok with you ... makes your life a lot easier. But god forbid there is something to counter your perma dodging ... that something has to be OP.
Best in PvP and PvE and yet they need more buffs in form of the Sloads and Rune Cage nerfs ... real solid logic there!
Lol not sure if being serious or trolling. With the extensive list of undodgeable abilities, proc sets, etc. in this game, dodge rolling is a very unreliable defense mechanic. Not to mention incredibly punishing on your resources. As a stam character your means of survival are LOS and investing into spell and physical resistance; which magicka users just eat through with the concentration passive.
I fail to see the extensive list of undodgeable abilities that are also practical and used regularly. Meteor, Force Pulse, Steel Tornado, non ground AoEs, Fear, Rune Cage (until 4.1.5.). That’s about it. As a stam character you don’t have to deal with snares because you run FM or Shuffle, and in the case of stamNB, the dodge roll penalty is moot because cloak. Also that 4,996 spell pen probably doesn’t eat through a property built stam char.
But I see it’s always just a small step from nerf Sorc to Buff Stam.
Bombard/Acid Spray, Soul Assault, Jabs/Sweeps, DoTs (after applied, proc applications etc can't usually be dodged), Leap, Fossilize, Shalks, WoE, Destro Ulti, Streak, Caltrops... just off the top of my head.
Not saying any of those are problematic though, they don't guarantee the highest burst in the entire game lands on you.
So once this goes live who then will have the highest guaranteed burst in the game, and when are we going to nerf it?0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭You're wrong, the fact that it was undodgeable was the issue. The issue was that this move allowed no counterplay. Now there is thankfully. Now you'll actually have to outplay your opponent to win rather than have victory handed to you.
You know what even more broken? Stam characters dodging nearly everything that is thrown at them. And there is no counterplay to it. But of course that is ok with you ... makes your life a lot easier. But god forbid there is something to counter your perma dodging ... that something has to be OP.
Best in PvP and PvE and yet they need more buffs in form of the Sloads and Rune Cage nerfs ... real solid logic there!
Lol not sure if being serious or trolling. With the extensive list of undodgeable abilities, proc sets, etc. in this game, dodge rolling is a very unreliable defense mechanic. Not to mention incredibly punishing on your resources. As a stam character your means of survival are LOS and investing into spell and physical resistance; which magicka users just eat through with the concentration passive.
I fail to see the extensive list of undodgeable abilities that are also practical and used regularly. Meteor, Force Pulse, Steel Tornado, non ground AoEs, Fear, Rune Cage (until 4.1.5.). That’s about it. As a stam character you don’t have to deal with snares because you run FM or Shuffle, and in the case of stamNB, the dodge roll penalty is moot because cloak. Also that 4,996 spell pen probably doesn’t eat through a property built stam char.
But I see it’s always just a small step from nerf Sorc to Buff Stam.
Bombard/Acid Spray, Soul Assault, Jabs/Sweeps, DoTs (after applied, proc applications etc can't usually be dodged), Leap, Fossilize, Shalks, WoE, Destro Ulti, Streak, Caltrops... just off the top of my head.
Not saying any of those are problematic though, they don't guarantee the highest burst in the entire game lands on you.
So once this goes live who then will have the highest guaranteed burst in the game, and when are we going to nerf it?
Guaranteed burst? Nobody, because there won't be undodgeable/unblockable/unoutrangable CCs that would guarantee burst.
Burst in general? Sorcs, but that's fine (imo) when it has counterplay, considering that it requires more setup than, say, NB burst.0 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭You're wrong, the fact that it was undodgeable was the issue. The issue was that this move allowed no counterplay. Now there is thankfully. Now you'll actually have to outplay your opponent to win rather than have victory handed to you.
You know what even more broken? Stam characters dodging nearly everything that is thrown at them. And there is no counterplay to it. But of course that is ok with you ... makes your life a lot easier. But god forbid there is something to counter your perma dodging ... that something has to be OP.
Best in PvP and PvE and yet they need more buffs in form of the Sloads and Rune Cage nerfs ... real solid logic there!
Lol not sure if being serious or trolling. With the extensive list of undodgeable abilities, proc sets, etc. in this game, dodge rolling is a very unreliable defense mechanic. Not to mention incredibly punishing on your resources. As a stam character your means of survival are LOS and investing into spell and physical resistance; which magicka users just eat through with the concentration passive.
I fail to see the extensive list of undodgeable abilities that are also practical and used regularly. Meteor, Force Pulse, Steel Tornado, non ground AoEs, Fear, Rune Cage (until 4.1.5.). That’s about it. As a stam character you don’t have to deal with snares because you run FM or Shuffle, and in the case of stamNB, the dodge roll penalty is moot because cloak. Also that 4,996 spell pen probably doesn’t eat through a property built stam char.
But I see it’s always just a small step from nerf Sorc to Buff Stam.
Bombard/Acid Spray, Soul Assault, Jabs/Sweeps, DoTs (after applied, proc applications etc can't usually be dodged), Leap, Fossilize, Shalks, WoE, Destro Ulti, Streak, Caltrops... just off the top of my head.
Not saying any of those are problematic though, they don't guarantee the highest burst in the entire game lands on you.
So once this goes live who then will have the highest guaranteed burst in the game, and when are we going to nerf it?
Guaranteed burst? Nobody, because there won't be undodgeable/unblockable/unoutrangable CCs that would guarantee burst.
Burst in general? Sorcs, but that's fine (imo) when it has counterplay, considering that it requires more setup than, say, NB burst.
The highest uncounterable burst would go to DK.
Though a lot harder to setup than on sorc and atleast 1 rgn element involved.<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 500 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭You're wrong, the fact that it was undodgeable was the issue. The issue was that this move allowed no counterplay. Now there is thankfully. Now you'll actually have to outplay your opponent to win rather than have victory handed to you.
You know what even more broken? Stam characters dodging nearly everything that is thrown at them. And there is no counterplay to it. But of course that is ok with you ... makes your life a lot easier. But god forbid there is something to counter your perma dodging ... that something has to be OP.
Best in PvP and PvE and yet they need more buffs in form of the Sloads and Rune Cage nerfs ... real solid logic there!
Lol not sure if being serious or trolling. With the extensive list of undodgeable abilities, proc sets, etc. in this game, dodge rolling is a very unreliable defense mechanic. Not to mention incredibly punishing on your resources. As a stam character your means of survival are LOS and investing into spell and physical resistance; which magicka users just eat through with the concentration passive.
I fail to see the extensive list of undodgeable abilities that are also practical and used regularly. Meteor, Force Pulse, Steel Tornado, non ground AoEs, Fear, Rune Cage (until 4.1.5.). That’s about it. As a stam character you don’t have to deal with snares because you run FM or Shuffle, and in the case of stamNB, the dodge roll penalty is moot because cloak. Also that 4,996 spell pen probably doesn’t eat through a property built stam char.
But I see it’s always just a small step from nerf Sorc to Buff Stam.
Bombard/Acid Spray, Soul Assault, Jabs/Sweeps, DoTs (after applied, proc applications etc can't usually be dodged), Leap, Fossilize, Shalks, WoE, Destro Ulti, Streak, Caltrops... just off the top of my head.
Not saying any of those are problematic though, they don't guarantee the highest burst in the entire game lands on you.
So once this goes live who then will have the highest guaranteed burst in the game, and when are we going to nerf it?
Guaranteed burst? Nobody, because there won't be undodgeable/unblockable/unoutrangable CCs that would guarantee burst.
Burst in general? Sorcs, but that's fine (imo) when it has counterplay, considering that it requires more setup than, say, NB burst.
The highest uncounterable burst would go to DK.
Though a lot harder to setup than on sorc and atleast 1 rgn element involved.
Care to elaborate?
Leap can be blocked (and I'm fairly sure if you move fast enough it fails to land, gonna do some tests with that as I've had it happen to me a few times), Fossilize outranged or CC Break+Blocked before Leap or any skill lands besides maybe FoO if you failed to counter Fossilize by kiting.
RNG elements such as Skoria/Zaan/Caluurion can be used on other classes as well.0 -
templesus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭You're wrong, the fact that it was undodgeable was the issue. The issue was that this move allowed no counterplay. Now there is thankfully. Now you'll actually have to outplay your opponent to win rather than have victory handed to you.
You know what even more broken? Stam characters dodging nearly everything that is thrown at them. And there is no counterplay to it. But of course that is ok with you ... makes your life a lot easier. But god forbid there is something to counter your perma dodging ... that something has to be OP.
Best in PvP and PvE and yet they need more buffs in form of the Sloads and Rune Cage nerfs ... real solid logic there!
Lol not sure if being serious or trolling. With the extensive list of undodgeable abilities, proc sets, etc. in this game, dodge rolling is a very unreliable defense mechanic. Not to mention incredibly punishing on your resources. As a stam character your means of survival are LOS and investing into spell and physical resistance; which magicka users just eat through with the concentration passive.
I fail to see the extensive list of undodgeable abilities that are also practical and used regularly. Meteor, Force Pulse, Steel Tornado, non ground AoEs, Fear, Rune Cage (until 4.1.5.). That’s about it. As a stam character you don’t have to deal with snares because you run FM or Shuffle, and in the case of stamNB, the dodge roll penalty is moot because cloak. Also that 4,996 spell pen probably doesn’t eat through a property built stam char.
But I see it’s always just a small step from nerf Sorc to Buff Stam.
Bombard/Acid Spray, Soul Assault, Jabs/Sweeps, DoTs (after applied, proc applications etc can't usually be dodged), Leap, Fossilize, Shalks, WoE, Destro Ulti, Streak, Caltrops... just off the top of my head.
Not saying any of those are problematic though, they don't guarantee the highest burst in the entire game lands on you.
So once this goes live who then will have the highest guaranteed burst in the game, and when are we going to nerf it?
Guaranteed burst? Nobody, because there won't be undodgeable/unblockable/unoutrangable CCs that would guarantee burst.
Burst in general? Sorcs, but that's fine (imo) when it has counterplay, considering that it requires more setup than, say, NB burst.
The highest uncounterable burst would go to DK.
Though a lot harder to setup than on sorc and atleast 1 rgn element involved.
Care to elaborate?
Leap can be blocked (and I'm fairly sure if you move fast enough it fails to land, gonna do some tests with that as I've had it happen to me a few times), Fossilize outranged or CC Break+Blocked before Leap or any skill lands besides maybe FoO if you failed to counter Fossilize by kiting.
RNG elements such as Skoria/Zaan/Caluurion can be used on other classes as well.
Meteor > Fossilize > Power Lash is probably what he was referring to.
I’d argue that Magblade will have the highest burst (with counterplay) utilizing Meteor > Fear > Bow if they don’t cc break fast enough to land the bow.0 -
Galarthor✭✭✭✭✭
✭So once this goes live who then will have the highest guaranteed burst in the game, and when are we going to nerf it?
Stamblades or DKs as both are / can be burst and got CC without counterplay, and the range doesnt really matter since those can stay permanently in melee range. Though my money would be on stamblades as a leap/meteor of the DK is way more obvious and thus easier to counter.
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DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭So once this goes live who then will have the highest guaranteed burst in the game, and when are we going to nerf it?
Stamblades or DKs as both are / can be burst and got CC without counterplay, and the range doesnt really matter since those can stay permanently in melee range. Though my money would be on stamblades as a leap/meteor of the DK is way more obvious and thus easier to counter.
If you're unable to outrange Fear/Fossilize, good news: you can still CC Break+Dodge Roll to avoid any follow up damage.
https://youtu.be/q2oUzes2_xE
So you see, there is still reaction time based counterplay to both classes and neither of them has huge delayed damage like Sorc (Curse/Fury) or Templar (Purifying Light) or Warden (Shalks).
Dodge roll after a gap closer takes you out of the 6m radius of fear btw.Edited by DDuke on August 8, 2018 4:31PM0 -
Valrien✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭So once this goes live who then will have the highest guaranteed burst in the game, and when are we going to nerf it?
Stamblades or DKs as both are / can be burst and got CC without counterplay, and the range doesnt really matter since those can stay permanently in melee range. Though my money would be on stamblades as a leap/meteor of the DK is way more obvious and thus easier to counter.
If you're unable to outrange Fear/Fossilize, good news: you can still CC Break+Dodge Roll to avoid any follow up damage.https://youtu.be/q2oUzes2_xE
So you see, there is still reaction time based counterplay to both classes and neither of them has huge delayed damage like Sorc (Curse/Fury) or Templar (Purifying Light) or Warden (Shalks).
Dodge roll after a gap closer takes you out of the 6m radius of fear btw.
Know what counter play there is to direct damage?
Purge...you know that thing that no one wants to run even though it's a very obvious solution?
You could also cloak it, if you're a NBValrien Dravic -- Level 50 Dunmeri Sorcerer (EP)
Garahel Dravic -- Level 50 Bosmeri Nightblade (EP)Tamriel Unlimited was a mistake. One Tamriel was a bigger mistake0 -
Ranger209✭✭✭✭✭You're wrong, the fact that it was undodgeable was the issue. The issue was that this move allowed no counterplay. Now there is thankfully. Now you'll actually have to outplay your opponent to win rather than have victory handed to you.
You know what even more broken? Stam characters dodging nearly everything that is thrown at them. And there is no counterplay to it. But of course that is ok with you ... makes your life a lot easier. But god forbid there is something to counter your perma dodging ... that something has to be OP.
Best in PvP and PvE and yet they need more buffs in form of the Sloads and Rune Cage nerfs ... real solid logic there!
Lol not sure if being serious or trolling. With the extensive list of undodgeable abilities, proc sets, etc. in this game, dodge rolling is a very unreliable defense mechanic. Not to mention incredibly punishing on your resources. As a stam character your means of survival are LOS and investing into spell and physical resistance; which magicka users just eat through with the concentration passive.
I fail to see the extensive list of undodgeable abilities that are also practical and used regularly. Meteor, Force Pulse, Steel Tornado, non ground AoEs, Fear, Rune Cage (until 4.1.5.). That’s about it. As a stam character you don’t have to deal with snares because you run FM or Shuffle, and in the case of stamNB, the dodge roll penalty is moot because cloak. Also that 4,996 spell pen probably doesn’t eat through a property built stam char.
But I see it’s always just a small step from nerf Sorc to Buff Stam.
Bombard/Acid Spray, Soul Assault, Jabs/Sweeps, DoTs (after applied, proc applications etc can't usually be dodged), Leap, Fossilize, Shalks, WoE, Destro Ulti, Streak, Caltrops... just off the top of my head.
Not saying any of those are problematic though, they don't guarantee the highest burst in the entire game lands on you.
So once this goes live who then will have the highest guaranteed burst in the game, and when are we going to nerf it?
Guaranteed burst? Nobody, because there won't be undodgeable/unblockable/unoutrangable CCs that would guarantee burst.
Burst in general? Sorcs, but that's fine (imo) when it has counterplay, considering that it requires more setup than, say, NB burst.
Wrong there will be a combo that has the highest guaranteed burst. There always is. I also get perma stunned by fear, fossilize, stone fist, and others plenty and can not break free. If you can't break free there is no dodge roll.
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DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭You're wrong, the fact that it was undodgeable was the issue. The issue was that this move allowed no counterplay. Now there is thankfully. Now you'll actually have to outplay your opponent to win rather than have victory handed to you.
You know what even more broken? Stam characters dodging nearly everything that is thrown at them. And there is no counterplay to it. But of course that is ok with you ... makes your life a lot easier. But god forbid there is something to counter your perma dodging ... that something has to be OP.
Best in PvP and PvE and yet they need more buffs in form of the Sloads and Rune Cage nerfs ... real solid logic there!
Lol not sure if being serious or trolling. With the extensive list of undodgeable abilities, proc sets, etc. in this game, dodge rolling is a very unreliable defense mechanic. Not to mention incredibly punishing on your resources. As a stam character your means of survival are LOS and investing into spell and physical resistance; which magicka users just eat through with the concentration passive.
I fail to see the extensive list of undodgeable abilities that are also practical and used regularly. Meteor, Force Pulse, Steel Tornado, non ground AoEs, Fear, Rune Cage (until 4.1.5.). That’s about it. As a stam character you don’t have to deal with snares because you run FM or Shuffle, and in the case of stamNB, the dodge roll penalty is moot because cloak. Also that 4,996 spell pen probably doesn’t eat through a property built stam char.
But I see it’s always just a small step from nerf Sorc to Buff Stam.
Bombard/Acid Spray, Soul Assault, Jabs/Sweeps, DoTs (after applied, proc applications etc can't usually be dodged), Leap, Fossilize, Shalks, WoE, Destro Ulti, Streak, Caltrops... just off the top of my head.
Not saying any of those are problematic though, they don't guarantee the highest burst in the entire game lands on you.
So once this goes live who then will have the highest guaranteed burst in the game, and when are we going to nerf it?
Guaranteed burst? Nobody, because there won't be undodgeable/unblockable/unoutrangable CCs that would guarantee burst.
Burst in general? Sorcs, but that's fine (imo) when it has counterplay, considering that it requires more setup than, say, NB burst.
Wrong there will be a combo that has the highest guaranteed burst. There always is. I also get perma stunned by fear, fossilize, stone fist, and others plenty and can not break free. If you can't break free there is no dodge roll.
You can break free from any of those & dodge in time (as seen in the video)? Unless game is laggy af or there's a bug of course.
If dying because of those CCs was a common experience to me I'd be complaining about them just as I've complained about Rune Cage lol.Edited by DDuke on August 8, 2018 5:40PM0 -
Galarthor✭✭✭✭✭
✭And you always could cloak when the meteor started falling onto you and yet here the NBs are complaining about it.
Of all the classes in the game, NBs acutally had the easiest counter to the Sorc combo.
And any class could just stun the sorc when the meteor started fall, thus preventing the Rune Cage and block the meteor.
There has always been counterplay.
Besides, that video is only of limited relevenance b/c your dodging party knew what was coming and when. At that range, with random activation of the abilities the limitations of the human body would not allow you do dodge these attacks unless you were already dodging. Besides, when NBs stun the target is usually already under a lot more pressure than when sorcs stun. So the amount of HP and mitigation NBs have to overcome during and right after the Fear is less.
As I said, I am not trying to maintain rune cage the way it is at any cost. But,
1) Fear should be treated the same way as Rune Cage as stamblades are as bursty as sorcs
2) Sorcs need a way to deal with perma dodgers, same way stamina builds need a way to deal with sorcs.1