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Possible solution to fake tanks.
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mikemacon✭✭✭✭✭Normal mobs do like no damage though. You actually do not need a tank for most normal dungeons, no matter what the group "agrees with"
I wouldn't do it, but I hardly give a crap about the people that do
Incorrect.
Most normal dungeons don't "need" a tank...according to you.
If you have lower level DPS, even in normal content, real tanks are a godsend.
Also, even with super-uber-awesome deeps, if the boss is constantly being pulled out of AOEs, your DPS might be super duper awesome...but group DPS suffers.
And it just ain't all about you. If it was and all you care about is your numbers - solo the dungeon.
But if you PUG with a DPS queuing as a fake tank, I will vote to kick you. Full stop.4 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭LeagueTroll wrote: »
No it’s not kick whoever tank want. Healer need to agree, healer obv tends to disagree with fake tank. And protecting the feeling of garb dd is exactly why newbie tank is underprivileged. I am speaking for newbie tank.
In what newbie tank is underprivileged? you got almost immediate group in random and around 1 minute for specific dungeons.. for dps it's 5-10 minutes for random, and absolutely random huge chunk of time for specific.
All gear you need to be a good tank (for non-dlc vets II) is easily obtainable, cheap and fast.. for dps suitable for vet 2 you need specific build, expensive and rare gear (for newbie budget)..
For "newbie" tank you may safely live with one bar, switching for other 3 times in minute to renew buffs.. for dps it's non-stop button mash and bar switch.
For newbie it's most important to survive and guess what - dps are most squishy and die from couple of errors or even from healer error and tank is almost immortal until all other teammates are dead.1 -
kargen27✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Dps or healer would only slot taunt when they realize tank is fake.
Right...Like players will queue as tank when they really want to tank. Relying on players to do the "right" thing will NEVER work.
Also, I don't even have skill points in taunt on my DPS characters. None of them use S&B and don't have the undaunted skill. That's no even an option for me.
Ice staves taunt too. In fact they would then become truly usable by dps players.
No they wouldn't as the DPS on an frost staff sucks compared to fire and lightning. I've NEVER seen any competent DPS players using a frost staff over a fire staff.
Well which is it? Competent players would have the undaunted taunt, if it would help them.
So your players are competent enough to run only optimal staves but would never have a taunt even if it would help them? Hmmm.
Truly competent dps players don’t struggle with fake tanks. But most dps are not competent.
Why would a DPS have the undaunted taunt on his bar if he is expecting a tank in the group? What you are not addressing in your post is this. Putting a taunt on your bar means replacing another skill. A competent DPS takes advantage of all skills on both bars. even if they are not a part of the rotation they have a purpose. Having to remove one to put on a taunt hurts his normal rotation. Actually having to take the time to use the taunt also messes with his rotation. Probably will not matter in the overall outcome of the fight but neither would just letting the agro go where it may.and then the parrot said, "must be the water mines green too."0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭What you could do is have it so any taunt gives the player who queued as tank aggro. Any taunt from anyone. So the other dps and healer could taunt and force aggro on the tank.
That way if they agree to no tank they don’t need to do it, but if they don’t appreciate the fake tank, they can force him to tank.
This could even help new tanks.
Could this work?
We could make it so whoever queued as tank automatically has agro on everything and make tanking the easiest role in the game.
But seriously, no. Everyone has access to a taunt. You are essentially asking for someone else to tank for the tank.LeagueTroll wrote: »Fake tank is caused by not nuf tank. Not nuf tank is caused by tanks being underprivileged. Maybe the better solution is give real tank more privilege, like see the dmg output of each dd, or tank and healer can kick dd without the other dd agree. These 2 things will be obv more useful for real tank than fake tank.
And this is obviously not the solution. LOL. Give the person who queued as a tank the power to troll everyone in the group and kick whomever he/she feels does not measure up.
1. Zos has enough sense to know that does nothing to prevent a fake tank from queueing. Probably would encourage more to queue as a fake tank so they can kick out anyone who hey do not want in the group.
2. Zos has also, very clearly said you cannot see other players damage without them choosing to share it with you. Obviously Zos is not going to let the tank see everyone's damage just because they selected the tank role. That is illogical
Besides, if you were a decent tank you would be in a decent raid guild and have on reason to be concerned about the dps others put out.
Tanking means to take the hits. The other players would not be taking the hits. The fake tank would.
This would not be any issue for real tanks. But fake ones would get mullered until they actually geared and skilled to tank. They could still fake tank, but it would not be enjoyable.
I am very well aware of what a tank is and it is much more than taking hits. Getting agro is part of it.LeagueTroll wrote: »What you could do is have it so any taunt gives the player who queued as tank aggro. Any taunt from anyone. So the other dps and healer could taunt and force aggro on the tank.
That way if they agree to no tank they don’t need to do it, but if they don’t appreciate the fake tank, they can force him to tank.
This could even help new tanks.
Could this work?
We could make it so whoever queued as tank automatically has agro on everything and make tanking the easiest role in the game.
But seriously, no. Everyone has access to a taunt. You are essentially asking for someone else to tank for the tank.LeagueTroll wrote: »Fake tank is caused by not nuf tank. Not nuf tank is caused by tanks being underprivileged. Maybe the better solution is give real tank more privilege, like see the dmg output of each dd, or tank and healer can kick dd without the other dd agree. These 2 things will be obv more useful for real tank than fake tank.
And this is obviously not the solution. LOL. Give the person who queued as a tank the power to troll everyone in the group and kick whomever he/she feels does not measure up.
1. Zos has enough sense to know that does nothing to prevent a fake tank from queueing. Probably would encourage more to queue as a fake tank so they can kick out anyone who hey do not want in the group.
2. Zos has also, very clearly said you cannot see other players damage without them choosing to share it with you. Obviously Zos is not going to let the tank see everyone's damage just because they selected the tank role. That is illogical
Besides, if you were a decent tank you would be in a decent raid guild and have on reason to be concerned about the dps others put out.
No it’s not kick whoever tank want. Healer need to agree, healer obv tends to disagree with fake tank. And protecting the feeling of garb dd is exactly why newbie tank is underprivileged. I am speaking for newbie tank.
It is no going to happen. I hope I do no have to repeat myself and update include the healer you just added. It is rather obvious you have no need to see the groups dps. You certainly have not justified what Zos has been pretty clear is no going to happen.
Edited by idk on July 31, 2018 12:38AM0 -
efster✭✭✭✭✭Just straight up disable their skill bars if they don't have a usable taunt and a source of Minor Maim slotted while set as Tank.AD is the best looking faction. I don't make the rules, I just enforce them.0 -
Minyassa✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I can see where that would cause problems, but I like the idea of some sort of filter to weed out the non-tanks. Maybe just not let someone even choose the tank role unless they have sword and board on at least one bar?0 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I can see where that would cause problems, but I like the idea of some sort of filter to weed out the non-tanks. Maybe just not let someone even choose the tank role unless they have sword and board on at least one bar?
Inner Fire.
Ice Staff Heavy Attack with Trifocus passive
Tormentor set with a charge attack
There are other taunts besides Puncture. Frost staves are made for magicka tanking.1 -
Minyassa✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »I can see where that would cause problems, but I like the idea of some sort of filter to weed out the non-tanks. Maybe just not let someone even choose the tank role unless they have sword and board on at least one bar?
Inner Fire.
Ice Staff Heavy Attack with Trifocus passive
Tormentor set with a charge attack
There are other taunts besides Puncture. Frost staves are made for magicka tanking.
Well damn.
It really does look like they painted us into a corner where there is nothing we can do about fraudulent jerks. That seems to be kind of a theme with ZOS, just forcing the player base to deal with the worst behavior people can come up with on a regular basis. It's like they are running a jerk factory on purpose for some reason.
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ItsNebula✭✭✭✭✭or.. or.. hear me out...
Realize that about 90% of the PvE content in this game doesnt require a tank?!
Only content that needs a tank these days in ESO are trials, MAYBE 3-4 VET Dungeons.. and thats pretty much it.. hell, ive done vDSA with 4 DPS... and its supposedly "End game content" lmfao, PvE in ESO is a joke.
...even there "harder" content isnt hard... only PvE thats hard imo in ESO is vAS+2, vCR+2-3 and vMoL HM... hell... vHoF HM is also a joke, LITERALLY NO NEW MECHS, just more HP, more adds and more dmg... literally a joke of a trial.0 -
TempPlayer✭✭✭✭✭I'm sure it has been mentioned but the solution to a problem is to first identify the cause. And the cause of fake tank is obvious, it is the long queue time for DPS, which can take up to hours. Although most will just requeue after mins, but that is not the point.
So, how to reduce queue time, it is easy. Just make the group finder provide a choice of queueing in a tradiontal 1 tank, 1 healer, 2 DPS group, or a 4 DPS group. That should reduce all the queue time for DPS if the server can handle all the player and spawn all instance of dungeon.
By then, there is no reason for high level player to queue as tank just to get into a dungeon faster.
The reason that there is no 1 healer, 3 DPS group is that the healer will get blame if someone die, and that can lead to a fake healer situation again. So for a 4 DPS group, each player is responsible for their own healing.
There is still situation where a unconfident DPS queue as tank just so they can get into a group with healer and queue faster. So we need a way to tell whether the tank is actually taunting the boss or not. Usually it is quite obvious that the boss is being taunt or not, but maybe the game can implement a system where taunted enemies will have a different color, maybe in a red shade, while it is being taunted so that everyone in group will know and there should be no excuse there. If a boss is not red during fight, just kick the fake tank asap. There should be no sympathy there anymore cause there is already a way for DPS to get into a group fast.
On the same note as giving taunted enemies different shade, I wish a taunt immunited enemy will get a different color, maybe blue, as well. That way I can tell if another player is using ice staff heavy attack and over taunt the boss. Again it is easy to tell but I can tell them when I am a tank that they over taunt the boss. I once has a DPS using puncture on the boss over and over while I was the tank. The coloring will make it much easier to explain to new player what they did.
Edited by TempPlayer on July 31, 2018 4:37AM1 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭or.. or.. hear me out...
Realize that about 90% of the PvE content in this game doesnt require a tank?!
Only content that needs a tank these days in ESO are trials, MAYBE 3-4 VET Dungeons.. and thats pretty much it.. hell, ive done vDSA with 4 DPS... and its supposedly "End game content" lmfao, PvE in ESO is a joke.
...even there "harder" content isnt hard... only PvE thats hard imo in ESO is vAS+2, vCR+2-3 and vMoL HM... hell... vHoF HM is also a joke, LITERALLY NO NEW MECHS, just more HP, more adds and more dmg... literally a joke of a trial.
Clearly you either have not cleared vAS+2 and vCR+3 or you are trolling.
If you had cleared those trials at that difficulty you would know that it is not content even the best groups just walked in a cleared. They spent many hours over many days before clearly that content on he highest challenge. It really is that simple.
Even Hodor did not clear vAS+2 and vCR+3 the first day they walked into them.0 -
Guppet✭✭✭✭✭
✭TempPlayer wrote: »I'm sure it has been mentioned but the solution to a problem is to first identify the cause. And the cause of fake tank is obvious, it is the long queue time for DPS, which can take up to hours. Although most will just requeue after mins, but that is not the point.
So, how to reduce queue time, it is easy. Just make the group finder provide a choice of queueing in a tradiontal 1 tank, 1 healer, 2 DPS group, or a 4 DPS group. That should reduce all the queue time for DPS if the server can handle all the player and spawn all instance of dungeon.
By then, there is no reason for high level player to queue as tank just to get into a dungeon faster.
The reason that there is no 1 healer, 3 DPS group is that the healer will get blame if someone die, and that can lead to a fake healer situation again. So for a 4 DPS group, each player is responsible for their own healing.
There is still situation where a unconfident DPS queue as tank just so they can get into a group with healer and queue faster. So we need a way to tell whether the tank is actually taunting the boss or not. Usually it is quite obvious that the boss is being taunt or not, but maybe the game can implement a system where taunted enemies will have a different color, maybe in a red shade, while it is being taunted so that everyone in group will know and there should be no excuse there. If a boss is not red during fight, just kick the fake tank asap. There should be no sympathy there anymore cause there is already a way for DPS to get into a group fast.
On the same note as giving taunted enemies different shade, I wish a taunt immunited enemy will get a different color, maybe blue, as well. That way I can tell if another player is using ice staff heavy attack and over taunt the boss. Again it is easy to tell but I can tell them when I am a tank that they over taunt the boss. I once has a DPS using puncture on the boss over and over while I was the tank. The coloring will make it much easier to explain to new player what they did.
I dare say multiple queues could be the easiest fix. But they may need to tweak the random dungeon finder then. I don’t see 4 average dps players being able to handle vet dlc easily.
Like the idea of a way to see if something is taunted. Not sure about a colour, as it’s nice to see all the nice graphics they put in. Maybe just taunt debuff, so they appear in the debuff list, maybe make its icon twice normal size.1 -
Jameliel✭✭✭✭✭
✭Sounds like fun. Then all the noobs I try to farm with could happily spam their light attacks while I kill everything as normal. Sounds like a good idea to me. Win win for everyone, especially sorcs=)0 -
jaschacasadiob16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭It would be as simple as adding more options to the group finder tools:- Speed run.
- No deaths.
- Hard mode.
- No tank.
- No heal.
You get what you ask for.
Programatically, even if it can be hard to have a working solution, you (ZOS) could start working on something like checking the overall damage blocked and taunts, warning and flagging people if they enter as a tank when they are not. Banning them from any group activity for a while if they keep it cheating."Yesterday while searching a barrel in vVoM I found a lemon. Best drop of the whole run."
Protect the weak. Heal the sick.
Treasure the gifts of friendship. Seek joy and inspiration in the mysteries of love.
Honor the Earth, its creatures, and the spirits. Use Nature's gifts wisely. Respect her power. Fear her fury.1 -
Agenericname✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭What you could do is have it so any taunt gives the player who queued as tank aggro. Any taunt from anyone. So the other dps and healer could taunt and force aggro on the tank.
That way if they agree to no tank they don’t need to do it, but if they don’t appreciate the fake tank, they can force him to tank.
Or they could add a new undaunted skill. One that sends aggro to the designated tank (who ever chose the role). Call it “it was him!”
This could even help new tanks.
Could this work?
Could yes, as in it's possible, but not may not be probable. This would most likely just become a crutch. New tanks need to learn just like the rest of us. They need to fail, learn from it, and adjust. This could essentially remove a educational element for new tanks.
The issue with fake tanks is generally two fold. There are people who are inconsiderate/selfish and the queue times are much longer for DD compared to tanks and healers. It's unlikely that ZoS will ever have any substantial influence over the former so any real solution will need to address the latter.
The more obvious countermeasure to fake tanks should I not to play with one is form my own group, guild, friends, etc. Should I find myself in a PUG then I can vote to kick or leave. As it currently stands, if the vote kick fails, I can leave but have the penalty and the queue time all over again. This is one of those areas that I believe that ZoS should take a look at. Remove, reduce, or add a condition to the penalty in such a way that it does not put us in a position to encourage this. As long as we stay in the group we are enabling it.
It doesn't need to be easy to leave a group, but it shouldn't be 45 minutes to an hour penalty (or in some cases much longer) for me because someone else doesn't want to fill the role that queued for.
Edited by Agenericname on July 31, 2018 2:02PM1 -
remilafo✭✭✭✭Just adapt, makes you stronger in the end. Depending on a quote "Real tank" just means you lake the flexibility to survive.
No Dungeon requires a quote "real tank" infact
- any normal dungeon and trials can be accomplished with a mishmash of whatever really.
- With the exception of a few bosses, almost all veteran dungeon content can be done without a tank, 1 healer and 3 dps are okay. Also often 1 tank and 3 dps is fine also. Infact 4 dps/solo builds like for Vma for example do veteran content just fine.
- Even some trials can be done without a tank like VDSA
The point is, stop complaining and adapt. Or as the internet says GIT GUD0 -
Guppet✭✭✭✭✭
✭Just adapt, makes you stronger in the end. Depending on a quote "Real tank" just means you lake the flexibility to survive.
No Dungeon requires a quote "real tank" infact
- any normal dungeon and trials can be accomplished with a mishmash of whatever really.
- With the exception of a few bosses, almost all veteran dungeon content can be done without a tank, 1 healer and 3 dps are okay. Also often 1 tank and 3 dps is fine also. Infact 4 dps/solo builds like for Vma for example do veteran content just fine.
- Even some trials can be done without a tank like VDSA
The point is, stop complaining and adapt. Or as the internet says GIT GUDJust adapt, makes you stronger in the end. Depending on a quote "Real tank" just means you lake the flexibility to survive.
No Dungeon requires a quote "real tank" infact
- any normal dungeon and trials can be accomplished with a mishmash of whatever really.
- With the exception of a few bosses, almost all veteran dungeon content can be done without a tank, 1 healer and 3 dps are okay. Also often 1 tank and 3 dps is fine also. Infact 4 dps/solo builds like for Vma for example do veteran content just fine.
- Even some trials can be done without a tank like VDSA
The point is, stop complaining and adapt. Or as the internet says GIT GUD
Funny thing is that may be true, but it’s not what other players want. What they want matters just as much in fact three times as much as what the tank wants.
The preffered group make up is actually 2 dps, 1 Tank 1 Healer.
A close second was 3 dps 1 Tank.
3 dps 1 Healer was far far behind and 4 dps was almost never wanted.
I know this because I ran a poll on it and here’s the kicker, the players here are only a fraction of the playerbase, but they are the best equipped to run non standard comps, given thier skill levels, yet they still preferred to have an actual tank.
So no, people should not need to adapt to fake tanks, they are the ones who should be changed.2 -
profundidob16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭Add the following passive to the Psijic line "meditate" skill:
When this skill is equipped on your bar all your generated agro is reduced by 50% and activating the skill makes you instantly lose all current agro on all mobs.
Dps/healers that find that the tank who is not taunting is causing them to die, could opt to equip this skill and use as needed to make sure the mobs go for the tank, not them1 -
Guppet✭✭✭✭✭
✭profundidob16_ESO wrote: »Add the following passive to the Psijic line "meditate" skill:
When this skill is equipped on your bar all your generated agro is reduced by 50% and activating the skill makes you instantly lose all current agro on all mobs.
Dps/healers that find that the tank who is not taunting is causing them to die, could opt to equip this skill and use as needed to make sure the mobs go for the tank, not them
An aggro drop is a good idea. But you just know the fake tank would use it too. Maybe selected tanks can’t activate it.1 -
LeagueTroll✭✭✭✭✭MartiniDaniels wrote: »LeagueTroll wrote: »
No it’s not kick whoever tank want. Healer need to agree, healer obv tends to disagree with fake tank. And protecting the feeling of garb dd is exactly why newbie tank is underprivileged. I am speaking for newbie tank.
In what newbie tank is underprivileged? you got almost immediate group in random and around 1 minute for specific dungeons.. for dps it's 5-10 minutes for random, and absolutely random huge chunk of time for specific.
All gear you need to be a good tank (for non-dlc vets II) is easily obtainable, cheap and fast.. for dps suitable for vet 2 you need specific build, expensive and rare gear (for newbie budget)..
For "newbie" tank you may safely live with one bar, switching for other 3 times in minute to renew buffs.. for dps it's non-stop button mash and bar switch.
For newbie it's most important to survive and guess what - dps are most squishy and die from couple of errors or even from healer error and tank is almost immortal until all other teammates are dead.
Instant que don’t mean complete. Newbie tank need to pull their own weight, garb dd often time get to cap cp and still can’t do 20k dps. I have never seen cap cp tank that can’t even handle things like banished cell 2. The fact tank can’t be easily carried half the time, is underprivilege.0 -
LeagueTroll✭✭✭✭✭What you could do is have it so any taunt gives the player who queued as tank aggro. Any taunt from anyone. So the other dps and healer could taunt and force aggro on the tank.
That way if they agree to no tank they don’t need to do it, but if they don’t appreciate the fake tank, they can force him to tank.
This could even help new tanks.
Could this work?
We could make it so whoever queued as tank automatically has agro on everything and make tanking the easiest role in the game.
But seriously, no. Everyone has access to a taunt. You are essentially asking for someone else to tank for the tank.LeagueTroll wrote: »Fake tank is caused by not nuf tank. Not nuf tank is caused by tanks being underprivileged. Maybe the better solution is give real tank more privilege, like see the dmg output of each dd, or tank and healer can kick dd without the other dd agree. These 2 things will be obv more useful for real tank than fake tank.
And this is obviously not the solution. LOL. Give the person who queued as a tank the power to troll everyone in the group and kick whomever he/she feels does not measure up.
1. Zos has enough sense to know that does nothing to prevent a fake tank from queueing. Probably would encourage more to queue as a fake tank so they can kick out anyone who hey do not want in the group.
2. Zos has also, very clearly said you cannot see other players damage without them choosing to share it with you. Obviously Zos is not going to let the tank see everyone's damage just because they selected the tank role. That is illogical
Besides, if you were a decent tank you would be in a decent raid guild and have on reason to be concerned about the dps others put out.
Tanking means to take the hits. The other players would not be taking the hits. The fake tank would.
This would not be any issue for real tanks. But fake ones would get mullered until they actually geared and skilled to tank. They could still fake tank, but it would not be enjoyable.
I am very well aware of what a tank is and it is much more than taking hits. Getting agro is part of it.LeagueTroll wrote: »What you could do is have it so any taunt gives the player who queued as tank aggro. Any taunt from anyone. So the other dps and healer could taunt and force aggro on the tank.
That way if they agree to no tank they don’t need to do it, but if they don’t appreciate the fake tank, they can force him to tank.
This could even help new tanks.
Could this work?
We could make it so whoever queued as tank automatically has agro on everything and make tanking the easiest role in the game.
But seriously, no. Everyone has access to a taunt. You are essentially asking for someone else to tank for the tank.LeagueTroll wrote: »Fake tank is caused by not nuf tank. Not nuf tank is caused by tanks being underprivileged. Maybe the better solution is give real tank more privilege, like see the dmg output of each dd, or tank and healer can kick dd without the other dd agree. These 2 things will be obv more useful for real tank than fake tank.
And this is obviously not the solution. LOL. Give the person who queued as a tank the power to troll everyone in the group and kick whomever he/she feels does not measure up.
1. Zos has enough sense to know that does nothing to prevent a fake tank from queueing. Probably would encourage more to queue as a fake tank so they can kick out anyone who hey do not want in the group.
2. Zos has also, very clearly said you cannot see other players damage without them choosing to share it with you. Obviously Zos is not going to let the tank see everyone's damage just because they selected the tank role. That is illogical
Besides, if you were a decent tank you would be in a decent raid guild and have on reason to be concerned about the dps others put out.
No it’s not kick whoever tank want. Healer need to agree, healer obv tends to disagree with fake tank. And protecting the feeling of garb dd is exactly why newbie tank is underprivileged. I am speaking for newbie tank.
It is no going to happen. I hope I do no have to repeat myself and update include the healer you just added. It is rather obvious you have no need to see the groups dps. You certainly have not justified what Zos has been pretty clear is no going to happen.
It’s not obv i have no need to see dps output. In fact, I support the exact opposite. Transparency give me, or any newbie tank info and leverage on kick subpar dd.0 -
profundidob16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭profundidob16_ESO wrote: »Add the following passive to the Psijic line "meditate" skill:
When this skill is equipped on your bar all your generated agro is reduced by 50% and activating the skill makes you instantly lose all current agro on all mobs.
Dps/healers that find that the tank who is not taunting is causing them to die, could opt to equip this skill and use as needed to make sure the mobs go for the tank, not them
An aggro drop is a good idea. But you just know the fake tank would use it too. Maybe selected tanks can’t activate it.
my hope is that since they are too lazy/ignorant to equip a taunt they sure as well won't use an agro drop skill ;-) And if they should do that, they deserve more than a kick...
besides it might be fun and exciting to "ping-pong" the mobs between all players till they die
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Huyen✭✭✭✭✭
✭Normal mobs do like no damage though. You actually do not need a tank for most normal dungeons, no matter what the group "agrees with"
I wouldn't do it, but I hardly give a crap about the people that do
Tell that to the dps that runs around in circles when they get aggro. Usally its me tho, even with a tank and I just prefer to die standung still then tired. Altho I doubt that will happen much with my new magdk.Huyen Shadowpaw, dedicated nightblade tank - PS4 (Retired)
Huyen Swiftpaw, nightblade dps - PC EU (Retired)
Huyen Lightpaw, templar healer - PC EU (Retired)
Huyen Swiftpaw, necromancer dps - PC EU (Retired)
Huyen Swiftpaw, dragonknight (no defined role yet)
"Failure is only the opportunity to begin again. Only this time, more wisely" - Uncle Iroh0 -
Azuramoonstar✭✭✭✭here is the solution:
vote kick people who don't play the role. There is nothing ZoS can do to fix it, this is a player problem not a game problem.
ff14 has a strict class system with classes tied to roles with 0 deviation, and yet some people don't play the role properly. I've met tanks who didn't tank, healers who didn't heal.
the only thing Zos can do it completely rework the classes to have concrete roles, instead of picking the roles. Which is harder to do.
I don't understand why thread after thread people assume Zos can do anything, the game is how old? If something could be done they would have did it long ago.
You can't expect a company to fix people, and if they do fix it, it might hurt the game rather help it.
ff14 doesn't allow whispers/pm/ tells in dungeon content. And they completely removed chat function in 1 of there pvp modes (feast). do you want a completely reworked class system that forces roles on certain classes? While removing the 3 tree system and removing the ability to pick what gear/weapon you can use.
that is really all Zos can do is gut the system and make it more strict. And even then, people still may not play there role.Long time mmo player: 2004-[current year]
Long time Elder scrolls player: Xbox launch morrowind.
Follower of the dawn and dusk, keeper of the moon and star.0 -
Cerbolt✭✭✭✭I'm not really sure how it can be fixed. Maybe they could put a DPS cap on whoever is set as tank or healer in dungeons? Idk if it'd work though. A lot of tanks and healers can do good damage so I'm not sure they'd like that and some DPS would still queue anyway, but still. That's all I can think of.PS EU | AD - For the Queen!
Dar'zhir - Khajiit Sorcerer | Vashirr - Khajiit Dragonknight | Relaryn - Altmer Vampblade | Khahan-ra - Khajiit Templar
Zathril - Altmer Frostden | Runaril -Altmer Necromancer | Ma'zak - Khajiit Arcanist | Gaelhwen - Bosmer Bowden0 -
DaveMoeDee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭What you could do is have it so any taunt gives the player who queued as tank aggro. Any taunt from anyone. So the other dps and healer could taunt and force aggro on the tank.
That way if they agree to no tank they don’t need to do it, but if they don’t appreciate the fake tank, they can force him to tank.
This could even help new tanks.
Could this work?
We could make it so whoever queued as tank automatically has agro on everything and make tanking the easiest role in the game.
But seriously, no. Everyone has access to a taunt. You are essentially asking for someone else to tank for the tank.LeagueTroll wrote: »Fake tank is caused by not nuf tank. Not nuf tank is caused by tanks being underprivileged. Maybe the better solution is give real tank more privilege, like see the dmg output of each dd, or tank and healer can kick dd without the other dd agree. These 2 things will be obv more useful for real tank than fake tank.
And this is obviously not the solution. LOL. Give the person who queued as a tank the power to troll everyone in the group and kick whomever he/she feels does not measure up.
1. Zos has enough sense to know that does nothing to prevent a fake tank from queueing. Probably would encourage more to queue as a fake tank so they can kick out anyone who hey do not want in the group.
2. Zos has also, very clearly said you cannot see other players damage without them choosing to share it with you. Obviously Zos is not going to let the tank see everyone's damage just because they selected the tank role. That is illogical
Besides, if you were a decent tank you would be in a decent raid guild and have on reason to be concerned about the dps others put out.
Why wouldn't tank be concerned about DPS? Why is fake DPS okay when DPS is more vital to not getting bogged down in dungeons? I tank with a real tank and I'm more concerned about the fake DPS issue than anything else. Sometimes easy bosses lead to wipes when the fake DPS can't kill adds quicker than they spawn and they interrupt my rezzing when I am the last mat standing. A quick wipe is better than a 10 minute wipe. I also don't get this mindset that a DD shouldn't be burdened with a fake tank but a tank should have to suffer through a fake DD.
At least with a fake tank, it is easy to solve by kicking the tank. When the DD is fake, which DD do you kick?0 -
Artim_X✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I for one think the OP's suggestion is awesome. I'd be like nah I'm not going to kick ya, but you're going to feel my inner fire.
(AD) Artim X/Xirtām/Måtrix |PC/NA| Casual staff wielding vampire sorcerer/templar/arcanistElectric-Stunhttps://media.giphy.com/media/Av0zcKH3i2BkaY1GXW/giphy.gif/https://c.tenor.com/jQHdFftrgwMAAAAC/tenor.gifElectric-Pets- Roleplay Damage Dealing Build.
- Gear: 5 Infallible Aether (All apparel light and Divines with Max Mag Enchants), 1 Slimecraw Guise for max spell critical (Divines, light, Max Mag Enchants), Maelstrom's Perfected Lightning Staff (infused/shock enchant), and Kinras's jewelry (bloodthirsty with spell damage enchant)/lightning staff (infused/flame/weapon damage enchant). 1 Mora's Whispers.
- Ability-Bar 1: Critical Surge, Boundless Storm, Mages' Wrath, Lightning Flood, Shocking Soul (Shock damage, Class Mastery Signature Script, and Empower), and Power Overload.
- Ability-Bar 2: Storm Pulsar, Streak, Shock Reach, Unstable Wall of Storms, Shocking Burst (Shock Damage, remove 1 negative effect, and interrupt) and Thunderous Rage.
Solo: Use Kinras's chest, replace Mora with Ring of the Pale Order, and use a heavy Slimcraw piece for max critical.
https://i.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExNHVjemwxZHI2ZmQ2bTg1ZG0xOTZ3b2QwajBzNGxmaHh6OXRpN3p6YSZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/eBgWizk5dmZRS/giphy.gifElectric-Heal- Stress free one bar pet build .
- Gear: 5 Infallible Aether (All apparel light and Divines with Max Mag Enchants. No chest piece), 1 medium Slimecraw for max spell critical (Divines, medium, Max Mag Enchants), Lightning Staff of the Sergeant (precise/shock enchant), Sergeant's chest (Divines and max magicka enchant), and Sergeant ring and necklace (bloodthirsty with spell damage enchant), Oakensoul ring (bloodthirsty with spell damage enchant)
- Ability-Bar: Daedric Prey, Summon Volatile Familiar, Bound Armaments, Unstable Wall of Storms, Summon Twilight Matriarch, and Greater storm Atronach.
https://media.giphy.com/media/5ibGIHneWS6ek/giphy.gifElectric-Ward- My Healer Build.
- Gear: 5 Spell Power Cure (All apparel light and Divines with Max Mag Enchants), 1 Slimecraw Guise for max spell critical (Divines, light, Max Mag Enchants), Maelstrom's Perfected Lightning Staff (Charged/shock enchant), and Infallible Aether jewelry (arcane with spell damage enchant)/restoration staff (Powered with absorb magicka enchant). 1 Mora's Whispers.
- Ability-Bar 1: Power Surge, Boundless Storm, Blessing of Restoration, Energy Orb, Twilight Matriarch, and Replenishing Barrier.
- Ability-Bar 2: Dark Deal, Overflowing Altar, Elemental Drain, Blockade of Storms, Twilight Matriarch, and Aggressive Horn.
https://media.giphy.com/media/Wa0TGmtDvwW3e/giphy.gifElectric-Vamp- My Meme Tank Build that uses high resistance and variety of wards.
- Gear: 5 Brands of Imperium (All body pieces except Head and Shoulders, with Divine trait, and with Prismatic Defense Enchants), full Iceheart (1 light and 1 medium. Divines and Prismatic Enchant), and Combat Physician jewelry (bloodthirsty with Prismatic Recovery Enchants), Combat Physician restoration staff (Infused with hardening enchant), and combat physician ice staff (Infused with crusher enchant).
- Ability-Bar 1: Critical Surge, Bound Aegis, Deep Thoughts, Boundless Storm, Healing Ward, and Replenishing Barrier.
- Ability-Bar 2: Silver Leash (Elemental Drain if healer isn't running it), Bound Aegis, Frost Clench, Blockade of Frost, Empowered Ward, and Temporal Guard.
https://media.giphy.com/media/ukDQiYZzRAxMZKcK86/giphy.gifDawnfang- Tanky stage 4 vampire utility focused PvP healer that can take down very inexperienced players but is primarily focused on working alongside others in an organized group, PUGs, or zergs.
- Gear: 5 Torug's Pact (medium chest and body pieces light. All Impenetrable with Prismatic Enchants). Gaze of Sithis and 1 light Mighty Chudan/Pirate Skeleton (light shoulders, and impenetrable with Prismtaic Enchants). Knight Slayer (Swift with spell damage enchant)/lightning staff (infused with oblivion enchant)/restoration staff (infused with oblivion enchant).
- Ability-Bar 1: Structured Entropy, Boundless Storm, Soul Splitting Trap, Radiating Regeneration, Healing Ward, and Life Giver.
- Ability-Bar 2: Drain Vigor (Elemental Susceptibility), Race Against Time, Rune Cage, Radiant Magelight, Regenerative Ward, and Shatter Soul.
https://media.tenor.com/ogWfvDdsqBIAAAAd/anime-black-clover.gifDuskfang- My casual one bar heavy attack Templar build that primarily utilizes Aedric Spear abilities.
- Gear: 5 Noble Duelist (Head or Shoulder and body pieces except Chest. All body pieces Divines with Max Mag Enchants), 1 light Slimecraw for max spell critical (Divines, light, Max Mag Enchant), Lightning Staff of the Sergeant (precise/shock enchant), Sergeant's chest (Divines and max magicka enchant), and Sergeant's Mail jewelry (One Ring and one Neck. Both bloodthirsty with spell damage enchant). 1 Oakensoul Ring (bloodthirsty with spell damage enchant).
- Ability-Bar 1: Puncturing Sweep, Aurora Javelin, Toppling Charge, Blazing Spear, Radiant Ward/Breath of life, and Crescent Sweep.
https://media.tenor.com/Jo8aG_ouy_oAAAAd/ac-odyssey.gifEye of the Queen- Tanky stage 4 vampire utility focused PvP healer that can take down very inexperienced players but is primarily focused on working alongside others in an organized group, PUGs, or zergs.
- Gear: 5 Torug's Pact (Heavy Chest with light Head, Waist, Hands, and Feet. All body pieces Impenetrable. Health enchant on chest/head/legs and everything else Prismatic Enchants), 1 Medium Mighty Chudan/Pirate Skeleton Shoulder (Impenetrable, Prismatic Enchant), Knight Slayer Restoration Staff (Infused/Decrease Health enchant), and Knight Slayer jewelry (One Ring and one Neck. Both Swift with spell damage enchant). 1 Oakensoul Ring (Swift with Spell Damage Enchant).
- Ability-Bar 1: Radiant Oppression, Race Against Time, Aurora Javelin, Breath of Life, Resolving Vigor, and Life Giver.
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/fd/44/1c/fd441c8242af6ec35ada94496feb0901.gifEye of the King- My casual one bar heavy attack Arcanist build that primarily utilizes Herald of the Tome abilities.
- Gear: 5 Noble Duelist (Head or Shoulder and body pieces except Chest. All body pieces Divines with Max Mag Enchants), 1 light Slimecraw for max spell critical (Divines, light, Max Mag Enchant), Lightning Staff of the Sergeant (precise/shock enchant), Sergeant's chest (Divines and max magicka enchant), and Sergeant's Mail jewelry (One Ring and one Neck. Both bloodthirsty with spell damage enchant). 1 Oakensoul Ring (bloodthirsty with spell damage enchant).
- Ability-Bar 1: Escalating Runeblades, Pragmatic Fatecarver, Cephaliarch's Flail, Rune of Displacement, Inspired Scholarship/Evolving Runemend, and The Languid Eye.
https://i.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExOTAzdjV1eTgwbDFmM3lrZmxuMXRqdDR3Y3h1ZDRpajR0M3VjZzQ3NSZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/zXmbOaTpbY6mA/giphy.gifPvE Starter Gear- Tanky stage 4 vampire utility focused PvP healer that can take down very inexperienced players but is primarily focused on working alongside others in an organized group, PUGs, or zergs.
- Gear: 5 Torug's Pact (Heavy Chest with light Head, Waist, Hands, and Feet. All body pieces Impenetrable. Health enchant on chest/head/legs and everything else Prismatic Enchants), 1 Medium Mighty Chudan/Pirate Skeleton Shoulder (Impenetrable, Prismatic Enchant), Knight Slayer Restoration Staff (Infused/Decrease Health enchant), and Knight Slayer jewelry (One Ring and one Neck. Both Swift with spell damage enchant). 1 Oakensoul Ring (Swift with Spell Damage Enchant).
- Ability-Bar 1: Escalating Runeblades, Race Against Time, Rune of Uncanny Adoration, Evolving Runemend, Resolving Vigor, and Life Giver.
https://media.giphy.com/media/6CovzgyTig7M4/giphy.gifRace- Gear: 5 Law of Julianos (heavy chest, gloves/belt light, and the rest can be light or 1 medium piece if you're not wearing medium anywhere else on your body. All in training if grinding for XP or divines), Armor of the Seducer or Magnus' Gift head, shoulder, and staves (light with 1 medium piece if you are not already wearing 1 medium Julianos piece. All in training or divines. The staves should be training or infused), and 3 purple Willpower Jewelry with Arcane trait (can be bought from trading guilds for relatively cheap.
- Check tamrieltradecentre.com for the best deals if you're not using a price checking addon).
https://media.giphy.com/media/sdEkeWpiaGz0A/giphy.gifMundus Stones- High elf, since you will not have issues with sustain, but other mag based races are also fine so this is more of a personal choice.
https://media.giphy.com/media/cT3wMhLGQWdKU/giphy.gifCurrent Champion Points- PvP: The Steed for speed. Gotta go fast!
- PvE Healing/Damage: The Thief for decent crit rate.
- PvE Tanking: The Lady to get close to resistance cap.
https://media.giphy.com/media/l4FGDAx6u3hthMhgI/giphy.gifFavorite Foods and Potions- DPS: Shadowstrike/ Master Gatherer, Meticulous Disassembly/Plentiful Harvest, Steed's Blessing, Sustaining Shadows, Exploiter, Weapons Expert, Fighting Finesse, Master-at-Arms, Celerity, Rejuvenation, Fortified, Boundless Vitality.
- Healer Sorc: Shadowstrike/ Master Gatherer, Meticulous Disassembly/Plentiful Harvest, Steed's Blessing, Sustaining Shadows, Enlivening Overflow, Hope Infusion, Weapon's Expert, Arcane Supremacy, Celerity, Rejuvenation, Fortified, Boundless Vitality.
- Tanky Sorc: Shadowstrike/ Master Gatherer, Meticulous Disassembly/Plentiful Harvest, Steed's Blessing, Sustaining Shadows, Ironclad, Enduring Resolve, Reinforced, Duelist's Rebuff, Bastion, Ward Master, Rejuvenation, Fortified.
- PvP Sorc: Shadowstrike/ Master Gatherer, Meticulous Disassembly/Plentiful Harvest, Steed's Blessing, Sustaining Shadows, Enlivening Overflow, Weapon's Expert, Occult Overload, Arcane Supremacy, Bastion, Rejuvenation, Fortified, Boundless Vitality.
- PvP Temp/Arcanist: Shadowstrike/ Master Gatherer, Meticulous Disassembly/Plentiful Harvest, Steed's Blessing, Sustaining Shadows, Enlivening Overflow, Weapon's Expert, From the Brink, Arcane Supremacy, Celerity, Rejuvenation, Fortified, Boundless Vitality.
https://media.giphy.com/media/3otPoTggaYFNd1FdAI/giphy.gif- Parse Food for PvE:(DPS) Ghastly Eye Bowl (increases Max Magicka by 4592 and Magicka Recovery by 459 for 2 hours).
- Gold/Purple Food for Sorc PvP and Meme Tanking:(PvP) Clockwork Citrus Filet (increases Max Health by 3326, Health Recovery by 406 [useful if stage 1 vampire], Max Magicka by 3080, and Magicka Recovery by 338 for 2 hours). Witchmother's Potent Brew (Increase Max Magicka by 2856, Max Health by 3094, and Magicka Recovery by 315 for 2 hours.
- Trash Potions when feeling cheap: Regular CP150 Essence of Magicka pots that I obtain frequently from playing the game or Crown Tri-Restoration Potion obtained from dailies.
- Crafted Potions: Essence of Spell Critical (Bugloss, Lady's Smock, and Water Hyacinth). Without magelight this is my primary means of obtaining Major Prophecy on my Sorc, which increases my Spell Critical Rating. This also heals and restores magicka. Essence of Immovability (Columbine, Corn Flower, and Wormwood). I use this in PvP, since this gives me stealth detection, knockback immunity, and restores magicka (better to use it when competent allies are nearby, since it might reveal that you are surrounded by multiple players in stealth and you will not have an emergency pot available after use). Essence of Invisibility with only 2 ingredients (Blue Entoloma, Namira's Rot, Nirnroot, or Spider Egg). I use this in PvE content that requires stealth and if I need more speed I'll use Rapid Maneuver before using the potion. Essence of Invisibility with 3 ingredients (Blessed Thistle, Blue Entoloma, and Namira's Rot). Very useful in PvP alongside the vampire Dark Stalker passive, since you'll be invisible, ignore movement speed penalty while in Crouch, and you'll have a 30% movement speed boost from Major Expedition (I always have this slotted when riding from point A to B in PvP land, since gankers are always lurking). My templar/arcanist will mostly use Essence of Health (Tri-Stat Potion) Ingredients: (Mountain Flower, Columbine, and Bugloss).
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DaveMoeDee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭LeagueTroll wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »LeagueTroll wrote: »
No it’s not kick whoever tank want. Healer need to agree, healer obv tends to disagree with fake tank. And protecting the feeling of garb dd is exactly why newbie tank is underprivileged. I am speaking for newbie tank.
In what newbie tank is underprivileged? you got almost immediate group in random and around 1 minute for specific dungeons.. for dps it's 5-10 minutes for random, and absolutely random huge chunk of time for specific.
All gear you need to be a good tank (for non-dlc vets II) is easily obtainable, cheap and fast.. for dps suitable for vet 2 you need specific build, expensive and rare gear (for newbie budget)..
For "newbie" tank you may safely live with one bar, switching for other 3 times in minute to renew buffs.. for dps it's non-stop button mash and bar switch.
For newbie it's most important to survive and guess what - dps are most squishy and die from couple of errors or even from healer error and tank is almost immortal until all other teammates are dead.
Instant que don’t mean complete. Newbie tank need to pull their own weight, garb dd often time get to cap cp and still can’t do 20k dps. I have never seen cap cp tank that can’t even handle things like banished cell 2. The fact tank can’t be easily carried half the time, is underprivilege.
This really depends on what you consider to be successful tanking. Not dying and taunting just the boss is ridiculously easy, but even a tank doing all that could be to blame if everyone else dies. In a low DPS/low CP group in a vet dungeon, I feel like as tank, I often need to taunt or cc ALL mobs to keep the fake DDs alive. Otherwise I will see them soloing adds one by far from the boss and we end up with the next wave of adds arriving before the previous wave clears.
Thing is, If I get completely fed up with fake DDs, that would mean one less real tank pugging vet dungeons. That means longer wait times for all non-tanks.0 -
JumpmanLane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭When me and my friends do a random normal we’ll pick up a pug and I usually queue as a tank and never tanked a second in my life. Usually we’ll immediately vote and kick the random because we don’t need him, unless he’s nice. Sometimes I’ll queue as a healer cause ill toss out a vigor every once in a while but most normals can be soloed and I only do vets with my friends.
I don’t get what the big deal is. Do vets with your friends or guildies. If you get 3 dps in a normal enjoy the ride.Edited by JumpmanLane on August 2, 2018 8:43PM0
