Why this game will never be balanced

Lutallo · July 2018

If you compare ESO balancing to a game where they actually do things properly (Rainbow Six Siege), you'll notice something: the developers actually back up their gameplay changes with data and metrics collected in game and of course, they actually bother to collect that data to begin with.

Example in R6: Oh, an operator in rainbow six siege has a 75% win rate? Let's look into why they're winning so much and adjust accordingly until we get a reasonable stat on their win percentage
Example in ESO: Oh, it seems there's 3 or 4 forum posts about X class or X ability being OP (most likely posted by the opposing class which is counters), lets destroy that class/ability so people stop complaining.

Literally the easiest metric to collect in this game seems completely ignored: Class Distribution. IE, Almost every end-game trials group DPS is a NB, healer is a Templar and tank is a DK. Hmmm... maybe, just maybe, there's something about those three classes that make them vastly overperform in their roles? Or are ZOS just waiting for a couple of forum posts to butcher those classes in those roles?

The proportion of people playing Sorc/NB compared to Templar/DK/Warden in PvP is ridiculously skewed. I would honestly say there are 100 NB/Sorcs for every 15 Templar/DK/Wardens. Hmmm.. maybe there's something weak about Templars, DKs and Wardens? Maybe?

Collect some data on your game.
While you're at it, ring up AWS and get some proper infrastructure so your game doesn't crash every 15 minutes in Cyrodiil.

getemshauna · July 2018

Unluckily, ESO doesn't need to be balanced since it's not competetive (no ranking matches). Sad, but true.

Drdeath20 · July 2018

ZoS acknowledged this in their meeting with the class reps. It is known by them. They also said they are looking into templar damage dealers. Thats all i know for a fact

Path · July 2018

Never cared about balance. Prefer specialized skills. I think "Balance" is a dream or a very boring game.

Drdeath20 · July 2018

Path wrote: »

Never cared about balance. Prefer specialized skills. I think "Balance" is a dream or a very boring game.

I aggree. I dont care if this game ever has absolute balance but it should be much closer than what it currently is.

Ankael07 · July 2018

What ''data collecting'' are you talking about when developers dont even play their own game?

How many years have we gave feedback against AOE caps and they didnt listen? Or did you guys forget about the first proc meta when people could easily pull off 15k instantly just with their sets? Or all the PTS changes that go live despite overwhelming feedback (see Sload's and Rune Cage)

hakan · July 2018

Hmm maybe your data doesnt show the truth. Hmm. i see more dk and sorc than nb. Hmmm..

Also funny when you give an example...of Rainbow Six Siege. LOL

AlienatedGoat · July 2018

"Balance" is a myth and a pipedream.

It'll never happen as long as new things are being added.

Sergykid · July 2018

the nb or sorc bounty daily is completed during first half of a siege. Bounty on other classes requires 2 full sieges at least. You don't even need the quest, death recap is always surprise attack and mage's fury, with values of 5k+ on a 30k resistances tank (like myself). I even got hit by 9k frags. What are those people wearing??

i tell you what they're wearing: the class. Not only big offensive capabilities, but those have the best defensives too

MissBizz · July 2018

They totally do look at metrics. I recall @ZOS_RichLambert coming to the forums telling how many people wore what kind of armor etc before. Just because you don't see their data doesn't mean they don't have and use it.

Elsonso · July 2018

No, ESO is never going to be balanced like a shooter.

Rudal · July 2018

gethemshauna wrote: »

ESO doesn't need to be balanced since it's not competitive (no ranking matches).

First, the above.

Second. A game that wants to marry both PvP and PvE without separating skills and/or characters will never be balanced.
Changes and "balancing" skills for pvp always ruins everything for PvE players and vice versa.
It would be easier to do what first Guild Wars did, just have a separate characters that are governed by separate rules for pvp and then you may get lucky with some balance.

Besides, why would you compare pvp oriented shooter to a RPG oriented MMO game?

alainjbrennanb16_ESO · July 2018

it will never be balanced, unless they do something to separate pve and pvp, they dont need to change skills, i think all they need to do, is lower damage output in pvp dependent on how peeps are attacking someone, ie: if 2 peeps attacking 1 the damage is lowered from there attacks by 5 % so when 40 on 1 person it could work out there damage output is only 1%

VaranisArano · July 2018

PVP balance is more like Rock, Paper, Scissors than a situation where every build is equally good.

Every build has situations where they will do really well and situations where they will do really poorly.

Starlight_Knight · July 2018

There is no wriggle room with ESO though as the gear cap is ridiculously under powered at 160, and the floor and ceiling is squashed together so very tightly - Proc sets close the gap even more in pvp.
There needs to be a larger gap between new and old players, and a bigger gear cap. i would say nearly half of the player base is CP 1000 - Wasted.
Zo$ has backed themselves into a corner with such a narrow player growth window.

Banana · July 2018

Gilliam will sort it out once he gets a couple promotions

Alcast · July 2018

neva

kongkim · July 2018

Lutallo wrote: »

Example in ESO: Oh, it seems there's 3 or 4 forum posts about X class or X ability being OP (most likely posted by the opposing class which is counters), lets destroy that class/ability so people stop complaining.

How do you know its the way they do it? Or are you just making a whiny post with no facts?

zaria · July 2018

VaranisArano wrote: »

PVP balance is more like Rock, Paper, Scissors than a situation where every build is equally good.

Every build has situations where they will do really well and situations where they will do really poorly.

This, I can balance this game in an hour.
Only weapon attacks who does an fixed damage / effect, all characters has the same health, magic and stamina and resistance, armor has no effect, neither class or race bonuses and obviously no CP.
As people complain remove effects until only LA and HA is left.

See its very simple, poing is perfectly balanced if its random who start with the ball.
Yes some might see the problem here

Not saying ZoS does an good job, but the perfect balance is probably not something you want.

Emmagoldman · July 2018

100% balance will never happen and should never happen. There are too many variables for it to happen and it is ok to have different abilities. The game overall has been moving towards balance for a long time. Personally I feel it's way better then it was in the past.
Generally eso's players base holds on to the past like an abusive uncle went to play wrestle with them at bed time. "permablock tanks" "shield stacking sorcs" "perma rolling nbs" ect

I understand frustration when a significant experienced player base says, hey, that new set is going to be a problem and it is thrown into the stew any ways. Some of these sets shouldn't go live. Last thing is, zos needs to go back and look at older sets that are just super trash and come up with a way to make them of worth.

Kelriel0829 · July 2018

Alcast has confirmed the guy in charge of balancing doesn't even play the game, how would you expect ZOS to balance this game properly, they don't even want to do it right!

Draxys · July 2018

There’s also a severe lack of vision from the leadership. Lots of people talk about devs being incompetent, but I think they’re something worse, which is lost. They have no idea what they want the identity to be for any class, especially DK. They have no vision for what balance should be like, they only buff and nerf things based on.... actually I don’t even know what they base it on, because it sure as hell isnt what’s going on in the actual game. The leadership needs vision and a clear path for the product (other than player satisfaction and stuff feeling “powerful”), and that can’t be fixed by improving or replacing underperforming devs.

Gnortranermara · July 2018

I don't want perfect, mathematically exact balance.

I do want every class to be able to perform every role with roughly similar performance, without huge gaps. As it stands, that is not the case. The gaps between top class and bottom class (for all roles) are far too big.

FakeFox · July 2018

Lutallo wrote: »

The proportion of people playing Sorc/NB compared to Templar/DK/Warden in PvP is ridiculously skewed. I would honestly say there are 100 NB/Sorcs for every 15 Templar/DK/Wardens. Hmmm.. maybe there's something weak about Templars, DKs and Wardens? Maybe?

And this is where it kind of falls apart, Stamina Warden is one of the strongest PvP builds you can run. It's played so little for other reasons.
I generally agree, that class distribution is a good metric, however it doesn't work on it's own. There needs to be communication with the community, testing by the devs, etc. to make it work. But most importantly changes need to be smaller and more often. Changing balancing only every major update but therefore completely shifting the meta does not work.

Elsonso · July 2018

Kelriel0829 wrote: »

Alcast has confirmed the guy in charge of balancing doesn't even play the game, how would you expect ZOS to balance this game properly, they don't even want to do it right!

Really, that sort of goes counter to what has been said on ESO Live.

Jameliel · July 2018

Sergykid wrote: »

the nb or sorc bounty daily is completed during first half of a siege. Bounty on other classes requires 2 full sieges at least. You don't even need the quest, death recap is always surprise attack and mage's fury, with values of 5k+ on a 30k resistances tank (like myself). I even got hit by 9k frags. What are those people wearing??

i tell you what they're wearing: the class. Not only big offensive capabilities, but those have the best defensives too

Nah...I had NB bounty most of the day, and I was grinding hard. It's random. Sometimes super fast, sometimes slow. NBs are popular because there are so many ways to play them. I see a ton of DKs and Templar's as well. Sorcs are popular because they are easy to play, and of course are the go to class for magic lovers. It's like that in every game. ESO doesn't have many classes, and the devs are not adept at implementing new classes or changes. Very sloppy work they do.

DuskMarine · July 2018

Path wrote: »

Never cared about balance. Prefer specialized skills. I think "Balance" is a dream or a very boring game.

balance is something that wow hasnt even reached and thats been out for decades. well never see true balance perfection you can chase but youll never catch it. trying to balance pvp is quite litterally impossible you cant balance a human being and our intuition to take advantage of absolutely everything. and in pve we need more damaging skills instead of them getting nerfed into the floor for pvp in turn making pve almost abssymal. so really no way will we ever see this game truly balanced.

BaneOfBattler · July 2018

I don't think comparing a competitive focused fps game with eso can be used as comparison of any kind.

But i do agree that they never balance, they nerf and buff classes at their judgement.

Like we templars never really needed a pulsing aoe and nerfing the heal from puncturing sweeps.

Or wardens never really been so outstanding for them to get nerfed to the ground.

Rungar · July 2018

it is proper just not the way you like

dk=tank
templar=healer
night/sorc=dps
warden= jack of all

Elsonso · July 2018

Rungar wrote: »

it is proper just not the way you like

warden= jack of all

Nod. Jack of all tends to be master of none.

Doctordarkspawn · July 2018

Aim to make fun, not balance. Balance is a pipedream.