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Wolfhunter - sending Magsorc back to the Reach-spam meta?

TheYKcid
TheYKcid
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During the CWC & DBones patches, Rune Cage was a skill so lacklustre that the vast majority of Sorcs didn't bother slotting it, instead defaulting to the Master's destro staff for their source of a spammable and CC.

With the changes in PTS 4.1.2, Cage has been largely reverted to this state.

It'll undoubtedly still be an OP zerging tool, since it reliably locks-down a target while the zerg more than compensates for the lack of a damage tooltip. But in any other context, expending an entire GCD to accomplish nothing except CC your opponent is really detrimental to burst, which is why many preferred Reach-spam pre-Summerset.


EDIT: As of 6 August, Rune Cage has not only lost its damage (4.1.2 change), but has also been made dodgeable (4.1.4 PTS notes). The skill itself is now significantly and objectively worse than in CWC/DBones, while the Cage + Meteor combo as a whole is weaker as meteor no longer self-empowers.

I'll probably go back to Master's destro, and was wondering if that's the general direction that the meta is headed. In the event that Magsorc does get shoehorned back into the Reach + DBoS combo, I think it bodes really poorly for the class that was already below mid-tier in CWC/DBones, but has received (or will receive) additional direct and indirect nerfs since then:
  • dodgeable Fury
  • sacrificing 2 frontbar slots for Master's destro
  • possibly increased Wings prevalence next patch
  • Sload's (can't really afford to dodge this consistently, even post-nerf)

So, forum Sorcs, what will be your CC of choice in Wolfhunter?
Edited by TheYKcid on August 7, 2018 10:35AM
PC/NA — Daggerfall Covenant — BGs, Kaalgrontiid
Kalazar ChalhoubRedguard Nord Stamplar
Kalaron Caemor — Altmer Magsorc
Kalahad Cirith — Dunmer Magden

Wolfhunter - sending Magsorc back to the Reach-spam meta? 70 votes

Sticking with Rune Cage
40%
ZelosTrollwutSeptimus_MagnaWingTinkerpoopmitebaOtarTheMadMinalanVynistBfish22090Emma_OverloadWaffennachtTheRealSnikerCyrusAryaKadoinsnejremllovGnozoSpeed_KillsJierdanitArtim_X 28 votes
Returning to Master's destro
34%
Kovabigdavid11b16_ESOKeriokokollege14a5FearlessOne_2014felinith66DerraRebornV3xbardx86SoulKing32Malamar1229Sky_WKMicah_BayerKikkeMalcolM24TirpsKyuremBlackExodiumTheYKcidApache_Kid 24 votes
Other (please specify)
25%
WuffyCeruleiLylithApheriusTakes-No-PrisonerLord-OttoSkullstachioAedarylralphylaurenBeardimusDracan_FontomBiro123CarcharodontosaurusNelothgepe87jaws343Sparr0whuschdeguddzjeItsNebula 18 votes
  • TheYKcid
    TheYKcid
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    Returning to Master's destro
    On a side note, I'm aware that the Wolfhunter Cage will enjoy a 5 second stun duration, vs. the pre-Summerset 2.5s.

    But to be fair, as has been extensively discussed in other threads, there is no functional difference between 2.5 and 5 in most cases:
    • The Sorc wombo-combo (Curse + Meteor + Cage + Fury, give or take a Frags depending on RNG) is going to occur within 1 GCD of Cage being cast. So whether the stun is 2.5 or 5s is irrelevant—you're going to eat the combo either way.
    • If you survive the combo, you need to break free and go defensive immediately, so the remaining CC duration is also irrelevant.
    You'd only conceivably survive the whole 2.5s without breaking-free if you were a dedicated tank and/or under the effect of a long-duration defensive ult (S&B, Resto). So the increase to 5s is a certainly a buff, but only in niche scenarios.
    Edited by TheYKcid on July 28, 2018 4:55PM
    PC/NA — Daggerfall Covenant — BGs, Kaalgrontiid
    Kalazar ChalhoubRedguard Nord Stamplar
    Kalaron Caemor — Altmer Magsorc
    Kalahad Cirith — Dunmer Magden
  • CyrusArya
    CyrusArya
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    Sticking with Rune Cage
    I’m still gonna run rune cage because I don’t like being in a situation where every decent DK or block build is a total impasse in a 1vX situation. Sorcs inability to break block is a fatal gameplay design and makes the class very frustrating.

    That being said I welcome the nerfs. Cage is overperforming on live and this brings it in to line. Any further nerfs tho and I’ll drop it for reach, because at that point you’re sacrificing your ability to kill anything and not just block specs. I just wanna thank you tho for making this post. It may seem small, but ppl don’t realize how massive these nerfs are relative to live, especially in regards to fury.

    Yet again, sorc is seeing the largest nerfs of any class in the game. Yet I guarantee we won’t make it a week into wolf hunter before some baddie dies to a sorc and respawns on the forums groveling for more nerfs.
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  • idk
    idk
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    4.1.2 seems to keep the skill in tact and makes the secondary part of the skill not guaranteed. The stun still fires which is the main reason the skill is used.
  • TheYKcid
    TheYKcid
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    Returning to Master's destro
    CyrusArya wrote: »
    Yet again, sorc is seeing the largest nerfs of any class in the game. Yet I guarantee we won’t make it a week into wolf hunter before some baddie dies to a sorc and respawns on the forums groveling for more nerfs.
    I'm in full agreement that Cage needs tuning-down in some way, but it was the ONE thing in the Magsorc toolkit that was justifiably OP (kill-stealing with Fury is a legit issue in BGs, but one with the scoring system and not Sorc balance in and of itself). The nerfs we did get have been incredibly heavy-handed, and I'm worried Sorc will be thrown into a bad place once again.

    idk wrote: »
    4.1.2 seems to keep the skill in tact and makes the secondary part of the skill not guaranteed. The stun still fires which is the main reason the skill is used.
    But ALL these features were present during CWC & DBones, and it didn't stop Magsorc from being an underwhelming class. 4.1.2 simply brought us back to this state of affairs.
    Edited by TheYKcid on July 28, 2018 5:11PM
    PC/NA — Daggerfall Covenant — BGs, Kaalgrontiid
    Kalazar ChalhoubRedguard Nord Stamplar
    Kalaron Caemor — Altmer Magsorc
    Kalahad Cirith — Dunmer Magden
  • ItsNebula
    ItsNebula
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    Ive always preferred flame reach.. the 1k dot every second for 8 seconds is nice.

    However i dont run the master inferno, wont work with my buld
  • Neloth
    Neloth
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    I was thinking about using reach without master destro + elemental weapon as spammable

    I’m not sure, is it possible to time curse -> elem weapon -> reach with LA -> frag, to make it hit all at once?
  • TheYKcid
    TheYKcid
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    Returning to Master's destro
    Reach without Master's does really poor damage, though. Poor enough that I'd just go with spammable + Cage, honestly. The reliable CC is worth more in this comparison.

    But moreover, I see no reason to run elewep + vanilla reach in the first place. Sustain-wise, Master"s reach costs only 2091 mag, almost negligibly more than ele's 2000. Both are reflectable, so ele confers no advantage. And Master's frees up a barslot which can be used for magelight to boost ALL your tooltips, not just the spammable. Or just fill it with a utility skill of your choice.
    PC/NA — Daggerfall Covenant — BGs, Kaalgrontiid
    Kalazar ChalhoubRedguard Nord Stamplar
    Kalaron Caemor — Altmer Magsorc
    Kalahad Cirith — Dunmer Magden
  • Biro123
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    Other (please specify)
    Mine is now incap.
    Minalan owes me a beer.

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    Minie Mo - Stam/Magblade - DC
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  • Lord-Otto
    Lord-Otto
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    Other (please specify)
    Both, just as in DB.
    Master Reach for a normal burst attempt, Cage for a weak guaranteed burst or a Meteor burst.
    Wasting two set slots really blows. Won't stop people from calling for nerfs, though, you mark my words!
    *sigh*
    This isn't progress... If a buff can be reverted, why not revert a nerf and give us our *** fragstun back??? Literally everyone is asking for that!
  • Lylith
    Lylith
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    i don't use either of them for cc.
  • Minalan
    Minalan
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    Sticking with Rune Cage
    CyrusArya wrote: »
    I’m still gonna run rune cage because I don’t like being in a situation where every decent DK or block build is a total impasse in a 1vX situation. Sorcs inability to break block is a fatal gameplay design and makes the class very frustrating.

    That being said I welcome the nerfs. Cage is overperforming on live and this brings it in to line. Any further nerfs tho and I’ll drop it for reach, because at that point you’re sacrificing your ability to kill anything and not just block specs. I just wanna thank you tho for making this post. It may seem small, but ppl don’t realize how massive these nerfs are relative to live, especially in regards to fury.

    Yet again, sorc is seeing the largest nerfs of any class in the game. Yet I guarantee we won’t make it a week into wolf hunter before some baddie dies to a sorc and respawns on the forums groveling for more nerfs.

    Another standing ovation is appropriate here.

    Bravo!

    Edit: Sticking with cage because I don’t use a spammable most of the time. You use cage to line up burst.

    I played spammable reach build a bit this patch and it was pretty miserable against nightblades and DK’s to be honest.
    Edited by Minalan on July 29, 2018 9:05AM
  • Neloth
    Neloth
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    Other (please specify)
    TheYKcid wrote: »
    Reach without Master's does really poor damage, though. Poor enough that I'd just go with spammable + Cage, honestly. The reliable CC is worth more in this comparison.

    But moreover, I see no reason to run elewep + vanilla reach in the first place. Sustain-wise, Master"s reach costs only 2091 mag, almost negligibly more than ele's 2000. Both are reflectable, so ele confers no advantage. And Master's frees up a barslot which can be used for magelight to boost ALL your tooltips, not just the spammable. Or just fill it with a utility skill of your choice.

    I was asking if it is possible to hit with elemental weapon with a skill on a next global cool down, say: elemweapon -> NO LA -> flame reach -> LA, so both reach CC + elem weapon hit all at once (and the curse too), followed by frag.

    If it is possible, it’s a bigger burst, but yes, it’s countarable by dodge and reflect
  • ExcaliburESO
    ExcaliburESO
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    In the first place sorcerer shouldnt have 30m dmging fossilize. 2nd i dont get why its a stolen overpowered version of another class iconic skill and yet ppl are so much defending it. When dks had 18m (not30) undogeable stun sorcs were crying how op it is cuz they cannot have a perfect range scenario to do they elitist burst now that sorcs got same skill they crying how bad it is to have it nerfed in anyway lol this makes me laugh hard. Also mages fury is bugged as hell i have video proof how it one procs at 50 % and also how it procs before other skills when im at 60 70% hp. or the best one when u run from 5 ppl chasing and there is a sorc on the rock spaming light atacks and runecage from 30 m away then puts hunting curse mages fury u run behind a rock u 60%. Boom u died cuz the elite class hit u for 8k with curse and 7k with fury at same time as a stam dk in medium armor quite impossible to play. I found a counterplay to this ofc its quite ez actually i made a stamina sorcerer and now i just do 2 streaks pop invis pot if many ppl on me then darkdeal behind a rock and rdy to go again. I didnt know that sorcerer is that ez to play after a week of playing it i kill everything way easier and have better sustain mobility even survivalbility then any other class. And those implosion procs are lol.
  • Aliyavana
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    Not a mag sorc but def rune is an amazing cc for stam sorcs
  • Emma_Overload
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    Sticking with Rune Cage
    Neloth wrote: »
    TheYKcid wrote: »
    Reach without Master's does really poor damage, though. Poor enough that I'd just go with spammable + Cage, honestly. The reliable CC is worth more in this comparison.

    But moreover, I see no reason to run elewep + vanilla reach in the first place. Sustain-wise, Master"s reach costs only 2091 mag, almost negligibly more than ele's 2000. Both are reflectable, so ele confers no advantage. And Master's frees up a barslot which can be used for magelight to boost ALL your tooltips, not just the spammable. Or just fill it with a utility skill of your choice.

    I was asking if it is possible to hit with elemental weapon with a skill on a next global cool down, say: elemweapon -> NO LA -> flame reach -> LA, so both reach CC + elem weapon hit all at once (and the curse too), followed by frag.

    If it is possible, it’s a bigger burst, but yes, it’s countarable by dodge and reflect

    Unfortunately, what you're suggesting does NOT work. The Elemental Weapon times out too soon. I believe if the window was increased to 2.5 seconds, it would work as desired. Even an extra 0.2 seconds might be enough.
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  • ak_pvp
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    CyrusArya wrote: »
    Yet again, sorc is seeing the largest nerfs of any class in the game. Yet I guarantee we won’t make it a week into wolf hunter before some baddie dies to a sorc and respawns on the forums groveling for more nerfs.

    Fucken lol.

    Now one of the best classes in game might go down to the 3rd/4th best class. Because their completely uncounterable well timable 41m hard CC no longer deals 2k dmg. Now, don't get me wrong they have gotten needless nerfs in a lot of places and like other classes, its less enjoyable.

    But sorc playstyle has stayed generally the same, because unlike half the classes in the game, it isn't under a constant vendetta by ZOS and works well in the meta.

    Edited for clarity.
    Edited by ak_pvp on July 30, 2018 1:44AM
    MagDK main. PC/EU @AK-ESO
    Best houseknight EU.
  • WreckfulAbandon
    WreckfulAbandon
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    ak_pvp wrote: »
    CyrusArya wrote: »
    Yet again, sorc is seeing the largest nerfs of any class in the game. Yet I guarantee we won’t make it a week into wolf hunter before some baddie dies to a sorc and respawns on the forums groveling for more nerfs.

    Fucken lol.

    Now one of the best classes in game might go down to the 3rd/4th best class. Because their completely uncounterable well timable 41m hard CC no longer deals 2k dmg. Now, don't get me wrong they have gotten needless nerfs in a lot of places and like other classes, its less enjoyable.

    But sorc playstyle has stayed generally the same, because unlike half the classes in the game, it isn't under a constant vendetta and works well in the meta.

    Might want to rethink or rephrase bolded part. Sorc haters have been some of the most consistent voices calling for nerfs in the forums since I've been here.
    PC NA

    All my comments are regarding PvP
  • Waffennacht
    Waffennacht
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    Sticking with Rune Cage
    Neloth wrote: »
    TheYKcid wrote: »
    Reach without Master's does really poor damage, though. Poor enough that I'd just go with spammable + Cage, honestly. The reliable CC is worth more in this comparison.

    But moreover, I see no reason to run elewep + vanilla reach in the first place. Sustain-wise, Master"s reach costs only 2091 mag, almost negligibly more than ele's 2000. Both are reflectable, so ele confers no advantage. And Master's frees up a barslot which can be used for magelight to boost ALL your tooltips, not just the spammable. Or just fill it with a utility skill of your choice.

    I was asking if it is possible to hit with elemental weapon with a skill on a next global cool down, say: elemweapon -> NO LA -> flame reach -> LA, so both reach CC + elem weapon hit all at once (and the curse too), followed by frag.

    If it is possible, it’s a bigger burst, but yes, it’s countarable by dodge and reflect

    Unfortunately, what you're suggesting does NOT work. The Elemental Weapon times out too soon. I believe if the window was increased to 2.5 seconds, it would work as desired. Even an extra 0.2 seconds might be enough.

    You gotta work it the other way around, then it works.

    Reach into LA into Elemental

    Reach (if lands) causes LA to land, Ele then triggers on Previously casted LA
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  • ak_pvp
    ak_pvp
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    ak_pvp wrote: »
    CyrusArya wrote: »
    Yet again, sorc is seeing the largest nerfs of any class in the game. Yet I guarantee we won’t make it a week into wolf hunter before some baddie dies to a sorc and respawns on the forums groveling for more nerfs.

    Fucken lol.

    Now one of the best classes in game might go down to the 3rd/4th best class. Because their completely uncounterable well timable 41m hard CC no longer deals 2k dmg. Now, don't get me wrong they have gotten needless nerfs in a lot of places and like other classes, its less enjoyable.

    But sorc playstyle has stayed generally the same, because unlike half the classes in the game, it isn't under a constant vendetta and works well in the meta.

    Might want to rethink or rephrase bolded part. Sorc haters have been some of the most consistent voices calling for nerfs in the forums since I've been here.

    That is true, a lot of pointless sorc hate here. But I meant by ZOS.

    Sorc in comparison to a lot of classes has it good in dev eyes. The second they lost frags it was replaces by a better ability in cage, and then given damage because people found reach spam more easy, and curses unnecessary nerf got turned into a buff.

    Meanwhile DK and templar stand your ground was nerfed out of existence. The ones there are play like discounted versions of other classes MagDK-MagNB and stamplar-bleed stamblade/sorc.
    MagDK main. PC/EU @AK-ESO
    Best houseknight EU.
  • TheYKcid
    TheYKcid
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    Returning to Master's destro
    Lord-Otto wrote: »
    You will need a damaging CC or an ult. We've had that situation in DB, but now we're even shorter on Meteor damage.

    I forgot about that last point.

    Meteor is relatively weaker now than in CWC/DBones since it doesn't benefit from the self-empower anymore. Which means a cage+meteor combo will be weaker than ever before once cage damage gets removed.
    Edited by TheYKcid on July 30, 2018 3:39PM
    PC/NA — Daggerfall Covenant — BGs, Kaalgrontiid
    Kalazar ChalhoubRedguard Nord Stamplar
    Kalaron Caemor — Altmer Magsorc
    Kalahad Cirith — Dunmer Magden
  • PhoenixGrey
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    Sticking with Rune Cage
    Was running rune cage ever since the skill existed.

    Can we have the stun back on frags please ? Tired of slotting garbage skills like reach / cage
  • Minalan
    Minalan
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    Sticking with Rune Cage
    Was running rune cage ever since the skill existed.

    Can we have the stun back on frags please ? Tired of slotting garbage skills like reach / cage

    We asked, they said no.

    What we’re trying for is a blast morph with a proc that stuns, but won’t have the 10% damage of a proc frag.
  • Biro123
    Biro123
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    Other (please specify)
    Minalan wrote: »
    Was running rune cage ever since the skill existed.

    Can we have the stun back on frags please ? Tired of slotting garbage skills like reach / cage

    We asked, they said no.

    What we’re trying for is a blast morph with a proc that stuns, but won’t have the 10% damage of a proc frag.

    Soo.. as blast stuns anyway, what will the proc do?
    Minalan owes me a beer.

    PC EU Megaserver
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  • PhoenixGrey
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    Sticking with Rune Cage
    Minalan wrote: »
    Was running rune cage ever since the skill existed.

    Can we have the stun back on frags please ? Tired of slotting garbage skills like reach / cage

    We asked, they said no.

    What we’re trying for is a blast morph with a proc that stuns, but won’t have the 10% damage of a proc frag.

    I would like the base damage of crystal shard go up by atleast 20% then. I am not sure a 13k ish tooltip frag along with curse and force pulse will bring anyone down to 20% health.
  • Takes-No-Prisoner
    Takes-No-Prisoner
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    Other (please specify)
    Biro123 wrote: »
    Mine is now incap.

    Sames

    I at least tried out the Rune Cage meta while it lasted. Wanted to see what the buzz was about. Learned a few things.
  • casparian
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    CyrusArya wrote: »
    Yet I guarantee we won’t make it a week into wolf hunter before some baddie dies to a sorc and respawns on the forums groveling for more nerfs.

    I'm convinced this happens because sorc's burst is the hardest to see for new players. Judging by animation and sounds that are easy to pick up on, it seems like you just explode all at once (even though the sorc or an experienced bystander can tell just how much went into creating said explosion). Contrast this to, say, a NB, where the Incap sound and the Bow proc are quite distinct and easy to tell apart, or a DK, where Leap and Lash/Executioner are completely different. This just creates the impression that sorcs are one-shotting people while other classes have to do more than one thing to get kills.
    7-day PVP campaign regular 2016-2019, Flawless Conqueror. MagDK/stamplar/stamwarden/mageblade. Requiem, Legend, Knights of Daggerfall. Currently retired from the wars; waiting on performance improvements.
  • Minalan
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    Sticking with Rune Cage
    Biro123 wrote: »
    Minalan wrote: »
    Was running rune cage ever since the skill existed.

    Can we have the stun back on frags please ? Tired of slotting garbage skills like reach / cage

    We asked, they said no.

    What we’re trying for is a blast morph with a proc that stuns, but won’t have the 10% damage of a proc frag.

    Soo.. as blast stuns anyway, what will the proc do?

    Instant cast proc, unless you really like sitting there for two miserable seconds channeling...

    All of this is academic however. ZOS isn’t changing frags. They’re probably making cage ‘dodgeable’. Which means it’s bad against dodge rollers, so you might as well go back to the reach meta because it’s much smoother.

    If the reach meta comes back, it’s time to respec magblade because they’re just SO much better at it.
    Edited by Minalan on July 31, 2018 10:13PM
  • Ankael07
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    You can still execute the Meteor + RG combo since everyone will block as soon as they see the Meteor coming, leaving themselves prone to Rune Cage. With the dodgeable change Sorcerers wont be able to spam RG from behind their zergs and allow everyone else to land hits.

    If you want me to reply to your comment type @Ankael07 in it.
  • Kadoin
    Kadoin
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    Sticking with Rune Cage
    Biro123 wrote: »
    Mine is now incap.

    I don't know about you, but I can't wait for a Cyrodil and BGs with only NBs. Everyone will be cloaked 100% :D Gonna be a fun patch...
  • Feanor
    Feanor
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    @ak_pvp

    That’s actually - if you want to use ZOS terms - the biggest “pain point” for Sorc. It’s the same 3 builds and play styles for four years now.
    Main characters: Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 46 - Flawless Conqueror (PC EU)Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)Other characters:
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