Disguising Vampirism - It's time

AhPook_Is_Here · July 2018

Thestephenmcraeub17_ESO wrote: »

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

Morgul667 wrote: »

I m always amazed by replies on this topic

Let people enjoy their character and hide vampirism if they want

There is no harm to others

I don't know, I think it's good people can still have opinions about some things in 2018, at least in video games. Opinions really don't shock me; not even ones that are against others having different opinions than whatever one clique has.

No one is saying people aren't allowed to have opinions. It's just that a weirdly large crowd of players has a baseless opinion that flies in the face of facts and logic and pretty much only stands to dictate how others play the game (which is the "don't let vampires hide it" crowd) based on some strange moral principles, as far as I can gather (moral principles that only exist when dealing with a purely fictional entity, mind you).

The "don't let vampires hide it" crowd is the most active-aggressive group of role-players I've ever seen. And it's fine for that to be their opinion, but that opinion should not influence the gameplay experience of others, especially others who don't share that opinon (which as it turns out, is most players).

Personally, I don't care what they do with it, it's zos' game. I see valid reasons on both sides of the argument, and I think from recent polls usually around 40% or more of the player base doesn't want the appearance to be a toggle, so depending on your definition of "most" this could be argued. The opinions I agree most with in this thread relate to vampire power and the need to play vampire to embrace meta builds. Removing the 10% regen and lowering mist-form's mitigation would go a long way to making vampire more of a choice than a requirement.

As to the appearance effecting other players' experience, it does have an impact on their game experience and immersion if vampires in a Gothic horror game don't look like vampires but look like suntanned super models. If it was a single player game where you didn't have to see other players than sure it wouldn't matter, but since it's not, everyone who has to participate is effected by a decision like this.

I also would like to say, I appreciate the developers integrity in approaching an appearance trade-off for a power trade-off, it's a common theme in a number of classic stories and it brings some gravity and depth to the game and player's choices.

Anyway, my opinion here isn't what I'm arguing, what I am arguing is the validity of various opinions and the right for people to have them regardless of how well they articulate them. I'm not a fan of groupthink.

JahneeO · July 2018

Eh, you want the benefits, you should put up with the look.

Vampires are undead, they should look undead.
Your choice.

Thestephenmcraeub17_ESO · July 2018

vonScuzzman wrote: »

Here is what I would like to see happen.

When you become vampire or werewolf you get a permanent entry in your quickslots to transform. When you are not in form you get no benefits and look normal. When you are transformed you get the look, no hiding it; werewolves look like werewolves, vampires look like vampires. Remove all transformation timers.

You choose when you transform back.

Both forms would require tremendous balance changes if this were to be implemented. WWs would have to be nerfed tremendously (as the assumption is that they gain very powerful abilities for a short amount of time) and vampires would have to receive a complete overhaul, as the skills currently provided are intended to be sued 100% of the time (passives, anyway, and I suppose the actives are supposed to if you're the devs, but it doesn't end up that way because very few players actually use vampire active abilities).

DedEmbryonicCell19 · July 2018

Maybe you should only look like a Vampire during combat? I mean we can look at Buffy the show, Angel and Spike can change back and forth when they please ..

Now at the end of the day if you're choosing to be a Vampire you need to accept everything that comes with it ..

Thestephenmcraeub17_ESO · July 2018

DedEmbryonicCell19 wrote: »

Maybe you should only look like a Vampire during combat? I mean we can look at Buffy the show, Angel and Spike can change back and forth when they please ..

Now at the end of the day if you're choosing to be a Vampire you need to accept everything that comes with it ..

Nobody is saying vampirism shouldn't have drawbacks. We take extra fire damage and extra damage from Fighter's Guild abilities. That is huge in PvP. The thing about the cosmetic drawback uniquely stupid is that systems exist in game to bypass EVERY SINGLE cosmetic feature of your character EXCEPT for vampires who want to look less 'undead.' It's nonsense that a 'normal' skin hasn't been added for vampires who want to look a certain way, either for roleplaying purposes or just general appreciation for appealing cosmetics.

(and mind you, throughout the history of vampires in all forms of folklore they appear in, they are capable of disguising their true form, which is how they are able to prey on their victims in the first place)

Ri_Khan · July 2018

Salvas_Aren wrote: »

Let the consequence be that vampires look different from mortals, but not uglier than a hagraven.

I'm seriously amused that it bothers you so much that vamp players are willing to pay crowns to get better looks.

Don't forget that the werewolf lord exists as a polymorph. If Cyrodiil vampire and werewolf lord were skins I would probably buy both.

But since this such a serious issue for you vamp haters, we can still stick to the necromancer skin.

So many assumptions being made here...this certainly isn't going to convince me otherwise.

AuraNebula · July 2018

Ugly monster helm that does awesome damage, you can hide it.
Ugly armor that gives you great stats, you can hide it.
Ugly Vampire that gives you recovery...stop whining people are supposed to know your a vampire!
I use my Mazz skin to hide it, but would love to see my normal skin again and be able to wear the Psijic tattoos without having my Mazz skin underneath.

adriant1978 · July 2018

Can someone on the anti side of this argument explain what would be the negative consequences (to them personally or to the game as a whole) of an option to hide vampire visuals would be?

Is it something to do with PvP and not knowing who the vamps are so that you can slot your fire damage and Dawnbreaker? If so, would you be OK with it if it were disabled in PvP?

If it's from a lore/immersion/RP perspective, how do you explain Verandis Ravenwatch?

Aliyavana · July 2018

Ri_Khan wrote: »

All I ever hear from this argument is that you all want the benefits but don't want to suffer all the consequences. The cosmetic disfigurement is a part of the package. If it bothers you so much, don't be a vampire. Nobody's forcing you to play that role.

Don't use costumes and outfits

Aliyavana · July 2018

JahneeO wrote: »

Eh, you want the benefits, you should put up with the look.

Vampires are undead, they should look undead.
Your choice.

Don't hide your gear with costumes and outfits

DuskMarine · July 2018

Aliyavana wrote: »

JahneeO wrote: »

Eh, you want the benefits, you should put up with the look.

Vampires are undead, they should look undead.
Your choice.

Don't hide your gear with costumes and outfits

put on necromancer skin itll give you regular skin and make your look awesome while doing it.

Eeri_Ravencaw · July 2018

Aliyavana wrote: »

Eeri_Ravencaw wrote: »

Aren't vampires supposed to die in sunlight?

That's already a huge advantage in ESO.

this is tamriel, multiple strains of vampirism exist in it and the strain we are in eso can survive in sunlight

You vamps keep referring lore that vamps can disguise themselves. Well the lore also says vampire dies in sunlight. ESO already plays nice and let you live in day light but no you want everything nice plus the power without any drawbacks. That seems greedy to me.

idk · July 2018

jlmurra2 wrote: »

Aliyavana wrote: »

To people against hiding vamparism, don't hide your gear which provides gameplay benefits behind costumes or outfits, or skin behind skins

This is an excellent point. Costumes, outfits, polymorphs, and skins would have to only be visible to the player equipping them to correct this issue.

Pretty much was not her point.

And it would also defeat the purpose behind all of that, hence reduce sales in the crown store and make earned trophies value meaningless.

So that will not happen for both of those very good reasons.

nnargun · July 2018

Guys, the point here is that it is in fact hideable already. Being able to hide it is obviously intended by ZOS. People are just asking for a less intrusive way than having to put a skin or morph on. Any argument you make up against this just makes you look kinda dim.

TheShadowScout · July 2018

I think the main point here is, if Count Ravenwatch can hide his vampirism without some extra costume, so should players. Especially now that people can hide their gear through the outfit system, make their plate mail appear prisoner rags and their bleedy axes like daggers or whatever...

In my opinion, the best way would be by adding a toggleable "Masquerade" skill to the vampire toolbox that lowers vampirism stage by one when activated, thus making a well fed vampire appear like a normal mortal... Then everyone can choose if they want to let their beast show, or pretend for a bit.
And masquerading as mortal -would- have the drawback of sacrificing a skill slot for, so vampires would most likely drop the pretense when they wanted to get serious... (as count Ravenwatch does when things get more dire along the rivenspire storyline)

And then...
...some incentive to -use- that. Like... have the justice guards go after any recognized vampire with stakes and torches! And giving NPCs a chance to recognize someone is not just sickly looking, but actually a bloodsucking fiend depending on stage... let's say, 20% at stage 1, 40% at stage 2, 80% at stage 3 and automatic at stage four... and if recognized, guards will attack, vendors refuse to deal with the monster and citizens call for the guard, etc. (I am tempted to wish they would even befome PvPble, tho I know that would not be wanted by ZOS...)

Same for werewolves who transform in town, really.

In cyrodil of course things might be a little different. "Don't ask, don't tell" would be the word I presume.

Of course, there is something else that needs adding then... some "vampires only" club, much like the outlaw refugee, only "Vampy only club", where vampires can gather and socialize, sip from willing goth groupie NPCs and be among their own kind and such... possibly even get a vendor that might sell vampire specific gear or have crafting stations for such... it could be an coldharbour instance or a teleport gate to some secluded location, reachable from the places you get to a certain sanctuary during your vampire initiation quest... hell, possibly even reuse that one with a redesign?

Of course, I personally would love to see more other vampire clichés pop up in ESO.
Like for example...
...reduced swimming speed, make then shy away from all that "running water". Possibly even a automatic magica drain while in water (that is the classical reason why supernatural creatures often have trouble with running water, as some legends have it disrupting their magica flow. Same with thresholds when uninvited.)
...and definitely not getting any benefits from food buffs...

Indeed, playing the "mystery meat" animation whenever a vam tries to nom on such a thing instead of drinking from a maidens neck or whatever...
...and then... a "charm" ability, that lets them drink from a "civilian" NPC without it being assault (as long as noone else sees them do it)
...and... an alchemical bottle they can conserve blood in, in case they get a bit peckish during a dungeon run where no hot blooded crteatures to snack on might be found.
...and... possibly even a option to feed from a willing player (come on, we all know there are people who woudl totally roleplay that thing...)

And finally... an option for dark brotherhood vamps to combine their feeding and their murder-stabbing into one "Bite of Woe" that counts for both assassinations and bloodsuckings! With some "classic hollywood vampire" feeding animations!

SickleCider · July 2018

Forgive me for a little copy-paste from an earlier comment:

I say this every time and I'm going to say it again: I find it a bit insensitive that POC turn linen white when they're vampires. I think the textures need to be reworked. There are other ways to make someone look undead.

Salvas_Aren · July 2018

I always wondered why a vamp needs to look like Ra-Netu kissed an Ultimate Blender.

Ok, give them paler skin. But why do Kahjiit turn all white except for the scalp hair?

TheShadowScout · July 2018

Salvas_Aren wrote: »

But why do Kahjiit turn all white except for the scalp hair?

If that "body hair looses color" held true for humans and elves as well... would not vampires -beards- also go white???

Kimda · July 2018

Stage 1 isn't so bad, but I still want it to look normal skin, when no vampire benefits are used.

Aliyavana · July 2018

Eeri_Ravencaw wrote: »

Aliyavana wrote: »

Eeri_Ravencaw wrote: »

Aren't vampires supposed to die in sunlight?

That's already a huge advantage in ESO.

this is tamriel, multiple strains of vampirism exist in it and the strain we are in eso can survive in sunlight

You vamps keep referring lore that vamps can disguise themselves. Well the lore also says vampire dies in sunlight. ESO already plays nice and let you live in day light but no you want everything nice plus the power without any drawbacks. That seems greedy to me.

Dont quote lore when you fail to state that there is different strains of vamprism

Eeri_Ravencaw · July 2018

Aliyavana wrote: »

Eeri_Ravencaw wrote: »

Aliyavana wrote: »

Eeri_Ravencaw wrote: »

Aren't vampires supposed to die in sunlight?

That's already a huge advantage in ESO.

this is tamriel, multiple strains of vampirism exist in it and the strain we are in eso can survive in sunlight

You vamps keep referring lore that vamps can disguise themselves. Well the lore also says vampire dies in sunlight. ESO already plays nice and let you live in day light but no you want everything nice plus the power without any drawbacks. That seems greedy to me.

Dont quote lore when you fail to state that there is different strains of vamprism

Let me spelll it out for you. ESO created strains to specifically let you live in daylight.

Korprok · July 2018

Smasherx74 wrote: »

Vampires should have their own skin which unlocks on receiving vampirism.

this, this! you just figured it out, it's a win win for everyone

Vercingetorix · July 2018

Living with a choice you made - it's time.

Thestephenmcraeub17_ESO · July 2018

Eeri_Ravencaw wrote: »

Aliyavana wrote: »

Eeri_Ravencaw wrote: »

Aliyavana wrote: »

Eeri_Ravencaw wrote: »

Aren't vampires supposed to die in sunlight?

That's already a huge advantage in ESO.

this is tamriel, multiple strains of vampirism exist in it and the strain we are in eso can survive in sunlight

You vamps keep referring lore that vamps can disguise themselves. Well the lore also says vampire dies in sunlight. ESO already plays nice and let you live in day light but no you want everything nice plus the power without any drawbacks. That seems greedy to me.

Dont quote lore when you fail to state that there is different strains of vamprism

Let me spelll it out for you. ESO created strains to specifically let you live in daylight.

Let me spell it out for you. Reference Oblivion and Skyrim and you will see that two very different kinds of vampirism exist in the world of the Elder Scrolls (Skyrim vampires did not take damage in the sunlight, by the way). ESO did not create anything that had not already been created before as it pertains to how vampirism in Tamriel works. Why lie about something that's so easy to disprove? It's a pretty braindead arguing tactic.

Edit: Also amazingly ironic that you misspelled the word "spell"

Aliyavana · July 2018

Eeri_Ravencaw wrote: »

Aliyavana wrote: »

Eeri_Ravencaw wrote: »

Aliyavana wrote: »

Eeri_Ravencaw wrote: »

Aren't vampires supposed to die in sunlight?

That's already a huge advantage in ESO.

this is tamriel, multiple strains of vampirism exist in it and the strain we are in eso can survive in sunlight

You vamps keep referring lore that vamps can disguise themselves. Well the lore also says vampire dies in sunlight. ESO already plays nice and let you live in day light but no you want everything nice plus the power without any drawbacks. That seems greedy to me.

Dont quote lore when you fail to state that there is different strains of vamprism

Let me spelll it out for you. ESO created strains to specifically let you live in daylight.

Spell* and skyrim vampires didn't take damage in sunlight either. Every elder scrolls game has different strains in case eso is your first.

dodgehopper_ESO · July 2018

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Salvas_Aren wrote: »

But why do Kahjiit turn all white except for the scalp hair?

If that "body hair looses color" held true for humans and elves as well... would not vampires -beards- also go white???

I agree. I dont' like the way the Argonians and Khajiit get recolored. I've stated this before in the past.

On the matter of Vampires in general I still want an opposing anti-monster group to be part of in the same way I also wish I could have joined the Order of the Iron Wheel in the Thieves Guild DLC. Don't some of you get bored being a vampire every single time? On top of this, I find it thematically poor design that the class that feels the greatest need to be a Vampire is the class that was thematically most opposed to Vampirism. Strikes me as odd and I'm not the only one.

Thestephenmcraeub17_ESO · July 2018

Vercingetorix wrote: »

Living with a choice you made - it's time.

The problem with this line of thinking is that it leaves no room for change. It's a poor argument, and here's an example of why it needs to stop on these kinds of forums:

Person A: hey guys, I really feel like with the current balancing, mag warden is underperforming compared to other mag dps classes in PvE

Person B: dEaL wItH IT yOu mAdE YoUr cHoIcE

And then nothing productive happens because you aren't actually listening to the concerns of the other players, and even if you were, you aren't providing anything constructive. The "deal with it" has no place in a forum whose sole purpose is for players to provide feedback on how they believe the game could be improved.

idk · July 2018

nnargun wrote: »

Guys, the point here is that it is in fact hideable already. Being able to hide it is obviously intended by ZOS. People are just asking for a less intrusive way than having to put a skin or morph on. Any argument you make up against this just makes you look kinda dim.

I think you make a good point. However, in your point it also means Zos may intended for hiding it to be intrusive, obviously.

I think it is fair that we have a trade off of hiding vampirism by changing our appearance in a different manner as we currently have access to.

ZarkingFrued · July 2018

ArchMikem wrote: »

Aliyavana wrote: »

dem0n1k wrote: »

Wear a hood
Equip a skin...

no, we spend time designing our characters to look pretty,

But then you go and become a Vampire, knowing there's a visual consequence. I do though understand the desire to look exactly how you want to, but we can't have our way completely, and Vampirism is a special case. This isn't just hiding an armor piece or wearing a particularly covering Body Marking. You're supposed to be Cursed/Infected, your body reflects this infection and it's stages of severity. And honestly just be glad there isn't a stage where you actually turn into a Vampire Lord Gargoyle thing ala Skyrim or that one quest Boss in Eastmarch.

Besides if there's an exception made for Vampires, then who's to say the Werewolves won't chime in? What if they don't like looking like a giant dog on steroids but still want to use the skills?

You make valid points. However, werewolf is an ultimate that briefly and massively boosts your abilities and stats, while vampire is a constant buff/debuff. An ultimate animation like that cant be allowed to be hidden as you wont be able to counterplay. Before anyone says the same about vampires think, costume or full armor and you have no clue the person is a vamp anyhow.
Besides, werewolves look badass, and dont have to run around constantly looking goofy, just when they rage out. Just make us not have to look like an old man's *** anymore.

ZarkingFrued · July 2018

chimneyswift_ESO wrote: »

Vampirism is an in game choice. Key word there, "choice." Everybody and their brother knows that vampires (in nearly all forms of media) always look pretty awful and scary. If you don't want that look in a game where they exist in the lore...there are a few options:

1. Stay in Vampirism stage 1
2. Equip a skin
3. Wear some kind of armor, hat, or costume that hides the appearance
4. Polymorphs
5. Cure the vampirism and go back to being a normal soulless being on Nirn trying to fight the good fight against Molag Bal like the rest of us.

I myself am a vampire and I've never complained about the appearance cause I almost always follow these tips. I'm definitely not trying to be rude or anything, I'm just trying to provide some options. Also I want to reiterate the fact that vampirism is a choice I don't hear werewolves talking about how they wish they could look less "scary" in werewolf form

Vampirism definitely is not a choice if you want your build to stay competitive in cyrodiil. Some builds dont need it, others simply lose without it.