Promoting Small scale / solo play, while nerfing the zergs, minuscule.. thoughts?

Sigtric · July 2018

This is like me going into Whataburger and complaining there are burgers inside. Cyrodiil was designed for large battles.

ak_pvp · July 2018

I wouldn't call 8 players even small scale. That is a mini zerg since you can have players specialize. 4, sure. Because even a healer has to pull their weight for damage and executes. But 8, nahhh.

Thogard · July 2018

ak_pvp wrote: »

I wouldn't call 8 players even small scale. That is a mini zerg since you can have players specialize. 4, sure. Because even a healer has to pull their weight for damage and executes. But 8, nahhh.

FWIW we’re saying that 7 is the largest a group can get and still be considered “small” and 8-15 is large scale.

It’s all arbitrary though, and I can see why many people would think 4 is small scale.

CyrusArya · July 2018

Thogard wrote: »

FWIW we’re saying that 7 is the largest a group can get and still be considered “small” and 8-15 is large scale.

It’s all arbitrary though, and I can see why many people would think 4 is small scale.

There is a very different game play dynamic between below 4 and above 4. 4-man is definitely the threshold for small scale.

Personally, when the group frames change is where it loses the feel for me.

exeeter702 · July 2018

Any mechanics that work towards removing weaker players from their "safetey in numbers - i dont have to actually perform well" comfort zone is a plus in my book. But that is traditionally very hard to do in a pvp instance where shear player volume is fostered and encouraged. Its the epitome of casual, low stakes pvp.

Thogard · July 2018

If you really want to help small scalers without necessarily buffing ball groups, but you also don’t want to penalize new players or hurt Zergs outright, what we really need is resurrection sickness.

Rez sickness was a cornerstone of DAoC (the game that this game’s AvA is based on) and it gave a consequence to death. When a player was resurrected, for two minutes that followed that players damage, resistance, healing, etc were all reduced by a significant amount (I believe 20%). This meant that if a player was resurrected, they could reenter the fight but they wouldn’t be as effective as they had been before they died. Resurrection sickness stacked so if they died twice they’d have 2x the penalty.

Right now the biggest problem my group has vs Zergs is the rezzing. We kill them but because we’re significantly outnumbered we have to stay mobile - for small scalers to stay in once place means death. But when we kite we lose the ability to interrupt rezzes. It’s not as big a deal in terrain that you can loop around, such as towers, because we can run in circles and bash the rezzing as they come through... but it’d be nice to be able to small scale in different scenery as well.

Resurrection sickness would allow us to do that.

React · July 2018

Thogard wrote: »

If you really want to help small scalers without necessarily buffing ball groups, but you also don’t want to penalize new players or hurt Zergs outright, what we really need is resurrection sickness.

Rez sickness was a cornerstone of DAoC (the game that this game’s AvA is based on) and it gave a consequence to death. When a player was resurrected, for two minutes that followed that players damage, resistance, healing, etc were all reduced by a significant amount (I believe 20%). This meant that if a player was resurrected, they could reenter the fight but they wouldn’t be as effective as they had been before they died. Resurrection sickness stacked so if they died twice they’d have 2x the penalty.

Right now the biggest problem my group has vs Zergs is the rezzing. We kill them but because we’re significantly outnumbered we have to stay mobile - for small scalers to stay in once place means death. But when we kite we lose the ability to interrupt rezzes. It’s not as big a deal in terrain that you can loop around, such as towers, because we can run in circles and bash the rezzing as they come through... but it’d be nice to be able to small scale in different scenery as well.

Resurrection sickness would allow us to do that.

I totally agree that rezzing is a huge part of what is making outnumbered pvp (specifically solo vs 5+ or small scale (2-6) vs 10+) so un-manageable. It seems that the meta for these groups is to drop everything and pick up the first person that dies. It gets to the point where continually interrupting these rezz's punishes the outnumbered player heavily, while going for the rezz's has little to no consequence for the larger group.

While the resurrection sickness is an interesting concept and has worked in other titles, I personally think the best solution for ESO would be to simply place a camp-cooldown style timer on rezz'd players. Being resurrected by another player makes you unable to be resurrected again for 30/60/90/120 seconds, increasing with consecutive resurrections in a certain time frame after the first. While generally losing someone in outnumbered PvP means that person is not getting rezz'd, having 1/4 of your players return to a highly outnumbered fight with reduced combat effectiveness is more or less a death sentence for that player. Coming back with low resources is already a difficult position to be in, unless of course you outnumber your opponent 2:1.

Thogard · July 2018

Liam12548 wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

If you really want to help small scalers without necessarily buffing ball groups, but you also don’t want to penalize new players or hurt Zergs outright, what we really need is resurrection sickness.

Rez sickness was a cornerstone of DAoC (the game that this game’s AvA is based on) and it gave a consequence to death. When a player was resurrected, for two minutes that followed that players damage, resistance, healing, etc were all reduced by a significant amount (I believe 20%). This meant that if a player was resurrected, they could reenter the fight but they wouldn’t be as effective as they had been before they died. Resurrection sickness stacked so if they died twice they’d have 2x the penalty.

Right now the biggest problem my group has vs Zergs is the rezzing. We kill them but because we’re significantly outnumbered we have to stay mobile - for small scalers to stay in once place means death. But when we kite we lose the ability to interrupt rezzes. It’s not as big a deal in terrain that you can loop around, such as towers, because we can run in circles and bash the rezzing as they come through... but it’d be nice to be able to small scale in different scenery as well.

Resurrection sickness would allow us to do that.

I totally agree that rezzing is a huge part of what is making outnumbered pvp (specifically solo vs 5+ or small scale (2-6) vs 10+) so un-manageable. It seems that the meta for these groups is to drop everything and pick up the first person that dies. It gets to the point where continually interrupting these rezz's punishes the outnumbered player heavily, while going for the rezz's has little to no consequence for the larger group.

While the resurrection sickness is an interesting concept and has worked in other titles, I personally think the best solution for ESO would be to simply place a camp-cooldown style timer on rezz'd players. Being resurrected by another player makes you unable to be resurrected again for 30/60/90/120 seconds, increasing with consecutive resurrections in a certain time frame after the first. While generally losing someone in outnumbered PvP means that person is not getting rezz'd, having 1/4 of your players return to a highly outnumbered fight with reduced combat effectiveness is more or less a death sentence for that player. Coming back with low resources is already a difficult position to be in, unless of course you outnumber your opponent 2:1.

True. In an ideal world, I’d like your suggestion more. And it would help small scale more than mine. But ZOS wants to promote fun PvP for everyone, and staring at a corpse for a minute won’t be fun for new players waiting on a rez timer

TheDoomsdayMonster · July 2018

Sylosi wrote: »

ItsNebula wrote: »

There is a HUGE difference in 4 people chasing down 1 guy, to 40 people chasing down 1 guy. VERY, VERY large difference.

There is no meaningful difference, if it is okay for 4 guys to chase 1 guy down then it is okay for 40 to chase down 4, you think it is somehow "fair" or "skilful" for 4 guys to chase 1 down, but suddenly it becomes "unfair" and "unskilled" if 40 do it to 4, there is a word for that - hypocrisy.

ItsNebula wrote: »

And no, NB's and Sorcs probably have it worse for open world (When its comes to Xv1), as a LOT of NB's rely on cloak, and with sets like Sloads.. they cant cloak, and Sorcs rely on shields.. which keeping up with 25k worth of shields while taking prolly a good 30k+ DPS from 20+ different people, shields arnt strong anymore.

LOL, Sloads and cloak is a temporary thing that is getting fixed, as for 20+ different people that isn't smallscale so who cares, there is a reason NB and sorc have always been ez-mode for smallscale because they can disengage much more effectively than the other classes (or barely even have to engage on certain builds) so have low risk and high reward, which is exactly why there is no shortage of either them.

ItsNebula wrote: »

And yes, Zergs and horrible lag/game issues is why small scaling is dying off.

Smallscale dies off in nearly every RvR game for the reasons I gave previously, save your excuses, when your little group zergs down 1 guy like good little zerglings, then you are killing smallscale just as much as a zerg chasing down your little group is, take some responsibility for your actions.

Oh yeah, which do you play NB or Sorc?

Well said...

There are a lot of hypocrites in this game and your post perfectly exposes their hypocrisy...

Basically what they do to "own" is ok and acceptable, but if they get owned in a way they don't like its a problem that needs to be fixed...

LoL...

Thogard · July 2018

TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »

Sylosi wrote: »

ItsNebula wrote: »

There is a HUGE difference in 4 people chasing down 1 guy, to 40 people chasing down 1 guy. VERY, VERY large difference.

There is no meaningful difference, if it is okay for 4 guys to chase 1 guy down then it is okay for 40 to chase down 4, you think it is somehow "fair" or "skilful" for 4 guys to chase 1 down, but suddenly it becomes "unfair" and "unskilled" if 40 do it to 4, there is a word for that - hypocrisy.

ItsNebula wrote: »

And no, NB's and Sorcs probably have it worse for open world (When its comes to Xv1), as a LOT of NB's rely on cloak, and with sets like Sloads.. they cant cloak, and Sorcs rely on shields.. which keeping up with 25k worth of shields while taking prolly a good 30k+ DPS from 20+ different people, shields arnt strong anymore.

LOL, Sloads and cloak is a temporary thing that is getting fixed, as for 20+ different people that isn't smallscale so who cares, there is a reason NB and sorc have always been ez-mode for smallscale because they can disengage much more effectively than the other classes (or barely even have to engage on certain builds) so have low risk and high reward, which is exactly why there is no shortage of either them.

ItsNebula wrote: »

And yes, Zergs and horrible lag/game issues is why small scaling is dying off.

Smallscale dies off in nearly every RvR game for the reasons I gave previously, save your excuses, when your little group zergs down 1 guy like good little zerglings, then you are killing smallscale just as much as a zerg chasing down your little group is, take some responsibility for your actions.

Oh yeah, which do you play NB or Sorc?

Well said...

There are a lot of hypocrites in this game and your post perfectly exposes their hypocrisy...

Basically what they do to "own" is ok and acceptable, but if they get owned in a way they don't like its a problem that needs to be fixed...

LoL...

Most small scalers I know leave soloers alone. Not sure where this hostility is coming from. I’ve heard that on PC EU it’s dofferent and everyone attacks everyone else, but on PC NA most small scalers leave known solo players alone.

The problem arises when you come across certain solo players that are known for zerging. Once you get that reputation, you’re fair game.

If you’re solo and get killed by my group message me and say that you’re solo. If you’re solo and standing next to a bunch of other solos, just remember that we can’t tell who’s grouped with who and understand that if you’re a real solo you wouldn’t be next to people from your alliance anyway.

In my experience the people that whine the most about getting zerged down by small scalers while solo are soloers only in the sense that they tend to stand next to other soloers and then they all solo the same opponents together at the same time...

Actual solo players will make an active effort to stay away from other players in their own alliance so that nobody “adds” onto their fights. They also won’t add onto other people / groups fights. Those are the soloers we respect and do not steamroll.

IZZEFlameLash · July 2018

Thogard wrote: »

TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »

Sylosi wrote: »

ItsNebula wrote: »

There is a HUGE difference in 4 people chasing down 1 guy, to 40 people chasing down 1 guy. VERY, VERY large difference.

There is no meaningful difference, if it is okay for 4 guys to chase 1 guy down then it is okay for 40 to chase down 4, you think it is somehow "fair" or "skilful" for 4 guys to chase 1 down, but suddenly it becomes "unfair" and "unskilled" if 40 do it to 4, there is a word for that - hypocrisy.

ItsNebula wrote: »

And no, NB's and Sorcs probably have it worse for open world (When its comes to Xv1), as a LOT of NB's rely on cloak, and with sets like Sloads.. they cant cloak, and Sorcs rely on shields.. which keeping up with 25k worth of shields while taking prolly a good 30k+ DPS from 20+ different people, shields arnt strong anymore.

LOL, Sloads and cloak is a temporary thing that is getting fixed, as for 20+ different people that isn't smallscale so who cares, there is a reason NB and sorc have always been ez-mode for smallscale because they can disengage much more effectively than the other classes (or barely even have to engage on certain builds) so have low risk and high reward, which is exactly why there is no shortage of either them.

ItsNebula wrote: »

And yes, Zergs and horrible lag/game issues is why small scaling is dying off.

Smallscale dies off in nearly every RvR game for the reasons I gave previously, save your excuses, when your little group zergs down 1 guy like good little zerglings, then you are killing smallscale just as much as a zerg chasing down your little group is, take some responsibility for your actions.

Oh yeah, which do you play NB or Sorc?

Well said...

There are a lot of hypocrites in this game and your post perfectly exposes their hypocrisy...

Basically what they do to "own" is ok and acceptable, but if they get owned in a way they don't like its a problem that needs to be fixed...

LoL...

Most small scalers I know leave soloers alone. Not sure where this hostility is coming from. I’ve heard that on PC EU it’s dofferent and everyone attacks everyone else, but on PC NA most small scalers leave known solo players alone.

The problem arises when you come across certain solo players that are known for zerging. Once you get that reputation, you’re fair game.

If you’re solo and get killed by my group message me and say that you’re solo. If you’re solo and standing next to a bunch of other solos, just remember that we can’t tell who’s grouped with who and understand that if you’re a real solo you wouldn’t be next to people from your alliance anyway.

In my experience the people that whine the most about getting zerged down by small scalers while solo are soloers only in the sense that they tend to stand next to other soloers and then they all solo the same opponents together at the same time...

Actual solo players will make an active effort to stay away from other players in their own alliance so that nobody “adds” onto their fights. They also won’t add onto other people / groups fights. Those are the soloers we respect and do not steamroll.

It really depends on small scalers. Certain people will chase you to the end even if you were doing nothing or even bag after Xv1ing down.

Biro123 · July 2018

Thogard wrote: »

TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »

Sylosi wrote: »

ItsNebula wrote: »

There is a HUGE difference in 4 people chasing down 1 guy, to 40 people chasing down 1 guy. VERY, VERY large difference.

There is no meaningful difference, if it is okay for 4 guys to chase 1 guy down then it is okay for 40 to chase down 4, you think it is somehow "fair" or "skilful" for 4 guys to chase 1 down, but suddenly it becomes "unfair" and "unskilled" if 40 do it to 4, there is a word for that - hypocrisy.

ItsNebula wrote: »

And no, NB's and Sorcs probably have it worse for open world (When its comes to Xv1), as a LOT of NB's rely on cloak, and with sets like Sloads.. they cant cloak, and Sorcs rely on shields.. which keeping up with 25k worth of shields while taking prolly a good 30k+ DPS from 20+ different people, shields arnt strong anymore.

LOL, Sloads and cloak is a temporary thing that is getting fixed, as for 20+ different people that isn't smallscale so who cares, there is a reason NB and sorc have always been ez-mode for smallscale because they can disengage much more effectively than the other classes (or barely even have to engage on certain builds) so have low risk and high reward, which is exactly why there is no shortage of either them.

ItsNebula wrote: »

And yes, Zergs and horrible lag/game issues is why small scaling is dying off.

Smallscale dies off in nearly every RvR game for the reasons I gave previously, save your excuses, when your little group zergs down 1 guy like good little zerglings, then you are killing smallscale just as much as a zerg chasing down your little group is, take some responsibility for your actions.

Oh yeah, which do you play NB or Sorc?

Well said...

There are a lot of hypocrites in this game and your post perfectly exposes their hypocrisy...

Basically what they do to "own" is ok and acceptable, but if they get owned in a way they don't like its a problem that needs to be fixed...

LoL...

Most small scalers I know leave soloers alone. Not sure where this hostility is coming from. I’ve heard that on PC EU it’s dofferent and everyone attacks everyone else, but on PC NA most small scalers leave known solo players alone.

The problem arises when you come across certain solo players that are known for zerging. Once you get that reputation, you’re fair game.

If you’re solo and get killed by my group message me and say that you’re solo. If you’re solo and standing next to a bunch of other solos, just remember that we can’t tell who’s grouped with who and understand that if you’re a real solo you wouldn’t be next to people from your alliance anyway.

In my experience the people that whine the most about getting zerged down by small scalers while solo are soloers only in the sense that they tend to stand next to other soloers and then they all solo the same opponents together at the same time...

Actual solo players will make an active effort to stay away from other players in their own alliance so that nobody “adds” onto their fights. They also won’t add onto other people / groups fights. Those are the soloers we respect and do not steamroll.

These rules are stupid.. Yay! lets give the 'good' players an easy ride by not attacking them with other 'good' players - let them fight only scrubs so they can stay 'good'.. Yay for cliques and elitism!

BohnT · July 2018

Thogard wrote: »

TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »

Sylosi wrote: »

ItsNebula wrote: »

There is a HUGE difference in 4 people chasing down 1 guy, to 40 people chasing down 1 guy. VERY, VERY large difference.

There is no meaningful difference, if it is okay for 4 guys to chase 1 guy down then it is okay for 40 to chase down 4, you think it is somehow "fair" or "skilful" for 4 guys to chase 1 down, but suddenly it becomes "unfair" and "unskilled" if 40 do it to 4, there is a word for that - hypocrisy.

ItsNebula wrote: »

And no, NB's and Sorcs probably have it worse for open world (When its comes to Xv1), as a LOT of NB's rely on cloak, and with sets like Sloads.. they cant cloak, and Sorcs rely on shields.. which keeping up with 25k worth of shields while taking prolly a good 30k+ DPS from 20+ different people, shields arnt strong anymore.

LOL, Sloads and cloak is a temporary thing that is getting fixed, as for 20+ different people that isn't smallscale so who cares, there is a reason NB and sorc have always been ez-mode for smallscale because they can disengage much more effectively than the other classes (or barely even have to engage on certain builds) so have low risk and high reward, which is exactly why there is no shortage of either them.

ItsNebula wrote: »

And yes, Zergs and horrible lag/game issues is why small scaling is dying off.

Smallscale dies off in nearly every RvR game for the reasons I gave previously, save your excuses, when your little group zergs down 1 guy like good little zerglings, then you are killing smallscale just as much as a zerg chasing down your little group is, take some responsibility for your actions.

Oh yeah, which do you play NB or Sorc?

Well said...

There are a lot of hypocrites in this game and your post perfectly exposes their hypocrisy...

Basically what they do to "own" is ok and acceptable, but if they get owned in a way they don't like its a problem that needs to be fixed...

LoL...

Most small scalers I know leave soloers alone. Not sure where this hostility is coming from. I’ve heard that on PC EU it’s dofferent and everyone attacks everyone else, but on PC NA most small scalers leave known solo players alone.

It's the same on Pc EU, there are smallscalers that hate each other and will tryhard and the friendly approach that's much more common.

What's different on pc EU is the tryharding coming from zergs, Xv1 heroes is real here, thanks to certain pug leaders that inculcate them to chase any smallscaler until they die and to use any thing that makes Xv1 easier.
That leads to more solidarity with other smallscalers even when you hate each other, the hate towards the Zerglings is often higher

Thogard · July 2018

Biro123 wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »

Sylosi wrote: »

ItsNebula wrote: »

There is a HUGE difference in 4 people chasing down 1 guy, to 40 people chasing down 1 guy. VERY, VERY large difference.

There is no meaningful difference, if it is okay for 4 guys to chase 1 guy down then it is okay for 40 to chase down 4, you think it is somehow "fair" or "skilful" for 4 guys to chase 1 down, but suddenly it becomes "unfair" and "unskilled" if 40 do it to 4, there is a word for that - hypocrisy.

ItsNebula wrote: »

And no, NB's and Sorcs probably have it worse for open world (When its comes to Xv1), as a LOT of NB's rely on cloak, and with sets like Sloads.. they cant cloak, and Sorcs rely on shields.. which keeping up with 25k worth of shields while taking prolly a good 30k+ DPS from 20+ different people, shields arnt strong anymore.

LOL, Sloads and cloak is a temporary thing that is getting fixed, as for 20+ different people that isn't smallscale so who cares, there is a reason NB and sorc have always been ez-mode for smallscale because they can disengage much more effectively than the other classes (or barely even have to engage on certain builds) so have low risk and high reward, which is exactly why there is no shortage of either them.

ItsNebula wrote: »

And yes, Zergs and horrible lag/game issues is why small scaling is dying off.

Smallscale dies off in nearly every RvR game for the reasons I gave previously, save your excuses, when your little group zergs down 1 guy like good little zerglings, then you are killing smallscale just as much as a zerg chasing down your little group is, take some responsibility for your actions.

Oh yeah, which do you play NB or Sorc?

Well said...

There are a lot of hypocrites in this game and your post perfectly exposes their hypocrisy...

Basically what they do to "own" is ok and acceptable, but if they get owned in a way they don't like its a problem that needs to be fixed...

LoL...

Most small scalers I know leave soloers alone. Not sure where this hostility is coming from. I’ve heard that on PC EU it’s dofferent and everyone attacks everyone else, but on PC NA most small scalers leave known solo players alone.

The problem arises when you come across certain solo players that are known for zerging. Once you get that reputation, you’re fair game.

If you’re solo and get killed by my group message me and say that you’re solo. If you’re solo and standing next to a bunch of other solos, just remember that we can’t tell who’s grouped with who and understand that if you’re a real solo you wouldn’t be next to people from your alliance anyway.

In my experience the people that whine the most about getting zerged down by small scalers while solo are soloers only in the sense that they tend to stand next to other soloers and then they all solo the same opponents together at the same time...

Actual solo players will make an active effort to stay away from other players in their own alliance so that nobody “adds” onto their fights. They also won’t add onto other people / groups fights. Those are the soloers we respect and do not steamroll.

Yay for cliques and elitism!

We fight each other enough in GvG events that we know any small scale group adding onto another small scale groups' fight would be an instant win for hte group that adds. there's no challenge in it... and if we wanted fights that didn't have challenge, we'd just do large scale.

call it a elitist, but really we just want tough fights... and if we add on to another group's fights, it isn't a tough fight. Those groups do the same for us.

Take LoM for instance. If we see them fighting a zerg and they are in their small scale format, we won't hit them. They do the same for us. But it's not like we dont fight them... we've 6v6 and 5v5 scrimmed with them probably around 30 times in the last month. They know our group and we know theirs, and thats why we don't want to fight them when we have extra players in our alliance fighting them at the same time. It's not a challenge, and its not indicative of skill. Them adding onto one of our fights wouldn't be a challenge for them either.

It might be a clique but it's open to everyone. we're always trying to grow the smallscale community. just message iralia, paleorc, myself, drexl, rickter, etc.... we're always down to scrim.

lowlifer · July 2018

kikkehs wrote: »

Lol no, cyro is based on big grps, want too run small scale? Do a BG...

So I kinda agree with this, but I also agree 24 man groups should be nerfd. I was thinking that pvp grouping should be lowered. Obviously there are ways around this eg using guild chat to organise multiple smaller groups, but still its a step in the right direction.

Smaller groups = less lag, better game play, increases the chance for players to perfect their skills.

generalmyrick · July 2018

Thogard wrote: »

TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »

Sylosi wrote: »

ItsNebula wrote: »

There is a HUGE difference in 4 people chasing down 1 guy, to 40 people chasing down 1 guy. VERY, VERY large difference.

There is no meaningful difference, if it is okay for 4 guys to chase 1 guy down then it is okay for 40 to chase down 4, you think it is somehow "fair" or "skilful" for 4 guys to chase 1 down, but suddenly it becomes "unfair" and "unskilled" if 40 do it to 4, there is a word for that - hypocrisy.

ItsNebula wrote: »

And no, NB's and Sorcs probably have it worse for open world (When its comes to Xv1), as a LOT of NB's rely on cloak, and with sets like Sloads.. they cant cloak, and Sorcs rely on shields.. which keeping up with 25k worth of shields while taking prolly a good 30k+ DPS from 20+ different people, shields arnt strong anymore.

LOL, Sloads and cloak is a temporary thing that is getting fixed, as for 20+ different people that isn't smallscale so who cares, there is a reason NB and sorc have always been ez-mode for smallscale because they can disengage much more effectively than the other classes (or barely even have to engage on certain builds) so have low risk and high reward, which is exactly why there is no shortage of either them.

ItsNebula wrote: »

And yes, Zergs and horrible lag/game issues is why small scaling is dying off.

Smallscale dies off in nearly every RvR game for the reasons I gave previously, save your excuses, when your little group zergs down 1 guy like good little zerglings, then you are killing smallscale just as much as a zerg chasing down your little group is, take some responsibility for your actions.

Oh yeah, which do you play NB or Sorc?

Well said...

There are a lot of hypocrites in this game and your post perfectly exposes their hypocrisy...

Basically what they do to "own" is ok and acceptable, but if they get owned in a way they don't like its a problem that needs to be fixed...

LoL...

Most small scalers I know leave soloers alone. Not sure where this hostility is coming from. I’ve heard that on PC EU it’s dofferent and everyone attacks everyone else, but on PC NA most small scalers leave known solo players alone.

The problem arises when you come across certain solo players that are known for zerging. Once you get that reputation, you’re fair game.

If you’re solo and get killed by my group message me and say that you’re solo. If you’re solo and standing next to a bunch of other solos, just remember that we can’t tell who’s grouped with who and understand that if you’re a real solo you wouldn’t be next to people from your alliance anyway.

In my experience the people that whine the most about getting zerged down by small scalers while solo are soloers only in the sense that they tend to stand next to other soloers and then they all solo the same opponents together at the same time...

Actual solo players will make an active effort to stay away from other players in their own alliance so that nobody “adds” onto their fights. They also won’t add onto other people / groups fights. Those are the soloers we respect and do not steamroll.

Fascinating...

It establishes a sort of hierarchy...pecking order.

I have a question i hope can be answered!

One person clearly by themselves and not a know zerger is safe.
One person that is by themselves that has been known to zerg is not safe.

Zergs are just overwhelming numbers right?

If a small group...4? Overwhelms one person that is an evil zerger...doesnt that make the small group highly similar to a zerg?

Is there a sort of moral protection around a small group that protects them from criticism?

I love psychology and this is interesting!

Oh! One more...what is a "small group?" i said someone was zerging once and they seemed to get highly offended and said, "i'm NEVER in a group larger than 6!"

idk · July 2018

OP did not think this through very well.

Form 5 groups of 4 and have they run together.

The penalty is not applied and they still have they benefit of running as a large group.

Zos will not punish small groups that happen into the same area. That would be illogical.

Thogard · July 2018

generalmyrick wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »

Sylosi wrote: »

ItsNebula wrote: »

There is a HUGE difference in 4 people chasing down 1 guy, to 40 people chasing down 1 guy. VERY, VERY large difference.

There is no meaningful difference, if it is okay for 4 guys to chase 1 guy down then it is okay for 40 to chase down 4, you think it is somehow "fair" or "skilful" for 4 guys to chase 1 down, but suddenly it becomes "unfair" and "unskilled" if 40 do it to 4, there is a word for that - hypocrisy.

ItsNebula wrote: »

And no, NB's and Sorcs probably have it worse for open world (When its comes to Xv1), as a LOT of NB's rely on cloak, and with sets like Sloads.. they cant cloak, and Sorcs rely on shields.. which keeping up with 25k worth of shields while taking prolly a good 30k+ DPS from 20+ different people, shields arnt strong anymore.

LOL, Sloads and cloak is a temporary thing that is getting fixed, as for 20+ different people that isn't smallscale so who cares, there is a reason NB and sorc have always been ez-mode for smallscale because they can disengage much more effectively than the other classes (or barely even have to engage on certain builds) so have low risk and high reward, which is exactly why there is no shortage of either them.

ItsNebula wrote: »

And yes, Zergs and horrible lag/game issues is why small scaling is dying off.

Smallscale dies off in nearly every RvR game for the reasons I gave previously, save your excuses, when your little group zergs down 1 guy like good little zerglings, then you are killing smallscale just as much as a zerg chasing down your little group is, take some responsibility for your actions.

Oh yeah, which do you play NB or Sorc?

Well said...

There are a lot of hypocrites in this game and your post perfectly exposes their hypocrisy...

Basically what they do to "own" is ok and acceptable, but if they get owned in a way they don't like its a problem that needs to be fixed...

LoL...

Most small scalers I know leave soloers alone. Not sure where this hostility is coming from. I’ve heard that on PC EU it’s dofferent and everyone attacks everyone else, but on PC NA most small scalers leave known solo players alone.

The problem arises when you come across certain solo players that are known for zerging. Once you get that reputation, you’re fair game.

If you’re solo and get killed by my group message me and say that you’re solo. If you’re solo and standing next to a bunch of other solos, just remember that we can’t tell who’s grouped with who and understand that if you’re a real solo you wouldn’t be next to people from your alliance anyway.

In my experience the people that whine the most about getting zerged down by small scalers while solo are soloers only in the sense that they tend to stand next to other soloers and then they all solo the same opponents together at the same time...

Actual solo players will make an active effort to stay away from other players in their own alliance so that nobody “adds” onto their fights. They also won’t add onto other people / groups fights. Those are the soloers we respect and do not steamroll.

Fascinating...

It establishes a sort of hierarchy...pecking order.

I have a question i hope can be answered!

One person clearly by themselves and not a know zerger is safe.
One person that is by themselves that has been known to zerg is not safe.

Zergs are just overwhelming numbers right?

If a small group...4? Overwhelms one person that is an evil zerger...doesnt that make the small group highly similar to a zerg?

Is there a sort of moral protection around a small group that protects them from criticism?

I love psychology and this is interesting!

Oh! One more...what is a "small group?" i said someone was zerging once and they seemed to get highly offended and said, "i'm NEVER in a group larger than 6!"

It has less to do with how many are in your group and more to do with your attitude towards cyrodil / PvP when you come across a fight that's already in progress.

If you're running around and you see 5 people fighting 10 people, and the 10 people are in the same alliance as you, a small scaler and soloer will not become the 11th person in that fight. A zergling will.

If you see an outnumbered fight and jump into it to make it even more outnumbered, you get labelled as a zergling.
If you see an outnumbered fight and leave it alone, you're a small scaler/ soloer.

That applies for both soloers and small scalers. If you see a lopsided fight and make it even more lopsided, regardless of if you're solo or in a group, you get labeled a zergling.

If you're a smallscaler and a soloer, and you outnumber your opponents, you're not really a small scaler and/or a soloer. That's especially true if you hit an existing fight and cause it to be even more lopsided. It's just not honorable, not indicative of skill, and is a meaningless win.

But if all you care about is the alliance map, then sure... it makes sense. Thats how some people choose to play the game. And i choose to call those people zerglings.

generalmyrick · July 2018

Ah. Thanks!

This is helping me a lot, seriously.

Smallscaler and soloer is not what i call people...rather its not how i think of the game. Only "on my team" or not.

I would consider it dishonorable to not support a teammate and i consider pvp about winning the campaign and little else.

So now i see why their is such anger/hostility. The reason for hate messages and all.

Thanks again!

Jurand80 · July 2018

zos promotes massive multiplayer battles. zos wants ZvZvZ.

Thogard · July 2018

Jurand80 wrote: »

zos promotes massive multiplayer battles. zos wants ZvZvZ.

Is that what Zos’s Servers want though?

Berenhir · July 2018

This discussion is stupid. When you are blue or yellow and impose a threat to the Pact by killing Pact players or distracting them from playing the map you need to die. No matter if you need to be 1vXed or Xv1ed because you chose to build/train for that. It's AvA not PvP.

Ceepax · July 2018

kikkehs wrote: »

Lol no, cyro is based on big grps, want too run small scale? Do a BG...

Lol so wrong, u clearly haven't played the first 2 years

ItsNebula · July 2018

idk wrote: »

OP did not think this through very well.

Form 5 groups of 4 and have they run together.

The penalty is not applied and they still have they benefit of running as a large group.

Zos will not punish small groups that happen into the same area. That would be illogical.

Have them form 5 groups. They wouldn’t Be as organized. Especially without comms. Easy to juke a few and lose the other groups. They’re zerglings. Super easy to outthink them and out play them

Biro123 · July 2018

Thogard wrote: »

generalmyrick wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »

Sylosi wrote: »

ItsNebula wrote: »

There is a HUGE difference in 4 people chasing down 1 guy, to 40 people chasing down 1 guy. VERY, VERY large difference.

There is no meaningful difference, if it is okay for 4 guys to chase 1 guy down then it is okay for 40 to chase down 4, you think it is somehow "fair" or "skilful" for 4 guys to chase 1 down, but suddenly it becomes "unfair" and "unskilled" if 40 do it to 4, there is a word for that - hypocrisy.

ItsNebula wrote: »

And no, NB's and Sorcs probably have it worse for open world (When its comes to Xv1), as a LOT of NB's rely on cloak, and with sets like Sloads.. they cant cloak, and Sorcs rely on shields.. which keeping up with 25k worth of shields while taking prolly a good 30k+ DPS from 20+ different people, shields arnt strong anymore.

LOL, Sloads and cloak is a temporary thing that is getting fixed, as for 20+ different people that isn't smallscale so who cares, there is a reason NB and sorc have always been ez-mode for smallscale because they can disengage much more effectively than the other classes (or barely even have to engage on certain builds) so have low risk and high reward, which is exactly why there is no shortage of either them.

ItsNebula wrote: »

And yes, Zergs and horrible lag/game issues is why small scaling is dying off.

Smallscale dies off in nearly every RvR game for the reasons I gave previously, save your excuses, when your little group zergs down 1 guy like good little zerglings, then you are killing smallscale just as much as a zerg chasing down your little group is, take some responsibility for your actions.

Oh yeah, which do you play NB or Sorc?

Well said...

There are a lot of hypocrites in this game and your post perfectly exposes their hypocrisy...

Basically what they do to "own" is ok and acceptable, but if they get owned in a way they don't like its a problem that needs to be fixed...

LoL...

Most small scalers I know leave soloers alone. Not sure where this hostility is coming from. I’ve heard that on PC EU it’s dofferent and everyone attacks everyone else, but on PC NA most small scalers leave known solo players alone.

The problem arises when you come across certain solo players that are known for zerging. Once you get that reputation, you’re fair game.

If you’re solo and get killed by my group message me and say that you’re solo. If you’re solo and standing next to a bunch of other solos, just remember that we can’t tell who’s grouped with who and understand that if you’re a real solo you wouldn’t be next to people from your alliance anyway.

In my experience the people that whine the most about getting zerged down by small scalers while solo are soloers only in the sense that they tend to stand next to other soloers and then they all solo the same opponents together at the same time...

Actual solo players will make an active effort to stay away from other players in their own alliance so that nobody “adds” onto their fights. They also won’t add onto other people / groups fights. Those are the soloers we respect and do not steamroll.

Fascinating...

It establishes a sort of hierarchy...pecking order.

I have a question i hope can be answered!

One person clearly by themselves and not a know zerger is safe.
One person that is by themselves that has been known to zerg is not safe.

Zergs are just overwhelming numbers right?

If a small group...4? Overwhelms one person that is an evil zerger...doesnt that make the small group highly similar to a zerg?

Is there a sort of moral protection around a small group that protects them from criticism?

I love psychology and this is interesting!

Oh! One more...what is a "small group?" i said someone was zerging once and they seemed to get highly offended and said, "i'm NEVER in a group larger than 6!"

It has less to do with how many are in your group and more to do with your attitude towards cyrodil / PvP when you come across a fight that's already in progress.

If you're running around and you see 5 people fighting 10 people, and the 10 people are in the same alliance as you, a small scaler and soloer will not become the 11th person in that fight. A zergling will.

If you see an outnumbered fight and jump into it to make it even more outnumbered, you get labelled as a zergling.
If you see an outnumbered fight and leave it alone, you're a small scaler/ soloer.

That applies for both soloers and small scalers. If you see a lopsided fight and make it even more lopsided, regardless of if you're solo or in a group, you get labeled a zergling.

If you're a smallscaler and a soloer, and you outnumber your opponents, you're not really a small scaler and/or a soloer. That's especially true if you hit an existing fight and cause it to be even more lopsided. It's just not honorable, not indicative of skill, and is a meaningless win.

But if all you care about is the alliance map, then sure... it makes sense. Thats how some people choose to play the game. And i choose to call those people zerglings.

Now here's the view from the other side.

I play solo all the time - but I play for the map. Having an objective is important to me. This means that I'll often go to a resource or town alone - but if other friendlies are there, I won't run off to somewhere else to 'stay a soloer'. I will help my faction and take those objectives. Sometimes its only me vs X randoms. sometimes its 1v1, Mostly its me vs an organised small-scale guild group.
Also because I pay for the objectives, and I like large-scale open fights (that's why we're all in cyro and not bg's right?) I'll often zerg-surf too. I get no free pass.

If I see a 3v1 (1 enemies), while on route, I'll usually ignore them and carry on my way. If I see it around an onjective. I'll join in and fight for the objective.

If I see 10 randoms vs 5 orgainsed - there is no challenge there. The 5 organised are farming, plain and simple(and they are ALWAYS around an objective). I may join in to help the 10 if there is nothing else going on - or if they are being a huge pain (ie cutting off keeps, putting key keeps US etc.) - otherwise I leave them and move on. Not out of 'respect', but because it simply is not fun chasing a bunch of tanks around a rock/tower for 2 mins for them to all turn around and dump ulti's on you at the same time. 'Known soloers' cannot beat them - but they get a free pass.

If there are 5 organised trolling a resource, and I'm there alone - 9 times out of 10, they either only have one or 2 visible to lure people in then gank with the other 3 - or will chase you half way across the map(exaggeration). Mostly they are just there farming soloers who trickle in one by one. Then when a critical mass of them is at the spawn around the same time, they then complain about getting zerged.. Plenty of times I've been whispered 'Oh I see you brought the zerg..' etc.. I wish I had that much control over the zerg!! Or after the 'small group' rezzes, and whittles down the attackers, I've been chased and t-bagged by them ' for zerging'. Now you tell me - where is the toxicity here?
I often then see the same guild tags running in the middle of a zerg chasing me down.
Or then late at night, I see them trolling the whole faction - since there are no groups, just a few ungrouped randoms - and there is no other combat on the map.. No alternative but to log off or be farmed..
Hell, I've even see instances where the only combat was 2 organised 'small-man' groups on opposing factions working together to farm an even smaller number of randoms on the third faction!

Its also probably worth mentioning that many 'small-scale' groups now seem to be 6-8 strong rather than 3-4..

So basically, my play choices are to solo resources - get jumped by the organised 'small-man' teams of 6-8 - or to run with the zerg..

Surprise, surprise, I surf the zerg more and more - and just log off otherwise. Small-scale has effectively killed objective-based solo play.
Small-scale needs no help fighting greater numbers.

imho, Small-scale farming is bad for the game, and I can petty much guarantee that Midyear Mayhem will bring a lot more of it out of the woodwork to farm the influx of PVEers..

*Edit - and another thing.. How can a small-scale group complain about getting zerged when they won't fight each other? What do you expect the other faction to do, keep sending in randoms, one by one to get farmed?

IZZEFlameLash · July 2018

Ceepax wrote: »

kikkehs wrote: »

Lol no, cyro is based on big grps, want too run small scale? Do a BG...

Lol so wrong, u clearly haven't played the first 2 years

The thing is, they did advertise this game as huge pvp battle game. And initially, the server actually handled it very well. If you have seen Angry Joe's video about his Angry Army, you will get the scale it was intended for. Playing small scale is a choice as a player to put themselves in a disadvantaged position and the fun is in trying to overcome it. I am not at all for enforcing a certain playstyle upon people through penalties.

IZZEFlameLash · July 2018

Irylia wrote: »

Or participate in 6 man gvg’s (Sunday/wed 9est) an fun get your dose of small scale fights without the aids vs the various guilds also participating.

In cyro the outnumbered scenarios are the challenge and welcoming.
Where it crosses the line is when it’s no longer the players in that stack doing the damage/healing but their armor sets (sload/zaan/eg/calurion)

This is the best post in this thread btw.

ItsNebula · July 2018

Berenhir wrote: »

This discussion is stupid. When you are blue or yellow and impose a threat to the Pact by killing Pact players or distracting them from playing the map you need to die. No matter if you need to be 1vXed or Xv1ed because you chose to build/train for that. It's AvA not PvP.

How much have you zerged in the last week..?

ItsNebula · July 2018

Irylia wrote: »

Or participate in 6 man gvg’s (Sunday/wed 9est) an fun get your dose of small scale fights without the aids vs the various guilds also participating.

In cyro the outnumbered scenarios are the challenge and welcoming.
Where it crosses the line is when it’s no longer the players in that stack doing the damage/healing but their armor sets (sload/zaan/eg/calurion)

In this day and age of ESO... in zergs it’s only those sets doing the dmg... maybe a range CC here and there or a light attack or 2

Datthaw · July 2018

Biro123 wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

generalmyrick wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »

Sylosi wrote: »

ItsNebula wrote: »

There is a HUGE difference in 4 people chasing down 1 guy, to 40 people chasing down 1 guy. VERY, VERY large difference.

There is no meaningful difference, if it is okay for 4 guys to chase 1 guy down then it is okay for 40 to chase down 4, you think it is somehow "fair" or "skilful" for 4 guys to chase 1 down, but suddenly it becomes "unfair" and "unskilled" if 40 do it to 4, there is a word for that - hypocrisy.

ItsNebula wrote: »

And no, NB's and Sorcs probably have it worse for open world (When its comes to Xv1), as a LOT of NB's rely on cloak, and with sets like Sloads.. they cant cloak, and Sorcs rely on shields.. which keeping up with 25k worth of shields while taking prolly a good 30k+ DPS from 20+ different people, shields arnt strong anymore.

LOL, Sloads and cloak is a temporary thing that is getting fixed, as for 20+ different people that isn't smallscale so who cares, there is a reason NB and sorc have always been ez-mode for smallscale because they can disengage much more effectively than the other classes (or barely even have to engage on certain builds) so have low risk and high reward, which is exactly why there is no shortage of either them.

ItsNebula wrote: »

And yes, Zergs and horrible lag/game issues is why small scaling is dying off.

Smallscale dies off in nearly every RvR game for the reasons I gave previously, save your excuses, when your little group zergs down 1 guy like good little zerglings, then you are killing smallscale just as much as a zerg chasing down your little group is, take some responsibility for your actions.

Oh yeah, which do you play NB or Sorc?

Well said...

There are a lot of hypocrites in this game and your post perfectly exposes their hypocrisy...

Basically what they do to "own" is ok and acceptable, but if they get owned in a way they don't like its a problem that needs to be fixed...

LoL...

Most small scalers I know leave soloers alone. Not sure where this hostility is coming from. I’ve heard that on PC EU it’s dofferent and everyone attacks everyone else, but on PC NA most small scalers leave known solo players alone.

The problem arises when you come across certain solo players that are known for zerging. Once you get that reputation, you’re fair game.

If you’re solo and get killed by my group message me and say that you’re solo. If you’re solo and standing next to a bunch of other solos, just remember that we can’t tell who’s grouped with who and understand that if you’re a real solo you wouldn’t be next to people from your alliance anyway.

In my experience the people that whine the most about getting zerged down by small scalers while solo are soloers only in the sense that they tend to stand next to other soloers and then they all solo the same opponents together at the same time...

Actual solo players will make an active effort to stay away from other players in their own alliance so that nobody “adds” onto their fights. They also won’t add onto other people / groups fights. Those are the soloers we respect and do not steamroll.

Fascinating...

It establishes a sort of hierarchy...pecking order.

I have a question i hope can be answered!

One person clearly by themselves and not a know zerger is safe.
One person that is by themselves that has been known to zerg is not safe.

Zergs are just overwhelming numbers right?

If a small group...4? Overwhelms one person that is an evil zerger...doesnt that make the small group highly similar to a zerg?

Is there a sort of moral protection around a small group that protects them from criticism?

I love psychology and this is interesting!

Oh! One more...what is a "small group?" i said someone was zerging once and they seemed to get highly offended and said, "i'm NEVER in a group larger than 6!"

It has less to do with how many are in your group and more to do with your attitude towards cyrodil / PvP when you come across a fight that's already in progress.

If you're running around and you see 5 people fighting 10 people, and the 10 people are in the same alliance as you, a small scaler and soloer will not become the 11th person in that fight. A zergling will.

If you see an outnumbered fight and jump into it to make it even more outnumbered, you get labelled as a zergling.
If you see an outnumbered fight and leave it alone, you're a small scaler/ soloer.

That applies for both soloers and small scalers. If you see a lopsided fight and make it even more lopsided, regardless of if you're solo or in a group, you get labeled a zergling.

If you're a smallscaler and a soloer, and you outnumber your opponents, you're not really a small scaler and/or a soloer. That's especially true if you hit an existing fight and cause it to be even more lopsided. It's just not honorable, not indicative of skill, and is a meaningless win.

But if all you care about is the alliance map, then sure... it makes sense. Thats how some people choose to play the game. And i choose to call those people zerglings.

Now here's the view from the other side.

I play solo all the time - but I play for the map. Having an objective is important to me. This means that I'll often go to a resource or town alone - but if other friendlies are there, I won't run off to somewhere else to 'stay a soloer'. I will help my faction and take those objectives. Sometimes its only me vs X randoms. sometimes its 1v1, Mostly its me vs an organised small-scale guild group.
Also because I pay for the objectives, and I like large-scale open fights (that's why we're all in cyro and not bg's right?) I'll often zerg-surf too. I get no free pass.

If I see a 3v1 (1 enemies), while on route, I'll usually ignore them and carry on my way. If I see it around an onjective. I'll join in and fight for the objective.

If I see 10 randoms vs 5 orgainsed - there is no challenge there. The 5 organised are farming, plain and simple(and they are ALWAYS around an objective). I may join in to help the 10 if there is nothing else going on - or if they are being a huge pain (ie cutting off keeps, putting key keeps US etc.) - otherwise I leave them and move on. Not out of 'respect', but because it simply is not fun chasing a bunch of tanks around a rock/tower for 2 mins for them to all turn around and dump ulti's on you at the same time. 'Known soloers' cannot beat them - but they get a free pass.

If there are 5 organised trolling a resource, and I'm there alone - 9 times out of 10, they either only have one or 2 visible to lure people in then gank with the other 3 - or will chase you half way across the map(exaggeration). Mostly they are just there farming soloers who trickle in one by one. Then when a critical mass of them is at the spawn around the same time, they then complain about getting zerged.. Plenty of times I've been whispered 'Oh I see you brought the zerg..' etc.. I wish I had that much control over the zerg!! Or after the 'small group' rezzes, and whittles down the attackers, I've been chased and t-bagged by them ' for zerging'. Now you tell me - where is the toxicity here?
I often then see the same guild tags running in the middle of a zerg chasing me down.
Or then late at night, I see them trolling the whole faction - since there are no groups, just a few ungrouped randoms - and there is no other combat on the map.. No alternative but to log off or be farmed..
Hell, I've even see instances where the only combat was 2 organised 'small-man' groups on opposing factions working together to farm an even smaller number of randoms on the third faction!

Its also probably worth mentioning that many 'small-scale' groups now seem to be 6-8 strong rather than 3-4..

So basically, my play choices are to solo resources - get jumped by the organised 'small-man' teams of 6-8 - or to run with the zerg..

Surprise, surprise, I surf the zerg more and more - and just log off otherwise. Small-scale has effectively killed objective-based solo play.
Small-scale needs no help fighting greater numbers.

imho, Small-scale farming is bad for the game, and I can petty much guarantee that Midyear Mayhem will bring a lot more of it out of the woodwork to farm the influx of PVEers..

*Edit - and another thing.. How can a small-scale group complain about getting zerged when they won't fight each other? What do you expect the other faction to do, keep sending in randoms, one by one to get farmed?

There is so much truth in this that people just don't want to hear. Your probably just going to get labeled a "zergling" now for raining on the parade. But really though players need to stop policing the campaigns, you want your own set of rules, set up an event. I want to duel I don't wander cyro looking for another solo, I look and see if legend is doing a dueling night. I want small even # fights I hit up my guild and try to run some bgs. Cyro is open world fighting, anything goes, only zos rules. People need to stop expecting "fair" "even" fights in cyro, it's supposed to be an alliance war, and all is fair in love and war.