Promoting Small scale / solo play, while nerfing the zergs, minuscule.. thoughts?

ItsNebula

So we all know that since zergs like to chase 1-4 people from Daggerfall to Ebonheart, with 40+ people. Its stupid, but they do it. They have LOADS of damage because.. well... lots of people.

Proposing and idea to help us solo players / small scallers, and so that solo/small scale wont die off, as it slowly is.

In game mechanic is, 5+ people is considered a LARGE group. Whether you agree or not, it is. So, i was figuring, -1% damage done for every player past 4 players (Cyro only). So if youre in a 24 man group, everyone in it will lose a total of 20% damage done. To me, this seems fair, as you got literally 23 other people to rely on for damage. Imho, this will start to revive solo and small scale play.

I understand people might say "Then people just wont start grouping" and then thats fine, if they cant group, itll be easier to lose the zerg, since the zerglings wont see a crown to follow.
And sure, the small scallers that run the 5-6 man groups will get a reduction, but itll only be 1-2% which is nothing.
This is to affect the zergs, while also benefiting small scallers. Also promoting small scale, as rewarding them with no damage reduction if they run in a group of 4 or less.

Let me know of your thoughts on this.

Edit; Better title

Thogard

There needs to be a smaller healing cap on the zerg/AOE heals like healing springs, vigor, remembrance, and most importantly, earthgore. Cap each one at 6 people total getting healed. IIRC there is something like that already in place for most heals anyway.

AOE caps mean we can hit the Zergs all at once so they don’t mitigate damage by being togeter. We just need to make them lose their limitless healing through stacking.

Honestly I think the siege changes will help with this. It’ll empower the unorganized Zergs but hurt the organized Zergs.

Kikke

Lol no, cyro is based on big grps, want too run small scale? Do a BG...

ItsNebula

kikkehs wrote: »

Lol no, cyro is based on big grps, want too run small scale? Do a BG...

I knew a zergling wouldnt like this idea. LOL

ItsNebula

Thogard wrote: »

There needs to be a smaller healing cap on the zerg/AOE heals like healing springs, vigor, remembrance, and most importantly, earthgore. Cap each one at 6 people total getting healed. IIRC there is something like that already in place for most heals anyway.

AOE caps mean we can hit the Zergs all at once so they don’t mitigate damage by being togeter. We just need to make them lose their limitless healing through stacking.

Honestly I think the siege changes will help with this. It’ll empower the unorganized Zergs but hurt the organized Zergs.

That is true, but imo, its hard to do much when theyre a insane amount of players on you, snaring on cooldown, CCing on cool down with to much damage to count going out at once per second, i think having the small damage reduction would help, not only to nerf the large zergs, but also to promote small scale / solo play, as its slowly dying off

Kikke

zergling? No. But I still mean what I said.

ItsNebula

kikkehs wrote: »

zergling? No. But I still mean what I said.

Huge difference in small scale / solo player in World PvP and BG's.

Cyro isnt just meant for zergs, if it was, AoE cap would still be a thing.

BohnT

That's a bad idea.
First of all more players will always have an advantage they bring more damage, more heals, more buffs etc and they should never be punished for using them to their advantage.

By running solo or in a smallscale group we deliberatly put ourselves at an disadvantage by not bringing more people and that is something we have to accept.
If you want additional help during fights go and join a zerg yourself because that's where you probably belong with that mindset.

The biggest issue is that things punish you further for being outnumbered and that's what is wrong.
Things like poison cooldown being based on the caster rather than the prey, PotL/ Purifying light using all damage rather than only the casters damage and the list goes on.

Also solo and smallscale is still done by many players (at least on PC EU) the number decreased a lot yes but that's because the whole pvp population went down.
Back in 2014 we had ~600 players on each alliance, right now the number is maybe 150-180 (no exact data available) ofc that means that back then we had more players overall, meaning we also had more solo players and smallscalers also keep in mind that many XvY mechanics (y<<x) were introduced with DLCs in the past and they turned many players away.

ItsNebula

BohnT wrote: »

That's a bad idea.
First of all more players will always have an advantage they bring more damage, more heals, more buffs etc and they should never be punished for using them to their advantage.

By running solo or in a smallscale group we deliberatly put ourselves at an disadvantage by not bringing more people and that is something we have to accept.
If you want additional help during fights go and join a zerg yourself because that's where you probably belong with that mindset.

The biggest issue is that things punish you further for being outnumbered and that's what is wrong.
Things like poison cooldown being based on the caster rather than the prey, PotL/ Purifying light using all damage rather than only the casters damage and the list goes on.

Also solo and smallscale is still done by many players (at least on PC EU) the number decreased a lot yes but that's because the whole pvp population went down.
Back in 2014 we had ~600 players on each alliance, right now the number is maybe 150-180 (no exact data available) ofc that means that back then we had more players overall, meaning we also had more solo players and smallscalers also keep in mind that many XvY mechanics (y<<x) were introduced with DLCs in the past and they turned many players away.

I understand being solo and small scale youre putting youre self at a disadvantage.. if that, considering about 10 bad players is as good as 1 good player.
But the point is to try and bring back small scale / solo play. A lot of people hate to do it now, and a LOT of people who just played ESO for PvP have quit because theyre literally nothing but zergs in Cyrodill now.
And those players that have quit, are the same good players that dont like zerging. Having a 1% damage reduction per player past 4 will help try to increase the PvP pop. As a lot of players again, only play(ed) ESO for PvP solo/Small scale, but when you have 40+ people chasing you for 20mins straights dealing insane amounts of damage because they have 39 others helping them... is ridiculous.
20% dmg reduction max with a full 24man zerg isnt a huge killer to zergs, but more of a benefit to the PvP community.
And like @Thogard said, also having a heal cap for how many people you can heal at once is much needed.
With those 2 factors, it will grealty increase the amount of players coming back to PvP.

Lag, and zergs have killed a HUGE amount of the PvPers, and seem to be the 2 leading factors in why lots of people are quitting PvP, and ESO in general. 2 things if they dont fix, games like AOC and Crowfall wont even consider ESO a competition / competitor to there game once it releases.
Ik me, personally and defiantly a LOT of others will be quitting ESO once those 2 MMO's drop because ZOS cant seem to fix there game, ever.

Vapirko

Damage and healing cap, les do it. Make small scale great again.

Slick_007

ItsNebula wrote: »

kikkehs wrote: »

Lol no, cyro is based on big grps, want too run small scale? Do a BG...

I knew a zergling wouldnt like this idea. LOL

if be zergling you mean reasonable people, sure.

place an idea
idea gets disagreed with
abuse person who disagreed with you.

yep, this is how to get your idea across. i guess i should mention im being sarcastic just to make sure you get my point.

VaranisArano

Cyrodiil is designed for groups of 2 to 24 players (originally 8 to 24 players), says so right on the Alliance War grouping tooltip.

Groups of 5 and more players being a large group is a game mechanic largely for the purposes of exp and queueing for group dungeons and BGs. Not for Cyrodiil, where again, the gameplay is designed for groups of 2 to 24 players.

I get that you like small scale and that it sucks to see smallscale players leaving because of performance issues and feeling like they can't compete with disorganized zergs or organized guilds. However, I don't think that the answer is to nerf an essential part of Cyrodiil's gameplay - large-scale, large group combat.


Small scale groups of 5-6 players already benefit from AOE Cap removal (they get the most benefit with the least drawbacks when fighting outnumbered), the heal caps (healing caps at 6 players for most heals were not removed with the AOE caps), and as long as they pick their battles wisely, organised small scale groups can fight very effectively against disorganized zergs with greater numbers. Most organized small groups struggle against organized guild raids, and that's how it should be, in my opinion, since there's no reason for a smaller group to beat a larger group if both are equally well-organized.

BohnT

ItsNebula wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

That's a bad idea.
First of all more players will always have an advantage they bring more damage, more heals, more buffs etc and they should never be punished for using them to their advantage.

By running solo or in a smallscale group we deliberatly put ourselves at an disadvantage by not bringing more people and that is something we have to accept.
If you want additional help during fights go and join a zerg yourself because that's where you probably belong with that mindset.

The biggest issue is that things punish you further for being outnumbered and that's what is wrong.
Things like poison cooldown being based on the caster rather than the prey, PotL/ Purifying light using all damage rather than only the casters damage and the list goes on.

Also solo and smallscale is still done by many players (at least on PC EU) the number decreased a lot yes but that's because the whole pvp population went down.
Back in 2014 we had ~600 players on each alliance, right now the number is maybe 150-180 (no exact data available) ofc that means that back then we had more players overall, meaning we also had more solo players and smallscalers also keep in mind that many XvY mechanics (y<<x) were introduced with DLCs in the past and they turned many players away.

I understand being solo and small scale youre putting youre self at a disadvantage.. if that, considering about 10 bad players is as good as 1 good player.
But the point is to try and bring back small scale / solo play. A lot of people hate to do it now, and a LOT of people who just played ESO for PvP have quit because theyre literally nothing but zergs in Cyrodill now.
And those players that have quit, are the same good players that dont like zerging. Having a 1% damage reduction per player past 4 will help try to increase the PvP pop. As a lot of players again, only play(ed) ESO for PvP solo/Small scale, but when you have 40+ people chasing you for 20mins straights dealing insane amounts of damage because they have 39 others helping them... is ridiculous.
20% dmg reduction max with a full 24man zerg isnt a huge killer to zergs, but more of a benefit to the PvP community.
And like @Thogard said, also having a heal cap for how many people you can heal at once is much needed.
With those 2 factors, it will grealty increase the amount of players coming back to PvP.

Lag, and zergs have killed a HUGE amount of the PvPers, and seem to be the 2 leading factors in why lots of people are quitting PvP, and ESO in general. 2 things if they dont fix, games like AOC and Crowfall wont even consider ESO a competition / competitor to there game once it releases.
Ik me, personally and defiantly a LOT of others will be quitting ESO once those 2 MMO's drop because ZOS cant seem to fix there game, ever.

No it won't bring people back, any old smallscalers from pc EU i know from the early years that came back to give the game another chance and then stopped playing again left because the game is unplayable due to performance issues, they hate the zergs but nothing is more frustrating than being unable to make use of your skill because the game is a buggy lagfest.

Also it will more certainly *** off more players rather than bring people back into the game.
If people were intrested in smallscale they tried to do it but they aren't. It's people like you and me who enjoy it but the number of those people on all 3 factions, even with people who already left, all together is probably less than 10% of the entire pvp population.


If you want to have organized smallscale fights then ask @Thogard he is surely intrested when you're playing on pc NA.
If you want to go for some toddlersmacking then you'll have to take your time to find enough bad players who can't harm you
or you find a way to bring more scrubs into cyro.

That's something that will increase the number of smallscalers, the hunters follow the hunted not vice versa.

Tonturri

For one, I don't believe outright punishing people for grouping up is the right way to go. The same way I don't think giving players extra damage just because they don't have people with 'em, or based on by how many they're outnumbered.

I'd rather ZOS accomplish this by adjusting skills that make Xv<smaller X> too easy, and buffing skills that favor the smaller group. I do think that currently, a lot of things in the game favor the group with larger numbers and arbitrarily punish the smaller group...just cuz, without any actual 'this is a designated 'nuke 4 people at once' set.

Make some AoEs bigger (punishing big, stacked groups who have enough people that bigger area means more raid members taking dmg) while not really doing anything to smaller groups.

Make more skills that punish disorganized groups - not because they just happen to be grouped but because they're a zerg and thus aren't running important group utilities (like purge). For example, the fetcherfly swarm skill wardens have that spreads and can, if you let it run rampant, deal amazing DoT pressure to clustered groups. An organized group will cleanse that yucky bug stuff right off while bad zergs will (probably?) let it run rampant. For example, Power Extraction - the ignored brother (or sister) to Sap. They could change it to give a stacking damage buff each time you hit 5 or more people with it. There are a ton of unused skills in the game that could see beneficial changes to make them more useful to the smaller X but not making it useless - or punishing - for the bigger X.

Players complained for years that zergs got a dmg reduction just for having more members and being packed up (AoE caps). Reducing their damage for being packed up is the same exact concept - punishing/rewarding based purely on how many people you have. I'd rather defeat a larger group because of what -I- did and through skillful utilization and combination of tools, not because they got some arbitrary reduction in effectiveness just cuz they're more of them and less of me.

Point being, give small groups more stuff that isn't equally - or more - amazing when used by bigger groups.

VaranisArano

The best way to bring back small scalers (and everyone else) is to fix performance issues. Unfortunately, that's the part of the game we players have the least control over.

Tonturri

VaranisArano wrote: »

The best way to bring back small scalers (and everyone else) is to fix performance issues. Unfortunately, that's the part of the game we players have the least control over.

Also this. I once did a test - I tried to do Cyrodiil for at least an hour without a crash, loading screen, lag (not-normal lag that is, though it says something that a lower state of lag is a perpetual truth in Cyro), etc.

Not a single time did I make it to an hour. Not once. ESO is...what, going on 5 years old now, I think? And it totally lacks the polish that most games have at that age. The game STILL hangs when I'm trying to deposit stuff into a gbank faster than a snail's pace, and thinks still don't stack in the gbank (unrelated to pvp, but still >.>).

I'd definitely play a lot more if even most of the non-cyrodiil related, bad-performance/laggy issues were ironed out. Heck, even trying to log into the game is often an exercise in frustration - it should not take several minutes from the time I start to the game to the time I actually get to move around, not to mention the additional loading screens if I want to head into Cyrodiil.

ESO is a great game. If only I could actually play it.

Gilvoth

why do you guys keep asking to DESTROY what is realistic ?

if you attack a group (of more then 4 or more) of people you should die, that is realistic, lets keep it the way it is please stop asking for nerfs!

Tonturri

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

why do you guys keep asking to DESTROY what is realistic ?

if you attack a group (of more then 4 or more) of people you should die, that is realistic, lets keep it the way it is please stop asking for nerfs!

Numbers alone should not decide a fight - else have a lot less lag as two zergs crashed, the game calculated how many were on each side, and instantly deleted the one with lesser numbers.

Glad you mentioned realism though. Because it's currently not - a lot of mechanics and armor sets favor/buff up the group with more numbers (or put the smaller group at a disadvantage). They just...do. The advantage of greater numbers should be that they have...greater numbers and nothing else. This currently is not the case.

Edit: Also, this is TES. We have magic, dude, and a video game (where I can take a Dizzing Swing to the face and not have my organs burst free of their confines, leaving me dead about a second later). Your 'realism' has no power here.

CyrusArya

Solo and small scale PvP is supposed to be difficult. That's the entire point. What makes this format of play impressive at all in the first place is that a single player or a small group is able to overcome the numeric advantage through superior performance. So no thanks, id rather not dumb it down.

Group size should not confer any advantages or disadvantages beyond just the fact that you have more or less people. Period. No one should be buffed or nerfed on the basis of group size.

If you want to make small scale more appealing, the first thing to work on is the performance as lag is much less forgiving when you are already disadvantaged in a fight. Secondly, sets and mechanics that empower outnumbering parties at the expense of outnumbered parties (stacking sloads, resource poisons, earthgore etc) should be discouraged. That is about it.

Small scale is supposed to be hard, stop asking for handicaps.

Joshlenoir

ItsNebula wrote: »

So we all know that since zergs like to chase 1-4 people from Daggerfall to Ebonheart, with 40+ people. Its stupid, but they do it. They have LOADS of damage because.. well... lots of people.

Proposing and idea to help us solo players / small scallers, and so that solo/small scale wont die off, as it slowly is.

In game mechanic is, 5+ people is considered a LARGE group. Whether you agree or not, it is. So, i was figuring, -1% damage done for every player past 4 players (Cyro only). So if youre in a 24 man group, everyone in it will lose a total of 20% damage done. To me, this seems fair, as you got literally 23 other people to rely on for damage. Imho, this will start to revive solo and small scale play.

I understand people might say "Then people just wont start grouping" and then thats fine, if they cant group, itll be easier to lose the zerg, since the zerglings wont see a crown to follow.
And sure, the small scallers that run the 5-6 man groups will get a reduction, but itll only be 1-2% which is nothing.
This is to affect the zergs, while also benefiting small scallers. Also promoting small scale, as rewarding them with no damage reduction if they run in a group of 4 or less.

Let me know of your thoughts on this.

Edit; Better title

I like your thinking, but a legitimate complaint with this is that 20 man zergs fighting other 20 man zergs will never end because of how much healing and tankiness is in the game, unless they did a % healing debuffs too but I don't know how I feel about that.
I think what should happen is AP gains start to exponentially decrease the larger your group becomes, which will make Zerg emps almost impossible to crown, and discourage people from entering full raids just to get a kill.
Also, another way to remedy this is so add back a new and improved dynamic ultimate generation system that gives you more ult if you and your team / faction mates around you are outnumbered. This could work without the need of grouping with someone.
So if 10 un grouped pugs get swarmed by 30 randoms they will get a higher ultimate gen and so on.

Maura_Neysa

I don't think that would help much, and the Healing has already had a lot of fight back on the forums.

I think a better idea would be to affect visibility.
- Lore wise. A big army doesn't move quietly. People will know where it is.
- This would give an advantage to the small group allowing them to pick and choose there battles a little more wisely/effectively.
- Make it work like the current combat markers, or even in conjunction with them.
- Make each sword in the combat marker proportional to number of people,
- Or just make its so that any time a large group (24+?) passes into combat with either Players or NPC of an enemy faction a "zerg" marker will be placed on the map.

I also think buffing the NPC of a resource/keep based on underdog rating at that resource would help. If you bring 40 people to take an empty keep, make that keep spawn a few IC Flag Bss caliber NPC to counter them. 1 Flag boss per 10 people differance. Using the AP tick tracking system to define it. if 40 people will get AP for taking the keep and 20 people will get AP for defending it, then spawn 2 flag boss every [x] minutes with a Hard Cap of 2 (in this scenario) Give them huge tethers so that smart players can kite the out of the group (PvP tanks) Massively debuff them if the underdog ratio changes (or just despawn, though something smoother would be more desirable, even if they just turned tail and ran for the Keep door again.
All this would only apply to Keeps.


They just need to make it so that the most optimal AP gain is to take on groups that are at or near the same size as yours. Like +/- 5 people or yours. So that Zergs WANT to fight Zergs .

ItsNebula

Joshlenoir wrote: »

ItsNebula wrote: »

So we all know that since zergs like to chase 1-4 people from Daggerfall to Ebonheart, with 40+ people. Its stupid, but they do it. They have LOADS of damage because.. well... lots of people.

Proposing and idea to help us solo players / small scallers, and so that solo/small scale wont die off, as it slowly is.

In game mechanic is, 5+ people is considered a LARGE group. Whether you agree or not, it is. So, i was figuring, -1% damage done for every player past 4 players (Cyro only). So if youre in a 24 man group, everyone in it will lose a total of 20% damage done. To me, this seems fair, as you got literally 23 other people to rely on for damage. Imho, this will start to revive solo and small scale play.

I understand people might say "Then people just wont start grouping" and then thats fine, if they cant group, itll be easier to lose the zerg, since the zerglings wont see a crown to follow.
And sure, the small scallers that run the 5-6 man groups will get a reduction, but itll only be 1-2% which is nothing.
This is to affect the zergs, while also benefiting small scallers. Also promoting small scale, as rewarding them with no damage reduction if they run in a group of 4 or less.

Let me know of your thoughts on this.

Edit; Better title

I like your thinking, but a legitimate complaint with this is that 20 man zergs fighting other 20 man zergs will never end because of how much healing and tankiness is in the game, unless they did a % healing debuffs too but I don't know how I feel about that.
I think what should happen is AP gains start to exponentially decrease the larger your group becomes, which will make Zerg emps almost impossible to crown, and discourage people from entering full raids just to get a kill.
Also, another way to remedy this is so add back a new and improved dynamic ultimate generation system that gives you more ult if you and your team / faction mates around you are outnumbered. This could work without the need of grouping with someone.
So if 10 un grouped pugs get swarmed by 30 randoms they will get a higher ultimate gen and so on.

That could defiantly work, something imo needs to be implemented so that the people who do specifically play, or PLAYED ESO for small scale / solo PvP will come back, increasing the pop, and with increase pop will hopefully increase the pop in Shor downtimes.
I know theyre plenty of good players like you that dont really have a problem fighting against zergs (to a max) with a good 3-4 man group, but even the best of us have a limit when it comes down to 2 zergs and a half chasing down 3-4 people... and even just 1 for 20mins straights.

ItsNebula

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

why do you guys keep asking to DESTROY what is realistic ?

if you attack a group (of more then 4 or more) of people you should die, that is realistic, lets keep it the way it is please stop asking for nerfs!

80% of the time, zerg groups zerg because the players in them cant solo/run small scale, or cant hold there own.
Where as people (2 on this thread for a perfect example, @Joshlenoir @Thogard ) that put the time and effort into this bug of a game, learn the class(es), learn a proper build, learn how to kite, LOS, when to burst, and everything in between.. can beat those players that dont put that time and effort in.
Its literally who has the most skill, and knowledge of PvP. I would say, about 10 bad players, would be equaled to 1 good player (Good player being most known PvPers.. for being good - PC NA)

Adernath

No its a bad idea to reduce the damage.

In my opinion, an effective way to promote more small scale PvP in Cyrodiil is to add to the minimap the fog of war. Every force (in particular their strength) outside of the fog of war is revealed to the enemy. This is a classic way to provide an automatic indicator of the strength of the forces fighting each other while not revealing the entire map to promote surprise operations. Let me explain why this can promote small scale fights:

If it is more clearer how many people are fighting each other in certain areas, the opposite team can push towards those areas in which there are no people present, making a gathering of many many players in small spots highly vulnerable of all other areas.

Also this can dramatically value a single individual who is moving around the map and perform scouting operations. In order to avoid that people are sitting in stealth the entire time and revealing the minimap for their alliance, the fog of war should be revealed only if people are out of stealth for a certain period of time.

Sylosi

ItsNebula wrote: »

So we all know that since zergs like to chase 1-4 people from Daggerfall to Ebonheart, with 40+ people. Its stupid, but they do it. They have LOADS of damage because.. well... lots of people.

Proposing and idea to help us solo players / small scallers, and so that solo/small scale wont die off, as it slowly is.

In game mechanic is, 5+ people is considered a LARGE group. Whether you agree or not, it is. So, i was figuring, -1% damage done for every player past 4 players (Cyro only). So if youre in a 24 man group, everyone in it will lose a total of 20% damage done. To me, this seems fair, as you got literally 23 other people to rely on for damage. Imho, this will start to revive solo and small scale play.

I understand people might say "Then people just wont start grouping" and then thats fine, if they cant group, itll be easier to lose the zerg, since the zerglings wont see a crown to follow.
And sure, the small scallers that run the 5-6 man groups will get a reduction, but itll only be 1-2% which is nothing.
This is to affect the zergs, while also benefiting small scallers. Also promoting small scale, as rewarding them with no damage reduction if they run in a group of 4 or less.

Let me know of your thoughts on this.

Edit; Better title

Zergs aren't the problem, they are not why small scale in this game (and in many RvR type games) dies off, the problem is small scale.

Firstly you have terrible balance, because you have massive differences in regard to risk vs reward (hence why nightblades, sorcs, etc are pretty much always common in small scale) which are impossible to balance in a game mode like Cyrodil.

So the effect of that is that some people "give in" and switch to nightblade, magsorc, etc, or more commonly they simply stop doing small scale.

Secondly you have the level of hypocrisy, zergs do often chase small groups, but guess what most small groups do exactly the same thing, you see 4 guys chase down 1 guy or even worse simply gank 1 guy from stealth, then wonder why small scale dies.

Oh and incidentally in regard to zergs, quite often if they run down a handful of players, it is the same players who have "skillfully" been ganking the zerglings in their zerg builds trying to get to their zerg, so really people should not complain in many cases, but then that requires a bit of objectivity, logic and honesty.

ItsNebula

Sylosi wrote: »

ItsNebula wrote: »

So we all know that since zergs like to chase 1-4 people from Daggerfall to Ebonheart, with 40+ people. Its stupid, but they do it. They have LOADS of damage because.. well... lots of people.

Proposing and idea to help us solo players / small scallers, and so that solo/small scale wont die off, as it slowly is.

In game mechanic is, 5+ people is considered a LARGE group. Whether you agree or not, it is. So, i was figuring, -1% damage done for every player past 4 players (Cyro only). So if youre in a 24 man group, everyone in it will lose a total of 20% damage done. To me, this seems fair, as you got literally 23 other people to rely on for damage. Imho, this will start to revive solo and small scale play.

I understand people might say "Then people just wont start grouping" and then thats fine, if they cant group, itll be easier to lose the zerg, since the zerglings wont see a crown to follow.
And sure, the small scallers that run the 5-6 man groups will get a reduction, but itll only be 1-2% which is nothing.
This is to affect the zergs, while also benefiting small scallers. Also promoting small scale, as rewarding them with no damage reduction if they run in a group of 4 or less.

Let me know of your thoughts on this.

Edit; Better title

Zergs aren't the problem, they are not why small scale in this game (and in many RvR type games) dies off, the problem is small scale.

Firstly you have terrible balance, because you have massive differences in regard to risk vs reward (hence why nightblades, sorcs, etc are pretty much always common in small scale) which are impossible to balance in a game mode like Cyrodil.

So the effect of that is that some people "give in" and switch to nightblade, magsorc, etc, or more commonly they simply stop doing small scale.

Secondly you have the level of hypocrisy, zergs do often chase small groups, but guess what most small groups do exactly the same thing, you see 4 guys chase down 1 guy or even worse simply gank 1 guy from stealth, then wonder why small scale dies.

Oh and incidentally in regard to zergs, quite often if they run down a handful of players, it is the same players who have "skillfully" been ganking the zerglings in their zerg builds trying to get to their zerg, so really people should not complain in many cases, but then that requires a bit of objectivity, logic and honesty.

There is a HUGE difference in 4 people chasing down 1 guy, to 40 people chasing down 1 guy. VERY, VERY large difference.
And no, NB's and Sorcs probably have it worse for open world (When its comes to Xv1), as a LOT of NB's rely on cloak, and with sets like Sloads.. they cant cloak, and Sorcs rely on shields.. which keeping up with 25k worth of shields while taking prolly a good 30k+ DPS from 20+ different people, shields arnt strong anymore.

And yes, Zergs and horrible lag/game issues is why small scaling is dying off.
Lag? Zergs dont give a rats a*s about it.. why? Because they have a whole other 23+ people to rely on for damage.. where as a solo player, or small scallers, lag can mean the difference from winning the 1-4vX or losing it. By the time it takes for 1 skill to go off on the solo/small scale player, the zerg can have 20+ skills go off at once.
Lag is by FAR the #1 reason why solo and small scale is dying off, then after lag you have zergs being literally everywhere you go.

ItsNebula

Adernath wrote: »

No its a bad idea to reduce the damage.

In my opinion, an effective way to promote more small scale PvP in Cyrodiil is to add to the minimap the fog of war. Every force (in particular their strength) outside of the fog of war is revealed to the enemy. This is a classic way to provide an automatic indicator of the strength of the forces fighting each other while not revealing the entire map to promote surprise operations. Let me explain why this can promote small scale fights:

If it is more clearer how many people are fighting each other in certain areas, the opposite team can push towards those areas in which there are no people present, making a gathering of many many players in small spots highly vulnerable of all other areas.

Also this can dramatically value a single individual who is moving around the map and perform scouting operations. In order to avoid that people are sitting in stealth the entire time and revealing the minimap for their alliance, the fog of war should be revealed only if people are out of stealth for a certain period of time.

That is a good idea, however you have to remember.. this is ZOS. That's to complex for a multimillionaire (if not, then more) company to pull off.
Having something simple, such as healing caps, dmg reduction for large groups etc can help promote it, also something that there can be literally no way ZOS can mess it up.
Then again, if they did.. i wouldnt be surprised.

Adernath

ItsNebula wrote: »

Adernath wrote: »

No its a bad idea to reduce the damage.

In my opinion, an effective way to promote more small scale PvP in Cyrodiil is to add to the minimap the fog of war. Every force (in particular their strength) outside of the fog of war is revealed to the enemy. This is a classic way to provide an automatic indicator of the strength of the forces fighting each other while not revealing the entire map to promote surprise operations. Let me explain why this can promote small scale fights:

If it is more clearer how many people are fighting each other in certain areas, the opposite team can push towards those areas in which there are no people present, making a gathering of many many players in small spots highly vulnerable of all other areas.

Also this can dramatically value a single individual who is moving around the map and perform scouting operations. In order to avoid that people are sitting in stealth the entire time and revealing the minimap for their alliance, the fog of war should be revealed only if people are out of stealth for a certain period of time.

That is a good idea, however you have to remember.. this is ZOS. That's to complex for a multimillionaire (if not, then more) company to pull off.
Having something simple, such as healing caps, dmg reduction for large groups etc can help promote it, also something that there can be literally no way ZOS can mess it up.
Then again, if they did.. i wouldnt be surprised.

Hehe, well, I believe it is still not that difficult to implement and have more confidence in ZOS.

What I don't like with your suggestion is that 1. From my experience many zergs emerge without a group and 2. it would discourage any form of cooperative play.

Sylosi

ItsNebula wrote: »

There is a HUGE difference in 4 people chasing down 1 guy, to 40 people chasing down 1 guy. VERY, VERY large difference.

There is no meaningful difference, if it is okay for 4 guys to chase 1 guy down then it is okay for 40 to chase down 4, you think it is somehow "fair" or "skilful" for 4 guys to chase 1 down, but suddenly it becomes "unfair" and "unskilled" if 40 do it to 4, there is a word for that - hypocrisy.

ItsNebula wrote: »

And no, NB's and Sorcs probably have it worse for open world (When its comes to Xv1), as a LOT of NB's rely on cloak, and with sets like Sloads.. they cant cloak, and Sorcs rely on shields.. which keeping up with 25k worth of shields while taking prolly a good 30k+ DPS from 20+ different people, shields arnt strong anymore.

LOL, Sloads and cloak is a temporary thing that is getting fixed, as for 20+ different people that isn't smallscale so who cares, there is a reason NB and sorc have always been ez-mode for smallscale because they can disengage much more effectively than the other classes (or barely even have to engage on certain builds) so have low risk and high reward, which is exactly why there is no shortage of either them.

ItsNebula wrote: »

And yes, Zergs and horrible lag/game issues is why small scaling is dying off.

Smallscale dies off in nearly every RvR game for the reasons I gave previously, save your excuses, when your little group zergs down 1 guy like good little zerglings, then you are killing smallscale just as much as a zerg chasing down your little group is, take some responsibility for your actions.

Oh yeah, which do you play NB or Sorc?

usmguy1234

The easiest thing that Zos could do is restrict the terrain around strategic points to add more benefits to small groups. Heck even player positional barricades would be awesome and realistic to real war.

Inb4 fortnite comments.

anamenobodyelsehas

ItsNebula wrote: »

So we all know that since zergs like to chase 1-4 people from Daggerfall to Ebonheart, with 40+ people. Its stupid, but they do it. They have LOADS of damage because.. well... lots of people.

Proposing and idea to help us solo players / small scallers, and so that solo/small scale wont die off, as it slowly is.

In game mechanic is, 5+ people is considered a LARGE group. Whether you agree or not, it is. So, i was figuring, -1% damage done for every player past 4 players (Cyro only). So if youre in a 24 man group, everyone in it will lose a total of 20% damage done. To me, this seems fair, as you got literally 23 other people to rely on for damage. Imho, this will start to revive solo and small scale play.

I understand people might say "Then people just wont start grouping" and then thats fine, if they cant group, itll be easier to lose the zerg, since the zerglings wont see a crown to follow.
And sure, the small scallers that run the 5-6 man groups will get a reduction, but itll only be 1-2% which is nothing.
This is to affect the zergs, while also benefiting small scallers. Also promoting small scale, as rewarding them with no damage reduction if they run in a group of 4 or less.

Let me know of your thoughts on this.

Edit; Better title

I think I understand what your intention is, but I don't think it can be implemented. If the server detects that you are in a group of 24, sure, it is possible to nerf damage from anybody in that group. People will just run together without grouping, i.e., a zerg full of solo players, all coordinating via voice comms, and you'll still get zerged, and there won't be any way for the server to determine who to nerf.