What would make playing a tank fun?

Guppet · July 2018

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

Tanks in this game are actually far more involved and fun that other MMO’s. The whole block and dodge mechanics are great.

The issue is feeling like a slave to dps players. Your primary role should be hold aggro, stay alive & clump mobs.

Buffing others dps should not be a tanks job. Sunder aside.

Dps buffs should come from dps skills not others gear. Gear should only effect you. But that’s a big change to fix that.

Additionally survivabity needs removing from dps players, they should need the tank to take the damage and the healer to heal (healers are even less fun because of this currently).

Currently healers and tanks exist to enable dps, the devs need to pander less to dps players. Make them need healers and tanks to stay alive and you’ll find more people will fill those roles.

Also on the concept of tanks dps when solo, are you guys kidding? You trying to solo in tank gear or something? If your Stam equip Hundings and spriggans if your magic equip spinners and Julianos. It’s not hard to do. Your dps will be well over 10k. Just use one or two dps skills. This game allows flexibility use it!

I agree with everything except the last paragraph. As I already said, considering that tanks are the only role that actually has to switch gear to be able to do solo content, I find this proposition unreasonable and unfair, not to mention quite an imposition on players who are just leveling a tank. Overland content should be accessible to everyone regardless of the build. Hundings+Spriggans is exactly what I'm using for that, but at that point I'm no longer a tank.

No one is thier group role when solo. Healers are also not healers.

You can get decent actual tank sets that help soloing, Baharas, thunderbug, gravdars etc. But this is all end game. At end game, having extra gear is no problem.

When levelling if you want to tank why are you doing solo? You can ding level 10 and then not even need to leave an inn till level 50. Just queue dungeons and they pop in 5 seconds.

In no mmo game can a tank ever do decent single target dps while still being hard to kill. Any game that has any PvP has to follow this rule or they become kings in PvP.

Even the sets I mention above only do decent dps because that’s aoe. Single target has to remain low or PvP god situation happens.

But "healers who are not healers" can still do 20k single target DPS without switching gear.

I haven't played WOW for a while, but back in MOP they weren't particularly dominant (more like almost entirely absent) in PvP, while still doing about 1/2 of the damage of top DDs in typical raids, and they were hard to kill, pretty much like a blocking tank in ESO, but without the blocking costing any resources (armor cap was at 75%, if I remember correctly). The DPS scaled with unmitigated incoming damage and max. HP though, that's why leveling as a tank meant pulling half the zone with quest mobs and AoEing them down, resulting in about the same questing speed on average as a DD who could only take a few mobs without being overwhelmed. But tanks in ESO can't even do that, they have no AoE, no single target DPS, no scaling with incoming damage or HP, and even without all the buffs WOW single target damage of tanks was higher than the ESO equivalent. Tank DPS in ESO is simply pathetic.

And as I was suggesting before, buff PvE DPS by tying it to morphs that are currently undesirable for PvP. That way the "worst" case scenario (actually the best case scenario imo, because it would bring build diversity) would be that some people will start using morphs in PvP that were wholly absent before (like Power Slam).

And those tanking sets you're suggesting are not sets one would run to do any real tanking. I had a hybrid-y setup on my magplar (Vampire Cloak, Bloodthorn's Touch), the DPS was still laughable (~5k), and I couldn't do vFL hm with that setup.

Those sets I’ve mentioned have completed everything outside of trials on my NB tank. I have no interest in those trials. They are very much tank sets. All the vets even dlc even hardmodes.

I would very much call DLC hardmodes serious tanking.

You can’t fully compare to wow. I used to PvP as a prot warrior. Blocking doesn’t exist in that game and it’s huge here.

You can 100% pull 30 or more overland mobs with the sets I mention and watch them kill them selves, fairly quickly.

The biggest problem in this game is how survivable dps can be. They should not be able to pull 30 mobs and survive. It’s not that tanks lack dps, but that dps are too tanky.

Royaji · July 2018

Let me begin with saying that I disagree with the idea that tanks in their current state are boring to play. At least on the higher level of play like latest trials. I haven't been in a non-DLC dungeon in quite a bit.

For me a tank's role in ESO is being the field commander. The guy who oversees the whole fight and calls the shots and necessary mechanics. Tanks are inherent raid leaders since they stand right in front of the boss and can follow all the animations (even though I still wish some effects and particles were toned down - looking at you Liquid Lightning), they are usually the only person who is looking behind the DDs so a tank can call out mechanics/add spawns and tanks also don't have their crosshair glued to the target they are focusing on. All of this lets a good tank to not only be a meatshield or buff/debuff ***** but help out the group in a very unique and engaging way. Positioning and grouping adds is another improtant task that falls on tank's shoulders. The difference between proper positioning and just taunting everything and hoping DDs can kill stuff is very noticeable.

Now back to the original question. I strongly oppose to any mechanics that turn you into a meatshield. Just going somewhere to keep on being hit and heal yourself back up is not engaging gameplay in my book. Tank is a group role and separating a tank from the rest of the group is not something I'd like to see. Survivability is just a binary fail/pass test and does not allow you to distinguish an "ok tank" from a "great tank". Runnig around collecting orbs/circles/synergies/mushrooms with a boss in tug does not sound that appealing to me either. Especially since I believe that no attack in the game should one shot a blocking tank with 30+k resistances. It also reminds me of a node farming run with a train of mobs behind you...

Positioning challenges sound nice though. I like the idea of moving the boss to different buff circles and I especially like the idea of moving the boss to prevent additional mechanics. It feels a bit like"choose your difficulty" approach where a group with high DPS can keep the boss in one place and burn it while dealing with extra mechanics and a group with a good tank can move the boss around and take a longer fight but deal with less stuff happening around. Although the boss design has to be responsive for such fights. There is nothing more infuriating than trying to position a boss that stops in place and starts a 5 seconds casting animation every 15 seconds (Galanwe... you piece of...).

Another mechanic I like is tank swapping. There is something very satisfying about teamwork between two tanks during refabrication committee fight or hulk juggling on Rakkhat. Also teamwork based positioning mechanics like Negatrix and Positrox fight in HoF. Maybe some kind of similar mechanic in dungeons for tank and healer?

Overall i would like to see more focus on engaging teamwork based mechanics and less "extra heavy" heavy attacks (or "heavy" light attacks >> Olms) and navigating a minefield of ground AoEs and random stun orbs.

Oxalias · July 2018

I'm going to be that guy to remind everyone that tanking exists in Pvp too, and atm it's not fun

1: Un-nerf Blocking, it's depressing how fast it's drained in pvp

2: Stop adding in hard counters, the point of tanking is taking the brunt of a lot of peoples damage, not melt because of two guys with bleeds. DOTS

Sadly virtually no one cares about the state of pvp tanking anyways

BejaProphet · July 2018

I believe what would make tanking more fun for most people is if players learned how to do it. I know that sounds mean, but 90% of the complaints that I see on the forums about tanking reveal not a flaw in the game, but rather a player who doesn't know how to accomplish what they are wanting to do as a tank. And when you aren't successful, it isn't fun.

The complaints about tanks when soloing overland content, imo, is nonsensical when you really press the thinking. In solo'ing there is no such thing as a healer a tank and a DD. You are all three, you are the entire party, and you are nothing more and nothing less than what you've chosen to be. These roles only describe your goals in relation to working in unison with other players. Further, what they are saying is that they want to do better DPS, while making every choice against being strong in DPS. Literally every choice that is available to a 40K DPS damage dealer is available to them. LITERALLY EVERY CHOICE. Their DPS is not a byproduct of a class choice, or a role choice. They didn't choose tank at character creation and then be locked in by ZOS to eternally inferior damage. They are in complete control over their dps. So what they are really saying is that in the 100+ choices and combinations they make when building their character, they want to consistently choose tankiness instead of damage in every way, and yet they want a certain amount of damage as a consolation prize.

All that said, @AcadianPaladin 's post on this thread is an example of better quality. For example, ZOS should never put an taunt resist mechanic in a fight unless they have carefully thought about the role of the tank in that given fight. For example what was their plan for the tank against Drodda of Icereach? It is frustrating when I chain in a ranged creature and it is already running away before its done being dragged in. We do have to be pretty spammy with our roots/snares, and it would be nice to add another 1 or 2 seconds duration on those. Etc.

Anyways, the point I was hoping to make: Tanking in this game is extremely fun, ZOS has done a fantastic job with where tanking is right now, it does not need to be completely reimagined, only tweaked. I really hope ZOS doesn't drastically change it based upon complaints coming from players, who too often are complaining because they need to learn to tank better rather than a flaw in the game.

Woeler · July 2018

Tanks are totally fine where they are. You can play completely heavy classic tank and push it all the way down to the bare minimum, taking more and more responsibilities. Trial mechanics are ok (lets forget VAS here...). If the next not-mini-trial is like vmol, it should be excellent.

There are only two points from my side:
1. We need more intuitive sets for tanks. Make sets that contribute to a certain playstyle, not just sets that do raw boosts.
2. Never ever an aoe taunt. Like, never.

Tasear · July 2018

Oxalias wrote: »

I'm going to be that guy to remind everyone that tanking exists in Pvp too, and atm it's not fun

1: Un-nerf Blocking, it's depressing how fast it's drained in pvp

2: Stop adding in hard counters, the point of tanking is taking the brunt of a lot of peoples damage, not melt because of two guys with bleeds. DOTS

Sadly virtually no one cares about the state of pvp tanking anyways

We care that's why this thread exists.

Inarre · July 2018

I feel like anyone who thinks tanking is boring in this game has only tanked fungal grotto. There are so many interesting fights to tank in this game, especially later content like vmol where its a huge challenge to tank it WELL, and tanking it well really is the difference between your groups success and failure.

The only time I find tanking boring is trying to collect skyshards if I forget to swap to a more dps friendly gear setup.

BejaProphet · July 2018

Inarre wrote: »

I feel like anyone who thinks tanking is boring in this game has only tanked fungal grotto. There are so many interesting fights to tank in this game, especially later content like vmol where its a huge challenge to tank it WELL, and tanking it well really is the difference between your groups success and failure.

The only time I find tanking boring is trying to collect skyshards if I forget to swap to a more dps friendly gear setup.

I'm just guessing, but I think bored tanks probably comes from one or two problems.

1. They've never embraced the other aspects of tanking besides taunting the one threat. If they'd attempt to control the fight for their group on a larger scale they might be frustrated but they wouldn't be bored.

2. They play a perma blocking play style. Which is usually going to be boring.

Ironically, those asking for an AOE taunt are asking for the thing that would actually make it boring. Just my opinion.

ZeroXFF · July 2018

BejaProphet wrote: »

I believe what would make tanking more fun for most people is if players learned how to do it. I know that sounds mean, but 90% of the complaints that I see on the forums about tanking reveal not a flaw in the game, but rather a player who doesn't know how to accomplish what they are wanting to do as a tank. And when you aren't successful, it isn't fun.

The complaints about tanks when soloing overland content, imo, is nonsensical when you really press the thinking. In solo'ing there is no such thing as a healer a tank and a DD. You are all three, you are the entire party, and you are nothing more and nothing less than what you've chosen to be. These roles only describe your goals in relation to working in unison with other players. Further, what they are saying is that they want to do better DPS, while making every choice against being strong in DPS. Literally every choice that is available to a 40K DPS damage dealer is available to them. LITERALLY EVERY CHOICE. Their DPS is not a byproduct of a class choice, or a role choice. They didn't choose tank at character creation and then be locked in by ZOS to eternally inferior damage. They are in complete control over their dps. So what they are really saying is that in the 100+ choices and combinations they make when building their character, they want to consistently choose tankiness instead of damage in every way, and yet they want a certain amount of damage as a consolation prize.

All that said, @AcadianPaladin 's post on this thread is an example of better quality. For example, ZOS should never put an taunt resist mechanic in a fight unless they have carefully thought about the role of the tank in that given fight. For example what was their plan for the tank against Drodda of Icereach? It is frustrating when I chain in a ranged creature and it is already running away before its done being dragged in. We do have to be pretty spammy with our roots/snares, and it would be nice to add another 1 or 2 seconds duration on those. Etc.

Anyways, the point I was hoping to make: Tanking in this game is extremely fun, ZOS has done a fantastic job with where tanking is right now, it does not need to be completely reimagined, only tweaked. I really hope ZOS doesn't drastically change it based upon complaints coming from players, who too often are complaining because they need to learn to tank better rather than a flaw in the game.

Of course, let's argue about semantics, because that's very productive. You know what I mean when I say "tank". That is unless you haven't stepped foot into trials or vet DLC dungeons, in which case you're not qualified to talk about the state of tanking, because that magsorc who tanked your Spindleclutch 1 run is not a tank.

And I don't know how many times I have to repeat it until it gets through to people like you: tank is the only role that can't do overland content at a reasonable pace. Even if I don't make "every choice against being strong in DPS" and slot Caltrops, Noxious Breath and Venomous Claw, my DPS is still ***. But healers can take their meta healing gear, slap on 2-3 DPS skills and 2-shot everything.

How can anyone say with a straight face that people have to carry around additional gear sets to just be able to do quests?! It's like you're intentionally trying to prevent people from having fun.

Sophocles1 · July 2018

[quote="ZeroXFF;c

Also on the concept of tanks dps when solo, are you guys kidding? You trying to solo in tank gear or something? If your Stam equip Hundings and spriggans if your magic equip spinners and Julianos. It’s not hard to do. Your dps will be well over 10k. Just use one or two dps skills. This game allows flexibility use it![/quote]

I agree with everything except the last paragraph. As I already said, considering that tanks are the only role that actually has to switch gear to be able to do solo content, I find this proposition unreasonable and unfair, not to mention quite an imposition on players who are just leveling a tank. Overland content should be accessible to everyone regardless of the build. Hundings+Spriggans is exactly what I'm using for that, but at that point I'm no longer a tank.[/quote]

I went full on tank, So health instead of stamina. It seems like the attribute should have some value. So I see no DPS possibilities for me ever. It seems kind of silly. Make me hit super slow, something,but not a pillow fighter.

Doctordarkspawn · July 2018

As someone who played a Saptank when Tamriel Unlimited launched, and a Templar tank ever since imperial city when Saptank got nerfed because somebody hates fun (You know exactly who it is OP).

HEEEEEEEALLLLLLLLLLLLLTANKSSSSSSSSSS

I mean it. I love blood-knights, I love heal-tanks, I love self-sufficient tanks that can actually deal with their own healing and give group support at the same time. THIS IS HOW YOU TANK. And because of the fact it's just not viable in trials because of the fact alternate forms of mitigation to block are bad and you are bad for using them is primarily why I've NEVER set foot in trials aside from normal.

So yeah. healtanks. Make other forms of mitigation, healing or shields or whatever, -worth using-.

Also, in opposition to basicly everything else I see people saying. OVER-COMPLICATED MECHANICS THAT PUT STRAIN ON SUPPORT ROLLS SUCK. Allow me to explain.

Something like the mortieu fight in Scalecaller isn't all that bad or it wouldn't be if the VENTS COULDN'T BE ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE ROOM. Random elements in fights ARE BAD AND ALLWAYS BLOODY WILL BE. Whether it be the constantly random moving portals in Lord Warden's fight, or the friggin' Statues on Mazzatun that can decide the healer cant heal and thus the party wipes, ELIMINATING ANY RANDOM ELEMENTS WILL BE THE BIGGEST BOON TO TANKING. The worse the random-ness of the mechanics is, the less fun it's going to be to play, and the more frustraiting for tanks because our entire job is to account for things like this.

And finally, yes. Un-nerf tanks. Give us bracing back. Or better yet, let us regen stam while blocking. The first is much more likely, and quite frankly I'd like it back please, but either would do.

In closing, people say tanking is fine right now. And it is. I'd like bracing back so we have more build freedom but for what it is, it's good. It's just a point of adding viable options and different playstyles too tanking, and for gods sake stop throwing overcomplicated mechanics into all the new dungeons that just makes people exasperated. Tanks are fine, even if they could be expanded. It's the game around them, that needs looked at.

Guppet · July 2018

Sophocles1 wrote: »

[quote="ZeroXFF;c

Also on the concept of tanks dps when solo, are you guys kidding? You trying to solo in tank gear or something? If your Stam equip Hundings and spriggans if your magic equip spinners and Julianos. It’s not hard to do. Your dps will be well over 10k. Just use one or two dps skills. This game allows flexibility use it!

I agree with everything except the last paragraph. As I already said, considering that tanks are the only role that actually has to switch gear to be able to do solo content, I find this proposition unreasonable and unfair, not to mention quite an imposition on players who are just leveling a tank. Overland content should be accessible to everyone regardless of the build. Hundings+Spriggans is exactly what I'm using for that, but at that point I'm no longer a tank.[/quote]

I went full on tank, So health instead of stamina. It seems like the attribute should have some value. So I see no DPS possibilities for me ever. It seems kind of silly. Make me hit super slow, something,but not a pillow fighter.[/quote]

The sets I’ve mentioned will give you plenty of stamina or magica. You also don’t really need all your stats in health. I don’t l know about trials, but for everything else you can go full Stam or full magica with your attributes and still hit 35k health when in your tank gear, which is all you need if your good with mechanics. You could put 10-20 in health just while your learning mechanics if you like a bit of a cushion.

As for anyone complaining about needing extra gear to do dps, you can’t be any sort of decent tank. I have 4 or 5 tanking sets that I can switch between, having different sets is part of being an effective tank. Add in being able to switch up monster sets depending on how you feel and you should have half full bags, just with tank gear. Adding in one dps set is nothing.

BejaProphet · July 2018

@ZeroXFF 45.4k health, 59 attribute points into Health, 33k in both resistances, Ebon+Alkosh+a monster set that adds no dps. I love using random group finder for Pug'ing veteran DLC dungeons, and I use to tank in vet trials but stopped because of how much of a strain it was on my family for me to have multiple nights set aside for trials, so I don't do trials currently. And I am a sagitarius.

And to top all that. I solo quest in the exact same set up. The only thing I change is that I swap in venomous claw instead of range taunt, and I swap in shifting standard instead of warhorn, and I manage to quest with that DPS level and things die just fine. I have never spec'd this character for anything but optimal dungeon tanking since level 1, and I have zero complaints about the speed I kill things. I've solo'd the ebonheart pack and the dagger fall covenant lines, cold harbor, summerset, and all world bosses in those areas. I do the thing everybody says is ridiculous, I solo in the same set up I tank in.

Do I get to talk?

DaveMoeDee · July 2018

Seems fun to me.

When I PUG vet dungeons, I'm often spending more time stacking adds and locking them down than interacting with the boss. I can quickly taunt and apply debuffs quickly, but then I see a DPS soloing a single weak add or a group member running around far away with 3 adds chasing them. By chaining in adds or telling players to run adds to me so I can drop talons, there is always something to do.

I fail to see how this is any less interesting than doing rotations for DPS or healing.

I also don't get why the OP is talking about tanks in the 3rd person. Did someone who doesn't tank make a post about tanking?

Sophocles1 · July 2018

BejaProphet wrote: »

@ZeroXFF 45.4k health, 59 attribute points into Health, 33k in both resistances, Ebon+Alkosh+a monster set that adds no dps. I love using random group finder for Pug'ing veteran DLC dungeons, and I use to tank in vet trials but stopped because of how much of a strain it was on my family for me to have multiple nights set aside for trials, so I don't do trials currently. And I am a sagitarius.

And to top all that. I solo quest in the exact same set up. The only thing I change is that I swap in venomous claw instead of range taunt, and I swap in shifting standard instead of warhorn, and I manage to quest with that DPS level and things die just fine. I have never spec'd this character for anything but optimal dungeon tanking since level 1, and I have zero complaints about the speed I kill things. I've solo'd the ebonheart pack and the dagger fall covenant lines, cold harbor, summerset, and all world bosses in those areas. I do the thing everybody says is ridiculous, I solo in the same set up I tank in.

Do I get to talk?

Yes, you get to talk. Without sarcasm, you are the king of tanks and my personal hero.

LeagueTroll · July 2018

jaschacasadiob16_ESO wrote: »

Tanking is about responsibility.
Let the small kids dressed up like Barbies play DDs.

Very reasonable. I don’t think the fake tank issue is caused by tank not fun.

I think it’s more about less transparency on how dd is pulling their own weight. The information asymmetry is hurting tank and healer. Dd can easily see if tank and healer are bad, tank and healer has a harder time to gather evidence against subpar dd.

josiahva · July 2018

Checkmath wrote: »

Hey guys
Lately there was that discussion about tanks not liking to mainly being responsible for debuffing enemies/buffing the group. Tanks surely want to be useful in one way or another and I bet some tanks would get bored, if they only would have to taunt and hold the boss at one position. Players are differently experienced, so that one player may be very stressed by only taunting and surviving as a tank, meanwhile others play the buff ***, because there is just nothing else to do between taunting, evading damage and healing up.
So now for my question please just once forget about maximal dps of your group, about healing or the stable position of the boss. What kind of game or boss mechanics would make playing a tank exciting. Would you love to gather orbs or shards, which prevents you from being one-shotted? Would you like to have some tactical positioning of the boss, changes of fight places due to getting buffs or debuffs depending where the boss is placed? Maybe also constant change of places to even be able to do damage to the boss or preventing him from gaining additional mechanics when staying too long at one place? Or maybe some kind of task for the tanks like transporting an item from one place to another while tanking? It also could be sacrificing a lot of health for your group members by activating important synergies, which otherwise would kill your group when not activated (naturally it would kill everyone else but the tank when activating).
So what would make it more fun for YOU to play a tank?

There is plenty for any competent tank to do between holding aggro on enemies. As an example...here are a couple examples:

Typical Mob Fight:
1. The first thing I do is aggro the mob...I used to use Caltrops for this...but I have replaced that with time-stop which is more effective(though less DPS, not that that matters since my tank doesnt do enough to matter anyway).
2. While enemies are slowed and stopped, I then run around taunting all the things reasonably close.
3. After taunting everything close, I use chains to pull in stragglers and taunt them
4. I then use Talons to root whatever I can catch...this tends to prevent the ranged enemies from running off(though not always...if they do, I wait for their CC immunity to expire and chains them back in)
5. I will now take the time to cast igneous shield and bone shield, and chances are Imperium has also procced
6. If its a particularly deadly mob like some in vFH or vBF I will pop barrier to help the group survivability
7. By this time, the mob is usually dead, if not I will rinse and repeat a few of these things and maybe add in a buff like igneous weapons

Note: During this entire fight, chances are I haven't bothered to block even once unless there is some deadly enemy in the mob.

Typical Boss fight:(this changes depending on boss of course).

1. Taunt the boss and any dangerous enemies around(which ones I taunt depend on the particular fight, but will often grab them all)
2. Pop Warhorn(Sometimes Barrier instead if I feel that group survival or personal survival is higher priority).
3. Cast Igneous Weapons
4. Cast Circle of protection to gain minor protection, buff stam regen and reduce roll dodge cost.(Assuming boss allows me to stay still long enough to benefit anyway)
5. Cast Igneous shield and Bone Shield to shield the group(and hope the DPS or healer is close enough and has the presence of mind to use the synergy)
6. Imperium has usually procced again and the group averages about 20k in shields at this point, and if there are melee DPS they can stand close enough to take advantage of my circle of protection and hit the spinal surge synergy from bone shield.
7. Before entering the fight I have usually swapped out time-stop for meditation and because of the major protection passive I am only bothering to block things that will knock me out of meditation or things that are actually dangerous to a tank with 20k+ shields up all the time.

Anyway, the point is that this makes for a very active tanking style that never leaves me bored. I dont have a set rotation by any means, and the skills I am using are constantly changing depending on the particular content and boss(For instance, if fighting Chudan or Thorvukin or the last boss of vFH I have wings in my flex slot instead of one of the psijiic skills). If I am not doing anything else, with all the shields and other mitigation I am often able to rez in places no one else can(last 15% of the treeminder in vROM as an example) so there is always something for me to do. I couldnt play a tank if I tanked like I have seen other people do...taunt, buff and perma-block...what a terrible boring way to tank(though it is required for a few bosses, its a tanking style I do not enjoy).

Olen_Mikko · July 2018

I have NB Stamtank, that i have made and theorycrafted myself. It is by itself fun to play with.

Try something yourself, and not made by others. It is nice and fun to discover functioning builds you've made.

Grabmoore · July 2018

If you are not constantly doing stuff as a tank, you are slacking on doing your job. Tanking is very fun and enganging, just don't stand there and hold block while your Team is doing your work.

Crafts_Many_Boxes · July 2018

I miss tanking in older western MMOs like WoW and Rift. Those games actually have threat tables, so you can use AoE attacks and you'll actually gather up trash mobs naturally because of threat modifier passives.

To me, tanking isn't fun in ESO because it's TOO involved. When I tank, I want to be focused on 1) surviving 2) holding threat and 3) positioning / interrupting. There's like 7 other things to consider in this game, but that also depends wildly on the content you're doing and what type of pull you're doing.

And I get that something like fungal grotto 1 isn't hard to tank from a boss perspective, but trash pulls in this game are just so involved in a frantic, not-fun way. The whole mentality that "oh, just make sure to hold threat on the ones that hit the hardest" while the other half of the trash wails on the dps, is dumb. Like, incredibly dumb.

I started out tanking for the fast queue times, and it was nice and even as a scrubby tank we usually got through non-dlc vets just fine, but it was often very stressful and not fun at all. I'd rather run around questing / farming gear in open world for half an hour until my queue pops than queue up as tank, and THAT is the issue in this game and why there are so few tanks.

Guppet · July 2018

On a serious note I think that they need to look at ultimates. They scale with magica or stamina, which ever is higher. Why not let them scale off health too. Then tanks get impactful ultimates, it’s not like all our skills would scale with health, so it’s not going to break PvP.

idk · July 2018

Checkmath wrote: »

Hey guys
Lately there was that discussion about tanks not liking to mainly being responsible for debuffing enemies/buffing the group.

Considering debuffing enemies is generally a top role for a tank in MMORPGs it seems odd that some tanks would complain about this unless they did not understand fundamental basics of tanking. After all a taunt is a debuff and it is common in MMORPGs that tanks are reducing the damage of bosses and/or increasing the damage they do.

Have not heard solid experienced tanks complain about this.

kojou · July 2018

In general I like tanking, but I mostly get annoyed these days with resource drain as it currently is. I can manage it, but keeping my stamina bar with some green stuff in it at all times is a PITA for some fights.

For me tanking is most fun when it is dynamic, and I can control the fight and position things in such a way that I help the group. I love it when I find a way to use LoS and chains to pull everything together in a nice neat stack or find a new place to position a boss and render it harmless so the DDs can go full burn.

The least fun thing are fights where the boss or adds are un-tauntable or unmovable and the most I can do is provide buffs/debuffs, vigor, and stomp rocks.

DocFrost72 · July 2018

Okay, so this is gunna be long. Will spoiler long stuff and give the TLDR in the open.

Set variety

One of my personal biggest pain points is useful tanking gear. Tanks need a few things in varying order depending on the content. Tanks need health, armor, resource management devices, and group support.

A great example of a static tank set is ebon armory. It gives you a lot of helpful buffs like health and healing taken, and benefits not just you, but the whole raid with something everyone can objectively use. Awesome!

A bad example of a static tank set is footman's fortune. Not only does the 5 piece not really benefit your team, but on a tank with the way damage is calculated that 8% mitigation isn't really 8% mitigation, as it's already cut by your resists AND blocking. A better route? Give the bonus to the whole team, so while your increase is marginal the dps and healers get a cool bonus (exactly like ebon). Win for you, win for raid.

Active set types include things that make you perform actions to get benefits. I cannot think of a good active set currently floating around, THOUGH the new set that has maim attached to bashing an enemy that you have taunted is an example of a decent set, perhaps better suited with a different enemy debuff however (unless I read wrong and it applies major maim, in which case awesome set).

An example of a BAD active set would have to be alkosh. Dear gods do I freaking hate wearing this set. The 2-4 pieces and armor weight are counterproductive to tanking, period. The 5 pice is great for dps, and...that's it. It does not help me as the tank and does not benefit our healers. I am wearing a dps set so the dps can get pen. Gross. Suggestion? Have the armor (or a portion of it) removed from targets added to the tank or better yet the group! This makes it rewarding to try to seek and stack synergies to help both you and the group, aiding dps and survivability. Oh and for the love of the gods, put that 5 pieces on a heavy set with tank bonuses -_-'

Too many one shots.

Bosses should be the only ones with one shots, period (hi falkreath!). Having one shots should always be tied to mechanics, not "You die and then realize you should roll that telegraphed heavy attack: unlike every other heavy attack in the game." One shots should not be randomly aimed if they are not mechanically avoidable.

Example of a good one shot mechanic: flesh sculptor. Even if his target is random (he should always take the one that has aggro), he has a visual and audio cue, gives players time to react, and anyone can assist the person locked down. This actually rewards the tank for staying close and keeping the boss taunted, as your allies can recover and bash it off of you. It is aalso forgiving if you are off grabbing pus sacs when he does this, as you can bash the dps free.

A BAD one shot mechanic goes to the king of stupid one shots, banished cells I HM rilis XII. If your dps has a "normal" amount of health for group content (17kish) Rilis can, even when taunted and with no warning, turn around and waste your stam dps. No counterplay whatsoever ( not helpful that the dmg is not synced with the orb animation). Suggestion: have the orb be a one second channel a skillful tank can bash to stop OR EVEN if paying attention, reflect for a damage contribution.

Bosses without taunt need something a tank can do to be useful.

We've all been there, my friends. Tanking investigator Garen in WS I, or drodda in Direfrost, or selestrix in arx. It's not entertaining and, honestly, enfeebling to be unable to taunt. There are some exceptions to this, however. If the tank has something to do while the boss is wild and free, especially if their actions can save their dps and healer, you can still fulfill the role of tank, albeit in unconventional fashion.

Example: during the Drodda fight, perhaps the tank could be taunting incredibly tanky ice atronachs. It'd be really cool if her healing was first transfered into the atronach, then the atronach decided to walk to her to heal her. During this time, the tank could perhaps activate a nearby brazier for a special buff and return to "melt" the atronach temporarily, negating the healing. To work, this atronach would also need to be able to be taunted as it was hard hitting with its aoe frontal cleave attack. As a compensation, make the healing drodda receives stronger if you fail. (This is an example for both this dungeon and future ones).

Group aiding skills

This is probably the shortest suggestion I'll leave: dks have a lot of utility in fiery breath. Perhaps more stuff that benefits the group such as a skill that increases all armor ratings by x value for y duration, centered on you and affecting allies (like warden ability but not major/minor locked). A version of guard that would increase your skill costs by some value and lower allies' costs by a value could also be situationally valuable. Perhaps even make guard an aoe aura with one target outside the aura (only the one tethered retains the damage share).

Class identity in tanking

This one is a pipe dream, take it with a grain of salt. I'd like to see a situation where each tank is valued for different approaches towards tanking. Dk tank style is well noted: ultimates give resources to permablock (or near to as required). It'd be fun to see fights designed around tanks with high wards (sorc), tanks helping heal seperated team mates (warden/templar), tanks needing to frequently heal themselves to stave off a million bug bite style attacks (nb), or even tanks fights where what matters is delaying the enemy (sorc, ice staves) not unlike the darkness section of velidreth.

Importance of crowd control

Right now, trash pack maintenance is the hallmark of a good tank. I'd like to see mechanics that temporarily make bosses vulnerable to debilitating effects. Ie, perhaps when you block a boss' heavy attack, they are vulnerable to hard CC disabling effects like fossilize, rune cage, or reverb bash for a time. The effects can be greatly reduced, say the boss breaks free after 2 seconds no matter the stun. This rewards skillful play in that you can buy your team time to heal and reposition, as well as catch up on dps by being active instead of just blocking and taunting.

As soon as I hit post I'll remember something or see grammar/spelling errors, so expect an edit xD

BejaProphet · July 2018

josiahva wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

Hey guys
Lately there was that discussion about tanks not liking to mainly being responsible for debuffing enemies/buffing the group. Tanks surely want to be useful in one way or another and I bet some tanks would get bored, if they only would have to taunt and hold the boss at one position. Players are differently experienced, so that one player may be very stressed by only taunting and surviving as a tank, meanwhile others play the buff ***, because there is just nothing else to do between taunting, evading damage and healing up.
So now for my question please just once forget about maximal dps of your group, about healing or the stable position of the boss. What kind of game or boss mechanics would make playing a tank exciting. Would you love to gather orbs or shards, which prevents you from being one-shotted? Would you like to have some tactical positioning of the boss, changes of fight places due to getting buffs or debuffs depending where the boss is placed? Maybe also constant change of places to even be able to do damage to the boss or preventing him from gaining additional mechanics when staying too long at one place? Or maybe some kind of task for the tanks like transporting an item from one place to another while tanking? It also could be sacrificing a lot of health for your group members by activating important synergies, which otherwise would kill your group when not activated (naturally it would kill everyone else but the tank when activating).
So what would make it more fun for YOU to play a tank?

There is plenty for any competent tank to do between holding aggro on enemies. As an example...here are a couple examples:

Typical Mob Fight:
1. The first thing I do is aggro the mob...I used to use Caltrops for this...but I have replaced that with time-stop which is more effective(though less DPS, not that that matters since my tank doesnt do enough to matter anyway).
2. While enemies are slowed and stopped, I then run around taunting all the things reasonably close.
3. After taunting everything close, I use chains to pull in stragglers and taunt them
4. I then use Talons to root whatever I can catch...this tends to prevent the ranged enemies from running off(though not always...if they do, I wait for their CC immunity to expire and chains them back in)
5. I will now take the time to cast igneous shield and bone shield, and chances are Imperium has also procced
6. If its a particularly deadly mob like some in vFH or vBF I will pop barrier to help the group survivability
7. By this time, the mob is usually dead, if not I will rinse and repeat a few of these things and maybe add in a buff like igneous weapons

Note: During this entire fight, chances are I haven't bothered to block even once unless there is some deadly enemy in the mob.

Typical Boss fight:(this changes depending on boss of course).

1. Taunt the boss and any dangerous enemies around(which ones I taunt depend on the particular fight, but will often grab them all)
2. Pop Warhorn(Sometimes Barrier instead if I feel that group survival or personal survival is higher priority).
3. Cast Igneous Weapons
4. Cast Circle of protection to gain minor protection, buff stam regen and reduce roll dodge cost.(Assuming boss allows me to stay still long enough to benefit anyway)
5. Cast Igneous shield and Bone Shield to shield the group(and hope the DPS or healer is close enough and has the presence of mind to use the synergy)
6. Imperium has usually procced again and the group averages about 20k in shields at this point, and if there are melee DPS they can stand close enough to take advantage of my circle of protection and hit the spinal surge synergy from bone shield.
7. Before entering the fight I have usually swapped out time-stop for meditation and because of the major protection passive I am only bothering to block things that will knock me out of meditation or things that are actually dangerous to a tank with 20k+ shields up all the time.

Anyway, the point is that this makes for a very active tanking style that never leaves me bored. I dont have a set rotation by any means, and the skills I am using are constantly changing depending on the particular content and boss(For instance, if fighting Chudan or Thorvukin or the last boss of vFH I have wings in my flex slot instead of one of the psijiic skills). If I am not doing anything else, with all the shields and other mitigation I am often able to rez in places no one else can(last 15% of the treeminder in vROM as an example) so there is always something for me to do. I couldnt play a tank if I tanked like I have seen other people do...taunt, buff and perma-block...what a terrible boring way to tank(though it is required for a few bosses, its a tanking style I do not enjoy).

Loved reading this. We do some things differently but with the same active tanking concept behind it. This is what several people in this thread have been trying to say. You can't do what you just described and be bored. You might find it frustrating, you might find it to be a role you don't enjoy, but its not boring.

ZeroXFF · July 2018

Guppet wrote: »

The sets I’ve mentioned will give you plenty of stamina or magica. You also don’t really need all your stats in health. I don’t l know about trials, but for everything else you can go full Stam or full magica with your attributes and still hit 35k health when in your tank gear, which is all you need if your good with mechanics. You could put 10-20 in health just while your learning mechanics if you like a bit of a cushion.

As for anyone complaining about needing extra gear to do dps, you can’t be any sort of decent tank. I have 4 or 5 tanking sets that I can switch between, having different sets is part of being an effective tank. Add in being able to switch up monster sets depending on how you feel and you should have half full bags, just with tank gear. Adding in one dps set is nothing.

Yes, because everyone starts at CP1000, knows exactly how to make a competent hybrid build and knows how to play multiple roles while also having 350 skill points to put in 3 weapon skill lines without having done any quests before. -_-

You're still missing the point. Of course it's possible to have fancy hybrid setups and even a full on DPS setup on a char with tank CPs and attributes, but it is not a reasonable expectation to have for overland content, because that content is meant to be done by everyone starting at lvl3. If tanks can't comfortably do content meant for lvl3 players, something needs to be changed.

Guppet · July 2018

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

The sets I’ve mentioned will give you plenty of stamina or magica. You also don’t really need all your stats in health. I don’t l know about trials, but for everything else you can go full Stam or full magica with your attributes and still hit 35k health when in your tank gear, which is all you need if your good with mechanics. You could put 10-20 in health just while your learning mechanics if you like a bit of a cushion.

As for anyone complaining about needing extra gear to do dps, you can’t be any sort of decent tank. I have 4 or 5 tanking sets that I can switch between, having different sets is part of being an effective tank. Add in being able to switch up monster sets depending on how you feel and you should have half full bags, just with tank gear. Adding in one dps set is nothing.

Yes, because everyone starts at CP1000, knows exactly how to make a competent hybrid build and knows how to play multiple roles while also having 350 skill points to put in 3 weapon skill lines without having done any quests before. -_-

You're still missing the point. Of course it's possible to have fancy hybrid setups and even a full on DPS setup on a char with tank CPs and attributes, but it is not a reasonable expectation to have for overland content, because that content is meant to be done by everyone starting at lvl3. If tanks can't comfortably do content meant for lvl3 players, something needs to be changed.

You missing the point when you are only a tank in groups. If you focus on tanking, your focusing on stuff hitting you while someone else kills it.

Obviously when solo it’s going to take longer to kill stuff, it’s like saying the grass is too green.

You can’t ask for dps on a build that’s made to out survive stuff. You can still complete all content it will just take longer.

Nocturnal_Annoyance · July 2018

I loooooove being a tank. It's my eso calling. Even during the easy tank and spank fights. Though i thoroughly enjoy hard fights as well. Lately I've been really enjoying tanking vet fang, especially the menagerie boss. I never get bored being a tank, the squishy members in my group depend on me ^_^

ZeroXFF · July 2018

Guppet wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

The sets I’ve mentioned will give you plenty of stamina or magica. You also don’t really need all your stats in health. I don’t l know about trials, but for everything else you can go full Stam or full magica with your attributes and still hit 35k health when in your tank gear, which is all you need if your good with mechanics. You could put 10-20 in health just while your learning mechanics if you like a bit of a cushion.

As for anyone complaining about needing extra gear to do dps, you can’t be any sort of decent tank. I have 4 or 5 tanking sets that I can switch between, having different sets is part of being an effective tank. Add in being able to switch up monster sets depending on how you feel and you should have half full bags, just with tank gear. Adding in one dps set is nothing.

Yes, because everyone starts at CP1000, knows exactly how to make a competent hybrid build and knows how to play multiple roles while also having 350 skill points to put in 3 weapon skill lines without having done any quests before. -_-

You're still missing the point. Of course it's possible to have fancy hybrid setups and even a full on DPS setup on a char with tank CPs and attributes, but it is not a reasonable expectation to have for overland content, because that content is meant to be done by everyone starting at lvl3. If tanks can't comfortably do content meant for lvl3 players, something needs to be changed.

You missing the point when you are only a tank in groups. If you focus on tanking, your focusing on stuff hitting you while someone else kills it.

Obviously when solo it’s going to take longer to kill stuff, it’s like saying the grass is too green.

You can’t ask for dps on a build that’s made to out survive stuff. You can still complete all content it will just take longer.

It doesn't just take longer, it takes so long that you might as well go watch paint dry. I'm not asking for 40k DPS, but just enough to still have fun doing it. 2k DPS is not fun.

umagon · July 2018

I find pve tanking in eso boring mainly due to the taut and hold block mechanics. In another game I played tanks where power houses of agro and damage. Staying alive was more about maintaining the defensive skills up on the player’s attack rotation. In the game you could tank with a two hander weapon because of this. Which was the tank’s “dps” weapon. There were different stances, in defensive stance you can tank, but during parts of the fight if you knew what you where doing you could mid-fight flip to the offense stance and do damage. Also, with the two hander you could knock back groups enemies and charge enemies.

You would basically charge into a mass of enemies knock them down with the knock back then start the defense rotation which pulled a lot of hate. Once the dps engaged and your defense buffs were up you would flip over to dps mode for one or two combo rotations. This was really satisfying from an action combat standpoint because as a tank you were a raging tempest of destruction and crowd control. The only down side was tanks could not heal themselves, so mistakes would cost you.

Buffing the group was the healer’s role, and debuffs where dps’s role. Tanks where mostly crowd control. I wouldn’t expect eso to function exactly the same but tanking in that game was one the more funnier experiences I have had.