My group usually doesn’t zerg down solos. We have a “no chasing squirrels” policy, that we break only for the purposes of getting revenge on people who have zerged us down while we’re solo. That being said, if you go into a keep, resource, or milegate that we’re in, you’re fair game no matter what, because it’s hard for us to differentiate friend from foe at that point. If you see us coming and want to indicate that you won’t zerg us down, wear a small scale or solo tabbard and stay mounted.

Our attempts to not zerg people down have gained us quite a bit of good will and we’re rarely “AJ’d” by other small scale groups while we’re stringing out a zerg. Even some large scale groups like LoM (who also small scale) leave us be when they see us fighting in a tower.

It’s all about the tabbard. If you show respect to others, even when they haven’t done so to you, eventually your karma will come back around. (Also I tell everyone in SA to take the tabbard off when they’re solo lol)

While 40:4 and 4:1 are different ratios and not in the same league, I agree with the general principle. But there would be more mutual respect between PvPers if more people could just accept that there are a variety of skill levels, play styles, and other factors in PvP. So do your part by just playing the game without any extra noise (teabags, salt whispers, etc) Most of us can improve on this point. I'm not saying don't /tell people, I have pleasant exchanges with opponents all the time. And believe it or not having a conversation that is critical of playstyles without being toxic is also possible.

For an example of good form in PvP there is a certain Grand Overlord "sniper" who I've gone back and forth with countless times. Usually, eventually, he sets up an ambush for me with 3 other NB's and I die to multiple back-to-back toxic barrages in an open field. I mean it's like the end of Hero. I accept I should have seen it coming, picked the terrain better, etc. He emotes over my corpse playfully, no hate tells or teabags even though I just wiped him and his buddies several times. Truly an honorable opponent (after the fight anyway ) and I enjoy those fights.

Kinda like touchdown celebrations. It's classier imo to act like you've been there before, just toss the ref the ball, and jog back to the huddle/sideline. Salt whisperers remind me of the Italian and Mexican national football (soccer) teams faking injuries and acting outrageously when things don't go their way. Those Italian car commercials about "emotion meets engineering" are so spot on

Even respectful people have a threshold tho. I want to have a good community with an steady stream of new players in PvP. But there are a select few who I will chase to the ends of the earth, zerg without mercy, and ruin every fight I see them in (and wouldn't mind if they left the game). "Kys" is something that, when I see, you are instantly put into a category of irredeemable POS. You will be hunted. So there are lots of factors at work into the mentality of the PvP community, some solvable, some not so much.

From someone who really started to drift away from the game back during TG and DB, I don't really get the complaints that the game is stacked so heavily toward larger groups at the moment. Destro ult has been toned down significantly and there are now plenty of viable options on the table for groups of various classes to take 4-5 people and fight +20. No AoE caps for damage while the 6 man cap for healing persists, even though that wasn't\isn't as much of a problem as people think. Solo is another matter entirely, but I would argue that main problem is shared between both playstyles.

Right now I find that it's difficult to get the scale of fights that your looking for everyone in pretty much every setting. For solo maybe you want 3-5 players that aren't completely incompetent while in a 5 man group you want a 24 man pug or 8-15 players that have some clue what they're doing depending on how decent they are. The problem isn't the balance between the scenarios, as in can group X counter bigger group Y, but that group X struggles to get fights of that scale consistently. When you're solo and get hunted down by +10 players or when you're in a 4-5 man group you regularly have two full groups end up on top of you. These are odds that I think most people would concede should almost certainly fall in favor of the zerg the majority of the time, with the possibility of pulling a miracle off every now and then. This is really part of the essence\fun of an open world PvP setting, sometimes you bite off more than you can chew and end up pulling off a crazy win or dying horribly, that's just how it is. In my mind the real question that ZOS needs to answer is what changes can they make to make it easier to find fights of a reasonable scale in Cyrodiil more reliably, rather than making it easier to take 5 people and wipe 50.

On that end they really need to rethink the way players are incentivized to act\play in Cyrodiil, specifically how drastically inflated the AP players get when they both taking and defending a keep successfully, ie win. For an average players\group, when putting up a good fight against an even opponent but loosing rewards you with nothing but a measly amount of AP and an unwanted horse ride while winning nets you what's probably around +10x they ap you would get for loosing along with the general feeling of winning, they will choose the option that maximizes wins and limits the chances of loosing. Considering most players in Cyrodiil, certainly those playing the map, are of a similar skill level this means the best way to ensure you get the best result possible is only fight when you outnumber someone enough that you know you'll probably win. If ZOS for example would actually incentivize players that aren't in the elite portion of the player base to actually look for fights that are semi challenges (for them) through things like AP\tick changes.

Additionally it wouldn't hurt for them to give the patriots of the three alliances reasons to actually think, "We can't port up to Arrius and zerg those 5 guys at the mine, we're about to steal a scroll!" I miss the days when someone popping a gate and going for a scroll was an event of potential dethrone level interest for both of the alliances involved rather a quick trot to pick up a nearly undefended scroll or a quick siege on a keep that was only taken by a single group for the O-tick. Giving larger groups something to go after besides AP and small scallers they have beef with would do wonders to open up new opportunities for fights for everyone.

I don't think they need to full handicap groups to encourage other forms of play. However, they need to remove some of the free buffs that groups get just because they are groups.

Certain sets that are too strong, but aren't worth running on normal builds because they are so niche, shieldbreaker, sloads etc, need changing

AoE effect cap: There is still a cap on effects given by AoE abilities, ususally 6, for example shooting star's ult return, talons/encase's root, draw essences's mag return, proxy has a different cap, of 10, but if you are against that many it should not have a cap at all.

Smart healing: No, this shoudn't exist. It makes large survival too easy, getting free heals, mutagens and wards from people who aren't thinking. You should have to target people for this in PvP. No matter the size. If you have a flood of teammates in front of you and it goes to the wrong one, too bad.

ItsNebula wrote: »

So we all know that since zergs like to chase 1-4 people from Daggerfall to Ebonheart, with 40+ people. Its stupid, but they do it. They have LOADS of damage because.. well... lots of people.

Proposing and idea to help us solo players / small scallers, and so that solo/small scale wont die off, as it slowly is.

In game mechanic is, 5+ people is considered a LARGE group. Whether you agree or not, it is. So, i was figuring, -1% damage done for every player past 4 players (Cyro only). So if youre in a 24 man group, everyone in it will lose a total of 20% damage done. To me, this seems fair, as you got literally 23 other people to rely on for damage. Imho, this will start to revive solo and small scale play.

I understand people might say "Then people just wont start grouping" and then thats fine, if they cant group, itll be easier to lose the zerg, since the zerglings wont see a crown to follow.
And sure, the small scallers that run the 5-6 man groups will get a reduction, but itll only be 1-2% which is nothing.
This is to affect the zergs, while also benefiting small scallers. Also promoting small scale, as rewarding them with no damage reduction if they run in a group of 4 or less.

Let me know of your thoughts on this.

Edit; Better title

So we create three men groups go into guild chat and zerg with out the over 4 man NERF ... Already being exploited ... My advice, play battle grounds

I don't get what the 'small-scalers' actually want.. in my experience, they don't fight each other - so are they there to fight large groups? Seems not - hence the complaints of being chased by them.

So are they there to zerg down soloers/randoms/ungrouped as they appear one by one? Well, that's my experience.

No, these guys need nothing. Outnumbered - complain, Outnumbering - fine.

ItsNebula wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

I don't think they need to full handicap groups to encourage other forms of play. However, they need to remove some of the free buffs that groups get just because they are groups.

Certain sets that are too strong, but aren't worth running on normal builds because they are so niche, shieldbreaker, sloads etc, need changing

AoE effect cap: There is still a cap on effects given by AoE abilities, ususally 6, for example shooting star's ult return, talons/encase's root, draw essences's mag return, proxy has a different cap, of 10, but if you are against that many it should not have a cap at all.

Smart healing: No, this shoudn't exist. It makes large survival too easy, getting free heals, mutagens and wards from people who aren't thinking. You should have to target people for this in PvP. No matter the size. If you have a flood of teammates in front of you and it goes to the wrong one, too bad.

LarsS wrote: »

ItsNebula wrote: »

So we all know that since zergs like to chase 1-4 people from Daggerfall to Ebonheart, with 40+ people. Its stupid, but they do it. They have LOADS of damage because.. well... lots of people.

Proposing and idea to help us solo players / small scallers, and so that solo/small scale wont die off, as it slowly is.

In game mechanic is, 5+ people is considered a LARGE group. Whether you agree or not, it is. So, i was figuring, -1% damage done for every player past 4 players (Cyro only). So if youre in a 24 man group, everyone in it will lose a total of 20% damage done. To me, this seems fair, as you got literally 23 other people to rely on for damage. Imho, this will start to revive solo and small scale play.

I understand people might say "Then people just wont start grouping" and then thats fine, if they cant group, itll be easier to lose the zerg, since the zerglings wont see a crown to follow.
And sure, the small scallers that run the 5-6 man groups will get a reduction, but itll only be 1-2% which is nothing.
This is to affect the zergs, while also benefiting small scallers. Also promoting small scale, as rewarding them with no damage reduction if they run in a group of 4 or less.

Let me know of your thoughts on this.

Edit; Better title

No guild group I know of would chase smalscalers in the way you describe it, not worth the AP. The only time you may be hunted by a guildgroup is if you are stupid enough to attack someone in the guildgroup. On the other hand if you attack a zerg were most even arent grouped yes then you may be hunted over the map. To sum up your proposals dont work.

Let me give you some examples of guilds on PC NA that will 40v1 a single player from Daggerfall to Ebonheart...

TD, Queens Ram, Kush, Vae Victic, BOD, DD, EPHS, IL... must i continue to name guilds off?

Is that one player getting zerged down some random newbie or random PVPer innocently minding their own business?

Or is that one player someone who attacked those guild's players or who has a history with that guild's leaders?

I can't speak for all those guild's you named, but I know which one I see happen more often. 1 player isn't worth much AP, so most raids I know won't stop to kill 1 random player innocently minding their own business. When a full raid does stop, hunt, and chase a single player, there's usually a reason for it beyond merely killing 1 random player in their path, like that player tried to "gank and run" one of the guild's members

BohnT wrote: »

LarsS wrote: »

ItsNebula wrote: »

So we all know that since zergs like to chase 1-4 people from Daggerfall to Ebonheart, with 40+ people. Its stupid, but they do it. They have LOADS of damage because.. well... lots of people.

Proposing and idea to help us solo players / small scallers, and so that solo/small scale wont die off, as it slowly is.

In game mechanic is, 5+ people is considered a LARGE group. Whether you agree or not, it is. So, i was figuring, -1% damage done for every player past 4 players (Cyro only). So if youre in a 24 man group, everyone in it will lose a total of 20% damage done. To me, this seems fair, as you got literally 23 other people to rely on for damage. Imho, this will start to revive solo and small scale play.

I understand people might say "Then people just wont start grouping" and then thats fine, if they cant group, itll be easier to lose the zerg, since the zerglings wont see a crown to follow.
And sure, the small scallers that run the 5-6 man groups will get a reduction, but itll only be 1-2% which is nothing.
This is to affect the zergs, while also benefiting small scallers. Also promoting small scale, as rewarding them with no damage reduction if they run in a group of 4 or less.

Let me know of your thoughts on this.

Edit; Better title

No guild group I know of would chase smalscalers in the way you describe it, not worth the AP. The only time you may be hunted by a guildgroup is if you are stupid enough to attack someone in the guildgroup. On the other hand if you attack a zerg were most even arent grouped yes then you may be hunted over the map. To sum up your proposals dont work.

Well i didn't know you don't even know what you and your group do any day or any other DC guild for that matter.
Same for EP and AD guilds, i haven't encountered one single guild that didn't went full tryhard at least once a week when i met them.

I know what we are doing. Hunting lets say 3 players with 16 give hardly any AP, but if those smalscalers insists on trying to attack us of course we hit back. Try to understand, a ball group is buildt to take down at least 2-3 times their numbers not to hunt smallscalers.

ItsNebula wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

ItsNebula wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

I don't think they need to full handicap groups to encourage other forms of play. However, they need to remove some of the free buffs that groups get just because they are groups.

Certain sets that are too strong, but aren't worth running on normal builds because they are so niche, shieldbreaker, sloads etc, need changing

AoE effect cap: There is still a cap on effects given by AoE abilities, ususally 6, for example shooting star's ult return, talons/encase's root, draw essences's mag return, proxy has a different cap, of 10, but if you are against that many it should not have a cap at all.

Smart healing: No, this shoudn't exist. It makes large survival too easy, getting free heals, mutagens and wards from people who aren't thinking. You should have to target people for this in PvP. No matter the size. If you have a flood of teammates in front of you and it goes to the wrong one, too bad.

LarsS wrote: »

ItsNebula wrote: »

So we all know that since zergs like to chase 1-4 people from Daggerfall to Ebonheart, with 40+ people. Its stupid, but they do it. They have LOADS of damage because.. well... lots of people.

Proposing and idea to help us solo players / small scallers, and so that solo/small scale wont die off, as it slowly is.

In game mechanic is, 5+ people is considered a LARGE group. Whether you agree or not, it is. So, i was figuring, -1% damage done for every player past 4 players (Cyro only). So if youre in a 24 man group, everyone in it will lose a total of 20% damage done. To me, this seems fair, as you got literally 23 other people to rely on for damage. Imho, this will start to revive solo and small scale play.

I understand people might say "Then people just wont start grouping" and then thats fine, if they cant group, itll be easier to lose the zerg, since the zerglings wont see a crown to follow.
And sure, the small scallers that run the 5-6 man groups will get a reduction, but itll only be 1-2% which is nothing.
This is to affect the zergs, while also benefiting small scallers. Also promoting small scale, as rewarding them with no damage reduction if they run in a group of 4 or less.

Let me know of your thoughts on this.

Edit; Better title

No guild group I know of would chase smalscalers in the way you describe it, not worth the AP. The only time you may be hunted by a guildgroup is if you are stupid enough to attack someone in the guildgroup. On the other hand if you attack a zerg were most even arent grouped yes then you may be hunted over the map. To sum up your proposals dont work.

Let me give you some examples of guilds on PC NA that will 40v1 a single player from Daggerfall to Ebonheart...

TD, Queens Ram, Kush, Vae Victic, BOD, DD, EPHS, IL... must i continue to name guilds off?

Is that one player getting zerged down some random newbie or random PVPer innocently minding their own business?

Or is that one player someone who attacked those guild's players or who has a history with that guild's leaders?

I can't speak for all those guild's you named, but I know which one I see happen more often. 1 player isn't worth much AP, so most raids I know won't stop to kill 1 random player innocently minding their own business. When a full raid does stop, hunt, and chase a single player, there's usually a reason for it beyond merely killing 1 random player in their path, like that player tried to "gank and run" one of the guild's members

All of those guilds will chase no matter what.
But chasing isn’t the point of this forum, we love being chased, makes it even funnier when they chase us for 10 mins, sometimes on mount too only to wipe and get sweeped.

The whole point of this post is to give out ideas, or start to... to help promote small scale PvP, and to help bring back some of the old players that quite.
Reducing the damage by 1% for every player past 4, is an idea, and it won’t affect zergs much.. hell, lag doesn’t affect zergs because they have a whole wagon of others to rely on.. and if ZOS isn’t capable of fixing the lag in PvP, then there needs to be some form of way to reduce the dmg, or healing taken / done in zergs, since Zerg can cast an easy 20+ skills on one dude in the amount of time it takes for the one dude to even have the animation of his skill to begin

Funny you want to make it harder to kill you and now you say that you like to be chased and win all the times. In that case I would ask zos to buf the zergs, to make the game more interesting.

Datthaw wrote: »

This is coming from someone who solos, small groups and zergs

The 1vx/small group mentality is just as unhealthy as people claim zergs are. That type of community becomes very toxic and very cliqueish just look at shor pc na. That campaign was policed hard by its regulars, shaming players and guilds who played in ways they didn't approve of. How is shor now? Dead.

Cyro needs zergs to keep new players and casual players interested. 1vX and small group players need to drop the idea that they should be able to kill large groups just because they are better than the individual players in said group. You shouldn't be able to kill 20 players with your group of four just because your build is min maxed. Youre gonna need to change the way you fight, use the enviroment more. Which leads me to my other point, games been out for a while groups have gotten better and stick together more. It's alot harder to kite and string the zerg out.

And finally to all the 1vx players out there. Stop complaining about being zerged down. You want to fight out numbered...post videos claiming 1vx greatness when you win...and cry zerg when you lose. I'm sorry but you can't have your cake and eat it too.

I think a lot of the solo players are more mad at the game mechanics than the actual zerg itself and sometimes we just misplace blame. I will rarely get angry if I'm out numbered and lose a good fight were I can fight back and have control over my character. I do however sometimes get upset when I fight a group and they are constantly rooting and snaring me to the point where I can't even reposition. Alot of Xv1ers are realizing that if they just root and range you that it's hard for the solo player to fight back. This makes gameplay for solo players not satisfying at times. I don't mind being zerged down but I hate not being able to move and that's what happens most of the time when you are zerged down

How about we add tons of new incentives, rewards, campaign objectives, etc to imperial city and limit the group size to like 8-12 players, AND make it a queable instance. Ez small scale all day.